No his point is valid. The time frame he mentioned SS was broken and made targeting jump... so there where cheese teams running 4-5 copies of SS with 3-4 science ships.
It may not be bugged anymore, still the best counter to a team with to much faw... SS and SS and some more SS. Throw in some GW to pull all those fawing a2b cruisers into a nice tight ball... drop the scrambles... and watch them either not use there buffs and die... or faw each other to death.
There are counters to faw heavy teams and they are annoying in general... which is what He is talking about... adjust faw to a reasonable level... and the annoying sci team counter has less reason to exist.
so being able to destroy 2 healers at the same time with 1 scimitar is ok.Good for you now go join that boot camp.
so being able to destroy 2 healers at the same time with 1 scimitar is ok.Good for you now go join that boot camp.
Where did I say that ?
I think I said faw needs to be toned down... which would make it less likely that premades would go Full Scitard. Is that not the point you where trying to make ?
Its chicken egg isn't it... All the sci spam, its annoying and most of us choose to stop running it... after the last overpowered version of faw was changed. Seeing as its back... well best defense vs to much faw... is to present a ton of targets and be annoying.
Have to disagree with you there. FAW is the only Zero Risk weapons buff. fundamentally what it does, is create a "Disco ball of death" that covers a 20 kilometer diameter (10K Radius) sphere.
CRF, Beam Overload, Torpedo High Yeild, Cannon Scatter Volley, even Torpedo spread require you to at least position yourself to make the shot. FAW doesn't.
there's neither timing, nor tactics involved in using it-you keybind the buff, and circle in your Fedball or park, and it does all the targeting for you, you don't even need to move.
even laying mines requires some use of tactics, but FAW doesn't require that much.
everything gets a drawback-CSV and CRF pretty much require you to be pointed at the target, THY and Torp spread-same thing, you have to AT LEAST be pointed at the target, approaching it, or following it, or whatever, a manueverable opponent can get into a side arc at a given range and they're pretty much safe, while Beam Overload drains your juice unless you're overbuilt, and has accuracy issues-and only applies to one weapon at a time.
(i.e. you have eight beams, you use BO2, you get ONE beam that's in 'overload'-the rest are firing normally, or juice drops so low they don't fire at all.)
cSV's area gets wider at the far end of the cone-but you have damage-drop-off to deal with-which beams don't have, and it's a cone, your opfor can move into an area where the hits are lighter, and less frequent. Not so with FAW.
BFAW doesn't have arc restrictions and it doesn't have damage drop-off, so the trade ends up being it doesn't crit. It's a TRADE OFF.
BEam fire at will has the same fire density at 10 kilometers, that it has at 5 kilometers, which is the same as it is at 0 kilometers. does the same amount of damage at all ranges within it's engagement envelope. it's a wide-area, long-range form of attack, therefore, it needs to have a trade-off to be balanced.
The route the developers took with this, which doesn't severely impact the 'tactics' of the fedball in any significant way, was to decouple critical hits from the power. Thus, you can choose to equip an AOE power that works for spam clearance, OR you can equip a point target power that applies critical hits, see how that works?
this means you can't run a team of BFAW boats and just sit there being immune to return fire while you cross heal and chat on the phone-you have to choose whether you're going to apply high amounts of damage and criticals, OR apply wide area coverage that doesn't require positioning.
either/or, it's what they term a 'Tactical Dilemna', instead of a 'Magical Cure'.
So still you think only FAW should not recieve criticals. Thats BS, somepoeple use it strategically and i have tried to say this to you, and we would prefer a skill that was more directible and and less everywhere. You jsut ignore it, so my converstaion as far as you are concerened is done, you are anti-FAW and will never change.
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If you spray bullets at someone you have a chance to hit them in a critical place, like the head.
Why would FAW be no different? You all complain but the problem is overstacking all that Crit. Romulans have too high of Crit, and to balance that they gave it to Embassy Boffs so everyone can have it. Cirt overstacking is the problem not just one single power.
If you dont want to use the counters for FAW thats your choice, but dont push FAW out because you dont want to run GW and scramble sensors.
I have said it before and ill say it again, give us a Doff that changes FAW to a single target skill, or REDUCE the crits chance on FAW to 50%, so it halves your crit chance when you use it. You can still Crit but it is less likely.
For everryone who says FAW should remain with no Crits, fine, then remove all Crits from All energy weapons and see how you enjoy it.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You miss a bit of there point. Faw with no crits as it is right now is pretty balanced. The dmg is sitll > then pretty much everything else... with out it being beyond stupid. (which it was as it is now with crits)... its funny but as it is right now with no crits it still provides higher dps then pretty much anything else.
FAW has been changed honestly what 30 times now. (no exaggeration) Even Cryptic has no idea what this skill should be doing... other then obviously someone with some control there has said NO NO we need a skill that the RPers can yell at the screen... FIRE EVERYTHING. lol
As a mechanic yes many people hate it... frankly its just a bad mechanic. Take the core of FAW with its uptime and drop it into any other MMO game in existence and any one would say WTF? because it is just that stupid. Seriously think of any other game you have ever played and imagine a skill that could hit anything at once in a 360 degree circle around you, out to the max range of your weapons... that hit each target harder then other buffs... and you could keep it up 50% of the time. Would that be a balanced mechanic ? Would you end up finding that game your thinking about boring in about 10 min ?
You miss a bit of there point. Faw with no crits as it is right now is pretty balanced. The dmg is sitll > then pretty much everything else... with out it being beyond stupid. (which it was as it is now with crits)... its funny but as it is right now with no crits it still provides higher dps then pretty much anything else.
FAW has been changed honestly what 30 times now. (no exaggeration) Even Cryptic has no idea what this skill should be doing... other then obviously someone with some control there has said NO NO we need a skill that the RPers can yell at the screen... FIRE EVERYTHING. lol
As a mechanic yes many people hate it... frankly its just a bad mechanic. Take the core of FAW with its uptime and drop it into any other MMO game in existence and any one would say WTF? because it is just that stupid. Seriously think of any other game you have ever played and imagine a skill that could hit anything at once in a 360 degree circle around you, out to the max range of your weapons... that hit each target harder then other buffs... and you could keep it up 50% of the time. Would that be a balanced mechanic ? Would you end up finding that game your thinking about boring in about 10 min ?
