OP, I'd recommend going with your preferance. If you're used to big slow cruisers then the Bortasqu' will do better for you. If you prefer a ship that does a bit less damage but manoeuvres better then grab the Mogh.
That's not quite correct: If you prefer ships that are big tankwhales, then the Bortasqu is for you. If you want a ship that both maneuvers better AND does damage better, the Mogh is what you want. The Mogh's extra gun outguns the Bort, and its ability to get those guns on target is another point in its favor. The Bort is just a big brick.
That said, I find the Bortasqu unbearable. It's slower in turn even than an Oddy, but its inertia rating is much higher so it takes longer to do anything, even just getting up to speed slightly (from zero to 25% or 50% throttle) just to get turn rate out of the gutter. On paper it LOOKS like a KDF version of the oddy, but in practicality it's far worse.
[/QUOTE]
Nice point on that. I hadn't thought about inertia when comparing the experience to an Oddy.
Speaking of firing arcs: does anyone know from where the game begins measuring the arc? For example, does it originate from the very bow, or the saucer center, or whatever. I mean, with most KDF the weapon points are fairly obvious so I guess I'm wondering more about the fed ships.
Speaking of firing arcs: does anyone know from where the game begins measuring the arc? For example, does it originate from the very bow, or the saucer center, or whatever. I mean, with most KDF the weapon points are fairly obvious so I guess I'm wondering more about the fed ships.
Calculations for firing arcs are made from the pivot point, which is generally somewhere near the centroid of the ship. Weapon hardpoints are used for drawing the visual of the weapon firing, but have no real impact on when the weapon fires.
(Which is why the Qin's turn is often complained about: compared to the Fed ships and their massive saucers, the Qin's long, thin neck is extends quite a bit forward of the centroid, making it look like it's sweeping about much more slowly)
For the odd times when your target is in your front quarter, you are firing 5 beams instead of 4 (as you would on 4/4 cruisers). You don't benefit as obviously as with front-only weapons, but you do benefit. Also with the greater maneuverability you can literally fly zig-zags and semi circles to keep firing on a target while presenting different shield faces. I do this with CCE to good effect. When you do that there are times you're facing the target and your aft beam arrays can't fire.
So, yes, the extra fwd weapon slot does even benefit beam boats. Just a bit. The better benefit is that you're not trapped into using BAs only. You have the option of running DBBs or cannons JUST as effectively as beams with no loss in capability.
its inertia rating is much higher so it takes longer to do anything, even just getting up to speed slightly (from zero to 25% or 50% throttle) just to get turn rate out of the gutter.
.....I just tap full impulse on & off. It's an instant movement boost with no power penalty if you kill it immediately. If you can't use full impulse, there's always engine batteries.
the Bort REQUIRES you to fly it as a beam cruiser or you lose a ton of practical effectiveness out of the ship. You have to run all BAs because you'll almost never get DHCs on target.
.....This depends on the arena and your target. I use DHC's on my Tac bort in ESTF's. The targets are stationary, slow moving, and/or follow predictable paths.
.....If you're talking about the Breach, or defending the empire missions, it is easier/faster to do them with a beam boat. But they can be done with cannons and turrets.
.....If you're talking about PVP,no iteration of the Bort will benefit you.
Those few (in the minority) that claim to do so end up doing it at the expense of any armor, or any healing skills, or any firepower, because they have only slotted skills and specs that help the ship turn better, instead of those that help it FIGHT better.
.....I run DHC's and I don't use RCS or turn boosted consoles and I rarely use engine batteries. I have one neutronium console, one field gen console, & three healing abilities, Aux2 hull three, TSS one, & HE one. Everything else is aimed at maximizing my DPS.
.....I stay nose on to a target 99% of my time in the zone. The way to do that is to plan your movements so that you can maximize your time on each target and/or keep as many targets as possible within your firing arc. This is an easy thing to do in any ESTF.
.....Since you can't fly around on a whim, you have to plan your movements ahead of time. If you're smart about it, you can still be in position to pull a save out of your pocket if someone else drops the ball.
.....(Again, this does NOT apply to PVP.)
It's also quite squishy IMO. There's something about it where you just bleed hull points for no reason at times.
.....I agree. Once your shields are down, it doesn't feel like you're in a huge battle cruiser with 3600 crewmen. It feels more like you're in a raptor and the crew has already bailed on you. But, as noted above, I have only a few healing abilities and only one resist console (which will go away once I have plasmonic leach) but I rarely die. And that usually happens because I completely forget to pay attention to my health.
