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Gut Reactions: Science Destroyers
unangbangkay
Member Posts: 10 Arc User
I haven't seen a lot of word on the forums about the new ships, at least not any word that isn't drowning in a sea of "discussion" about grinding or lockboxes. Let's put aside all of that for this thread and just look at the ships themselves, and what we know about them in the hours before they all go live.
Necessary disclaimer: All these stats are subject to change, of course.
Pertinent details are below, but pretty pictures and the full stories are linked here:
Dyson Science Destroyer (Solanae, Aves, and Nov class)
Let's start with the Dyson Science Destroyers. I'll put discussion of the Hirogen ships in their own thread:
OK, we already know it's NOT a 10-console, Fleet-quality ship. Those are being saved for the three 3-packs being released next month. So, like the Odyssey Star Cruiser and Bortas Battle Cruiser before, it's best to look at these ships as "preview" versions of the final product to be sold.
Anyway, to the stats, using the Solanae (Fed) class as base:
Based on this, the closest comparison is with the 10-console, C-store Vesta, specifically the Science/surveillance variant.
As you can see, even in its free version the Dyson Science Destroyer (DSD) has slightly more hull strength (28.5k vs 27.9k) than the Vesta, but a lower shield modifier (1.3 vs 1.35), lower crew (400 vs 750, though the Romulan and KDF variants have higher crew), and a tiny bit more impulse mod (.01 difference). They have the same base turn rate and inertia rating.
The Science Vesta has one more Science console (5 vs. 4) and the Tac and Eng vestas fall along similar lines (4 vs 3 tac consoles and 3 vs 2 eng consoles).
In officer seating they also differ, with the Vesta having 2 universal boff slots (Ltc and En), and the free DSD having none.
Of course, this is the free version we're talking about. Assuming the C-store version is also a fleet-grade, 10-console ship, then we'll likely see one or more Boff stations turn Universal (I predict the En and Lt Sci slots will be changed), and see similar additions of relevant console slots for each of the 3-pack variants.
I predict that the DSD will have a slight advantage in Hull and possibly Shield strength over the Vesta (assuming that it will get the standard Fleet upgrade of +10% health and shields), but slightly less flexibility in bridge officer seating. It will also be able to improve its turn rate, speed, weapons, and tactical power set at the cost of science abilities by activating Tactical Mode (which is an innate power and requires no special console).
However, the Vesta's own advantage is in a slightly more flexible core bridge seating (assuming Cryptic only makes the DSD's lieutenant stations universal), as well as the presence of a hangar from which to launch runabouts and fighters. Furthermore, the Vesta can mount Auxiliary Dual Heavy Cannons, which give it the ability to inflict forward-arc damage without compromising too much on auxiliary power levels.
When activating tactical mode, the following occurs:
Access to Dual Heavy Proton Cannons is an interesting decision, as the DSD seems well-tailored to builds that somehow involve the use of the Protonic Arsenal Set. A sample build could have Scatter Volley or Rapid Fire III as the Commander-level tactical power, while the rest of the weapons in the fore arc are 2 Protonic Polaron beams and the Experimental Proton Weapon (which is compatible with Beam and Cannon powers). That way a captain in science mode could use beam skills while in science mode, while accessing some powerful forward firepower when switching to tactical.
Unfortunately while access to high-level tactical powers like Rapid Fire III and Rank III Attack Patterns is nice, the DSD's performance as an "escort" is suboptimal. If the current rumors of the DSD's tactical mode turn rate are true (it's 14, supposedly) it'll have less maneuverability than any current Destroyer, Raptor or Escort. And of course there's the problem of what to put in the rear arc. Should players put in turrets to maximize forward firepower at the cost of Subsystem Targeting, or beams to do "escort-like" things at the cost of diluting their damage output when in tactical mode?
In the end, I see an interesting time ahead for science players, especially once Secondary Deflectors are rolled out to all Science Vessels, making that distinguishing trait moot. The Romulans finally have a science-based alternative to the Ha'Nom, and the Klingons get their first 3-pack ship in a very long while, and a more credible alternative to the Science-tweaked Bird of Prey and Varanus Support vessel.