So FAW is fine? Sure unless you have antiprotons. Its currently only use is clearing pet spam. That is utterly useless, and not balanced.
Noone says gee halving the Crit is actually a good and fairl balanced idea, its just nope. No. No FAW ccrits ever again, only cannon powers are allowed to crit and the overload that kills your power levels.
You are all just anti FAW.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So FAW is fine? Sure unless you have antiprotons. Its currently only use is clearing pet spam. That is utterly useless, and not balanced.
Noone says gee halving the Crit is actually a good and fairl balanced idea, its just nope. No. No FAW ccrits ever again, only cannon powers are allowed to crit and the overload that kills your power levels.
You are all just anti FAW.
I just explained to you that YES I am anti faw because its a garbage mechanic dreamed up by the most halfassed dev team ever to create a game. lol
Honestly I take it back... becaause Bort is in the process of recoding FAW... and guess what you are likely not going to like it. Either it is only going to be good for clearing pet spam... or its no longer going to be a DPS power house skill... I doubt you are going to like how the current devs correct one of the biggest blunders in gaming ever. Bad mechanics are bad mechanics.
I like FAW with no crits. Ever since this bug was introduced, PvP matches are actually fun and last a while. It has been weeks since I've gone into a PvP match and seen 5 FAW spewing Scimitars ruining all the fun.
I just explained to you that YES I am anti faw because its a garbage mechanic dreamed up by the most halfassed dev team ever to create a game. lol
Honestly I take it back... becaause Bort is in the process of recoding FAW... and guess what you are likely not going to like it. Either it is only going to be good for clearing pet spam... or its no longer going to be a DPS power house skill... I doubt you are going to like how the current devs correct one of the biggest blunders in gaming ever. Bad mechanics are bad mechanics.
But it is currently bad and useless, if it drained like it does, and had only half the crit potential it would be a fine skill.
If it had a Doff that made it a single target instead of AoE it would be a fine skill.
If it remained as a heavily draining skill that is only good for AoE spam clearing, its utterly useless.
Now im not talking just from a 8 beam cruiser perspective here, i am talking from a 6 beam science ship perspective too. Just relying on scince tomfoolery isnt enough and BO on a science ship is just too draining.
Min/Maxing ruined this game not a single mechanic. FAW + A2B = OP FAW + DEM + Marion = OP, FAW all by its lonesome isnt a terrible skill, its just goes to too many places.
And sure in PvP all those places are right on top of you, but in PvE not so much and with everyone and their mother having high resists, well it sucks more.
I am not an opponent of changing FAW, but i am an opponent of making a t a spam only clearing skill.
Its Burst Damage VS sustained Damage. And then everyone being followers in this game, one person notices beams and FAW do more damamge, when stacked with A2B + DEM + Marion + 3 Technicians + Romulan superior OP, and romulan OP = OP the skill by its lonesome is not OP, whe i spammed the life out of it woth no drain on my sci ship before they "fixed" it again, i wasnt nailing over 10k, i was getting maybe 7-9k depending on the circumstances.
So tell me why my use of the skill and spamming it is bad? Or is it just the stupid ridiculous TRIBBLE people can stack that makes it OP and bad.
Get your heads out of the clouds because FAW isnt the cause, its part of a problem chain that didnt start with FAW.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
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First off the current drain mechanic isn't something new... its the same mechanic every other skill has. Faw was bugged previously and ignored it.
I am going to stop arguing with you about faw now... no it should not be a high dmg skill. If you don't understand why that is what can I say you don't get it. The min maxing isn't what makes faw > because those same mechanics effect everything else as well... there is a reason faw benifits more its because its a terrible mechanic that allows you to fire more shots then with out it with no draw back. Sure they are not really focused shots so it would seem to be a good "pressure" skill... on its face. Really though the way weapons work in STO it is a very broken mechanic. Its why Cryptic has had a hard time balancing it since launch... its either to low and sucks or to high and > because the mechanic itself is BAD, faw as it exists now will NEVER be balanced. It will always be terrible or overpowered, its just the nature of a skill that is 360+adds shots+adds dmg+removes the need to target.
The only real option for it is to delete it... and replace it with NEW faw which would pretty much be a carbon copy of Scatter Volley... honestly don't be shocked if Bort announces in the next month or two that exact solution.
First off the current drain mechanic isn't something new... its the same mechanic every other skill has. Faw was bugged previously and ignored it.
I am going to stop arguing with you about faw now... no it should not be a high dmg skill. If you don't understand why that is what can I say you don't get it. The min maxing isn't what makes faw > because those same mechanics effect everything else as well... there is a reason faw benifits more its because its a terrible mechanic that allows you to fire more shots then with out it with no draw back. Sure they are not really focused shots so it would seem to be a good "pressure" skill... on its face. Really though the way weapons work in STO it is a very broken mechanic. Its why Cryptic has had a hard time balancing it since launch... its either to low and sucks or to high and > because the mechanic itself is BAD, faw as it exists now will NEVER be balanced. It will always be terrible or overpowered, its just the nature of a skill that is 360+adds shots+adds dmg+removes the need to target.
The only real option for it is to delete it... and replace it with NEW faw which would pretty much be a carbon copy of Scatter Volley... honestly don't be shocked if Bort announces in the next month or two that exact solution.
It isnt 360 degrees. it doesnt magically make your rear beams fire through the front of your ship, unless you are using the omni.
It fires in the weapons arcs. just like scatter volley. it already is like scatter volley minus the buckshot look.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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It isnt 360 degrees. it doesnt magically make your rear beams fire through the front of your ship, unless you are using the omni.
It fires in the weapons arcs. just like scatter volley. it already is like scatter volley minus the buckshot look.
