Ok, Not going to read this whole thread, so sorry if this is already discussed.
That said, One of my concerns with updating, especially the Humaniod 2 and Complexion 2, is that this is how I get a "young" character.
I am talking somewhere between 18 -25 yrs old. Most of the combinations especially on the male side tend to look like someone who is about 40 or so old. Not saying that is a bad thing. People should have the characters they want.
But getting anyone who looks relatively young in STO is pretty much limited to the Humaniod 2 complexion 2 variety.
While I am all for improving the complexion to look more like it is intended, if that means loosing my 20 something character look, because I don't necessarily want an Asian look. I would dislike that.
I didn't post in this thread at first because I simply don't use this particular look on my chars (bar possibly some Boffs).
But whatever, at least it is something I'll encounter in the game (if it goes through) and so it (distantly) concerns me.
Personally, I find the new proposed look to be somewhat artificial looking, too perfect an oval shape, almost like a doll, if a dare say. So personally, I'd rather not see the new proposed look replace the older one. As far as adding it as a new possibility (while keeping the current look) goes, I'm all for it. For me, the more possibilities in the character creator, the better.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
As has already been stated, art is subjective, and why you look at something and think it looks like steak dinner with a side of 'TRIBBLE', you need to understand that there are hundreds of people out there that have already happily paid for a side of chocolate pudding that they're quite happy to enjoy.
There are many of us who have spent years with our characters, paid hundreds- if not thousands- of dollars to develop this avatar to represent an image of our choosing. You tweak the body here or there, OK, fine. But to pull the rug out beneath the very face of our characters is just to go too far.
Almost all of my toons use the existing 'humanoid 2' head. I think it looks great. I never intended my characters to look Asian, but with the 'humanoid 1' head, I think they look to cartoony. Their eyes are so big, their proportions are so chiseled and uniform. They don't look as real as the 'humanoid 2' heads do to me. I like the way my characters look. They don't look unfinished, they don't look broken, they don't look bad. They look handsome and beautiful just as they are. And I've spent WAY too much of my time getting to develop and love them like they are.
I would be extremely upset for that to change now. It's the fact- the very identity of the characters we've created. I'd rather see anything else nerfed... but don't nerf my face.
I have to agree with the argument of, why not adding it as a new complexion. People spend quite a time to build their characters likeness (Especially if they are RP friendly like me), and when it gets changed, it's just not a good thing to do. I personally would rather have 'uglier' NPC's (Since it's subjective, hence why use of ' ' ), than see people's characters changed in a way they may not even liked.
While, if something is given as another option, it gives people actual choice. I disagree that 'more = bad' in some cases. I'd rather have a choice than to be spoon-fed something like that. In fact, I still miss the old face complexity of Style 1 head, as much as they tried to fix the plastic face look, it's still is not as good as the original, so again, the changes were forced on us, without ability to make a choice... and that is never a good thing; given that art is subjective; as it was pointed out.
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator "bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh." "Learn lots. Don't judge. Laugh for no reason. Be nice. Seek happiness."~Day[9] "Your fun isn't wrong."~LaughingTrendy
i like the improvements as well but instead of just replacing the old we should keep it wile we still have the new head. say humanoid 3.
i think we all agree we should just add it in stead of replacing it. i do agree that to mush will be confusing but 2 little and we will all still be at ground one .all the characters will still look the same and if its wide spread oh 'yeah still the same'
your goal as you said is to change NPC not us as the player .yeah humanoid 2 is not good for all and may look ugly to some but there's some who made it work and the "ew, how can I fix this and make it look better?" ITS APART OF LIFE I GO THREW IT ALL THE TIME LOL. what is the reason for replacing instead of adding. is it that if you add the new look instead of changing it your gonna have to go threw every single npc and redesign them .just saying
why not like a 4 humanoids head types and 3 Complexion and call it quiets there. gives a little more oppositions and keeps the player at charterer creator for hours saying i want the best on unorthodox, sexy ,ugly look .
now i don't want to sound rude but the real reason i want to know is why post for feedback when the changes were final?
but all in all i love the new look. i own 5 characters and im running out of ideas foe bridge officers i think im starting to have twins and family related officers
Thanks for all the comments - figured this thread would generate some attention.
First for clarification...the new assets have *not* been introduced to tribble yet.
As for an African head...can't comment on that yet
But for the head and texture on this thread, the *BIGGEST* reason to replace the old one is it automatically improves the dozens or even hundred or so NPC's that are using the current head. Boom, pretty widespread improvement to the visuals of the STO game.
THAT ABOVE IS THE PRIMARY REASON to replace the existing assets.