For Federation players the choice will be less clear-cut. Should they choose the vesta and gain an advantage in auxiliary power and the help of hangar pets, or the Dyson Science Destroyer and gain the flexibility to "go escort" should the need arise?
There is, however, a last wrinkle in this saga: The Solanae Overcharged Warp Core, a piece of the 4-piece Solanae Hybrid Technologies set, which will NOT be available after the Anniversary Event ends. This has caused much consternation for some players who like to be "complete", but let's look at the 4-piece bonus:
As you can see, like the 3rd piece of the Obelisk set (which is locked up in the Lobi store), it's not much, and definitely not essential. At best it's an enhanced version of Reverse Shield Polarity that reduces your damage and mobility. Not the greatest tradeoff for a science vessel that will need speed to avoid damage. In short, it can be done without for those who feel like sitting out the event in "protest". Besides completionist instincts, the only good reason to grind out the warp core if you otherwise hate the Anniversary event is if the warp core has a cool visual effect, which I doubt, or if you don't have a decent warp core already.
Necessary disclaimer: All these stats are subject to change, of course.
Pertinent details are below, but pretty pictures and the full stories are linked here:
Dyson Science Destroyer (Solanae, Aves, and Nov class)
Let's start with the Dyson Science Destroyers. I'll put discussion of the Hirogen ships in their own thread:
OK, we already know it's NOT a 10-console, Fleet-quality ship. Those are being saved for the three 3-packs being released next month. So, like the Odyssey Star Cruiser and Bortas Battle Cruiser before, it's best to look at these ships as "preview" versions of the final product to be sold.
Anyway, to the stats, using the Solanae (Fed) class as base:
Hull Strength: 28,500
Shield Modifier: 1.3
Crew: 400
Weapons: 3 Fore, 3 Aft (+Solanae Dual Heavy Proton Cannons in Tactical Mode)
Device Slots: 3
Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Ensign Tactical, 1 Lieutenant Commander Tactical, 1 Lieutenant Engineering, 1 Lieutenant Science, 1 Commander Science
Console Modifications: 3 Tactical, 2 Engineering, 4 Science
Base Turn Rate: 12 degrees per second
Impulse Modifier: 0.16
Inertia: 50
Based on this, the closest comparison is with the 10-console, C-store Vesta, specifically the Science/surveillance variant.
As you can see, even in its free version the Dyson Science Destroyer (DSD) has slightly more hull strength (28.5k vs 27.9k) than the Vesta, but a lower shield modifier (1.3 vs 1.35), lower crew (400 vs 750, though the Romulan and KDF variants have higher crew), and a tiny bit more impulse mod (.01 difference). They have the same base turn rate and inertia rating.
The Science Vesta has one more Science console (5 vs. 4) and the Tac and Eng vestas fall along similar lines (4 vs 3 tac consoles and 3 vs 2 eng consoles).
In officer seating they also differ, with the Vesta having 2 universal boff slots (Ltc and En), and the free DSD having none.
Of course, this is the free version we're talking about. Assuming the C-store version is also a fleet-grade, 10-console ship, then we'll likely see one or more Boff stations turn Universal (I predict the En and Lt Sci slots will be changed), and see similar additions of relevant console slots for each of the 3-pack variants.
I predict that the DSD will have a slight advantage in Hull and possibly Shield strength over the Vesta (assuming that it will get the standard Fleet upgrade of +10% health and shields), but slightly less flexibility in bridge officer seating. It will also be able to improve its turn rate, speed, weapons, and tactical power set at the cost of science abilities by activating Tactical Mode (which is an innate power and requires no special console).
However, the Vesta's own advantage is in a slightly more flexible core bridge seating (assuming Cryptic only makes the DSD's lieutenant stations universal), as well as the presence of a hangar from which to launch runabouts and fighters. Furthermore, the Vesta can mount Auxiliary Dual Heavy Cannons, which give it the ability to inflict forward-arc damage without compromising too much on auxiliary power levels.