.....I think the squishiness comes from the broken crew mechanism. I can lose little or no hull health throughout the event and have huge crew losses. Which not only sucks, it drastically affects your hull regen rate.
......I have found a decent way to quickly repair my hull though. I use an auxillary battery (large or small) before I hit my aux2hull and/or my hazard emitters. I can recover huge chunks of hull (30% or more) in a few seconds. And I don't have to take power from another system to do it, so I can maintain my dmg output and shield regen rate.
OP, do a search for Bortasqu threads on this subforum and you can see all the colorful opinions about this highly divisive ship in the KDF.
You are either going to adore the ship or consider it the worst purchase you'll ever make in STO.
Personally, I'd say the Mogh. It moves well, heavy forward firepower, and the BOFF station layout is among the best in the game (alongside its "Avenger" twin).
The Bortasqu' is controversial. It CAN dish out alot of damage. It CAN be built to soak alot. But the movement of the ship is terrible and you have to put alot of effort, more than usual, to make this even move like molasses in winter. The 2 and 3 piece Console bonuses are lackluster. The turn rate bonus is... wait a minute now... +0.5
Yes, I said "0.5" as in improving your base turn rate by only 0.5.
Autocannon - Fabulous console but has a very long cooldown. Since it's a forward arc weapon on a fantastically slow turning ship even with Cruiser Commands and such, on a very long cooldown, it's a horrible waste.
The Bortasqu' isn't something I can recommend. Only if you've really done your homework on it and love flying immovable objects. And for Kahless' sake, it's even more reason of a warning before you even do the Bortasqu' 3-pack.
I bought the 3 pack long ago, and I consider it my worst purchase I have ever made in this game, then and now.
You've been warned.
I just don't see this as the best layout for boffs. it works well with my engineer Capitan only any other profession the layout stinks. id say if your an engineer get the Mogh its awsomesauce any other profession get something else all together.
unless you want to run it like a feddy bear. in which case I ask why are even playing the KDF. and anybody other than a engineer that thinks the Mogh is the best boff layout is willing, ill duel you in my Tor'kaht.
Incase your talking PvE it is still not the best: because any ship in the game is good enough for PvE. So if it stinks in the PvP area of the game but does good in PvE it can not be the best since, A ship that does good in PvP will also do good in PvE.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
TRIBBLE PvP. PvP is the reason we have the super OP unbalanced ROM faction. PvP is killing this game's true PvE potential.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
TRIBBLE PvP. PvP is the reason we have the super OP unbalanced ROM faction. PvP is killing this game's true PvE potential.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
LOL I didn't say PvE would work in PvP. I said any ship in the game will work in PvE.
and that any PvP ship will work in PvE. I never said a PvE would work in PvP. I was afraid some of you feddy bear players would get confused with that and not understand.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
TRIBBLE PvP. PvP is the reason we have the super OP unbalanced ROM faction. PvP is killing this game's true PvE potential.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
Funny how Cryptic only worked on this game in the past 3 years mostly for PvE not PvP. Cryptic made those Romulan Boff Space Traits for PvE while neglected PvP like they always do which in the end made this game ''unbalanced'' and made the Romulan faction as u would put it ''Super OP''.
I will put it for u so u can understand... Romulans Space Traits effects balance in PvP than it could in PvE because in PvP this unbalanced effects players aka real people not NPC's... besides do u see NPC'a going to the forums complaining how fast it got killed by a Romulan player that has 10% more crits and 25% more crit dmg than any Fed or KDF player because of the Romulan Republic Boff Space Traits.
Well, I initially expressed disappointment with my Mogh, but I am starting to get used to it. And it seems that the ddds can do some damage sometimes, never seems to do much on its own but if I keep firing and hit the dmg resist proc it does nice dmg. (not convinced to keep it around though).
Probably going to get some nice DBBs and see how I like that verses cannons. Then I'll drop my RCS in favor of a 4th neutronium, barring any serious obections.
There were a couple of people going back and forth in this thread about bridge costumes and which were better and all that. I don't want to try and find it for quoting purposes right now, but: one had mentioned that such and such a bridge was bad because it was too big and the BOFF's couldn't communicate efficiently. That's not really factored into the game is it?
TRIBBLE PvP. PvP is the reason we have the super OP unbalanced ROM faction. PvP is killing this game's true PvE potential.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
IMO heavy nonsence. I playing STO cca two years , i know how complete all elite PvE mission with mirror ship for 50k ec from exchange.
95% PvE missions are destroy X in time limit. So it is no surprise, that nearly all PvE players have simply builds on the greatest amount of damage. Why using any tricks or special consoles? Why new ships? Only one OP thing on romulans is their operative boffs. And they are very expensive. This can be easy balanced with new boffs with space traits for FED and KDF. Ships are compareable with other newer ships. Or do you about something else?
