Are really saying it should be ok for a level 50 to have 16+ rep passives while a new 50 would have zero ? That makes almost no sense.
No, I've been saying (all along): just stop with the endless new reps already.
4 reps is doable for a new toon (just being doing it myself recently, training up my alt). Much beyond that, indeed, becomes insurmountable. Don't think limiting our space powers will change that, though: the new player will still have to go thru all the rep systems, if he, or she, wants the same choices as everyone else.
Nice sidestep. My point, however, still stand: 'insurmountable' is just a form jealousy (which you then, in some rather twisted logic, interpret as 'elitism' of the other party).
Jealousy for some, maybe. But at worst, it's no more juvenile and senseless than the desire among some to remain superior for no other reason than "we got here first", resisting any idea that makes it easier for others to achieve the same things you did.
This gets in to why the comparison to real-life education is a ridiculous one. Put simply: your achievements in a video game mean little, rendering any desire to keep others down nothing more than petty and childish. There's no reason to cry foul when something you have is made easier to obtain, because you already have it. Or, in the case of the rep trait revamp, there's no reason to fear being cut down to size because the end result is no different than your stuff being made easier to get - the playing field is leveled.
At worst, both sides are being children about the whole thing. "Waah, I don't have what they have." "Waah they want what I've got." It's a game; grow up, stop crying, and let the other kids on the playground play. Why do we care so much who has what?
Jealousy for some, maybe. But at worst, it's no more juvenile and senseless than the desire among some to remain superior for no other reason than "we got here first", resisting any idea that makes it easier for others to achieve the same things you did.
Well, I don't PvP, so I don't need to feel 'superior' to anyone (except to the NPCs, maybe; but their A.I. is so lame, a wet paper would feel superior to them).
Also, don't care if others can have faster/easier access to what I have now (for one, because it would benefit a potential new alt of mine too).
I just don't like it when ppl begrudge my having climbed up the grind ladder, fair and square, only to hear them say that goal is so far off. For the longest time, I had the same hesitations for my new Rom, as I really didn't feel like doing all the endless grind again. Eventually I just chose to do so anyway, and get it over with.
So you believe folks were splitting their reps Offense/Defense instead of going all in on one side?
It was pretty much standard practice yes.
There are some offensive resp that sucked.
The Omega tier 4 offensive option was terrible... but having double the passive shield regen was in fact not bad.
The new Dyson Offensive tier 4 was also pretty junk... so I believe most people took the defensive version.
The nukura tier 2... I avoided the offensive version. The extra shield penetration while nice I guess really just made it slighly harder to get to naked hull as you directed dmg away from the shields. In PvE that passive in fact costs you DPS. So ya 5% more hull is 5% more hull. lol
As for the Romulan Placate... sure lots of people took that... and honestly I would call that one more of a defensive trait then an offensive one... however lots of people REFUSED to take it because we considered it to be a bit BS... which meant by default we where talking free on crit hit shields.
So yes I do believe that was a big part if the problem... I was taking all the best offensive traits and still ending up with A LOT of free defensive bonuses.
I agree Hybrid is the worst hit... and I also agree that that is a very good thing for the game.
Are really saying it should be ok for a level 50 to have 16+ rep passives while a new 50 would have zero ? That makes almost no sense. (unless you are suggesting they just nerf the heck out of each trait thats cool to... perhaps instead of +10 CRTD or +20 CRTD that passive should be giving us +2.5 CrtD... at that point they can go for 3 or 4 years before rep becomes an issue)
The only way we get to keep ALL reps earned now and in the future is if they raise the level cap.
So hey if that's what you want turn on your PvEr me me me cannon and blast the Devs till they give in.
I'm fine with having to grind Advanced Fleet ships... and then Tier 7 Fleet ships..... and MK XIV and later MK XVI.
What the heck I'm here anyway might as well grind 24/7 right. lol
using that argument what about the other passive skills we got via accolades? damge resist to this or that plus damage to this or that. In all I counted mine I have 83 passive skills in total. you don't get them all in one day, do you think that all those other passives I have earned should also be taken away just so a person can come to the game fresh ? or return after they got bored?
I don't like the current rep system but what I like even less is having things that were earned and paid for with time taken away just for the sake of others.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Of course that's why I do them but that's the problem in it's self. There shouldn't be powers tied to them at all. It's insane. It was poor design in the first place. It still is poor design.
They should go the whole nine yards with this and REMOVE all of the powers and not have powers tied to a rep system at all.
It was actually a great system. I usually told newbs in my fleet that STO Rep unlike W oW/Similar Rep are always useful and a form of leveling/progression after reaching 50 and unlike with other MMOs will still be a good time investment even if the devs should go on with MK13+.