Glad to provide the input. As far as the NPC assets, go for it if you guys think it is best. I have no heartburn over changes to things I don't directly (or indirectly) control.
However, a side effect that is a bit more controversial as proven in this thread, is it also automatically "improves" player characters that use that model and/or texture as well. We expected that may not be viewed as an improvement, which is why we are posting here to test the waters.
At the risk of sparking a game and marketing philosophy debate...
*Personally* (not necessarily a reflection of Cryptic's view) I don't think "more is always better".
Specifically, bloating character creation with options isn't necessarily an improvement.
Metaphorically, if you're adding "more" to a steak dinner, and "more" turns out to be TRIBBLE, more don't make it better. Similarly, adding ice cream sprinkles to TRIBBLE ain't gonna help much either. :P
My philosophy is more like, "a lot of *good* stuff is always better".
And that is where we part ways. I don't think of the character creator as a steak dinner. I think of it more as a buffet. Just because you don't like the fried Okra or the collared greens doesn't mean you have to put them on your plate. You can choose any combination including none. There are several assets in the game that I choose not to use. No one is forcing me to use them(yet).
That said, I would prefer a healthy selection of assets that encourage and enable players (and devs) to *easily* and *intentionally* make appealing characters (and "appealing" doesn't always mean beautiful as I discuss later). Too many arguably unnecessary variables can actually make it harder to find the ones that work well together.
That way, the next time any of you make a new character, or edit a BOFF...or a brand new player starts STO for the first time...you pop into character create and are excited about all the cool, great looking options and *don't* think to yourself "ew, how can I fix this and make it look better?"
And that is the responsibility that comes with choice. The players have to experiment and find out for yourself what works best. Now, the Devs can help this by creating more pre-generated templates in the tailor that they (the Devs) like and add them so that players who want a quick choice can select, while the more detailed minded people like myself can use as a starting point, and then go into greater details to modify.
Honestly (again, my own opinion) I think the old model and texture at default settings look bad. By "bad", I know not all characters should look handsome or beautiful. Obviously, many characters should look aged, worn, ugly, etc. In fact, I love making those characters - they have a ton of personality. But the features that achieve that image should look intentional.
The assets in question here, to me, look unpolished and unfinished. Even with spending a good chunk of time of facial bone scaling, adding make-up, etc - at most, only acceptable results are achieved. The only way I'd use that model and texture would be for a tired old worn background civilian NPC, definitely not for one of my hero captains, BOFF's, or primary contacts. The male version is even worse, but that's a topic for another time.
And yes...I know all too well that plenty of NPC's and contacts are already using those assets - it reflects on the art of STO and I think it could be better. So I would rather purge the old assets. Make many characters instantly better, and make it easier to make good looking characters moving forward.
Finally, I close with the typical political comment: art is subjective. So you are free to disagree with me and you're more than welcome to explain how perfect the existing assets are.
Again, that's why we posted here with examples - to gauge the response. Our goal is to ensure players view the the art as a whole in Star Trek positively.
As you said, art is subjective, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Again, all the more reason why the assets should be retained for player use, even if it will no longer be used by NPCs. As you even pointed out, there COULD be an opportunity down the road where it MIGHT be appropriate to use those assets to represent a unique character.
I would be all for the change if we could have some means of nose variety.
Right now only the Asian nose looks African... and there's no way to do an Asian with a sharp nose.
More is NOT always better, sure. We can get carried away.
1. A major improvement IMHO would be to reduce sliders that cause excessive clipping (like bust) and increase the range of species specific sliders to what Aliens can do, save for the weird cranial and torso stuff. Real people have more irregular faces than STO allows for pre-made species. Aliens can have distinct faces but I think humans/Klingons/etc need this.
2. Noses are a sticking point with me.
3. I think having the age effects on one overlay instead of a few causes people not to use them, which homogenizes characters. If I could add just mouth lines or just a certain forehead type of wrinkle, I would. But the age overlays add them all at once and given all or nothing, most of the faces look bad to me. For Ferengi and Cardassians, there is NO distinctiveness because their species complexion is only in one variety.
That way, the next time any of you make a new character, or edit a BOFF...or a brand new player starts STO for the first time...you pop into character create and are excited about all the cool, great looking options and *don't* think to yourself "ew, how can I fix this and make it look better?"
I can only speak for myself, but this is what happened to me when the new female faces were introduced a few weeks back. My female characters looked good to me, barely ever edited their facial features over the years they have existed, until the facial "improvements" happened.
All the sudden they didn't look right anymore, they didn't look good to me and I did spend quite some time at the tailor, trying to fix what was done to them by the overhaul.