PvP is reason why buying some new stuff and building a new ships. You can not surprise NPC with nothing. A few minutes shooting a stationary object to me does not seem like much fun .
To that end you need only 1 button and 1 key on your keyboard, and only ever 1 ship and no shields, and no weapon types. The different ships are there for the enjoyment of the player USING them, not because they are needed. Strictly speaking this is a game and is not NEEDED. Nothing about it is. However, given that it IS a game and it follows a theme and certain patterns, it holds with it certain expectations in terms of genre (MMORPG) and theme (Star Trek).
PvP is not driving this game, as you claim. PvP in this game is horribly broken right now. Very few at al bother with it. PvE is the vast majority of the draw this game has. It is also quite broken, but in different ways. It will be fixing these broken aspects of the PvE which will save this game. And I don't mean "make it more money" -- I mean "save it from being dropped by 99% of all the players because it has broken gameplay mechanics."
Along the way, PvP may be resurrected and fixed to play akin to what the idea PvE should, only with players instead of AI. However, it is the PvE which is the crux of the matter, and the focal point of the game.
This game would be 100% dead in the water with no profits if it was ONLY PvP right now, as it stands with the current code in place. It would be scorned more than BSG Online.
I didn't say there WAS balance. I said if it HAD balance that would save this game.
It's a game. You SHOULD kill every NPC you meet. In fact, if you die, EVER, due to the NPCs I say it's badly designed... then again this game has proven to be so badly designed on many levels. The game should test you, should test your teamwork, and you should be able to fail missions, but you should NEVER be put into a situation where you die. Not when you have decent equipment, not when you have experience, skill points, and know how to play the game. The fact that it's a game means that you don't really die -- you get multiple lives -- but if you DIE you have lost the mission. In spirit it's not only totally breaking the immersion and the roleplaying, but it also breaks the genre and it is TRIBBLE poor game design.
If you have no recourse, no cover system, no way to mitigate damage or to be smart and avoid it, and you DIE, it's a bad gameplay mechanic. It's even worse if the game totally insta-gibs you repeatedly while giving you NO defense and NO recourse from the nonsenically powered AI.
Yes, PvE, ****IF**** it were properly balanced, will save this game. The uber-broken PvP will not.
You can't blame the state of PVE in this game on PVP because PVP has received no attention whatsoever. Matter of act, as crazy as it sounds, the only thing Cryptic hates more than the Klingons *is* PVP. Where at least with the KDF, SOME miniscule work has been done over the years of this game. Nothing compared to Feds, but SOME work. The same cannot be said for PVP.
No new maps.
No new PVP modes.
No split queues between PUGs and Pre-Mades.
No nothing. Absolutely NO attention has been provided to PVP since this game released.
As for PVE in this game, it's sorry state is in Cryptic's hands. All their work has been pretty much for PVE, and we have what we have. The woeful state of balance in this game hasn't been due to PVP. It's due to Cryptic's game design of Damage > Anything Else. Cryptic also has been increasing the Power Creep. More buffs, more set bonuses, more set bonuses within a reputation set, more reputation, more reputation buffs both active and passive, more subsystem power, more hits, more crits, more crit severity, more defense for escorts, more everything.
The act of Cryptic adding all this power in itself wasn't wrong. What was wrong was that there was no sacrificing anything. When you look at any random player's ship during combat and see the bewildering array of buffs, that is what's wrong with balance in this game. That is whats' wrong with the retardedly simple nature of PVE in this game. We can blitz through TAC Cubes in less than 5 seconds now, way before my first activation of CRF has finished. Long ago, that was unimaginable.
Then we also have Cryptic nerfing worthy content to the point that you can sit back and do nothing, yet complete it successfully. Case in point? The massive nerfing of "Defense of New Romulus."
And all this rests on what Cryptic has done or neglected to do.
Also:
Star Trek Online History 101
When STO released, there was a very large PVP playerbase. The playerbase numbers were still heavily slanted towards the Feds, but the very large numbers of KDF was noticeably large. The queues were popping constantly. There were soooo many Feds looking for a fight, and not enough KDF to keep those queues popping for all the Feds that had a long line to fight in PVP. You literally could have levelled up solely from PVP'ing, from the moment you were eligible (5, IIRC? Maybe Lv10, but you were still eligible at Lieutenant / Warrior), all the way to the level cap of 40 at the time. Fed, KDF, it was possible.