Scatter does NOT fire the weapon arc... do you see turrets with scatter firing death blossom mode ?
Scatter fire in a cone arc based on any weapons you have lined up on your target. So if your DHC is in arc it fires in an expanded cone around your target. If your DHC is not in arc it doesn't fire on anything. Your turrets also only fire with in that cone based off your target regardless if someone is behind you those are 360 degree weapons... they just don't get to fire 360 because you activate CSV.
With Faw... if you have some one in your Forward arc they get hit by your DBB... and if you have some one in your rear they also hit with any beams you have loaded back there. With Scatter volley you don't get to hit targets to your right left front and back all at once. If the other team is spread out CSV is useless.
FAW targets ANYTHING in a 360 degree firing zone around your ship... any weapon that is in arc.
CSV will only target other targets in CSVs own firing arc surrounding your target.
This is why CSV in fact takes some skill to use as you have to line up your target and to hit other targets they have to be close to your main target. (you don't get a magic clear all spam because you have a few turrets loaded up)
Think about this another way... I bet you know ground STO pretty well. Right now a Pulsewave rifle will hit targets in its firing cone. That is how CSV works... it upgrades your single target cannon to fire a Cone. Imagine if pulsewaves second fire instead of firing a cone fired 360 degrees around your toon and hit everything... that is the FAW mechanic right now... seems pretty silly right.
Scatter does NOT fire the weapon arc... do you see turrets with scatter firing death blossom mode ?
Scatter fire in a cone arc based on any weapons you have lined up on your target. So if your DHC is in arc it fires in an expanded cone around your target. If your DHC is not in arc it doesn't fire on anything. Your turrets also only fire with in that cone based off your target regardless if someone is behind you those are 360 degree weapons... they just don't get to fire 360 because you activate CSV.
With Faw... if you have some one in your Forward arc they get hit by your DBB... and if you have some one in your rear they also hit with any beams you have loaded back there. With Scatter volley you don't get to hit targets to your right left front and back all at once. If the other team is spread out CSV is useless.
FAW targets ANYTHING in a 360 degree firing zone around your ship... any weapon that is in arc.
CSV will only target other targets in CSVs own firing arc surrounding your target.
This is why CSV in fact takes some skill to use as you have to line up your target and to hit other targets they have to be close to your main target. (you don't get a magic clear all spam because you have a few turrets loaded up)
Think about this another way... I bet you know ground STO pretty well. Right now a Pulsewave rifle will hit targets in its firing cone. That is how CSV works... it upgrades your single target cannon to fire a Cone. Imagine if pulsewaves second fire instead of firing a cone fired 360 degrees around your toon and hit everything... that is the FAW mechanic right now... seems pretty silly right.
If Turrets fired CSV in a death blossom i would definetly do an all turret build with CSV.
If FAW got a cone where would that cone be? A Broadside cone? A front arc? Rear?
Could you imagine trying to get a space whale into position for something like that? unless it was a broadside cone?
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
If Turrets fired CSV in a death blossom i would definetly do an all turret build with CSV.
If FAW got a cone where would that cone be? A Broadside cone? A front arc? Rear?
Could you imagine trying to get a space whale into position for something like that? unless it was a broadside cone?
You have obviously never used CSV.
No the cone isn't random its based off YOUR target.
You target someone... and your weapons (that are in arc on your target) can hit anything with in a cone around your target.
FAW should operate the same way or not at all.
Of course if CSV operated like Faw you would see plenty of turret / single cannon death blossom ships... which is exactly why it wasn't coded that way. lol I think you might be starting to get it.
this is why i really hate the pvp community!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you guys complain that no pressure damage and its all about cannons, faw was in a good place, now you guys hate that people can dps with faw??????????????????
i like faw, i like how it works. i dont use faw but a crusier should push me off of him with beams. even tho faw will not crit, its still a good form of pressure damage. most noobs think faw sucks right now. well....what do they know? really nothing. faw is more then pet spam clearing atm. its pressure damage. well complain all you want get faw nerfed. make cannons king again and beams something to just luz at. no wonder why the devs dont take this community serious at all. bunch of hypocrites and contradic at every turn. even before roms my fleet was using bug ships with no sci owning premades with faw. roms just brought everything into a clearer light. thats when people took a look at faw. how original.......... my fleet owned people with gw before it got buffed and popular. not sure how the community discoveries anything to be honest. but i know you guys rage post in fourms when caut off guard since people talk and never tested anything first.
this is why i really hate the pvp community!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you guys complain that no pressure damage and its all about cannons, faw was in a good place, now you guys hate that people can dps with faw??????????????????
i like faw, i like how it works. i dont use faw but a crusier should push me off of him with beams. even tho faw will not crit, its still a good form of pressure damage. most noobs think faw sucks right now. well....what do they know? really nothing. faw is more then pet spam clearing atm. its pressure damage. well complain all you want get faw nerfed. make cannons king again and beams something to just luz at. no wonder why the devs dont take this community serious at all. bunch of hypocrites and contradic at every turn. even before roms my fleet was using bug ships with no sci owning premades with faw. roms just brought everything into a clearer light. thats when people took a look at faw. how original.......... my fleet owned people with gw before it got buffed and popular. not sure how the community discoveries anything to be honest. but i know you guys rage post in fourms when caut off guard since people talk and never tested anything first.
my rant is over but really, the community sucks.
Yes, we suck, you suck, they suck, everyone sucks.
Many seem to talk about 'the community', as if it's this monolithic entity with one mind. Well, newsflash, it's not. Of course there's going to be contradictions! We are all different people, acting for different reasons, with different opinions, and different justifications. So stop it with the generalising already!
I love how people complain about an ability that isn't broken like FaW and not complain about DOff stacking, power overflow, etc making FaW powerful. Let's face it, to make FaW a beast you pretty much need an Aux2Batt build, otherwise the ability is pretty lackluster. Don't cry nerf because people are flying Flavor Build of the Week #47, be reasonable.