Ok, to avoid the Wrath of Khan from some of you guys, looks like it will probably be better to make the improvements far more subtle.
We've got another pass, this time with male and female - very little tweaks here and there. The geo for the head has not been changed other than miniscule vert shifting to tone down the sharpest points. Cleaned up some of the texture map wonkiness, added more definition and detail in key places, and more color depth to the skin tone.
All told, it just looks like increased resolution.
In the mean time, the previous (more drastic) female head and texture revisions that were shown here will probably get added as additional options down the road.
In the mean time, the previous (more drastic) female head and texture revisions that were shown here will probably get added as additional options down the road.
I really like the 'drastic' options. While I think it's a good compromise that existing characters will have a nice but not-too-extreme improvement, I really, really look forward to the redone options you've presented. I'd hate if the (understandable) reluctance of a few to change got in the way of the options that many have expressed a fondness for.
And for that matter, why not go ahead and upgrade the NPC's to the 'drastic' model when it's done? It can't be too hard for people to go to their costumes and switch the face settings if the old one is pretty much replaced, but a legacy copy is added as an additional option.
Take a look at my Foundry missions! Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
Ok, to avoid the Wrath of Khan from some of you guys, looks like it will probably be better to make the improvements far more subtle.
We've got another pass, this time with male and female - very little tweaks here and there. The geo for the head has not been changed other than miniscule vert shifting to tone down the sharpest points. Cleaned up some of the texture map wonkiness, added more definition and detail in key places, and more color depth to the skin tone.
All told, it just looks like increased resolution.
In the mean time, the previous (more drastic) female head and texture revisions that were shown here will probably get added as additional options down the road.
You could always rename the old Texture and Head as Humanoid 2B and add the new Head 2 as 2a and the default so NPCs look better. Just an idea thrown out there.
Ok, to avoid the Wrath of Khan from some of you guys, looks like it will probably be better to make the improvements far more subtle.
We've got another pass, this time with male and female - very little tweaks here and there. The geo for the head has not been changed other than miniscule vert shifting to tone down the sharpest points. Cleaned up some of the texture map wonkiness, added more definition and detail in key places, and more color depth to the skin tone.
All told, it just looks like increased resolution.
In the mean time, the previous (more drastic) female head and texture revisions that were shown here will probably get added as additional options down the road.
I think your original proposal was really good, it was very realistic. I would have preferred the "drastic" improvements over the "subtle" one...
I much prefer the newer 'subtle' version. Very well done.
I also liked the original one too, and think it would be great if it could get added as a Humanoid 3. Humans need more options as they are probably the most common species in the game.
more subtle? if anything, i think the changes to the asian face need to be quite substantial. there are certain aspects of the asian head that are impossible to do currently:
- the eyes are too deep set, and cannot be changed. asian eyes are normally set shallower, thus no upper fold is necessary.
- the eyes are too close together, and cannot be changed.
- the face is too narrow, particularly at the cheekbones.
- the face is too elongated when viewed from profile.
Ok, to avoid the Wrath of Khan from some of you guys, looks like it will probably be better to make the improvements far more subtle.
We've got another pass, this time with male and female - very little tweaks here and there. The geo for the head has not been changed other than miniscule vert shifting to tone down the sharpest points. Cleaned up some of the texture map wonkiness, added more definition and detail in key places, and more color depth to the skin tone.
All told, it just looks like increased resolution.
In the mean time, the previous (more drastic) female head and texture revisions that were shown here will probably get added as additional options down the road.
That seems ideal. Shouldn't harm existing characters. And if you add the 'drastic' version as another option, it's a win-win.
TOIVA, Toi Vaxx, Toia Vix, Toveg, T'vritha, To Vrax: Bring in the Allegiance class. Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider. Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Personally, I liked the more drastic changes shown in the first post more. What bothered me with head2/complexion2 was the wierdness that happened around the upper lip, and that seems pretty much gone. I approve.
But, I can also relate with anyone not wanting to see their faces 'nerfed'.
What I see as the most elegant solution is to see the assets of head2/complexion2 replaced with the new proposed ones in order to give the much needed facelift crypticjoejing feels the game needs for the NPCs using these assets. The current ones could then be kept in, as a head2b/complexion2b.
This seems like the most convenient solution for the Devs, which will ruffle the fewest feathers. Anyone not liking the new look can just fix it in a short visit to the Tailor, switching to 2b.
Ok, to avoid the Wrath of Khan from some of you guys, looks like it will probably be better to make the improvements far more subtle.