Now its more or less the same TRIBBLE you only bother with to get a few skills you see as mandatory. Not only they removed the only progression system after 50 they had (and again, promoted it as such) but also took a chuck of progression already made with it.
Why not just remove just everything with stats/level differences & turn it into some dumb shooter. I bet a lot of ppl would be happy about that move. Because thats what happend with that here. Its a bad idea made up by shooter/balance everything peeps totally forgetting that a massive deal of fun in an RPG is character progression. And progression means = getting stronger. If you dont want to progress that stagnate all you want; go play success storys like APB or whatever. :mad:
using that argument what about the other passive skills we got via accolades? damge resist to this or that plus damage to this or that. In all I counted mine I have 83 passive skills in total. you don't get them all in one day, do you think that all those other passives I have earned should also be taken away just so a person can come to the game fresh ? or return after they got bored?
I don't like the current rep system but what I like even less is having things that were earned and paid for with time taken away just for the sake of others.
Well those little 2% dmg resistances and stuff are really no big deal which is why they can be ignored.
You can gain 20 +2% dmg resists if you like every piece of content you do they only shoot one thing at you so you still only have a total of 2% dmg resistance right.
It would be very different if everyone of those 2% you earned that way where just a flat +2% resistance to dmg and they stacked up... then yes having a +20% or more resist WOULD be 100% an issue that would need to be addressed.
Frankly if you play an MMO and you get something that you KNOW is way to good... expect it get adjusted down the line. They don't OWE us nothing... there job is to provide a fun game. Its no longer fun because creep has destroyed any hope that they will be able to adjust end game content to be enjoyable by everyone at the same time.
So yes to fix it they need to reign in the creep... and I'm sorry we all knew the Rep bonuses where boarder line to good. Many people myself included warned them on these very forums over a year ago that at the rate they where going to release new passives CREEP was going to catch up with them darn fast. Well it has.... in fact what Annoys most of us is they haven't addressed it until now. Looking at the PvE missions they have been releasing since the Fleet missions hit it is obvious they didn't trust there own system to balance play times out based on content difficulty. Its why every mission is timed these days instead of being open ended finish when you finish like the older STFs are.
I get that this is a painful change for many because they HEAR a couple players yell NERF... and its like someone just yelled out Fire in a theater. lol
There IS no fire. as others have said if I take your 8 Nickels and give you back 4 Dimes we are even. This change WILL effect people trying to run Hybrid builds that is OK... Hybrid options are the largest bit of creep in the game. People looking for a pure DPS or HPS option out of there triats will in fact get more then they got before due to the trait buffs.
Yes this means going forward new rep traits will have to be considered... and perhaps you only use them for X or Y content and swap around for other content... I don't see the issue there myself. Makes the game of ship building a big more complex and that isn't a bad thing I don't believe.
Right now if you are mainly doing PvE .... consider your build. look at the skills... look at the passives you have been selecting... look at the gear you have been loading. I think most people will realize they have almost ALL offensive stuff loaded up... everyone can afford to because PvE is super easy. Yes part of that is everyone has a bunch of extra healing from passives... part of that is a bunch of extra healing from gear and consoles... its at a point where no one worries about surviving in PvE because there is no challenge in it. Surviving is as easy as flying forward.
Myself I hope this is just the first change... I hope the borg "bug" fix goes far enough. (right now according to mancoms parse of 1000s of ships) it still accounts for more then 50% of the entire games hull healing... which is beyond stupid... so something tells me this change is still not going to go far enough on that one.
They have skills to look at like FAW and torp spread... and weapon energy drain in general is borked.
They have a bunch of doffs that need to be addressed.
They have console creep that seriously needs to be addressed.
There are other things they should be looking at as well... however I think we all know they can't do it all in one patch... well they could but I think people might turn themselves inside out or something. lol
Man I wish more of the games current players where around for the first major healing change where they added like 4 or 5 skills... and made things like Engi team almost useless. I am not sure how some of the newer players would handle that level of change.
So yes to fix it they need to reign in the creep... and I'm sorry we all knew the Rep bonuses where boarder line to good.
That's somewhat of a duplicitous argument; not by you, mind you, but by Cryptic.
See, the thing is, they dangled all these 'borderline too good' bonuses in front of us, precisely because they wanted us to spend resources on the reps. To then later back-peddle on that carrot, and argue that we should have known it was too good to be true, kinda two-faced, really.
As it now stands, we can only use 4 (out of heretofore 8) passive space powers. So, that's a 50% nerf then. That would be funny, if it weren't so sad.