Someone complained that FaW doesn't take skill to use compared to CSV or CRF, which might be true... but people keep forgetting that any potential single-target damage is divided the more targets are within range of the FaW-buffed ship. CRF and CSV lose no DPS, really, as long as you maintain your arc on the target.
FaW is fine. Maybe what they should do is make Beam Overload have a lesser power drain so it can be the equivalent of CRF? Or maybe do a nerf to Marion or Aux2Batt abuse?
I love how people complain about an ability that isn't broken like FaW and not complain about DOff stacking, power overflow, etc making FaW powerful. Let's face it, to make FaW a beast you pretty much need an Aux2Batt build, otherwise the ability is pretty lackluster. Don't cry nerf because people are flying Flavor Build of the Week #47, be reasonable.
Someone complained that FaW doesn't take skill to use compared to CSV or CRF, which might be true... but people keep forgetting that any potential single-target damage is divided the more targets are within range of the FaW-buffed ship. CRF and CSV lose no DPS, really, as long as you maintain your arc on the target.
FaW is fine. Maybe what they should do is make Beam Overload have a lesser power drain so it can be the equivalent of CRF? Or maybe do a nerf to Marion or Aux2Batt abuse?
Exactly! this is what i have been trying to say!
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I love how people complain about an ability that isn't broken like FaW and not complain about DOff stacking, power overflow, etc making FaW powerful. Let's face it, to make FaW a beast you pretty much need an Aux2Batt build
Yes, we suck, you suck, they suck, everyone sucks.
Many seem to talk about 'the community', as if it's this monolithic entity with one mind. Well, newsflash, it's not. Of course there's going to be contradictions! We are all different people, acting for different reasons, with different opinions, and different justifications. So stop it with the generalising already!
this was directed at people that wanted faw buffed, that complained about cannons being king now looking to get faw nerfed. they posted in this very thred. they know who they are.
If the only issue was stacking making faw great... then Rapid fire scatter overload ect would all be equally good.
Stacking is crazy no doubt... but it is not what makes FAW > then any other energy weapon buff.
The issues with faw are these...
1) Selected Target not Required at all. (the only skill in the game to work this way)
2) 360 degree usable AOE. (the only skill in the game to work this way)
3) Weapons that use this skill have very little draw back over range. (this means you have a AOE bubble, I won't go over area formula for a sphere but hey 4/3 pi R^3 do it your self... its pretty sick)
4) Adds a 5th dmg shot to every beam cycle. For the reasons above Every single beam is going to be firing at something.
5) Despite adding extra shots it still boosts dmg to levels on par with Rapid fire even though the skill is one rung lower on the boff ladder.
These are common sense issues... I don't really understand how any of the above 5 major issues with faw are defensible.
Those of us that are the most vocal about FAW needing to be re written don't do so because we hate cruisers and faw and not being uber in our escorts. lol We do it because its best for the game. (no long term pvp player doesn't have multiple escorts crusiers and sci ships)
FAW will never ever be balanced... because of the above mechanics. Any little change like a -power draw item... or a +weapon power item... or a On Hit provide type item... is going to AMPLIFY disproportionately with faw. Beacuse it hits more more often, If Rapid fire got a buff item it still only counts when Rapid fire is on target... which by default of the design is going to be less often and there for ramp up overall dmg numbers much slower.
I myself don't want to see cruisers unable to sustain pressure dmg... on the contrary I would love to see rapid fire ported to work with any energy weapon... and Scatter as well (just rename it faw and delete current faw)... this would allow cruisers to pump tons of pressure... however it would be a system that would be 10x easier to balance... and new items would effect every weapon type pretty much equally. (it would still favor beams with those skills though to be honest due to range to hit... which if it was up to me I would standardize as well)
The issues with faw are these...
1) Selected Target not Required at all. (the only skill in the game to work this way)
2) 360 degree usable AOE. (the only skill in the game to work this way)
3) Weapons that use this skill have very little draw back over range. (this means you have a AOE bubble, I won't go over area formula for a sphere but hey 4/3 pi R^3 do it your self... its pretty sick)
4) Adds a 5th dmg shot to every beam cycle. For the reasons above Every single beam is going to be firing at something.
5) Despite adding extra shots it still boosts dmg to levels on par with Rapid fire even though the skill is one rung lower on the boff ladder.
The issues with faw are these...
1) Selected Target not Required at all. (the only skill in the game to work this way)
2) 360 degree usable AOE. (the only skill in the game to work this way)
3) Weapons that use this skill have very little draw back over range. (this means you have a AOE bubble, I won't go over area formula for a sphere but hey 4/3 pi R^3 do it your self... its pretty sick)
4) Adds a 5th dmg shot to every beam cycle. For the reasons above Every single beam is going to be firing at something.
5) Despite adding extra shots it still boosts dmg to levels on par with Rapid fire even though the skill is one rung lower on the boff ladder.
1)Irrelevant. It just means it hits any target, not necessarily the one you want.
2)This one is true, but it's still affected by things like Defense.
3)There is still a damage falloff at range, as 'minimal' as it might be to you. Damage reduction is damage reduction.
4)It DOES add an extra beam, but you DO know each shot deals less damage than base, right?
5)It only boosts damage when stacked with APB, APA, EPtW, etc. No one in their right mind uses FaW by itself.
And therein lies the problem: no one uses FaW by itself. Usually, it comes accompanied by APB and EPtW, both which make ANY attack deal quite a bit of damage, regardless. FaW by itself is pretty lackluster and it's biggest use (for me anyways) was landing crits in a short window. FaW doesn't beat CRF at all damage-wise. Anything you use to boost FaW boosts CRF even more.
It's a fairly horrible skill to use against a single target if there's more than 1 target around you, as your single-target damage goes down, and each shot deals less damage than base during FaW, so damage to multiple targets is lessened. WHen it becomes ridiculously powerful is when you use it in conjunction with the previously-mentioned skills, and possibly the DEM+DOff combo, keeping your energy drain as minimal as possible.
