if only it were that easy.
if i elect to modify the head on any outfit other than 'uniform' i will be forced to completely recreate the entire outfit. to make matters worse, many of those outfits cannot be recreated or edited (bves, etc).
imo it might be a good idea to put off something like this until the various tailor bugs/issues are worked out:
- 'modify' means 'modify' (not 'start over') on honour guard, omega, off-duty, etc.
- players can create a base 'shape' (face/body) that is applied to all outfits
- 'load outfit' actually loads the outfit in all cases
- more outside the scope of the immediate discussion!
This is a real concern of mine too. Many of my costumes have been completely uneditable for some time, because they totally distort with any change. Also the 'save outfit' and 'load outfit' options rarely, if ever, work at all.
Perhaps this is an opportunity to 'get two birds stoned at the same time' and fix some of the issues with the tailor as this is implemented.
That's actually an interesting potential solution.
As umaeko pointed out we were hoping for a fairly substantial facelift to NPCs and contacts. The most recent subtle updated textures post I made really don't improve the assets to the level we (and as seen on this forum - some of the players) would like.
And in answer to a couple other posts - no, it *isn't* easy to add the new head (as a new version) and go through all of the NPC's and update them. There are possibly 100's of costumes using the current version and we don't have an automatic way to even find out which those are.
So...will you, the players get bent out of shape if you don't like the update and have to go to the tailor with your characters and BOFF's to choose "Humanoid 2b" head and "Complexion 2b"? There's no cost to changing head and facial features, right?
I think this is the best solution, with 2/2 being the original/drastic proposal and 2b/2b being the more subtle version.
That should make everyone happy.
I love the new faces, I'm still concerned though about skirt legs with the free starfleet uniform skirts, in that they look seriously fragile at the ankle with no way to adjust it, yet the tailor version looks great, can you please confirm these are lining up properly?
I wanted to give an example of using Humanoid 2 as a basis for a Caucasian...
Would it be possible to first have a script "repoint" all instances of humanoid 2 to humanoid 3 in the NPC costume database? That's a different library than the player costume database so doing a "find and replace" would convert all NPCs without affecting players.
Point 1: yes, hence why we refer to the asset only internally as "Asian". We fully expect and intend players and devs to use it in a wide range of faces. Your example uses the head shape with a different complexion and the result isn't bad. The geo still has some wonkiness I'd like to smooth out. But really the biggest offender is the male complexion Standard 02. It looks pretty bad on Humanoid 2 (which it was "intended" for) and looks *horrible* on the Humanoid 1 head. Anyway, the texture update should improve the issue without changing the overall appearance.
Point 2: absolutely...It then comes down to prioritizing for a programmer or tech artist and these things often seem to get backburnered into oblivion. The previous proposed method could be done purely art side. But we're discussing our options.
Point 1: yes, hence why we refer to the asset only internally as "Asian". We fully expect and intend players and devs to use it in a wide range of faces. Your example uses the head shape with a different complexion and the result isn't bad. The geo still has some wonkiness I'd like to smooth out. But really the biggest offender is the male complexion Standard 02. It looks pretty bad on Humanoid 2 (which it was "intended" for) and looks *horrible* on the Humanoid 1 head. Anyway, the texture update should improve the issue without changing the overall appearance.
Point 2: absolutely...It then comes down to prioritizing for a programmer or tech artist and these things often seem to get backburnered into oblivion. The previous proposed method could be done purely art side. But we're discussing our options.
Thanks so much. I'm really not exploding or anything but trying to work through options, putting our heads together. A big part of the Cryptic brand is distinctiveness among characters. Trek poses interesting challenges as far as that goes because many of the important distinctions are subtle.
I doubt CoH faces were subjected to the same amount of scrutiny since it was more about broad types (I do have a couple of friends who could be modeled very well in CoH, mind you, and we had a lot of fun building alts of ourselves) whereas even though STO has more body customization than CoH did at launch (which has its own headaches), getting those details right has got to be something that gives an artist nightmares.