Only reason I did the any of the reps was for those powers I already had the kgh sets space and ground and the borg set . I didn't see anything they were selling that beat them so the only item I got on all my toons but one was the omega cutting beam, I don't use torps so didn't mess with those. the only exception was my reman and with him I only did the rommy rep and I never joined a faction with him either do hes a lvl 50 faction less reman with only reman gear and that stuff is bad to say the least.
what the heck, messing with something that should just be left alone, how about working on something that really needs to be fixed like some of the bugs, and adding new stuff not killing a good thing.......
"as others have said if I take your 8 Nickels and give you back 4 Dimes we are even."
Tired of this line. Let me bust this wide open. The thing is the 8 nickels have more features than the 4 dimes.
IE: 8 guns vs. 4 "good" limited guns. 8 levels versus 4 "good" limited levels. 8 games vs. 4 "good" limited games. 8 weapon options vs. 4 "good" limited weapon options.
It's this pretty much too: go into war with Anti-air, anti tank, anti-ship, stealth, missiles, air support, night vision, or go into war with "good" anti-Air and air support. In combat it might
turn night time. Sure wish i had that night vision. "Well your car no longer has 4 tires, but we gave you 2 really good tires!"
How you would like it if I limited something you worked hard for? "Use your car today, no internet today. Take a shower today, No electricity today. Use water today, no A/c today. Limits are not always good on stuff people worked for. I still see no positive in the rep change... At all. Less options is better? You guys didn't expect me to accept that did you?
The dress is gold and white. Over 70% people says so. When viewed from a certain screen angle it appears blue and black. The dress displayed on amazon is a blue and black dress, but it's not the same dress in the picture. If you're seeing blue & black you're slightly colored blind. A normal upright screen = white and gold.
That's somewhat of a duplicitous argument; not by you, mind you, but by Cryptic.
See, the thing is, they dangled all these 'borderline too good' bonuses in front of us, precisely because they wanted us to spend resources on the reps. To then later back-peddle on that carrot, and argue that we should have known it was too good to be true, kinda two-faced, really.
As it now stands, we can only use 4 (out of heretofore 8) passive space powers. So, that's a 50% nerf then. That would be funny, if it weren't so sad.
I don't completely disagree... they should have put this system in place from day one... and said it will matter later when there are more reps. They where short sighted I agree.
However do I respect the man that makes a mistake... or do I respect that man that makes one and then admits it and fixes it.
Your right you can make an argument that they used the bonuses to help sell there game and make $... I see your point but I don't think that is all of it really... because it wasn't JUST the rep passives the unlocks on the gear are also there. You can't tell me people didn't do romulan rep for The romulan space set and plasma Disruptors... or that they didn't do Nukura for mines or tier 5 skills. How about borg you telling me people didn't do it for MK XII borg sets ? Dyson was just so easy it got done anyway.
My point is there was more reasons to play the content regardless of the passives... and if you are being honest you have to admit you would have been playing the content even if the passives didn't exist at all.
I appreciate your passion against this change, I too think the implementation is bad - at least not having min of 5/5 passives to go with the 5 reps.
This rep "modification" is at best a Band-Aid on an arterial wound solution - that is meaningless if they don't address the continued power creep being sold through the cash store.
It sends a horrible message that they will cut back a small part of the games power creep which is attained through player "grind" or work - BUT - they make no changes to the pay-to-win power LEAP!
However, all that being said - don't get your self too worked up about this - it's a done deal - nothing you or any other players comments or feeling will have anything but a marginal impact on it's role-out - at most!!
At most I see them changing is to up it to 5/5 passives to match the 5 reps - and that would be a HUGE victory.
Do yourself a favor and just let it go for now - you are not changing their minds and you are not helping your state of mind.
When it roles out - if you really hate it - you always have the choice not to participate in the game. One way or the other players will either adapt to the changes or move on - just a fact of the business. I hope you stay, but just know that at this point you are pretty much wasting your virtual breath here.
Bottom line is that these changes may not go far enough to stop the rampant power creep of the game. It's my opinion that they are starting too late with the rep system changes and not addressing the real power creep issues with this change.
One thing you have to take away from all this - the game needs new players to keep injecting money into it after the older ones have stopped or slowed down - if not the game dies and you lose whatever you worked for anyways. So while changes to benefit new players at the expense of vet players sucks - it's a "necessary evil" to keep the game running for everyone.
Cheers
Good points here, with some food for thought tossed in.