Yeah, nerf us folk using Sci Vessels who can't Aux2Batt DEM combo for **** because y'all think FaW is broken when it isn't. DOff stacking and skill stacking are the culprits here.
1)Irrelevant. It just means it hits any target, not necessarily the one you want.
2)This one is true, but it's still affected by things like Defense.
3)There is still a damage falloff at range, as 'minimal' as it might be to you. Damage reduction is damage reduction.
4)It DOES add an extra beam, but you DO know each shot deals less damage than base, right?
5)It only boosts damage when stacked with APB, APA, EPtW, etc. No one in their right mind uses FaW by itself.
And therein lies the problem: no one uses FaW by itself. Usually, it comes accompanied by APB and EPtW, both which make ANY attack deal quite a bit of damage, regardless. FaW by itself is pretty lackluster and it's biggest use (for me anyways) was landing crits in a short window. FaW doesn't beat CRF at all damage-wise. Anything you use to boost FaW boosts CRF even more.
It's a fairly horrible skill to use against a single target if there's more than 1 target around you, as your single-target damage goes down, and each shot deals less damage than base during FaW, so damage to multiple targets is lessened. WHen it becomes ridiculously powerful is when you use it in conjunction with the previously-mentioned skills, and possibly the DEM+DOff combo, keeping your energy drain as minimal as possible.
Yeah, nerf us folk using Sci Vessels who can't Aux2Batt DEM combo for **** because y'all think FaW is broken when it isn't. DOff stacking and skill stacking are the culprits here.
No one uses ANY buff by itself... re read what I wrote and try your best to understand.
FAW will ALWAYS magnify any secondary buff more then the other skills because it spends 100% of its up time on target... its the only skill that can get anywhere close to that.
Think of the math this way.
If every skill has a base value of 100.
X skill spends 100% time on target.
Y skill spends 75% of time on target.
Now you add a 2x dmg boost.
x = 200
y = 175
This is why FAW is impossible to balance... because it allows for 100% of time on target... and no other skill does. Period end of story.
The issue isn't the dmg multipliers or the power drain negation items... the issue is that FAW gets an order of magnitude greater boost from ANY item and or skill. Because its time on target is almost perfect.
1) Yes it is relevant when you consider what I just tried to explain to you.
2) I'm not sure what defense has to do with the fact that the skill is 360 degrees.
3) Yes there is a dmg falloff on beams but it is almost non existent frankly.
4 / 5) My point was the base dmg boost from FAW 3 is = to the base dmg boost from Rapid fire 3. Rapid Fire 3 is a Comamnder Skill... FAW 3 I not. Take this to a more logical place... Ensign Level FAW 1... provides the same % boost to damage as Lt. Commander Sactter 1. (therefore its not hard to see why you see very few crusiers sporting cannons... its not that single cannons are bad... its that there lower level skills are < so why on earth would someone gimp themselves.... even the cruisers that can load Heavy Cannons... they can't load Rapid fire 3... so going FAW 3 + beams is going to be better always)
Really it goes further then just Faw - Scatter boff levels for the cannons suck on cruisers argument. The other issue is range to hit. Honestly that is one area of the game that NEEDS to be standardized. Cannons should be bumped up to around 75% of what beams have now... and beams should be bumped down to match.
because I can't cover a 360 degree zone with a single machinegun-at least, not without risking firing on my buddies.
FAW does this, routinely. the area of effect is the area of a sphere with a 10 kilometer radius around the ship.
Look, the Beam Overload Stacking was corrected, do you really think it's unreasonable that the developers would refuse to apply some balance to BFAW when it outperforms Commander level offensive powers?
Does it outperform them? or did the DEV intentionally put beam ones a slot lower so cruisers could have a beam lvl 3 power, instead of only escorts capable of having high level commander powers?
BFAW3 improves damage by 40%, CRF3 improves it by 50%, CSV3 improves by 25% and BO3 850%.
CSV is an untargeted attack, its a cone. BFAW is a randomly selected but targetable. CRF is rapid fire, and BO is just pure power. (frankly BO should disable that beam for 5 seconds since you did just overload it)
If i had a Boff that targeted friendlies too i would ask for his resignation or push him out an airlock. if it hit friendlies nobody would use it.
Inertia just means you can do Powerslides in you carrier!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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Does it outperform them? or did the DEV intentionally put beam ones a slot lower so cruisers could have a beam lvl 3 power, instead of only escorts capable of having high level commander powers?
BFAW3 improves damage by 40%, CRF3 improves it by 50%, CSV3 improves by 25% and BO3 850%.
CSV is an untargeted attack, its a cone. BFAW is a randomly selected but targetable. CRF is rapid fire, and BO is just pure power. (frankly BO should disable that beam for 5 seconds since you did just overload it)
If i had a Boff that targeted friendlies too i would ask for his resignation or push him out an airlock. if it hit friendlies nobody would use it.
Again CSV is NOT an untargeted attack. It attacks ONE target and can hit other targets in a 180 degree cone around the target. Fire at will is 100% untargeted. You can claim that is a disadvantage all you like, really though it isn't. It is the only skill that beats human reaction time by taking the human out of the reaction. lol
As for FAW 3 deserving to be Lt. Cmd so that Hybrid Cruisers can also slot it... then Where is Lt. CMD DEM 3 / Eject warp plasma 3 / RSP 3 / SIF 3 / Extend 3... I would love to put them on my hybrid escort with Lt. CMD Engi. Or perhaps Lt. CMD GW 3 / Tykens 3 / Siphen 3 / Shockwave 3 / VM 3... i would love to put those on my hybrid escorts as well.
Point is... Every Profession has its signature commander skill... skills people build there ships around.
Engi... have Strong heals (Sif / Extend) and a couple Debuffs (EWP 3 / Aceton 3 / BP 3)... and one pretty strong DPS skill (DEM 3) It makes perfect sense a little of everything to build around as Engi and cruisers (which have the most engi slots) are jacks of all trades.
Sci... Have Some strong CC Commander skills... (GW 3/ Tykens 3 / Siphen 3/ shockwave 3/ SS 3 / VM 3) Again makes sense... Science is the CC class... obvious just look at the Commander skills.