Especially since so much of this KIND of customization has so many costumes it has to work with. I know the job gets harder over time as you have to start making sure that every head works with the Vedek hood and sunglasses, etc.
You're doing a really fantastic job, Joe, and I'm impressed with your dedication at improving and building on four year old designs. I'd have never imagined the game would look as rich and diverse as it does today at launch.
Hope you guys are having cake for the anniversary.
And finally, bear in mind this head shape and complexion could be mixed and matched with the other head shapes and complexions exactly the same as before. To give an idea of before and after for different combos using somewhat extreme examples with blond hair and black hair: http://imgur.com/D0Q1UkP
Hope it's easy enough to understand and I hope you like the improvements as much as we do.
I'm ecstatic to hear you and the art team are looking over character models again. Personally, I think the after changes look much better than the current holodeck textures. I look forward to seeing them on Holodeck someday.
While I am thinking of it, have you or the art team ever considered updating the Starfleet NPCs on ship interiors and social zones? The older uniforms show their age when put next to the great newer uniforms created by the art team. The majority of those NPCs wear the Sierra/Antares uniform, which doesn't look anywhere near as good as the Starfleet NPCs on the Fleet Starbase/Embassy wearing the Odyssey uniform.
But for the head and texture on this thread, the *BIGGEST* reason to replace the old one is it automatically improves the dozens or even hundred or so NPC's that are using the current head. Boom, pretty widespread improvement to the visuals of the STO game.
THAT ABOVE IS THE PRIMARY REASON to replace the existing assets.
Unless there is a true glitch in the design, changes to features aren't improvements. That's basically saying that certain faces are better than others -- a subjective assessment unless we're talking about deformities from disease or birth defects. The key is for the sliders and the complexion options to give people as much freedom to create the face they want as possible.
argument about not wanting to have too many options
The amount of grind in this game is breathtaking in comparison with the very small number of options in the character generator.
There aren't nearly enough options as-is. Extra complexion options are very welcome.
I'll ask again for a male one that doesn't have unnecessary brown facial hair stubble -- so I can make actual blonde and red-haired male characters.
Why is it that all of the adjustments are about fixing things that already look OK? Basic features like the ability to have a clean-shaven non-brown-hair stubble male are missing.
The new eyes would have been a nice thing to have with the old eyes as a selectable option. The new ones look smaller. With some male characters it makes the eyes look quite small -- especially since the eye size slider is so restrictive with certain races like Orions.
I'll also ask again for a smooth/youthful male complexion. We have aged, very haggard ("heroic"), haggard (standard), and somewhat smooth (Asian). Why can't there be a smooth complexion with the standard features -- no beard stubble?
Also, it would be highly welcome to be able to give male characters a less glum expression. The male Orions have a forced perma-frown to go with their very small eyes, which is disappointing.
Here is an example of smooth complexion and large eyes (Tom Welling):
As has already been stated, art is subjective, and why you look at something and think it looks like steak dinner with a side of 'TRIBBLE', you need to understand that there are hundreds of people out there that have already happily paid for a side of chocolate pudding that they're quite happy to enjoy.
There are many of us who have spent years with our characters, paid hundreds- if not thousands- of dollars to develop this avatar to represent an image of our choosing. You tweak the body here or there, OK, fine. But to pull the rug out beneath the very face of our characters is just to go too far.
Almost all of my toons use the existing 'humanoid 2' head. I think it looks great. I never intended my characters to look Asian, but with the 'humanoid 1' head, I think they look to cartoony. Their eyes are so big, their proportions are so chiseled and uniform. They don't look as real as the 'humanoid 2' heads do to me. I like the way my characters look. They don't look unfinished, they don't look broken, they don't look bad. They look handsome and beautiful just as they are. And I've spent WAY too much of my time getting to develop and love them like they are.
I would be extremely upset for that to change now. It's the fact- the very identity of the characters we've created. I'd rather see anything else nerfed... but don't nerf my face.
^^ This 100%. I gave a ****storm when our characters were 'tweaked' with original Season 8, and my ruined characters are only halfway back to what they were after hours of re-tweaking what used to be my own 'perfect' looks.