How you would like it if I limited something you worked hard for? "Use your car today, no internet today.:o Take a shower today, No electricity today. Use water today, no A/c today. Limits are not always good on stuff people worked for. I still see no positive in the rep change... At all. Less options is better? You guys didn't expect me to accept that did you?
This is a video game and anything you have worked hard for is pure pixels and doesn't belong to you go read the fine print. Nothing here is physical and you don't own any of it so get used to that its a MMO. In a MMO it all exists on the servers... what are you going to do demand they copy it all to a floppy for you when they shut the servers down ?
They are not TAKING anything from you ... they are making a system change in a game THEY own. if you don't like that you are welcome to leave frankly. However before you go stop for 2 seconds and think about why they are changing something... and perhaps take a second and consider the how and why of it. The developers are game designers that IS what we pay them to be. So why would we get annoyed when they make decisions to make the game work.
B: An account with multiple "ghosts" posting in shifts, in the interests of pulling off an epic troll.
It's odd that you have been posting near continuously in at least two major threads on the subject. I find it hard to believe that anybody is this zealous in defending a change in game mechanics.
And I've been on the internet long enough, that I've seen pretty much every tactic used to achieve the "lulz".
This is a video game and anything you have worked hard for is pure pixels and doesn't belong to you go read the fine print. Nothing here is physical and you don't own any of it so get used to that its a MMO.
^^ This here is not your strongest line of reasoning. Primarily so, because you try and make it a legal argument, where it is simply a matter of treating your customers right. Cryptic has the right to do whatever it wants, but isn't necessarily right in doing so. Big difference. Huge.
But if you want to get legal for a moment, there's lots of stuff you don't own per se (own != possess), but still have rights to; like software, for instance ('a right to use'); which, in digital download form, isn't 'physical' either.
^^ This here is not your strongest line of reasoning. Primarily so, because you try and make it a legal argument, where it is simply a matter of treating your customers right. Cryptic has the right to do whatever it wants, but isn't necessarily right in doing so. Big difference. Huge.
But if you want to get legal for a moment, there's lots of stuff you don't own per se (own != possess), but still have rights to; like software, for instance ('a right to use'); which, in digital download form, isn't 'physical' either.
I don't mean to make it a legal thing... just sick of people saying Mine Mine Mine I own it I do, My precious.
This is a game and at ANY time they can make changes to stuff we have paid for... never mind just ground for.
Your right they are a business and as such they will treat us like customers. You can stomp your feet if you like and yell that the customer is always right... really though they aren't.
Some times a business has to make business decisions. In this case they have clearly stated why they are making the change... it is very logical. It is a sound business decision in my view. There's as well obviously.
Guess what 2 weeks after this change you will have forgotten all about and you will be happily grinding your Undine rep.
Man I wish more of the games current players where around for the first major healing change where they added like 4 or 5 skills... and made things like Engi team almost useless. I am not sure how some of the newer players would handle that level of change.
who are those older players you are referring to grandpops?
While the forums sometimes make me headdesk, in-game discussions about power-creep whiners are even more hilarious. Let's just hope someone at cryptic has the balls to rediscover 1st healing revamp kind of spirit.
who are those older players you are referring to grandpops?
While the forums sometimes make me headdesk, in-game discussions about power-creep whiners are even more hilarious. Let's just hope someone at cryptic has the balls to rediscover 1st healing revamp kind of spirit.
No doubt... I would love to see another patch that has 3 pages of explanations.
I'm a serious gamer and lifetime subscriber. I always max my characters and I read and do analysis in order to improve. I have high dps combat style and ships for which I spent zen. I believe that people should stop complaining about power creep and instead learn how to create a good build and grind.
I understand business model where you have to invest hard work, time and some money to be among top players; Developers and staff need to get paid for their hard work and company needs to make money in order to provide us with game content that we like and enjoy..
But also I believe that there has to be difference between new and experienced players. It's like in the real life. You work, study, practice and you get better. I invested thousand of hours into my characters. I know that there is a need to expand users base, but this is the wrong path. From my point of view, once I lose my rep powers I'm not going to invest so much time or zen in anything here anymore because it can be nerfed easily. And, btw. taking away my passives in this case I consider a huge nerf.
Of course, some things need to be nerfed and\or modified. It's like in the real life when old technology becomes outdated and that is a normal cycle. But after thousands of hours playing, grinding and building my characters the idea that someone who just started to play or is too lazy to do reputations will be able to match me pretty quickly with less effort and investment is completely unacceptable for me. Like a rookie pilot would have any chance against experienced pilot... yeah right... Though I wouldn't mind if only requirements for reputations were made easier, but you still had to earn your stripes.