Tac... Have... Strong DMG/Fire support skills (Omega 3 / Beta 3 / Delta 3) as well as DMG increasing skills (Rapid fire 3 / CSV 3 / Dispersal pattern 3) Again makes sense... Tac and Escort is the DPS class which is also the "escort" class hence the fire support skills like Attack Pattern Delta. (not related but we need more skills like delta for escorts so they can be true escorts)
They have however decided that Beam skills and Torpedo skills deserve to be one step lower on the rung.
Now I won't argue about torpedos its a skill that every class should have equal access to Ensign / Lt / and hybrid ships Lt. Cmd versions of the buffs.... Beams though ?
I don't understand the logic. Sure 4 years ago when no cruiser had more then a LT tactical slot... I could understand the logic.... However now that Hybrids exist it is game breaking frankly. Being able to run the strongest Engi Attack Skill in conjunction with the strongest tactical skill... is sort of bad design.
Comments
so being able to destroy 2 healers at the same time with 1 scimitar is ok.Good for you now go join that boot camp.
Where did I say that ?
I think I said faw needs to be toned down... which would make it less likely that premades would go Full Scitard. Is that not the point you where trying to make ?
Its chicken egg isn't it... All the sci spam, its annoying and most of us choose to stop running it... after the last overpowered version of faw was changed. Seeing as its back... well best defense vs to much faw... is to present a ton of targets and be annoying.
So still you think only FAW should not recieve criticals. Thats BS, somepoeple use it strategically and i have tried to say this to you, and we would prefer a skill that was more directible and and less everywhere. You jsut ignore it, so my converstaion as far as you are concerened is done, you are anti-FAW and will never change.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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If you spray bullets at someone you have a chance to hit them in a critical place, like the head.
Why would FAW be no different? You all complain but the problem is overstacking all that Crit. Romulans have too high of Crit, and to balance that they gave it to Embassy Boffs so everyone can have it. Cirt overstacking is the problem not just one single power.
If you dont want to use the counters for FAW thats your choice, but dont push FAW out because you dont want to run GW and scramble sensors.
I have said it before and ill say it again, give us a Doff that changes FAW to a single target skill, or REDUCE the crits chance on FAW to 50%, so it halves your crit chance when you use it. You can still Crit but it is less likely.
For everryone who says FAW should remain with no Crits, fine, then remove all Crits from All energy weapons and see how you enjoy it.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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FAW has been changed honestly what 30 times now. (no exaggeration) Even Cryptic has no idea what this skill should be doing... other then obviously someone with some control there has said NO NO we need a skill that the RPers can yell at the screen... FIRE EVERYTHING. lol
As a mechanic yes many people hate it... frankly its just a bad mechanic. Take the core of FAW with its uptime and drop it into any other MMO game in existence and any one would say WTF? because it is just that stupid. Seriously think of any other game you have ever played and imagine a skill that could hit anything at once in a 360 degree circle around you, out to the max range of your weapons... that hit each target harder then other buffs... and you could keep it up 50% of the time. Would that be a balanced mechanic ? Would you end up finding that game your thinking about boring in about 10 min ?
So FAW is fine? Sure unless you have antiprotons. Its currently only use is clearing pet spam. That is utterly useless, and not balanced.
Noone says gee halving the Crit is actually a good and fairl balanced idea, its just nope. No. No FAW ccrits ever again, only cannon powers are allowed to crit and the overload that kills your power levels.
You are all just anti FAW.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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I just explained to you that YES I am anti faw because its a garbage mechanic dreamed up by the most halfassed dev team ever to create a game. lol
Honestly I take it back... becaause Bort is in the process of recoding FAW... and guess what you are likely not going to like it. Either it is only going to be good for clearing pet spam... or its no longer going to be a DPS power house skill... I doubt you are going to like how the current devs correct one of the biggest blunders in gaming ever.
This is how I hope it ends up
But it is currently bad and useless, if it drained like it does, and had only half the crit potential it would be a fine skill.
If it had a Doff that made it a single target instead of AoE it would be a fine skill.
If it remained as a heavily draining skill that is only good for AoE spam clearing, its utterly useless.
Now im not talking just from a 8 beam cruiser perspective here, i am talking from a 6 beam science ship perspective too. Just relying on scince tomfoolery isnt enough and BO on a science ship is just too draining.
Min/Maxing ruined this game not a single mechanic. FAW + A2B = OP FAW + DEM + Marion = OP, FAW all by its lonesome isnt a terrible skill, its just goes to too many places.
And sure in PvP all those places are right on top of you, but in PvE not so much and with everyone and their mother having high resists, well it sucks more.
I am not an opponent of changing FAW, but i am an opponent of making a t a spam only clearing skill.
Its Burst Damage VS sustained Damage. And then everyone being followers in this game, one person notices beams and FAW do more damamge, when stacked with A2B + DEM + Marion + 3 Technicians + Romulan superior OP, and romulan OP = OP the skill by its lonesome is not OP, whe i spammed the life out of it woth no drain on my sci ship before they "fixed" it again, i wasnt nailing over 10k, i was getting maybe 7-9k depending on the circumstances.
So tell me why my use of the skill and spamming it is bad? Or is it just the stupid ridiculous TRIBBLE people can stack that makes it OP and bad.
Get your heads out of the clouds because FAW isnt the cause, its part of a problem chain that didnt start with FAW.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
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I am going to stop arguing with you about faw now... no it should not be a high dmg skill. If you don't understand why that is what can I say you don't get it. The min maxing isn't what makes faw > because those same mechanics effect everything else as well... there is a reason faw benifits more its because its a terrible mechanic that allows you to fire more shots then with out it with no draw back. Sure they are not really focused shots so it would seem to be a good "pressure" skill... on its face. Really though the way weapons work in STO it is a very broken mechanic. Its why Cryptic has had a hard time balancing it since launch... its either to low and sucks or to high and > because the mechanic itself is BAD, faw as it exists now will NEVER be balanced. It will always be terrible or overpowered, its just the nature of a skill that is 360+adds shots+adds dmg+removes the need to target.
