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A Modest Proposal To Solve The So-Called "Admiral Problem"

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  • unangbangkayunangbangkay Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    That can't be that hard.

    Though my point is it's harder than simply going through a text file or excel spreadsheet or whatever and pressing Ctrl+H: Find "<PlayerRank>, Replace With: Captain.

    Like I've been saying, my solution requires absolutely nothing "new" be added to the game. "New" takes time, effort, and meetings. "Tweaks" require less of those.

    Though it would be great if new things could be added whenever we like, we all know this kind of thing is so low on the priority list that Cryptic is unlikely to address it anytime soon. Which is why my proposal is modest and largely effort-free, so they could think about it.

    Heck, I'd do it for free if they'd let me.
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Though my point is it's harder than simply going through a text file or excel spreadsheet or whatever and pressing Ctrl+H: Find "<PlayerRank>, Replace With: Captain.

    Like I've been saying, my solution requires absolutely nothing "new" be added to the game. "New" takes time, effort, and meetings. "Tweaks" require less of those.

    Though it would be great if new things could be added whenever we like, we all know this kind of thing is so low on the priority list that Cryptic is unlikely to address it anytime soon. Which is why my proposal is modest and largely effort-free, so they could think about it.

    Heck, I'd do it for free if they'd let me.

    Well, admiditly that would be easier and from my perspective a "better then nothing fix", but would ultimately half assed.

    While, according to O'Brien in ds9 the commanding officer is always called "captain", no matter what his actual rank is, by his crew, that doesnt apply to people outside your crew. And even that was obviously not the case during the TOS movies.

    Also what about the romulans? They do not even seem to have that rank.

    So, just changing the script to always say "Captain" would be an easy fix, but adding the customizable rank would not be THAT MICH more work and it would solve the issue once and for all.
    That tab could include all ranks, including Admiral for those who (seemingly have to compensate something and) want to keep that rank, and also some other titles.
    I'm sure some like role playing as Ambassador, for example, and I think titles like that would fit, too.

    Ultimaltly I'd want that level= rank connection to away all together. It even bothers me on the login screen...
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Without further ado, here it is:
    Let's just look over all the mission text in the game that refers to the player's rank (probably using the <PlayerRank> dialog tags like in the Foundry, and change it to say "Captain" (or "Commander" in the case of Romulan characters).

    That's it. It's very simple, and could probably be done by an unpaid intern in a couple of weeks during a lull period between seasons.

    ship crews in ships call their admirals and generals "captain" anyways, so i fail to see how this is a new suggestion. romulan rank on a ship is different, their actual rank is used instead of "commander".
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  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    We should have had a system where rank and level were handled separately.

    Couldn't agree more.
    Look at Captain Janeway, for example. She was a scientist more than anything else, yet she wore the red uniform. She wasn't a tactical officer. In the strictest sense, had she existed in STO, she would have worn a blue uniform with four full rank pips: Science Officer, Captain rank.

    Oncreen red did not equal tactical officer.
    In fact those wore Gold like Enginiers. Only Worf in Nemesis and in the end of Season 1 TNG wore red as tactical officer.

    Other then that.... I personally still think Rank should have vanity function ONLY.
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Though my point is it's harder than simply going through a text file or excel spreadsheet or whatever and pressing Ctrl+H: Find "<PlayerRank>, Replace With: Captain.

    Like I've been saying, my solution requires absolutely nothing "new" be added to the game. "New" takes time, effort, and meetings. "Tweaks" require less of those.

    Though it would be great if new things could be added whenever we like, we all know this kind of thing is so low on the priority list that Cryptic is unlikely to address it anytime soon. Which is why my proposal is modest and largely effort-free, so they could think about it.

    Heck, I'd do it for free if they'd let me.

    It may be simpler, but could still amount to a large amount of work (there is a lot of text to go through). Changing the nature of display ranks might actually be easier to do (if more complicated).
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    capnmanx wrote: »
    It may be simpler, but could still amount to a large amount of work (there is a lot of text to go through). Changing the nature of display ranks might actually be easier to do (if more complicated).