Participation in PVP was very large, but due to a variety of factors, including neglect of anything PVP, that fruit was allowed to rot.
OP, I have both ships. Hell, I have the Fleet version of the Mogh, but I keep coming back to my lovely Bortasqu', even when the Mogh has 5 fore weapon slots and better turn rate. Why?
The Bortasqu' is a big, sexy powerhouse, and I really, really enjoy flying her.
The messages I get all over when they see my Bortasqu' in full Aegis, glowing red and looking sexy in orbit strokes my ego. That's not to say the Bortasqu' is weak, though! I have mine set up with Fleet Antiproton beams, the Sphere of Influence core and Omnidirectional AP beam, and a fairly tanky loadout and it can turn as well as most battlecruisers, dart all over the battlefield and deal fairly good amount of damage with Fire at Will, especially if I use the Weapon Efficiency cruiser command.
I really just fly her like a mobile fortress, spewing red beams of death and destruction as it slumbers across the battlefield, quickly repairing all damage done to it whilst keeping a high damage resistance. 2 Fleet Neutronium consoles, 1 Fleet RCS console do really well on the ship, and since the Borg mostly spam torpedoes (therefore most of their damage is kinetic-based), Auxiliary to Inertial Dampeners gives you not only a turn rate and speed boost, but a fairly massive kinetic resistance boost. My Bortasqu' isn't your grandma's slumbering version of it. She's agile, can spew Antiprots left and right and lay down the damage, play it super defensively (especially if I switch to the Shield resistance cruiser command), and can move pretty quickly in short bursts
She's a very flexible and powerful ship, and the cool factor alone will make you love the ship. She just looks like a KDF powerhouse, the kind of ship you expect to spearhead strikes, with a flotilla of BoPs and Raptors keeping it in check. Play it as you want, since you get a fairly useful LtComm uni BOff slot: put a Sci BOff there and spam all the Gravity Wells you want, or slam as many shield heals are you want; slap a Tac BOff there and put Attack Pattern Beta and possibly Attack Pattern Delta, and take the heat and therefore lower the enemy's damage resistance to make it easier for your crew to finish the enemy off, or put Attack Pattern Omega and pair it with Aux2Dampeners for massive mobility boosts; or slap an Engi BOff, put maybe Eject Warp Plasma and RSP and be nigh unkillable.
I know you bought the Mogh, and it's a fantastic, fun ship, but I still keep going back to my Bortasqu'. Can't live without the big lass.
Capital ships fail in STO because small ships tend to do so much better, not always but a lot of the time.
It really makes no sense, a destroyer would get blown out of the water by a battleship. Not just due to size but because of it's range and defense would not allow the destroyer to really harm it.
I think they either need to add extra defense to the larger ships and/or make crew size matter. Could also maybe give beams a longer range.
There's all kinda of ideas they could try to make the bigger ships more worthwhile.
As for the op's question it's going to depend on what your wanting more then anything. The consoles are not really worth getting imo.
The Bortasqu' has more hull than even the best Mogh. Its shields are only slightly weaker. With the full console set its turn rate is 6.5 meaning it is only 2.5 less than the Mogh which is still noticeable to be sure but not that big of a deal. The Bortasqu's Auto Cannon is utterly devastating combined with 5 tactical consoles and the HoH'SuS is not only a master pest and decoy but also has its OWN Auto-Cannon AND Attack Pattern Beta. Sub-Space Snare is evil in PvP and can be handy in PvE if you teleport enemies into bad things like explosions or warp plasma etc...
The only thing even the Fleet Mogh really has up on the Bortasqu' is its turn rate and the +10 to engine power. You could argue the fleet version has a tiiiny bit more shields but in actual practice it will rarely make a notable difference. Meanwhile the Bortasqu's Auto Cannon, the HoH'SuS, one more Tactical Console, and the bonuses from the console set make it far superior at killing enemies. In PvE there is no contest and in PvP if you learn how to use the Bortasqu' as ambush predator it will outshine the Mogh every time.
Now what about the 5th forward weapon? Well it can often be more of a hindrance than a help. If you try to fly the Mogh as a Duel Heavy Cannon boat then you will find yourself not able to keep enemies in your arc most of the time. If you are flying a Beam Array setup then it does not make any difference where that weapon is. If you are running Dual Beam Banks and Turrets (which is often Best) then having another DBB would be nice but unless you take some notable measures it will suck your power levels down fast and you will miss that extra 5 power the Bortasqu' has. Also the Bortasqu' being a heavier beast it can stand and fight longer than the Mogh allowing it to keep things better in that forward arc due to not having to run off as fast. The console set bonuses, extra weapon power, and the additional tactical console ultimately tend to outweigh the addition of one more forward weapon and the Auto-Cannon and HoH'SuS eclipse it in terms of Spike.