Furthermore, I'll be very disappointed if I see that you can buy additional slots for rep powers... I worked hard for those reps and I already paid once to respec my rep powers which are going to be taken away and gotta say that I have certain feelings regarding that respec right now...
I'm not going to stop playing STO... at least for now... But I'll be spending less time and zen in the game once these changes get implemented. I hope I'm wrong but this looks like a bad business move which will alienate hardcore players base and will end up with having less active players. It may attract some casual players but I bet that pve queue will have a lot less players after reps nerf... It looks like there is no clear understanding of who should be and who is STO target audience and how to maintain balance between players... While I don't mind paying for cool new ships or equipment, I would mind if the game becomes pure pay 2 win or Star Trek 4 Dummies... If that happens I'll be definitely out...
Some times a business has to make business decisions. In this case they have clearly stated why they are making the change... it is very logical. It is a sound business decision in my view. There's as well obviously.
Guess what 2 weeks after this change you will have forgotten all about and you will be happily grinding your Undine rep.
you know what I won't forget? Dustin, Chelsea, and Jimmy use to play this game with me. Real, local friends that left when the Borg story missions got butchered. I've had other friends stop playing this game to, heavy trekkies that only quit when the devs did something to appeal to casual players and ether directly or indirectly pulled the challenge and incentive out of the game. No, I won't be "happily grinding my undien rep" what incentive do I have to do so?
So if Cryptic wants casual players so bad sure they can have them. I'm not quiting over this but I am cutting a good portion of my game time out to join my friends in other hobbies (right now they are making uniforms, looks like I can get Chelsea to teach me to sew)
This is a video game and anything you have worked hard for is pure pixels and doesn't belong to you go read the fine print. Nothing here is physical and you don't own any of it so get used to that its a MMO. In a MMO it all exists on the servers... what are you going to do demand they copy it all to a floppy for you when they shut the servers down ?
They are not TAKING anything from you ... they are making a system change in a game THEY own. if you don't like that you are welcome to leave frankly. However before you go stop for 2 seconds and think about why they are changing something... and perhaps take a second and consider the how and why of it. The developers are game designers that IS what we pay them to be. So why would we get annoyed when they make decisions to make the game work.
Part of the problem here is that this is many players first mmo they have played and they lack a understanding of how they work. If they were to play other mmos they would be shocked beyond belief.
The grinds in STO are rather light compared to most other mmos. The grinds here give some kinda of reward that has value to you for a very long period of time.
Other mmos the reps take longer to grind, provide less and after a fairly short amount of time become worthless other then to have for vanity items, titles or other thing in game of no player power.
The very nature of a mmo is change, it's a fluid type of game where everything can be changed overnight and nothing remains stable.
^^ This here is not your strongest line of reasoning. Primarily so, because you try and make it a legal argument, where it is simply a matter of treating your customers right. Cryptic has the right to do whatever it wants, but isn't necessarily right in doing so. Big difference. Huge.
Sometimes the right thing to do is not the popular thing to do.
This could be a test where seeing how the changes in this relatively minor balancing work they then go on to do more balance passes on BOFFs, DOFFs, and even ships and weapons.
Comments
No, I've been saying (all along): just stop with the endless new reps already.
4 reps is doable for a new toon (just being doing it myself recently, training up my alt). Much beyond that, indeed, becomes insurmountable. Don't think limiting our space powers will change that, though: the new player will still have to go thru all the rep systems, if he, or she, wants the same choices as everyone else.
Jealousy for some, maybe. But at worst, it's no more juvenile and senseless than the desire among some to remain superior for no other reason than "we got here first", resisting any idea that makes it easier for others to achieve the same things you did.
This gets in to why the comparison to real-life education is a ridiculous one. Put simply: your achievements in a video game mean little, rendering any desire to keep others down nothing more than petty and childish. There's no reason to cry foul when something you have is made easier to obtain, because you already have it. Or, in the case of the rep trait revamp, there's no reason to fear being cut down to size because the end result is no different than your stuff being made easier to get - the playing field is leveled.
At worst, both sides are being children about the whole thing. "Waah, I don't have what they have." "Waah they want what I've got." It's a game; grow up, stop crying, and let the other kids on the playground play. Why do we care so much who has what?
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
ohh it will probably cost zen or a ton of dil and fleet marks at some future fleet holding.
Well, I don't PvP, so I don't need to feel 'superior' to anyone (except to the NPCs, maybe; but their A.I. is so lame, a wet paper would feel superior to them).
Also, don't care if others can have faster/easier access to what I have now (for one, because it would benefit a potential new alt of mine too).