We've got another pass, this time with male and female - very little tweaks here and there. The geo for the head has not been changed other than miniscule vert shifting to tone down the sharpest points. Cleaned up some of the texture map wonkiness, added more definition and detail in key places, and more color depth to the skin tone.
All told, it just looks like increased resolution.
In the mean time, the previous (more drastic) female head and texture revisions that were shown here will probably get added as additional options down the road.
I'm okay with the new proposed female head and texture.
But why does the male look like Keanu Reeves? I'm just sayin'.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Ok, to avoid the Wrath of Khan from some of you guys, looks like it will probably be better to make the improvements far more subtle.
We've got another pass, this time with male and female - very little tweaks here and there. The geo for the head has not been changed other than miniscule vert shifting to tone down the sharpest points. Cleaned up some of the texture map wonkiness, added more definition and detail in key places, and more color depth to the skin tone.
All told, it just looks like increased resolution.
In the mean time, the previous (more drastic) female head and texture revisions that were shown here will probably get added as additional options down the road.
I can except this. it looks largely unchanged, so I am fine with it as I, in essence, still get the look I want on my toons.
And I am fine with having a more "drastic" option available for people who want someone who is more noticeably asian in appearance.
Comments
That said, One of my concerns with updating, especially the Humaniod 2 and Complexion 2, is that this is how I get a "young" character.
I am talking somewhere between 18 -25 yrs old. Most of the combinations especially on the male side tend to look like someone who is about 40 or so old. Not saying that is a bad thing. People should have the characters they want.
But getting anyone who looks relatively young in STO is pretty much limited to the Humaniod 2 complexion 2 variety.
While I am all for improving the complexion to look more like it is intended, if that means loosing my 20 something character look, because I don't necessarily want an Asian look. I would dislike that.
But whatever, at least it is something I'll encounter in the game (if it goes through) and so it (distantly) concerns me.
Personally, I find the new proposed look to be somewhat artificial looking, too perfect an oval shape, almost like a doll, if a dare say. So personally, I'd rather not see the new proposed look replace the older one. As far as adding it as a new possibility (while keeping the current look) goes, I'm all for it. For me, the more possibilities in the character creator, the better.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
There are many of us who have spent years with our characters, paid hundreds- if not thousands- of dollars to develop this avatar to represent an image of our choosing. You tweak the body here or there, OK, fine. But to pull the rug out beneath the very face of our characters is just to go too far.
Almost all of my toons use the existing 'humanoid 2' head. I think it looks great. I never intended my characters to look Asian, but with the 'humanoid 1' head, I think they look to cartoony. Their eyes are so big, their proportions are so chiseled and uniform. They don't look as real as the 'humanoid 2' heads do to me. I like the way my characters look. They don't look unfinished, they don't look broken, they don't look bad. They look handsome and beautiful just as they are. And I've spent WAY too much of my time getting to develop and love them like they are.
I would be extremely upset for that to change now. It's the fact- the very identity of the characters we've created. I'd rather see anything else nerfed... but don't nerf my face.
While, if something is given as another option, it gives people actual choice. I disagree that 'more = bad' in some cases. I'd rather have a choice than to be spoon-fed something like that. In fact, I still miss the old face complexity of Style 1 head, as much as they tried to fix the plastic face look, it's still is not as good as the original, so again, the changes were forced on us, without ability to make a choice... and that is never a good thing; given that art is subjective; as it was pointed out.
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"bIghojchugh DaneH, Dumev pagh. bIghojqangbe'chugh, DuQaHlaH pagh."
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i think we all agree we should just add it in stead of replacing it. i do agree that to mush will be confusing but 2 little and we will all still be at ground one .all the characters will still look the same and if its wide spread oh 'yeah still the same'
your goal as you said is to change NPC not us as the player .yeah humanoid 2 is not good for all and may look ugly to some but there's some who made it work and the "ew, how can I fix this and make it look better?" ITS APART OF LIFE I GO THREW IT ALL THE TIME LOL. what is the reason for replacing instead of adding. is it that if you add the new look instead of changing it your gonna have to go threw every single npc and redesign them .just saying
why not like a 4 humanoids head types and 3 Complexion and call it quiets there. gives a little more oppositions and keeps the player at charterer creator for hours saying i want the best on unorthodox, sexy ,ugly look .
now i don't want to sound rude but the real reason i want to know is why post for feedback when the changes were final?
but all in all i love the new look. i own 5 characters and im running out of ideas foe bridge officers i think im starting to have twins and family related officers
Glad to provide the input. As far as the NPC assets, go for it if you guys think it is best. I have no heartburn over changes to things I don't directly (or indirectly) control.