If you are an Engineer and thus can fully mitigate the weapon power issue then I would say you are flying the wrong ship to begin with because you should be in something flimsy. These mighty cruisers need solid Tactical Captains with their fire power enhancements, tactical readiness, and multiple turn rate bonuses.
If we are not talking Fleet Mogh then the comparison is LAUGHABLE as the Bortasqu' MURDERS it. However, if you do not have the $50.00 or the dilithium to convert in order to get the full pack from the Bortasqu' then it may not be an option and I understand that. I would say in that case go for the Fleet Tor'kaht (AKA the Fleet Vor'Cha) instead.
DISCLAIMER: I only have the anniversary Bortasqu and the standard C-Store Mogh. Your mileage may vary, particularly with the three-pack for the Bortasqu.
That said, I would make it fairly simple: If you enjoy of slow, heavy, heavily-armored ships, or you want a lot of options and can tolerate commanding a space whale to get them, then the Bortasqu is your ship. This IMO pretty much sums up just what the Bortasqu can do, and from what I've seen it can be a pretty fierce ship if you're willing to put the time into learning how to really use it.
Otherwise, go with the Mogh. The Mogh has good firepower and decent enough turn rate to use it for the most part, although I'd stick with DBB instead of cannons. That said, I'd do that with the Bortasqu, as well.
Capital ships fail in STO because small ships tend to do so much better, not always but a lot of the time.
It really makes no sense, a destroyer would get blown out of the water by a battleship. Not just due to size but because of it's range and defense would not allow the destroyer to really harm it.
This doesn't really follow. If you put a WW2 battleship against a WW2 destroyer, then yes. If you take a modern day guided missile destroyer and put that against the WW2 battleship, then no. Technological improvement over weapon systems matters more than a simplistic 'bigger is better' notion.
What a bigger ship should always have over a little ship is things like more manpower for damage control. Of course, this game doesn't really conceptualise that in a particularly good or relevant manner.
.....I think that could define the difference between battle cruisers & smaller but similarly equipped ships. There must be a point to having 3600 crewmen vs 150. But atm, you can't tell the difference between a bort and a bop when it comes to crew contribution or loss.
.....There should be some measurable advantage to carrying a small army around with you.
Yer numbers were wrong. (FIxed it for you) It takes packing all three "Optional" universals to get the Bort's turn rate up to 6 (by using the 3p bonus), effectively turning a 9 console ship into a 6 console ship to get the same turn as an Oddy.
Whoops, yeah I already factored it in, my mistake.
However this is what you get with the full set bonuses:
When 2 or more consoles are equipped, the following powers are given:
Set 2: Enhanced Tactical Systems
Passive
+0.5 Flight Turn Rate
25% Recharge time reduction to the Bortasqu' Console Set
+12 Starship Projectile Weapon Damage
+12 Starship Targeting Systems
+12 Starship Energy Weapon Specialization
Set 3: Enhanced Hoh'Sus Bird-of-Prey
Passive
Affects Friends (5 max)
0 kilometer Team
This bonus gives your Hoh'Sus Bird-of-Prey access to a weaker version of your Disruptor: Autocannon. In addition, it gains the Attack Pattern: Beta I ability.
That means the Autocannon can fire every 2 minutes and 24 seconds and the Subspace Snare and HoH'SuS can be fired off every 4 minutes.
You could simply not use these but it would be, IMHO, ill advised. The HoH'SuS is a great pet in PvP due to its ability to pester and be used as a Decoy (Hint: You can launch it while cloaked and remain cloaked). In PvE it can deliver substantial damage these days and help with its AT:B. It also survives a lot better than it once did (by avoiding explosions and the like).
You also get the Autocannon which is so obviously a win that you would have to be totally daft not to use it. 12 pulses of damage that can get rather high. I have easily dealt over 90K with the Autocannon alone.
Subspace Snare is the most questionable of the three. It is MOSTLY useful in PvP where it can be really good if you time it well and understand what you are doing. Due to the computer being dumb it is usually less useful in PvE but on occasion it can be crucial... (like when something gets stuck and you can unstick it this way and finally be able to kill it.)
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
That means the Autocannon can fire every 2 minutes and 24 seconds...
...You also get the Autocannon which is so obviously a win that you would have to be totally daft not to use it. 12 pulses of damage that can get rather high. I have easily dealt over 90K with the Autocannon alone.