I just don't like it when ppl begrudge my having climbed up the grind ladder, fair and square, only to hear them say that goal is so far off. For the longest time, I had the same hesitations for my new Rom, as I really didn't feel like doing all the endless grind again. Eventually I just chose to do so anyway, and get it over with.
Specialized damage dealers or dedicated healer tanks or even sci ships will see benefit from the revamp
Hybrids get the shaft.
Its actually a good thing overall. Its the hybrid builds that TRIBBLE everything up.
Am I trolling?
I am completely unsure.
But something tells me I am right.
Oh right, it was me that told me this, and I am almost always right about what happens when something new comes out.
Revamp = good.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
QSM, man! QSM!
So you believe folks were splitting their reps Offense/Defense instead of going all in on one side?
It was pretty much standard practice yes.
There are some offensive resp that sucked.
The Omega tier 4 offensive option was terrible... but having double the passive shield regen was in fact not bad.
The new Dyson Offensive tier 4 was also pretty junk... so I believe most people took the defensive version.
The nukura tier 2... I avoided the offensive version. The extra shield penetration while nice I guess really just made it slighly harder to get to naked hull as you directed dmg away from the shields. In PvE that passive in fact costs you DPS. So ya 5% more hull is 5% more hull. lol
As for the Romulan Placate... sure lots of people took that... and honestly I would call that one more of a defensive trait then an offensive one... however lots of people REFUSED to take it because we considered it to be a bit BS... which meant by default we where talking free on crit hit shields.
So yes I do believe that was a big part if the problem... I was taking all the best offensive traits and still ending up with A LOT of free defensive bonuses.
I agree Hybrid is the worst hit... and I also agree that that is a very good thing for the game.
using that argument what about the other passive skills we got via accolades? damge resist to this or that plus damage to this or that. In all I counted mine I have 83 passive skills in total. you don't get them all in one day, do you think that all those other passives I have earned should also be taken away just so a person can come to the game fresh ? or return after they got bored?
I don't like the current rep system but what I like even less is having things that were earned and paid for with time taken away just for the sake of others.
It was actually a great system. I usually told newbs in my fleet that STO Rep unlike W oW/Similar Rep are always useful and a form of leveling/progression after reaching 50 and unlike with other MMOs will still be a good time investment even if the devs should go on with MK13+.
Now its more or less the same TRIBBLE you only bother with to get a few skills you see as mandatory. Not only they removed the only progression system after 50 they had (and again, promoted it as such) but also took a chuck of progression already made with it.
Why not just remove just everything with stats/level differences & turn it into some dumb shooter. I bet a lot of ppl would be happy about that move. Because thats what happend with that here. Its a bad idea made up by shooter/balance everything peeps totally forgetting that a massive deal of fun in an RPG is character progression. And progression means = getting stronger. If you dont want to progress that stagnate all you want; go play success storys like APB or whatever. :mad:
Well those little 2% dmg resistances and stuff are really no big deal which is why they can be ignored.
You can gain 20 +2% dmg resists if you like every piece of content you do they only shoot one thing at you so you still only have a total of 2% dmg resistance right.
It would be very different if everyone of those 2% you earned that way where just a flat +2% resistance to dmg and they stacked up... then yes having a +20% or more resist WOULD be 100% an issue that would need to be addressed.
Frankly if you play an MMO and you get something that you KNOW is way to good... expect it get adjusted down the line. They don't OWE us nothing... there job is to provide a fun game. Its no longer fun because creep has destroyed any hope that they will be able to adjust end game content to be enjoyable by everyone at the same time.
So yes to fix it they need to reign in the creep... and I'm sorry we all knew the Rep bonuses where boarder line to good. Many people myself included warned them on these very forums over a year ago that at the rate they where going to release new passives CREEP was going to catch up with them darn fast. Well it has.... in fact what Annoys most of us is they haven't addressed it until now. Looking at the PvE missions they have been releasing since the Fleet missions hit it is obvious they didn't trust there own system to balance play times out based on content difficulty. Its why every mission is timed these days instead of being open ended finish when you finish like the older STFs are.
I get that this is a painful change for many because they HEAR a couple players yell NERF... and its like someone just yelled out Fire in a theater. lol
There IS no fire. as others have said if I take your 8 Nickels and give you back 4 Dimes we are even. This change WILL effect people trying to run Hybrid builds that is OK... Hybrid options are the largest bit of creep in the game. People looking for a pure DPS or HPS option out of there triats will in fact get more then they got before due to the trait buffs.