Add this as additional option, because if my characters get ruined again then I am off the boat, sayonara, for real.
While I certainly like the new proposed tweaks as something additional and optional, I do not want my characters to be arbitrarily changed as they were at Season 8.
All I saw was red for weeks anytime I logged on here.
I would be content with the new drastic assets added as 2a/2a, the more subtle changes as 2b/2b (or 4/4), and the original "legacy" assets added as 2c/2c or 3/3. Hopefully, that will please everyone.
I would be content with the new drastic assets added as 2a/2a, the more subtle changes as 2b/2b (or 4/4), and the original "legacy" assets added as 2c/2c or 3/3. Hopefully, that will please everyone.
That's actually an interesting potential solution.
As umaeko pointed out we were hoping for a fairly substantial facelift to NPCs and contacts. The most recent subtle updated textures post I made really don't improve the assets to the level we (and as seen on this forum - some of the players) would like.
And in answer to a couple other posts - no, it *isn't* easy to add the new head (as a new version) and go through all of the NPC's and update them. There are possibly 100's of costumes using the current version and we don't have an automatic way to even find out which those are.
So...will you, the players get bent out of shape if you don't like the update and have to go to the tailor with your characters and BOFF's to choose "Humanoid 2b" head and "Complexion 2b"? There's no cost to changing head and facial features, right?
I'm not sure what you mean by "cost". If I recall correctly, there is a small EC cost. But the primary concern is being able to restore the old look of our characters and the amount of work needed to do so. Since it's not too much work to change one or two options in drop-down menus, I believe most players would be OK with this solution.
Specifically, bloating character creation with options isn't necessarily an improvement.
I agree that bloat isn't a good thing, but you also need to worry about backwards compatibility. This game is 4 years old now, and backwards compatibility is one of the downsides of maintaining an old piece of software. Wholesale replacement of existing features is not necessarily the best solution.
While we have your attention, can you please get someone on the art team to look at the bug below.
So...will you, the players get bent out of shape if you don't like the update and have to go to the tailor with your characters and BOFF's to choose "Humanoid 2b" head and "Complexion 2b"? There's no cost to changing head and facial features, right?
The tailor issue demonstrated in this video is my biggest concern if you choose to go this route:
You rock!! I had passed on the comments a number of you brought up about problems but we were having troubles figuring out exactly what was being described. The video is fantastic. THanks!
You rock!! I had passed on the comments a number of you brought up about problems but we were having troubles figuring out exactly what was being described. The video is fantastic. THanks!
Been having these issues for months now with TWO of my costume slots of my Klingon. I can also not 1) wear, 2) rename, 3) modify them.
Also: The Off-duty/Uniform/FOrmal wear/etc. button has to be moved somewhere more sensible than the "Head" section. It should be in the first page of a costume, or below each costume's mini-preview in the general list.
You rock!! I had passed on the comments a number of you brought up about problems but we were having troubles figuring out exactly what was being described. The video is fantastic. THanks!
Very, very happy to! (sorry about the low volume levels)
Thank you for taking the time to talk to us and check out our concerns. Seriously, it means a lot to us! Thanks for all of your work!
I'll add another issue which I find REALLY annoying. My Klingon got his cross faction officer from the Doff stuff (Human female) and I can't change ANYTHING with her. Not her outfit, hair, face, anything. It always comes up that pieces aren't allowed or something like that. Haven't been able to do it for almost a year if not more. Very irritating, especially when the Orion I took on the Fed side can be changed just fine with no issues.
I know there is a method but all I see is madness.
You rock!! I had passed on the comments a number of you brought up about problems but we were having troubles figuring out exactly what was being described. The video is fantastic. THanks!
While you're futzing around in character creation, would it be possible to revisit other little broken things, like the one messed up Orion Round shoulder pad or the long-time broken "be'veS" KDF Honor Guard costume option?
I'll add another issue which I find REALLY annoying. My Klingon got his cross faction officer from the Doff stuff (Human female) and I can't change ANYTHING with her. Not her outfit, hair, face, anything. It always comes up that pieces aren't allowed or something like that. Haven't been able to do it for almost a year if not more. Very irritating, especially when the Orion I took on the Fed side can be changed just fine with no issues.