.....The autocannon isn't all you would think it should be. The damage isn't that stellar. Two mins is still an eternity in combat. Even in an ESTF it's uses are extremely limited. And ESTF's are where you'll get the maximum damage out of it.
.....The standard CD for the auto cannon is 3mins. So you give up 3 console slots for a 45 second improvement in the CD on a weapon that doesn't do that much damage. Maybe when you get it to crit it's a big hitter but not in my experience. And I'm running a tactical bort with 5 disruptor consoles.
The HoH'SuS is a great pet in PvP due to its ability to pester and be used as a Decoy (Hint: You can launch it while cloaked and remain cloaked). In PvE it can deliver substantial damage these days and help with its AT:B. It also survives a lot better than it once did (by avoiding explosions and the like)...
... and the HoH'SuS can be fired off every 4 minutes.
.....In PVE the Hosus does little to no damage, almost always runs off and targets a gate by itself and is usually dead in under a minute. Under 30 seconds if it stupidly attacks a gate. In PVP one FAW or SCV and it's dead. And since those are constantly running in PVP, you can imagine it's lifespan there. So you get 1 minute or less of minimal damage and a 4 minute CD. You do the math.
Subspace Snare is the most questionable of the three. It is MOSTLY useful in PvP where it can be really good if you time it well and understand what you are doing...
... Due to the computer being dumb it is usually less useful in PvE but on occasion it can be crucial... (like when something gets stuck and you can unstick it this way and finally be able to kill it.)
.....Absolutely useless in PVP as everyone you encounter has innate or on-demand escape powers that nullify the snare altogether or eliminate the hold associated with it after it moves them. That combined with the 4 min CD guarantees that your enemies will never be without the ability to counter it.
.....Absolutely useless in PVE because you know where all of your targets will be at all times. Know where to put your floating cannon platform and you'll never have to chase your targets.
.....Stuck target? How often does that happen? Tab till you've selected the "stuck" target and kill it. Or ignore it and move on to your next major target. Eventually the stuck sphere will come to you.
.....There is the theory that using the snare and the autocannon together allows you to set up an alpha strike.It doesn't.
.....The autocannon takes a second or so to begin firing, and it does it's damage over a series of pulses. As noted above, almost every PVP enemy you encounter will have the ability to nullify the snare or the hold afterwards. So the auto cannon won't get a chance to fire, and if it does, there's a good possibility that one or more of the pulses will miss, or the target will be out of the firing arc before it's finished the firing cycle.
.....In PVE, Gravity well and tractor beams are far more useful because they can be used over and over. And you don't have to give up a console slot to use them. They are great for gathering sphere's so you can SCV them. Or locking them down so you can finish them off. They also do kinetic damage, even to fixed targets, something the snare lacks entirely.
Comments
That said, I find the Bortasqu unbearable. It's slower in turn even than an Oddy, but its inertia rating is much higher so it takes longer to do anything, even just getting up to speed slightly (from zero to 25% or 50% throttle) just to get turn rate out of the gutter. On paper it LOOKS like a KDF version of the oddy, but in practicality it's far worse.
[/QUOTE]
Nice point on that. I hadn't thought about inertia when comparing the experience to an Oddy.
Speaking of firing arcs: does anyone know from where the game begins measuring the arc? For example, does it originate from the very bow, or the saucer center, or whatever. I mean, with most KDF the weapon points are fairly obvious so I guess I'm wondering more about the fed ships.
R.I.P
Ex-CoH players, Please add the chat channel "CoX STO"
Calculations for firing arcs are made from the pivot point, which is generally somewhere near the centroid of the ship. Weapon hardpoints are used for drawing the visual of the weapon firing, but have no real impact on when the weapon fires.
(Which is why the Qin's turn is often complained about: compared to the Fed ships and their massive saucers, the Qin's long, thin neck is extends quite a bit forward of the centroid, making it look like it's sweeping about much more slowly)
Hehe thanks! Yes, that is me, altho nearly a decade ago.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
They both have eight weapons, there is no "extra gun". And I am not finding a 5/3 weapon distribution any better than the old 4/4 for beam weapons.
So, yes, the extra fwd weapon slot does even benefit beam boats. Just a bit. The better benefit is that you're not trapped into using BAs only. You have the option of running DBBs or cannons JUST as effectively as beams with no loss in capability.
.....I just tap full impulse on & off. It's an instant movement boost with no power penalty if you kill it immediately. If you can't use full impulse, there's always engine batteries.
.....This depends on the arena and your target. I use DHC's on my Tac bort in ESTF's. The targets are stationary, slow moving, and/or follow predictable paths.