Yes this means going forward new rep traits will have to be considered... and perhaps you only use them for X or Y content and swap around for other content... I don't see the issue there myself. Makes the game of ship building a big more complex and that isn't a bad thing I don't believe.
Right now if you are mainly doing PvE .... consider your build. look at the skills... look at the passives you have been selecting... look at the gear you have been loading. I think most people will realize they have almost ALL offensive stuff loaded up... everyone can afford to because PvE is super easy. Yes part of that is everyone has a bunch of extra healing from passives... part of that is a bunch of extra healing from gear and consoles... its at a point where no one worries about surviving in PvE because there is no challenge in it. Surviving is as easy as flying forward.
Myself I hope this is just the first change... I hope the borg "bug" fix goes far enough. (right now according to mancoms parse of 1000s of ships) it still accounts for more then 50% of the entire games hull healing... which is beyond stupid... so something tells me this change is still not going to go far enough on that one.
They have skills to look at like FAW and torp spread... and weapon energy drain in general is borked.
They have a bunch of doffs that need to be addressed.
They have console creep that seriously needs to be addressed.
There are other things they should be looking at as well... however I think we all know they can't do it all in one patch... well they could but I think people might turn themselves inside out or something. lol
Man I wish more of the games current players where around for the first major healing change where they added like 4 or 5 skills... and made things like Engi team almost useless. I am not sure how some of the newer players would handle that level of change.
That's somewhat of a duplicitous argument; not by you, mind you, but by Cryptic.
See, the thing is, they dangled all these 'borderline too good' bonuses in front of us, precisely because they wanted us to spend resources on the reps. To then later back-peddle on that carrot, and argue that we should have known it was too good to be true, kinda two-faced, really.
As it now stands, we can only use 4 (out of heretofore 8) passive space powers. So, that's a 50% nerf then. That would be funny, if it weren't so sad.
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I have just seen allot of changes and they always seem to boil down to a way for them to make money. and that's fine I know they need to make it to keep things going. but they can continue the cycle without it involving theft.
tbarlow
Tired of this line. Let me bust this wide open. The thing is the 8 nickels have more features than the 4 dimes.
IE: 8 guns vs. 4 "good" limited guns. 8 levels versus 4 "good" limited levels. 8 games vs. 4 "good" limited games. 8 weapon options vs. 4 "good" limited weapon options.
It's this pretty much too: go into war with Anti-air, anti tank, anti-ship, stealth, missiles, air support, night vision, or go into war with "good" anti-Air and air support. In combat it might
turn night time. Sure wish i had that night vision. "Well your car no longer has 4 tires, but we gave you 2 really good tires!"
How you would like it if I limited something you worked hard for? "Use your car today, no internet today. Take a shower today, No electricity today. Use water today, no A/c today. Limits are not always good on stuff people worked for. I still see no positive in the rep change... At all. Less options is better? You guys didn't expect me to accept that did you?
I don't completely disagree... they should have put this system in place from day one... and said it will matter later when there are more reps. They where short sighted I agree.
However do I respect the man that makes a mistake... or do I respect that man that makes one and then admits it and fixes it.
Your right you can make an argument that they used the bonuses to help sell there game and make $... I see your point but I don't think that is all of it really... because it wasn't JUST the rep passives the unlocks on the gear are also there. You can't tell me people didn't do romulan rep for The romulan space set and plasma Disruptors... or that they didn't do Nukura for mines or tier 5 skills. How about borg you telling me people didn't do it for MK XII borg sets ? Dyson was just so easy it got done anyway.
My point is there was more reasons to play the content regardless of the passives... and if you are being honest you have to admit you would have been playing the content even if the passives didn't exist at all.
I did. To an extent, it was because I felt some of the choices available were irrelevant in some way, but there you are.
And: lot's of aneurysms going on in this thread. Chill. It's a game.
Good points here, with some food for thought tossed in.
Deserves to be quoted.
This is a video game and anything you have worked hard for is pure pixels and doesn't belong to you go read the fine print. Nothing here is physical and you don't own any of it so get used to that its a MMO. In a MMO it all exists on the servers... what are you going to do demand they copy it all to a floppy for you when they shut the servers down ?
They are not TAKING anything from you ... they are making a system change in a game THEY own. if you don't like that you are welcome to leave frankly. However before you go stop for 2 seconds and think about why they are changing something... and perhaps take a second and consider the how and why of it. The developers are game designers that IS what we pay them to be. So why would we get annoyed when they make decisions to make the game work.
I'm pretty much convinced that you are either:
A: A heavy duty Red Bull drinker...
or
B: An account with multiple "ghosts" posting in shifts, in the interests of pulling off an epic troll.