Yes, the Marauder Tier 4 reward. If you managed to fix that, CrypticJoeJing, I believe the whole of KDF would worship you as a returned Kahless.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
totally off here topic .but besides tos nurse and split skirt the rest of the other skirts make the upper part of female legs look like some anorexic women legs. i like how the full legs look on the tos nurse and split skirt and also khan and the punk hair style i kinda not work out for big head ppl . just wounding if this could be fix or corrected plz ,you'll be a god if you can
I would be content with the new drastic assets added as 2a/2a, the more subtle changes as 2b/2b (or 4/4), and the original "legacy" assets added as 2c/2c or 3/3. Hopefully, that will please everyone.
You rock!! I had passed on the comments a number of you brought up about problems but we were having troubles figuring out exactly what was being described. The video is fantastic. THanks!
There are actually two different bugs.
1. One of the "Save Outfit" buttons in the tailor is broken. If you try to load any outfit saved using that button, you will get the default settings and not the settings you saved. Note that there are actually two "Save Outfit" buttons in the tailor. The broken "Save Outfit" button is next to the "Exit" button when you first enter the tailor. The working "Save Outfit" button is under the "Head", "Body", and "Uniform" tabs after you click "Modify". I reported this bug long ago, when Legacy of Romulus was still beta on Tribble.
2. Sometimes, when you load a saved outfit, the tailor resets all options to default. Note that this happens with any saved outfit, not just the ones saved by broken "Saved Outfit" button described above. However, if you simply click "Cancel", click "Modify" again, and try to reload the outfit, then it suddenly works. It just fails on the first try.
This bug doesn't occur every time, but I see it most often when I load an outfit in one slot (captain or boff) and then load an outfit in another slot right after.
While we are on the topic of tailor bugs, I have several that date back from the Legacy of Romulus beta or even before.
totally off here topic .but besides tos nurse and split skirt the rest of the other skirts make the upper part of female legs look like some anorexic women legs. i like how the full legs look on the tos nurse and split skirt and also khan and the punk hair style i kinda not work out for big head ppl . just wounding if this could be fix or corrected plz ,you'll be a god if you can
There was an update to the legs in Season 8, and there have been several threads about that topic already. crypticjoejing has said that the regular skirt thighs need to be thinner in order to prevent clipping. I still see several inconsistencies with the legs.
1. The thighs for the TOS skirts look thicker from the front and back than from the sides. It is hard for me to choose a leg-bulk setting for those skirts, because what looks right from the sides doesn't look right from the front and back, and vice versa.
2. Different tight pants have different legs. The best way to see this is to go through the tight-pants options on a Romulan female. Or you can just look at the boffs Satra and Veril. By default, both Satra and Veril have their leg-bulk slider set exactly in the middle. But Satra has much thicker thighs than Veril, because she is wearing different pants.
Update as requested: We still have a few loose ends to tie up regarding new head shapes and complexions. A little verbal (er...written) teaser - I'm sitting on more stuff than you're expecting :P Think you'll love it.
Comments
This is a real concern of mine too. Many of my costumes have been completely uneditable for some time, because they totally distort with any change. Also the 'save outfit' and 'load outfit' options rarely, if ever, work at all.
Perhaps this is an opportunity to 'get two birds stoned at the same time' and fix some of the issues with the tailor as this is implemented.
I think this is the best solution, with 2/2 being the original/drastic proposal and 2b/2b being the more subtle version.
That should make everyone happy.
Point 1: yes, hence why we refer to the asset only internally as "Asian". We fully expect and intend players and devs to use it in a wide range of faces. Your example uses the head shape with a different complexion and the result isn't bad. The geo still has some wonkiness I'd like to smooth out. But really the biggest offender is the male complexion Standard 02. It looks pretty bad on Humanoid 2 (which it was "intended" for) and looks *horrible* on the Humanoid 1 head. Anyway, the texture update should improve the issue without changing the overall appearance.