.....If you're talking about the Breach, or defending the empire missions, it is easier/faster to do them with a beam boat. But they can be done with cannons and turrets.
.....If you're talking about PVP, no iteration of the Bort will benefit you.
.....I run DHC's and I don't use RCS or turn boosted consoles and I rarely use engine batteries. I have one neutronium console, one field gen console, & three healing abilities, Aux2 hull three, TSS one, & HE one. Everything else is aimed at maximizing my DPS.
.....I stay nose on to a target 99% of my time in the zone. The way to do that is to plan your movements so that you can maximize your time on each target and/or keep as many targets as possible within your firing arc. This is an easy thing to do in any ESTF.
.....Since you can't fly around on a whim, you have to plan your movements ahead of time. If you're smart about it, you can still be in position to pull a save out of your pocket if someone else drops the ball.
.....(Again, this does NOT apply to PVP.)
.....I agree. Once your shields are down, it doesn't feel like you're in a huge battle cruiser with 3600 crewmen. It feels more like you're in a raptor and the crew has already bailed on you. But, as noted above, I have only a few healing abilities and only one resist console (which will go away once I have plasmonic leach) but I rarely die. And that usually happens because I completely forget to pay attention to my health.
.....I think the squishiness comes from the broken crew mechanism. I can lose little or no hull health throughout the event and have huge crew losses. Which not only sucks, it drastically affects your hull regen rate.
......I have found a decent way to quickly repair my hull though. I use an auxillary battery (large or small) before I hit my aux2hull and/or my hazard emitters. I can recover huge chunks of hull (30% or more) in a few seconds. And I don't have to take power from another system to do it, so I can maintain my dmg output and shield regen rate.
I just don't see this as the best layout for boffs. it works well with my engineer Capitan only any other profession the layout stinks. id say if your an engineer get the Mogh its awsomesauce any other profession get something else all together.
unless you want to run it like a feddy bear. in which case I ask why are even playing the KDF. and anybody other than a engineer that thinks the Mogh is the best boff layout is willing, ill duel you in my Tor'kaht.
Incase your talking PvE it is still not the best: because any ship in the game is good enough for PvE. So if it stinks in the PvP area of the game but does good in PvE it can not be the best since, A ship that does good in PvP will also do good in PvE.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
LOL I didn't say PvE would work in PvP. I said any ship in the game will work in PvE.
and that any PvP ship will work in PvE. I never said a PvE would work in PvP. I was afraid some of you feddy bear players would get confused with that and not understand.
Funny how Cryptic only worked on this game in the past 3 years mostly for PvE not PvP. Cryptic made those Romulan Boff Space Traits for PvE while neglected PvP like they always do which in the end made this game ''unbalanced'' and made the Romulan faction as u would put it ''Super OP''.
I will put it for u so u can understand... Romulans Space Traits effects balance in PvP than it could in PvE because in PvP this unbalanced effects players aka real people not NPC's... besides do u see NPC'a going to the forums complaining how fast it got killed by a Romulan player that has 10% more crits and 25% more crit dmg than any Fed or KDF player because of the Romulan Republic Boff Space Traits.
Probably going to get some nice DBBs and see how I like that verses cannons. Then I'll drop my RCS in favor of a 4th neutronium, barring any serious obections.
There were a couple of people going back and forth in this thread about bridge costumes and which were better and all that. I don't want to try and find it for quoting purposes right now, but: one had mentioned that such and such a bridge was bad because it was too big and the BOFF's couldn't communicate efficiently. That's not really factored into the game is it?
IMO heavy nonsence. I playing STO cca two years , i know how complete all elite PvE mission with mirror ship for 50k ec from exchange.
95% PvE missions are destroy X in time limit. So it is no surprise, that nearly all PvE players have simply builds on the greatest amount of damage. Why using any tricks or special consoles? Why new ships? Only one OP thing on romulans is their operative boffs. And they are very expensive. This can be easy balanced with new boffs with space traits for FED and KDF. Ships are compareable with other newer ships. Or do you about something else?
PvP is reason why buying some new stuff and building a new ships. You can not surprise NPC with nothing. A few minutes shooting a stationary object to me does not seem like much fun .
PvP is not driving this game, as you claim. PvP in this game is horribly broken right now. Very few at al bother with it. PvE is the vast majority of the draw this game has. It is also quite broken, but in different ways. It will be fixing these broken aspects of the PvE which will save this game. And I don't mean "make it more money" -- I mean "save it from being dropped by 99% of all the players because it has broken gameplay mechanics."