    You do not get the concept of a script don't you?
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Though my point is it's harder than simply going through a text file or excel spreadsheet or whatever and pressing Ctrl+H: Find "<PlayerRank>, Replace With: Captain.

    Like I've been saying, my solution requires absolutely nothing "new" be added to the game. "New" takes time, effort, and meetings. "Tweaks" require less of those.

    Though it would be great if new things could be added whenever we like, we all know this kind of thing is so low on the priority list that Cryptic is unlikely to address it anytime soon. Which is why my proposal is modest and largely effort-free, so they could think about it.

    Heck, I'd do it for free if they'd let me.

    There is the quick way to do things and the right way to do things. This change needs to be done the right way and that means people being able to select their rank. Also, it might be the quick way if they use the PlayerRank variable. There wouldn't be a need to replace every instance of PlayerRank just implement a method for us to change our rank.

    Of course, we have no idea how their systems work so something might seem incredibly simple to fix is actually far more difficult. So replacing every instance of PlayerRank with Captain could cause numerous bugs to occur like not being able to equip anything above Captain for level 50 characters.
  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    You do not get the concept of a script don't you?

    Several years ago, that was mentioned by one of the devs as one of the reasons they did not want to replace references to rank with titles; so I have to assume that it may not be as simple as that.
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    capnmanx wrote: »
    Several years ago, that was mentioned by one of the devs as one of the reasons they did not want to replace references to rank with titles; so I have to assume that it may not be as simple as that.

    :rolleyes: Not everything a devs says is automatically true.
    Pretty much everyone capable of thinking by himself called bull***t on that for that very reason back then. And this still counts.
    It is that easy, and they don't want to change it. Thats pretty much the whole story not matter what a dev says, it is simply obvious.
  • shevetshevet Member Posts: 1,667 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    capnmanx wrote: »
    The Dyson sphere ground battlezone: Admirals getting called up to fight on the front lines in a ground war, with only two people selected from their ship's senior staff to protect them?
    Clearly this is Starfleet's solution to the Admiral Problem: get all the unnecessary Vice Admirals shot by dinosaurs.

    (I'd like to see the character levels decoupled from the military rank thing. I doubt that it's anyone's high priority, though.)
    8b6YIel.png?1
  • daan2006daan2006 Member Posts: 5,346 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    How about they just give us an option box under "Edit Record" where we can set our preferred rank, much like setting our Titles, which would be used in all dialogue. I'd like this option for BOFFs, too.

    this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and ask for the Problem only one if you cant get your head over this not a sim its not real life its not real starfleet and to be frank love to see some fan boy tell a Gen or Admiral what they can or can not do see you dont end up doing 1000 push ups or even better put you fan boy butt in the brig
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    macronius wrote: »
    This! Their ability to outdo their own failures is quite impressive. If only this power could be harnessed for good.
  • unangbangkayunangbangkay Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    starkaos wrote: »
    There is the quick way to do things and the right way to do things. This change needs to be done the right way and that means people being able to select their r.

    I'd prefer the quick way because from all evidence the right way isn't going to happen. Assuming it really is as simple as I think it is (admittedly I may be falling into the trap of "armchair development" here), this might be the only way to get any kind of solution into the pipeline.

    Honestly, this is such a minor issue that it may never get addressed if we continue to insist that there's only one possible solution, one that insists that Cryptic put in more time and effort than they clearly feel is necessary. If it was worth their time to "do it right" (according to some forumite's suggestions), they'd have done it already. And yet four years later I'm being called "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" like I was suffering amnesia.

    I'm just making a modest proposal that respects the devs' limited time, attention, and resources. It may be "quick and dirty" by some standards, but as I've detailed, it works, and is better than nothing, which is what we've gotten so far.
  • rahmkota19rahmkota19 Member Posts: 1,929 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    This idea is logical, makes sense, can be implemented in a few days by a single Dev (I know I could, assuming dialog works the same as in the Foundry), and not controversial.