When activating tactical mode, the following occurs:
Enables Dual Heavy Proton Cannon
+15 Weapon Power
+Turn Rate
+Impulse Speed
+Inertia
Lt. Commander Tactical Bridge Officer seat is upgrade to Commander Tactical
Commander Science Bridge Officer seat is downgraded to Lt. Commander Science
Secondary Deflector is disabled
Sensor Analysis is disabled
Subsystem Targeting is disabled
-15 Aux Power
Access to Dual Heavy Proton Cannons is an interesting decision, as the DSD seems well-tailored to builds that somehow involve the use of the Protonic Arsenal Set. A sample build could have Scatter Volley or Rapid Fire III as the Commander-level tactical power, while the rest of the weapons in the fore arc are 2 Protonic Polaron beams and the Experimental Proton Weapon (which is compatible with Beam and Cannon powers). That way a captain in science mode could use beam skills while in science mode, while accessing some powerful forward firepower when switching to tactical.
Unfortunately while access to high-level tactical powers like Rapid Fire III and Rank III Attack Patterns is nice, the DSD's performance as an "escort" is suboptimal. If the current rumors of the DSD's tactical mode turn rate are true (it's 14, supposedly) it'll have less maneuverability than any current Destroyer, Raptor or Escort. And of course there's the problem of what to put in the rear arc. Should players put in turrets to maximize forward firepower at the cost of Subsystem Targeting, or beams to do "escort-like" things at the cost of diluting their damage output when in tactical mode?
In the end, I see an interesting time ahead for science players, especially once Secondary Deflectors are rolled out to all Science Vessels, making that distinguishing trait moot. The Romulans finally have a science-based alternative to the Ha'Nom, and the Klingons get their first 3-pack ship in a very long while, and a more credible alternative to the Science-tweaked Bird of Prey and Varanus Support vessel.
For Federation players the choice will be less clear-cut. Should they choose the vesta and gain an advantage in auxiliary power and the help of hangar pets, or the Dyson Science Destroyer and gain the flexibility to "go escort" should the need arise?
There is, however, a last wrinkle in this saga: The Solanae Overcharged Warp Core, a piece of the 4-piece Solanae Hybrid Technologies set, which will NOT be available after the Anniversary Event ends. This has caused much consternation for some players who like to be "complete", but let's look at the 4-piece bonus:
4 Piece Bonus ? Advanced Metaphasic Shields
Toggle (15 second duration)
Outgoing damage is reduced by 20%
Flight Speed and Turn Rate is reduced
Large Bonus Damage Resistance Rating
+50 Shield Power
Converts 50% of incoming energy damage into shield healing
Immunity to Teleport
As you can see, like the 3rd piece of the Obelisk set (which is locked up in the Lobi store), it's not much, and definitely not essential. At best it's an enhanced version of Reverse Shield Polarity that reduces your damage and mobility. Not the greatest tradeoff for a science vessel that will need speed to avoid damage. In short, it can be done without for those who feel like sitting out the event in "protest". Besides completionist instincts, the only good reason to grind out the warp core if you otherwise hate the Anniversary event is if the warp core has a cool visual effect, which I doubt, or if you don't have a decent warp core already.
Post edited by unangbangkay on
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Comments
Could be an interesting ship, but I think it trades too much for its gimicks.
Here's hoping that the final layout of the science focused variant in the $50 pack has 5 science consoles, 3 tactical, and 2 engineering. That would essentially make it the "romulan vesta", correct?
Odan Brota (Science Officer): Captain of a 28k DPS Scryer Intel Science Vessel, U.S.S. Kepler
Patiently waiting for a Romulan Science Vessel
Indeed, I have a Sci vesta and no regrets, and I'm not even a Sci character myself
It's also worthwhile to compare to a Vesta that is NOT using the Aux cannons. I know a few players who prefer their Vestas with Rom plasma or Polaron, so the power advantage afforded by aux cannons is null in those types of builds, which should make for a more interesting "pure science" comparison.