Point 2: absolutely...It then comes down to prioritizing for a programmer or tech artist and these things often seem to get backburnered into oblivion. The previous proposed method could be done purely art side. But we're discussing our options.
Thanks so much. I'm really not exploding or anything but trying to work through options, putting our heads together. A big part of the Cryptic brand is distinctiveness among characters. Trek poses interesting challenges as far as that goes because many of the important distinctions are subtle.
I doubt CoH faces were subjected to the same amount of scrutiny since it was more about broad types (I do have a couple of friends who could be modeled very well in CoH, mind you, and we had a lot of fun building alts of ourselves) whereas even though STO has more body customization than CoH did at launch (which has its own headaches), getting those details right has got to be something that gives an artist nightmares.
Especially since so much of this KIND of customization has so many costumes it has to work with. I know the job gets harder over time as you have to start making sure that every head works with the Vedek hood and sunglasses, etc.
You're doing a really fantastic job, Joe, and I'm impressed with your dedication at improving and building on four year old designs. I'd have never imagined the game would look as rich and diverse as it does today at launch.
Hope you guys are having cake for the anniversary.
While I am thinking of it, have you or the art team ever considered updating the Starfleet NPCs on ship interiors and social zones? The older uniforms show their age when put next to the great newer uniforms created by the art team. The majority of those NPCs wear the Sierra/Antares uniform, which doesn't look anywhere near as good as the Starfleet NPCs on the Fleet Starbase/Embassy wearing the Odyssey uniform.
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Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
Unless there is a true glitch in the design, changes to features aren't improvements. That's basically saying that certain faces are better than others -- a subjective assessment unless we're talking about deformities from disease or birth defects. The key is for the sliders and the complexion options to give people as much freedom to create the face they want as possible.
The amount of grind in this game is breathtaking in comparison with the very small number of options in the character generator.
There aren't nearly enough options as-is. Extra complexion options are very welcome.
I'll ask again for a male one that doesn't have unnecessary brown facial hair stubble -- so I can make actual blonde and red-haired male characters.
Why is it that all of the adjustments are about fixing things that already look OK? Basic features like the ability to have a clean-shaven non-brown-hair stubble male are missing.
The new eyes would have been a nice thing to have with the old eyes as a selectable option. The new ones look smaller. With some male characters it makes the eyes look quite small -- especially since the eye size slider is so restrictive with certain races like Orions.
I'll also ask again for a smooth/youthful male complexion. We have aged, very haggard ("heroic"), haggard (standard), and somewhat smooth (Asian). Why can't there be a smooth complexion with the standard features -- no beard stubble?
Also, it would be highly welcome to be able to give male characters a less glum expression. The male Orions have a forced perma-frown to go with their very small eyes, which is disappointing.
Here is an example of smooth complexion and large eyes (Tom Welling):
photo 1
That photo also shows better-looking lips than what this game has. Even though he has brown hair, he doesn't have any brown stubble showing.
Here are examples of smooth non-wrinkled complexions. The model is Dan Gauthier, who appeared in the Next Gen episode "Lower Decks"
photo 1
photo 2
This is a good example of someone with large eyes (more Dan Gauthier):
photo 1
photo 2
in trek
The hip size slider should not be joined with buttock size. There need to be separate sliders.
^^ This 100%. I gave a ****storm when our characters were 'tweaked' with original Season 8, and my ruined characters are only halfway back to what they were after hours of re-tweaking what used to be my own 'perfect' looks.
Add this as additional option, because if my characters get ruined again then I am off the boat, sayonara, for real.
While I certainly like the new proposed tweaks as something additional and optional, I do not want my characters to be arbitrarily changed as they were at Season 8.
All I saw was red for weeks anytime I logged on here.
DO NOT do that again please.
More options are always better in a character creator, especially one as limited as STO's.
(example limitation: Still can't even make a true blonde-haired or red-haired male -- because of mandatory brown facial hair stubble.)
Also, if you want to improve NPCs, what happened to the handsome guy on old Risa who would actually smile sometimes?
Best answer yet.