And that is where we part ways. I don't think of the character creator as a steak dinner. I think of it more as a buffet. Just because you don't like the fried Okra or the collared greens doesn't mean you have to put them on your plate. You can choose any combination including none. There are several assets in the game that I choose not to use. No one is forcing me to use them(yet).
And that is the responsibility that comes with choice. The players have to experiment and find out for yourself what works best. Now, the Devs can help this by creating more pre-generated templates in the tailor that they (the Devs) like and add them so that players who want a quick choice can select, while the more detailed minded people like myself can use as a starting point, and then go into greater details to modify.
As you said, art is subjective, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Again, all the more reason why the assets should be retained for player use, even if it will no longer be used by NPCs. As you even pointed out, there COULD be an opportunity down the road where it MIGHT be appropriate to use those assets to represent a unique character.
Right now only the Asian nose looks African... and there's no way to do an Asian with a sharp nose.
More is NOT always better, sure. We can get carried away.
1. A major improvement IMHO would be to reduce sliders that cause excessive clipping (like bust) and increase the range of species specific sliders to what Aliens can do, save for the weird cranial and torso stuff. Real people have more irregular faces than STO allows for pre-made species. Aliens can have distinct faces but I think humans/Klingons/etc need this.
2. Noses are a sticking point with me.
3. I think having the age effects on one overlay instead of a few causes people not to use them, which homogenizes characters. If I could add just mouth lines or just a certain forehead type of wrinkle, I would. But the age overlays add them all at once and given all or nothing, most of the faces look bad to me. For Ferengi and Cardassians, there is NO distinctiveness because their species complexion is only in one variety.
Save the Humanoid 2 face!
I can only speak for myself, but this is what happened to me when the new female faces were introduced a few weeks back. My female characters looked good to me, barely ever edited their facial features over the years they have existed, until the facial "improvements" happened.
All the sudden they didn't look right anymore, they didn't look good to me and I did spend quite some time at the tailor, trying to fix what was done to them by the overhaul.
We've got another pass, this time with male and female - very little tweaks here and there. The geo for the head has not been changed other than miniscule vert shifting to tone down the sharpest points. Cleaned up some of the texture map wonkiness, added more definition and detail in key places, and more color depth to the skin tone.
All told, it just looks like increased resolution.
Female: http://imgur.com/Y4anzfx&8FqYnaP#0
Male: http://imgur.com/Y4anzfx&8FqYnaP#1
In the mean time, the previous (more drastic) female head and texture revisions that were shown here will probably get added as additional options down the road.
I really like the 'drastic' options. While I think it's a good compromise that existing characters will have a nice but not-too-extreme improvement, I really, really look forward to the redone options you've presented. I'd hate if the (understandable) reluctance of a few to change got in the way of the options that many have expressed a fondness for.
And for that matter, why not go ahead and upgrade the NPC's to the 'drastic' model when it's done? It can't be too hard for people to go to their costumes and switch the face settings if the old one is pretty much replaced, but a legacy copy is added as an additional option.
Conjoined, Re-emergence, and . . .
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I think your original proposal was really good, it was very realistic. I would have preferred the "drastic" improvements over the "subtle" one...
I also liked the original one too, and think it would be great if it could get added as a Humanoid 3. Humans need more options as they are probably the most common species in the game.
Well, aren't you just a barrel of peaches.
- the eyes are too deep set, and cannot be changed. asian eyes are normally set shallower, thus no upper fold is necessary.
- the eyes are too close together, and cannot be changed.
- the face is too narrow, particularly at the cheekbones.
- the face is too elongated when viewed from profile.
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I have to agree with you. The Original looks really good and realistic. I really want the drastic one in game.
That seems ideal. Shouldn't harm existing characters. And if you add the 'drastic' version as another option, it's a win-win.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
But, I can also relate with anyone not wanting to see their faces 'nerfed'.
What I see as the most elegant solution is to see the assets of head2/complexion2 replaced with the new proposed ones in order to give the much needed facelift crypticjoejing feels the game needs for the NPCs using these assets. The current ones could then be kept in, as a head2b/complexion2b.
This seems like the most convenient solution for the Devs, which will ruffle the fewest feathers. Anyone not liking the new look can just fix it in a short visit to the Tailor, switching to 2b.
I'm okay with the new proposed female head and texture.
But why does the male look like Keanu Reeves? I'm just sayin'.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I can except this. it looks largely unchanged, so I am fine with it as I, in essence, still get the look I want on my toons.
And I am fine with having a more "drastic" option available for people who want someone who is more noticeably asian in appearance.