It's worth pointing out that Carriers and Birds-of-Prey, which are currently the primary KDF Science vessels outside the Varanus, will NOT receive the Secondary Deflector. And while the new details about secondary deflectors make them less exciting than the hoped-for ability to equip two MAIN deflectors, I think they'll be an attraction for science-focused KDF types.
And yes, I do predict that the science variant of the DSD will have 5 science consoles, making it the Romulan (and Klingon, really) "Vesta" equivalent. In fact I'd bet a few Zen that the Tactical, Science, and Engineering variants of the DSD will have exactly the same console layouts as the Vesta line, i.e. 2eng/4sci/4tac, 2eng/5sci/3tac and 3eng/3sci/3tac.
If that's the case, I think the Tac DSD will be the most attractive to the majority of players, since the DSD's escort mode gives it more potential to truly leverage tactical damage consoles.
More likely the other way around. Dyson "Protonic" consoles are utter TRIBBLE because they give only HALF the damage bonus as a normal tactical console, then add a little minor protonic boost on top. Since there are no Protonic weapons damage types yet for space (other than the idiotic voth proc), there are no consoles for it.
You would be greatly hurting your build, lowering your bonus from consoles by half, if you ran protonic consoles. On top of that, they still wouldn't add up to a single console's worth of boost to the proton-based hard-coded DHC.
Folks will simply avoid the ship IMO. There are too many compromises. You want a sci-heavy ship? Fleet Kamarag/Fleet Support. Far cheaper, far easier to get and without the grind and pay of the dyson destroyers. Or the mirror Negh/cheyennes, which have really decent boff setups too!
One of the things I liked in my Rom Vet ship was the ability to switch modes when necessary. When in tact mode I'd blow cooldowns until I was becoming weakened and then switch back to absorb enemy shields for a recharge or use a rom ship skill to heal. I did the same in my Fed vet ship. I'm planning on buying the three pack because science has been a bit lacking in pure science ships (as in ships that were not carriers or healers) for a long time now.
I'm also hoping that the new event will have something valuable to add to the ships for the currency we're gathering that will be worthit.
As I see it as a sci career/sci ship captain since the announcement of making sci ships have secondary deflectors like they should, the only thing left they have to fix on the science side are the plethora of space skills that have needed repair for years now as well as an adjustment to how certain skills work beyond the 99 skill bonus basic skill assignment affects certain skills (like the pushback rather than damage when using all part gens on a ship with tractor beam repulsors similar to what they fixed in GWIII)
from a casual PVE pov even the ones not from the Cstore would be a welcome addition to the game.
Altho not sure what the set bonuses might be for having all three ships from the Cstore.
Edit: Just read the set bonuses from the mission. Looks pretty good, I wonder what the Cstore ships might have , just higher stats? hmmm
There are some fun possibilities like adding 2 tetryon bonuses to essentially make it almost a 4 tac tetryon console ship. Add to that a lot of flow caps, and you have a shield busting ship.
You could go full on flow caps and make a drain build out of this. Throw in 3 deflector officer doffs now that they're fixed and spam the sci drain powers that now give you back shields.
The ship is pretty nice, you just have to build it towards its intended use. The 3 part bonus is a nice free heal.
On top of the grind ship, you have to replay the FE several times to get the gear as well.
The CStore versions will be just like the Vesta pack avail... though not sure if the consoles coming with them will be worth the whole pack or not. I imagine that it will have its own 3 set bonus like the Vesta consoles ontop of the ones in the FE.
I frankly want the 2nd Deflector system in my Vesta now. It might also bring out the other Fleet grade ships like the Nova out of Drydock.
Other than that, IMO it's a gimmick ship and too full of compromises compared to other existing ships we have to choose from.
Science Destroyer stats compared to Recon Sci Vessel:
+ 1500 hull
+ 50 crew
- 1 turn rate
+ 0.01 impulse modifier
+ Can equip Dual Cannons
+ Tactical Mode
However, as much as I want to get my hands on that ship, I'm flying Fleet Recon, so I'll still have to test if it's useful for me to throw away Fleet bonuses to fly Science Destroyer. Maybe C-Store version...