The only real option for it is to delete it... and replace it with NEW faw which would pretty much be a carbon copy of Scatter Volley... honestly don't be shocked if Bort announces in the next month or two that exact solution.
It isnt 360 degrees. it doesnt magically make your rear beams fire through the front of your ship, unless you are using the omni.
It fires in the weapons arcs. just like scatter volley. it already is like scatter volley minus the buckshot look.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Scatter does NOT fire the weapon arc... do you see turrets with scatter firing death blossom mode ?
Scatter fire in a cone arc based on any weapons you have lined up on your target. So if your DHC is in arc it fires in an expanded cone around your target. If your DHC is not in arc it doesn't fire on anything. Your turrets also only fire with in that cone based off your target regardless if someone is behind you those are 360 degree weapons... they just don't get to fire 360 because you activate CSV.
With Faw... if you have some one in your Forward arc they get hit by your DBB... and if you have some one in your rear they also hit with any beams you have loaded back there. With Scatter volley you don't get to hit targets to your right left front and back all at once. If the other team is spread out CSV is useless.
FAW targets ANYTHING in a 360 degree firing zone around your ship... any weapon that is in arc.
CSV will only target other targets in CSVs own firing arc surrounding your target.
This is why CSV in fact takes some skill to use as you have to line up your target and to hit other targets they have to be close to your main target. (you don't get a magic clear all spam because you have a few turrets loaded up)
Think about this another way... I bet you know ground STO pretty well. Right now a Pulsewave rifle will hit targets in its firing cone. That is how CSV works... it upgrades your single target cannon to fire a Cone. Imagine if pulsewaves second fire instead of firing a cone fired 360 degrees around your toon and hit everything... that is the FAW mechanic right now... seems pretty silly right.
If Turrets fired CSV in a death blossom i would definetly do an all turret build with CSV.
If FAW got a cone where would that cone be? A Broadside cone? A front arc? Rear?
Could you imagine trying to get a space whale into position for something like that? unless it was a broadside cone?
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You have obviously never used CSV.
No the cone isn't random its based off YOUR target.
You target someone... and your weapons (that are in arc on your target) can hit anything with in a cone around your target.
FAW should operate the same way or not at all.
Of course if CSV operated like Faw you would see plenty of turret / single cannon death blossom ships... which is exactly why it wasn't coded that way. lol I think you might be starting to get it.
i like faw, i like how it works. i dont use faw but a crusier should push me off of him with beams. even tho faw will not crit, its still a good form of pressure damage. most noobs think faw sucks right now. well....what do they know? really nothing. faw is more then pet spam clearing atm. its pressure damage. well complain all you want get faw nerfed. make cannons king again and beams something to just luz at. no wonder why the devs dont take this community serious at all. bunch of hypocrites and contradic at every turn. even before roms my fleet was using bug ships with no sci owning premades with faw. roms just brought everything into a clearer light. thats when people took a look at faw. how original.......... my fleet owned people with gw before it got buffed and popular. not sure how the community discoveries anything to be honest. but i know you guys rage post in fourms when caut off guard since people talk and never tested anything first.
my rant is over but really, the community sucks.
Yes, we suck, you suck, they suck, everyone sucks.
Many seem to talk about 'the community', as if it's this monolithic entity with one mind. Well, newsflash, it's not. Of course there's going to be contradictions! We are all different people, acting for different reasons, with different opinions, and different justifications. So stop it with the generalising already!
Someone complained that FaW doesn't take skill to use compared to CSV or CRF, which might be true... but people keep forgetting that any potential single-target damage is divided the more targets are within range of the FaW-buffed ship. CRF and CSV lose no DPS, really, as long as you maintain your arc on the target.
FaW is fine. Maybe what they should do is make Beam Overload have a lesser power drain so it can be the equivalent of CRF? Or maybe do a nerf to Marion or Aux2Batt abuse?
RIP June 2013. Nothing to complain about anymore.
Exactly! this is what i have been trying to say!
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
i smell bs. a2b is not needed to make faw work.
this was directed at people that wanted faw buffed, that complained about cannons being king now looking to get faw nerfed. they posted in this very thred. they know who they are.
Stacking is crazy no doubt... but it is not what makes FAW > then any other energy weapon buff.
The issues with faw are these...
1) Selected Target not Required at all. (the only skill in the game to work this way)
2) 360 degree usable AOE. (the only skill in the game to work this way)
3) Weapons that use this skill have very little draw back over range. (this means you have a AOE bubble, I won't go over area formula for a sphere but hey 4/3 pi R^3 do it your self... its pretty sick)
4) Adds a 5th dmg shot to every beam cycle. For the reasons above Every single beam is going to be firing at something.
5) Despite adding extra shots it still boosts dmg to levels on par with Rapid fire even though the skill is one rung lower on the boff ladder.
These are common sense issues... I don't really understand how any of the above 5 major issues with faw are defensible.
Those of us that are the most vocal about FAW needing to be re written don't do so because we hate cruisers and faw and not being uber in our escorts. lol We do it because its best for the game. (no long term pvp player doesn't have multiple escorts crusiers and sci ships)
FAW will never ever be balanced... because of the above mechanics. Any little change like a -power draw item... or a +weapon power item... or a On Hit provide type item... is going to AMPLIFY disproportionately with faw. Beacuse it hits more more often, If Rapid fire got a buff item it still only counts when Rapid fire is on target... which by default of the design is going to be less often and there for ramp up overall dmg numbers much slower.
I myself don't want to see cruisers unable to sustain pressure dmg... on the contrary I would love to see rapid fire ported to work with any energy weapon... and Scatter as well (just rename it faw and delete current faw)... this would allow cruisers to pump tons of pressure... however it would be a system that would be 10x easier to balance... and new items would effect every weapon type pretty much equally. (it would still favor beams with those skills though to be honest due to range to hit... which if it was up to me I would standardize as well)
Quoted for truth.