It's odd that you have been posting near continuously in at least two major threads on the subject. I find it hard to believe that anybody is this zealous in defending a change in game mechanics.
And I've been on the internet long enough, that I've seen pretty much every tactic used to achieve the "lulz".
^^ This here is not your strongest line of reasoning. Primarily so, because you try and make it a legal argument, where it is simply a matter of treating your customers right. Cryptic has the right to do whatever it wants, but isn't necessarily right in doing so. Big difference. Huge.
But if you want to get legal for a moment, there's lots of stuff you don't own per se (own != possess), but still have rights to; like software, for instance ('a right to use'); which, in digital download form, isn't 'physical' either.
I don't mean to make it a legal thing... just sick of people saying Mine Mine Mine I own it I do, My precious.
This is a game and at ANY time they can make changes to stuff we have paid for... never mind just ground for.
Your right they are a business and as such they will treat us like customers. You can stomp your feet if you like and yell that the customer is always right... really though they aren't.
Some times a business has to make business decisions. In this case they have clearly stated why they are making the change... it is very logical. It is a sound business decision in my view. There's as well obviously.
Guess what 2 weeks after this change you will have forgotten all about and you will be happily grinding your Undine rep.
who are those older players you are referring to grandpops?
While the forums sometimes make me headdesk, in-game discussions about power-creep whiners are even more hilarious. Let's just hope someone at cryptic has the balls to rediscover 1st healing revamp kind of spirit.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
No doubt... I would love to see another patch that has 3 pages of explanations.
I understand business model where you have to invest hard work, time and some money to be among top players; Developers and staff need to get paid for their hard work and company needs to make money in order to provide us with game content that we like and enjoy..
But also I believe that there has to be difference between new and experienced players. It's like in the real life. You work, study, practice and you get better. I invested thousand of hours into my characters. I know that there is a need to expand users base, but this is the wrong path. From my point of view, once I lose my rep powers I'm not going to invest so much time or zen in anything here anymore because it can be nerfed easily. And, btw. taking away my passives in this case I consider a huge nerf.
Of course, some things need to be nerfed and\or modified. It's like in the real life when old technology becomes outdated and that is a normal cycle. But after thousands of hours playing, grinding and building my characters the idea that someone who just started to play or is too lazy to do reputations will be able to match me pretty quickly with less effort and investment is completely unacceptable for me. Like a rookie pilot would have any chance against experienced pilot... yeah right... Though I wouldn't mind if only requirements for reputations were made easier, but you still had to earn your stripes.
Furthermore, I'll be very disappointed if I see that you can buy additional slots for rep powers... I worked hard for those reps and I already paid once to respec my rep powers which are going to be taken away and gotta say that I have certain feelings regarding that respec right now...
I'm not going to stop playing STO... at least for now... But I'll be spending less time and zen in the game once these changes get implemented. I hope I'm wrong but this looks like a bad business move which will alienate hardcore players base and will end up with having less active players. It may attract some casual players but I bet that pve queue will have a lot less players after reps nerf... It looks like there is no clear understanding of who should be and who is STO target audience and how to maintain balance between players... While I don't mind paying for cool new ships or equipment, I would mind if the game becomes pure pay 2 win or Star Trek 4 Dummies... If that happens I'll be definitely out...
Sincerely yours,
thexpl0r3r
you know what I won't forget? Dustin, Chelsea, and Jimmy use to play this game with me. Real, local friends that left when the Borg story missions got butchered. I've had other friends stop playing this game to, heavy trekkies that only quit when the devs did something to appeal to casual players and ether directly or indirectly pulled the challenge and incentive out of the game. No, I won't be "happily grinding my undien rep" what incentive do I have to do so?
So if Cryptic wants casual players so bad sure they can have them. I'm not quiting over this but I am cutting a good portion of my game time out to join my friends in other hobbies (right now they are making uniforms, looks like I can get Chelsea to teach me to sew)
Part of the problem here is that this is many players first mmo they have played and they lack a understanding of how they work. If they were to play other mmos they would be shocked beyond belief.
The grinds in STO are rather light compared to most other mmos. The grinds here give some kinda of reward that has value to you for a very long period of time.
Other mmos the reps take longer to grind, provide less and after a fairly short amount of time become worthless other then to have for vanity items, titles or other thing in game of no player power.
The very nature of a mmo is change, it's a fluid type of game where everything can be changed overnight and nothing remains stable.
Sometimes the right thing to do is not the popular thing to do.
This could be a test where seeing how the changes in this relatively minor balancing work they then go on to do more balance passes on BOFFs, DOFFs, and even ships and weapons.