For the build, I'm in doubt between 2 builds:
1) 2 AP DHC Fore, AP Omni-beam and turret aft, with either DHC for + KCB aft or Grav Torpedo fore + AP Turret aft combo, playing to the both strengths as an escort and science vessel and still utilizing Subsystem Targeting abilities
2) Pure Tetryon or Polaron based beamboat with Tricobalt or Gravimetric torpedo, playing on its drainboat strengths.
And this is why I'm not putting resources into the new ships. That's my gut reaction
Really, ok, because I found flying it against the mission enemies a breeze and that set up is hardly optimised.
Not correct.
You can even see the consoles the sets will come with, the mission ship has them equipped.
That's a massive ripoff. Paying $50 for a set of ships to NOT get the full set?
weapons slots fore 4
weaponslots reae 3
consoles 4 tac 2 engenerring 4 science
1 special console universal which must be plased in one of the ten console slots
allows to switch on tac mode which plus 10 to weapons and acts as launcher of protonic burst projectile from secondary deflector or in science mode allows for targeting subsystems and gives a boost to space sscience powers and allows secondarydeflector to fire a beam that causes a gravity well to form on multiple targets. 3 minute cooldown between useson both modes weapons
As the seventy-fourth Rule of Acquisition clearly states, knowledge equals profit. And I am a very rich Ferengi.
Design wise, please let the C-Store version come with a different saucer type. If I could get that and a change of hull material types, I'd probably fly it quite often.
The CStore version might have a more pleasing design... but just in case I'll be doing the same thing and load up my tac Vesta with the 2nd deflector when that is rolled out to all science ships.
That's not really a good indicator of how useful the ship is for everything else outside of solo missions.
And you know, for solo missions, you could rock them like a hurricane in your Miranda.
There's the protonic polaron cannon from rep, and now the added cannon in tactical mode, so the dyson tac consoles are getting closer to being worth it
I did and once they finish patching Tuvok in as my new XO I'm sure the shard will be back up :cool:
That being said, why is a level-40 'freebie' ship being compared to a level-50 c-store ship? Of course the Vesta is going to be the better choice. Had the anniversary DSDs been comparable to level-50 vessels, the 3-packs would then have to be an upgrade, thus better just about everything else out there. Now, when comparing the DSDs to other level-40 ships, they're about what one would expect, with some extra tricks thrown in (especially for the Nov and Aves, sensor analysis + cloak + DHCs make for one hell of an alpha boost).
Pics of the console tooltips (and icons) for what is on the ship, these are probably the consoles that will be on the C-Store 3-pack ships. Presumably the mission ship is the Tactical C-Store version, with it having 4 Tac consoles.
I've only been able to play the mission once, but I can't see much reason to run the ship outside of tactical mode for most PvE content, except perhaps as an emergency for the shield enhancements the secondary deflector gives. That may change with the other secondary deflectors, depending on what they do.
Full new FE space set, combined with the Dyson Weapon set, and the console set from the paid ships.
Add in a bunch of proton damage consoles and away we go. Might be a filthy filthy build, maybe a super cheesy worthless one, i might try it either way.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's like you didn't read the end of my opening post and went straight to bashing.
The 4-piece set bonus is almost literally a slightly improved version of Reverse Shield Polarity that cuts your mobility and outgoing damage. It's as useless as the 3-piece set bonus from the full Obelisk set (the one that's locked up with the Advanced Obelisk). It's about as useful as the Emission-Seeking Torpedo console (i.e. not at all).
I'm not going to disagree that it's not an especially savory move by Cryptic to gate access in this way, but to say it's intentionally hobbling the C-store versions for anyone who doesn't participate in the event is nothing short of laughable.
Protonic is only the PROC damage type. Polaron is the weapon damage type. You need POLARON consoles to boost those weapons. The only actual space weapon that is of the damage type "proton" is this new hard-coded DHC. So running the dyson +protonic consoles is going to hamstring yourself and you'll reduce a LOT of your potential damage boost from tac consoles.