    However, the Set your own Rank idea is something I like even better.

    So /signed for both ideas.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I'd prefer the quick way because from all evidence the right way isn't going to happen. Assuming it really is as simple as I think it is (admittedly I may be falling into the trap of "armchair development" here), this might be the only way to get any kind of solution into the pipeline.

    Honestly, this is such a minor issue that it may never get addressed if we continue to insist that there's only one possible solution, one that insists that Cryptic put in more time and effort than they clearly feel is necessary. If it was worth their time to "do it right" (according to some forumite's suggestions), they'd have done it already. And yet four years later I'm being called "Rear Admiral, Lower Half" like I was suffering amnesia.

    I'm just making a modest proposal that respects the devs' limited time, attention, and resources. It may be "quick and dirty" by some standards, but as I've detailed, it works, and is better than nothing, which is what we've gotten so far.

    Your quick way will cause some people to be extremely angry. Even if everything works properly and causes no bugs like not able to slot Mk XII equipment, some players like to be a Vice Admiral and won't accept any form of demotion. Being able to customize your rank is the only acceptable method that will not have some players screaming at Cryptic.
  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,358 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    anodynes wrote: »
    So, going by your title, eating Irish babies will solve the Admiral Problem.

    Somebody was going to say it.

    No, first we prmote the babies to be VAs then we eat them. 2 birds 1 stone.
    Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member, Star Trek Online Moderator Posts: 58,586 Community Moderator
    edited April 2014
    What problem? People CHOOSE to show VA on their uniforms. I happen to prefer showing Captain. Its the GAME that sees you as a VA. You can see yourself as a Captain if you want. The only problem I see is everyone choosing to run around with VA pips all the time.

    Don't want to be a VA? Just go to the Tailor and give yourself Captain's pips. *shrug* Wanting to redo the entire rank structure, which has been a Game Mechanic since Day One, seems like overkill for something so minor.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
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  • capnmanxcapnmanx Member Posts: 1,452 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    rattler2 wrote: »
    What problem? People CHOOSE to show VA on their uniforms. I happen to prefer showing Captain. Its the GAME that sees you as a VA. You can see yourself as a Captain if you want. The only problem I see is everyone choosing to run around with VA pips all the time.

    Don't want to be a VA? Just go to the Tailor and give yourself Captain's pips. *shrug* Wanting to redo the entire rank structure, which has been a Game Mechanic since Day One, seems like overkill for something so minor.

    Who even notices a character's pips? How much time does anyone spend admiring their own?

    Being able to give myself Captain's rank insignia, or set my title to 'Captain' doesn't actually help me at all; it just leaves other people the impression that I'm an RPer or something. The main HUD has 'Vice Admiral' stamped on it in the corner, and NPC's keep addressing me by the same. It takes an awful lot of wilful denial to completely overlook that; certainly more than I have.
  • stardestroyer001stardestroyer001 Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I thought the Romulan equivalent of a Captain was a subcommander? In lore, anyway.
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  • vilecalamitousvilecalamitous Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I thought the Romulan equivalent of a Captain was a subcommander? In lore, anyway.

    No, Commander is.. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Romulan_ranks
  • stardestroyer001stardestroyer001 Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
    edited April 2014

    Gotcha, thanks.
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  • sonnikkusonnikku Member Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Everyone should just be captains.

    Except for me, I'm the Supreme Mega Space Pimp Admiral Overlord.
  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,326 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    greyhame3 wrote: »
    First thing to remember is that the story in this games doesn't treat your character like they are one out of a thousand, but one if a few elite. So in the start, there are not a large number if Admirals running around.

    As for the suggestion it self, technically anyone in charge of a ship is called Captain so that would work.

    Unfortunately people tend to ignore this fact.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    I thought the Romulan equivalent of a Captain was a subcommander? In lore, anyway.

    IMO it's wrong to assume that a completely alien / different military even HAS exact equivalents to all ranks of "our" military.

    In fact:
    in the federation ships are commanded by captains. No commanders, no admirals. Captains.
    We saw Romulan ships beeing commanded by colonels, sub commanders, commanders and, not sure, may be even admirals.