I'm not sure what you mean by "cost". If I recall correctly, there is a small EC cost. But the primary concern is being able to restore the old look of our characters and the amount of work needed to do so. Since it's not too much work to change one or two options in drop-down menus, I believe most players would be OK with this solution.
I agree that bloat isn't a good thing, but you also need to worry about backwards compatibility. This game is 4 years old now, and backwards compatibility is one of the downsides of maintaining an old piece of software. Wholesale replacement of existing features is not necessarily the best solution.
While we have your attention, can you please get someone on the art team to look at the bug below.
Texture changes to pants:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=947041
The tailor issue demonstrated in this video is my biggest concern if you choose to go this route:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmAAU40WtMw
You rock!! I had passed on the comments a number of you brought up about problems but we were having troubles figuring out exactly what was being described. The video is fantastic. THanks!
Been having these issues for months now with TWO of my costume slots of my Klingon. I can also not 1) wear, 2) rename, 3) modify them.
Also: The Off-duty/Uniform/FOrmal wear/etc. button has to be moved somewhere more sensible than the "Head" section. It should be in the first page of a costume, or below each costume's mini-preview in the general list.
STOWiki admin.
Very, very happy to! (sorry about the low volume levels)
Thank you for taking the time to talk to us and check out our concerns. Seriously, it means a lot to us! Thanks for all of your work!
While you're futzing around in character creation, would it be possible to revisit other little broken things, like the one messed up Orion Round shoulder pad or the long-time broken "be'veS" KDF Honor Guard costume option?
I Support Disco | Disco is Love | Disco is Life
Yes, the Marauder Tier 4 reward. If you managed to fix that, CrypticJoeJing, I believe the whole of KDF would worship you as a returned Kahless.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
Um Yes. This guy.
Ah yes, this bug. I have had this for almost a year and a half now.
There are actually two different bugs.
1. One of the "Save Outfit" buttons in the tailor is broken. If you try to load any outfit saved using that button, you will get the default settings and not the settings you saved. Note that there are actually two "Save Outfit" buttons in the tailor. The broken "Save Outfit" button is next to the "Exit" button when you first enter the tailor. The working "Save Outfit" button is under the "Head", "Body", and "Uniform" tabs after you click "Modify". I reported this bug long ago, when Legacy of Romulus was still beta on Tribble.
2. Sometimes, when you load a saved outfit, the tailor resets all options to default. Note that this happens with any saved outfit, not just the ones saved by broken "Saved Outfit" button described above. However, if you simply click "Cancel", click "Modify" again, and try to reload the outfit, then it suddenly works. It just fails on the first try.
This bug doesn't occur every time, but I see it most often when I load an outfit in one slot (captain or boff) and then load an outfit in another slot right after.
While we are on the topic of tailor bugs, I have several that date back from the Legacy of Romulus beta or even before.
Broken "Save Outfit" button
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=661331
Wrong zoom in saved costume files
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=661321
Tailor shows armor parts for uneditable boffs
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=675991
Reset and randomize buttons in the tailor have incorrect tooltips
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=645241
There was an update to the legs in Season 8, and there have been several threads about that topic already. crypticjoejing has said that the regular skirt thighs need to be thinner in order to prevent clipping. I still see several inconsistencies with the legs.
1. The thighs for the TOS skirts look thicker from the front and back than from the sides. It is hard for me to choose a leg-bulk setting for those skirts, because what looks right from the sides doesn't look right from the front and back, and vice versa.
2. Different tight pants have different legs. The best way to see this is to go through the tight-pants options on a Romulan female. Or you can just look at the boffs Satra and Veril. By default, both Satra and Veril have their leg-bulk slider set exactly in the middle. But Satra has much thicker thighs than Veril, because she is wearing different pants.
And just what is that suppose to mean?
There are several androgynous races that do not feature it, and it would be nice to try to create them (J'naii and Hermat for example).
I find it a bit silly that all male faces of humaoid type feature stubble. Has the razor been outlawed???
There are already several posts on this thread about it, and it is quite frustrating and limiting for Character Creation!
Pretty much this.
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