2)This one is true, but it's still affected by things like Defense.
3)There is still a damage falloff at range, as 'minimal' as it might be to you. Damage reduction is damage reduction.
4)It DOES add an extra beam, but you DO know each shot deals less damage than base, right?
5)It only boosts damage when stacked with APB, APA, EPtW, etc. No one in their right mind uses FaW by itself.
And therein lies the problem: no one uses FaW by itself. Usually, it comes accompanied by APB and EPtW, both which make ANY attack deal quite a bit of damage, regardless. FaW by itself is pretty lackluster and it's biggest use (for me anyways) was landing crits in a short window. FaW doesn't beat CRF at all damage-wise. Anything you use to boost FaW boosts CRF even more.
It's a fairly horrible skill to use against a single target if there's more than 1 target around you, as your single-target damage goes down, and each shot deals less damage than base during FaW, so damage to multiple targets is lessened. WHen it becomes ridiculously powerful is when you use it in conjunction with the previously-mentioned skills, and possibly the DEM+DOff combo, keeping your energy drain as minimal as possible.
Yeah, nerf us folk using Sci Vessels who can't Aux2Batt DEM combo for **** because y'all think FaW is broken when it isn't. DOff stacking and skill stacking are the culprits here.
No one uses ANY buff by itself... re read what I wrote and try your best to understand.
FAW will ALWAYS magnify any secondary buff more then the other skills because it spends 100% of its up time on target... its the only skill that can get anywhere close to that.
Think of the math this way.
If every skill has a base value of 100.
X skill spends 100% time on target.
Y skill spends 75% of time on target.
Now you add a 2x dmg boost.
x = 200
y = 175
This is why FAW is impossible to balance... because it allows for 100% of time on target... and no other skill does. Period end of story.
The issue isn't the dmg multipliers or the power drain negation items... the issue is that FAW gets an order of magnitude greater boost from ANY item and or skill. Because its time on target is almost perfect.
1) Yes it is relevant when you consider what I just tried to explain to you.
2) I'm not sure what defense has to do with the fact that the skill is 360 degrees.
3) Yes there is a dmg falloff on beams but it is almost non existent frankly.
4 / 5) My point was the base dmg boost from FAW 3 is = to the base dmg boost from Rapid fire 3. Rapid Fire 3 is a Comamnder Skill... FAW 3 I not. Take this to a more logical place... Ensign Level FAW 1... provides the same % boost to damage as Lt. Commander Sactter 1. (therefore its not hard to see why you see very few crusiers sporting cannons... its not that single cannons are bad... its that there lower level skills are < so why on earth would someone gimp themselves.... even the cruisers that can load Heavy Cannons... they can't load Rapid fire 3... so going FAW 3 + beams is going to be better always)
Really it goes further then just Faw - Scatter boff levels for the cannons suck on cruisers argument. The other issue is range to hit. Honestly that is one area of the game that NEEDS to be standardized. Cannons should be bumped up to around 75% of what beams have now... and beams should be bumped down to match.
Does it outperform them? or did the DEV intentionally put beam ones a slot lower so cruisers could have a beam lvl 3 power, instead of only escorts capable of having high level commander powers?
BFAW3 improves damage by 40%, CRF3 improves it by 50%, CSV3 improves by 25% and BO3 850%.
CSV is an untargeted attack, its a cone. BFAW is a randomly selected but targetable. CRF is rapid fire, and BO is just pure power. (frankly BO should disable that beam for 5 seconds since you did just overload it)
If i had a Boff that targeted friendlies too i would ask for his resignation or push him out an airlock. if it hit friendlies nobody would use it.
I am Il Shadow and i approve these Shennanigans!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Again CSV is NOT an untargeted attack. It attacks ONE target and can hit other targets in a 180 degree cone around the target. Fire at will is 100% untargeted. You can claim that is a disadvantage all you like, really though it isn't. It is the only skill that beats human reaction time by taking the human out of the reaction. lol
As for FAW 3 deserving to be Lt. Cmd so that Hybrid Cruisers can also slot it... then Where is Lt. CMD DEM 3 / Eject warp plasma 3 / RSP 3 / SIF 3 / Extend 3... I would love to put them on my hybrid escort with Lt. CMD Engi. Or perhaps Lt. CMD GW 3 / Tykens 3 / Siphen 3 / Shockwave 3 / VM 3... i would love to put those on my hybrid escorts as well.
Point is... Every Profession has its signature commander skill... skills people build there ships around.
Engi... have Strong heals (Sif / Extend) and a couple Debuffs (EWP 3 / Aceton 3 / BP 3)... and one pretty strong DPS skill (DEM 3) It makes perfect sense a little of everything to build around as Engi and cruisers (which have the most engi slots) are jacks of all trades.
Sci... Have Some strong CC Commander skills... (GW 3/ Tykens 3 / Siphen 3/ shockwave 3/ SS 3 / VM 3) Again makes sense... Science is the CC class... obvious just look at the Commander skills.
Tac... Have... Strong DMG/Fire support skills (Omega 3 / Beta 3 / Delta 3) as well as DMG increasing skills (Rapid fire 3 / CSV 3 / Dispersal pattern 3) Again makes sense... Tac and Escort is the DPS class which is also the "escort" class hence the fire support skills like Attack Pattern Delta. (not related but we need more skills like delta for escorts so they can be true escorts)
They have however decided that Beam skills and Torpedo skills deserve to be one step lower on the rung.
Now I won't argue about torpedos its a skill that every class should have equal access to Ensign / Lt / and hybrid ships Lt. Cmd versions of the buffs.... Beams though ?
I don't understand the logic. Sure 4 years ago when no cruiser had more then a LT tactical slot... I could understand the logic.... However now that Hybrids exist it is game breaking frankly. Being able to run the strongest Engi Attack Skill in conjunction with the strongest tactical skill... is sort of bad design.
Lol +1
Not really kept up with this thread since the misinformation and exaggeration began way way back.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.