    So romulan commander = federation captain is only the result of the attempt to force an exact equivalent.
  • doubleohninedoubleohnine Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Its funny how Cryptic was always going on about how their time is SOOOOOOO valuable, yet lately we see them spending time on things that no one asked for. Like revamping the early missions no one cares about. All to impress the noobs they say. They want the game to look better and make a better impression to noobs. Ok. But dont you think once the noob has his toon at Admiral in a month, but doesnt WANT to be called an admiral, you dont think THAT is a bad early impression on the devs running the game? To a noob that would seem like such a no brainer and easy fix. But if a noob senses the devs here are incompetent, and the love of Star Trek doesnt keep them here, then off to the next MMO quicker than average.

    Gecko once said in a podcast he'd like that to get changed where it was just a dropbox where you picked the rank you wanted the NPCs to address you as. Hows that coming along Gecko? It really should be high on the list of overhaul things you are doing to the game these days.
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  • nakedcrooknakedcrook Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Who cares about the Admiral problem. There are bigger problems in this game than how many Admirals there are.

    What about the fact that Federation, KDF, and Romulans are commanding time ships, Dominion ships, TOS era ships, ENT era ships, Tholian ships, Ferengi ships. What about some of the hideous uniforms being worn by military officers, or the total lack of Uniforms? What about Federation ships not using Phasers? Federation ships using Borg, Dominion, Romulan, Tholian, Voth, and Breen hardware? What about pet dinosaurs on ESD? Party poppers? Disco balls? Midget women with cat ears in skimpy clothing? NONE OF THIS IS CANON!

    Yet people complain about what people call you in a convo? Really?

    If you want STO to become "Cookie cutter phaser ships and everyone dreses the same online"...please...continue down the "canon" path.

    Stop whining. If you wanna go full canon, prepare to lose 95% of the content.
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  • revandarklighterrevandarklighter Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    nakedcrook wrote: »
    Who cares about the Admiral problem. There are bigger problems in this game than how many Admirals there are.

    What about the fact that Federation, KDF, and Romulans are commanding time ships, Dominion ships, TOS era ships, ENT era ships, Tholian ships, Ferengi ships. What about some of the hideous uniforms being worn by military officers, or the total lack of Uniforms? What about Federation ships not using Phasers? Federation ships using Borg, Dominion, Romulan, Tholian, Voth, and Breen hardware? What about pet dinosaurs on ESD? Party poppers? Disco balls? Midget women with cat ears in skimpy clothing? NONE OF THIS IS CANON!

    Yet people complain about what people call you in a convo? Really?

    If you want STO to become "Cookie cutter phaser ships and everyone dreses the same online"...please...continue down the "canon" path.

    Stop whining. If you wanna go full canon, prepare to lose 95% of the content.

    Well obviously the people who post here in favor of the suggestion care.

    And while we have bigger problems you named none of them.
  • nakedcrooknakedcrook Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    Well obviously the people who post here in favor of the suggestion care.

    And while we have bigger problems you named none of them.

    Of course I didn't name any of them. All the stuff I listed is trivial...just like the rank issue.

    Thank you Captain Obvious...or should I say...Vice Admiral Obvious?
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  • oldravenman3025oldravenman3025 Member Posts: 1,892 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    There is no Admiral "problem".


    That's taking into account that your character can be whoever, or whatever, you want it to be.


    Each character is unique within their own little story world. There are, technically, not as many Admirals running around as people think. This is just another metagame pet peeve by those who RP and b***h about "immersion".


    Developer time, effort, and resources are better spent elsewhere.
  • stardestroyer001stardestroyer001 Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
    edited April 2014
    For a bunch of people who "don't care", this thread hit 60 posts just now. :)
    nakedcrook wrote:
    Of course I didn't name any of them. All the stuff I listed is trivial...just like the rank issue.

    Thank you Captain Obvious...or should I say...Vice Admiral Obvious?
    You can show a little more respect for people who didn't know you were using "humor".
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