Along the way, PvP may be resurrected and fixed to play akin to what the idea PvE should, only with players instead of AI. However, it is the PvE which is the crux of the matter, and the focal point of the game.
This game would be 100% dead in the water with no profits if it was ONLY PvP right now, as it stands with the current code in place. It would be scorned more than BSG Online.
R.I.P
It's a game. You SHOULD kill every NPC you meet. In fact, if you die, EVER, due to the NPCs I say it's badly designed... then again this game has proven to be so badly designed on many levels. The game should test you, should test your teamwork, and you should be able to fail missions, but you should NEVER be put into a situation where you die. Not when you have decent equipment, not when you have experience, skill points, and know how to play the game. The fact that it's a game means that you don't really die -- you get multiple lives -- but if you DIE you have lost the mission. In spirit it's not only totally breaking the immersion and the roleplaying, but it also breaks the genre and it is TRIBBLE poor game design.
If you have no recourse, no cover system, no way to mitigate damage or to be smart and avoid it, and you DIE, it's a bad gameplay mechanic. It's even worse if the game totally insta-gibs you repeatedly while giving you NO defense and NO recourse from the nonsenically powered AI.
Yes, PvE, ****IF**** it were properly balanced, will save this game. The uber-broken PvP will not.
No new maps.
No new PVP modes.
No split queues between PUGs and Pre-Mades.
No nothing. Absolutely NO attention has been provided to PVP since this game released.
As for PVE in this game, it's sorry state is in Cryptic's hands. All their work has been pretty much for PVE, and we have what we have. The woeful state of balance in this game hasn't been due to PVP. It's due to Cryptic's game design of Damage > Anything Else. Cryptic also has been increasing the Power Creep. More buffs, more set bonuses, more set bonuses within a reputation set, more reputation, more reputation buffs both active and passive, more subsystem power, more hits, more crits, more crit severity, more defense for escorts, more everything.
The act of Cryptic adding all this power in itself wasn't wrong. What was wrong was that there was no sacrificing anything. When you look at any random player's ship during combat and see the bewildering array of buffs, that is what's wrong with balance in this game. That is whats' wrong with the retardedly simple nature of PVE in this game. We can blitz through TAC Cubes in less than 5 seconds now, way before my first activation of CRF has finished. Long ago, that was unimaginable.
Then we also have Cryptic nerfing worthy content to the point that you can sit back and do nothing, yet complete it successfully. Case in point? The massive nerfing of "Defense of New Romulus."
And all this rests on what Cryptic has done or neglected to do.
Also:
Star Trek Online History 101
When STO released, there was a very large PVP playerbase. The playerbase numbers were still heavily slanted towards the Feds, but the very large numbers of KDF was noticeably large. The queues were popping constantly. There were soooo many Feds looking for a fight, and not enough KDF to keep those queues popping for all the Feds that had a long line to fight in PVP. You literally could have levelled up solely from PVP'ing, from the moment you were eligible (5, IIRC? Maybe Lv10, but you were still eligible at Lieutenant / Warrior), all the way to the level cap of 40 at the time. Fed, KDF, it was possible.
Participation in PVP was very large, but due to a variety of factors, including neglect of anything PVP, that fruit was allowed to rot.
The Bortasqu' is a big, sexy powerhouse, and I really, really enjoy flying her.
The messages I get all over when they see my Bortasqu' in full Aegis, glowing red and looking sexy in orbit strokes my ego. That's not to say the Bortasqu' is weak, though! I have mine set up with Fleet Antiproton beams, the Sphere of Influence core and Omnidirectional AP beam, and a fairly tanky loadout and it can turn as well as most battlecruisers, dart all over the battlefield and deal fairly good amount of damage with Fire at Will, especially if I use the Weapon Efficiency cruiser command.
I really just fly her like a mobile fortress, spewing red beams of death and destruction as it slumbers across the battlefield, quickly repairing all damage done to it whilst keeping a high damage resistance. 2 Fleet Neutronium consoles, 1 Fleet RCS console do really well on the ship, and since the Borg mostly spam torpedoes (therefore most of their damage is kinetic-based), Auxiliary to Inertial Dampeners gives you not only a turn rate and speed boost, but a fairly massive kinetic resistance boost. My Bortasqu' isn't your grandma's slumbering version of it. She's agile, can spew Antiprots left and right and lay down the damage, play it super defensively (especially if I switch to the Shield resistance cruiser command), and can move pretty quickly in short bursts
She's a very flexible and powerful ship, and the cool factor alone will make you love the ship. She just looks like a KDF powerhouse, the kind of ship you expect to spearhead strikes, with a flotilla of BoPs and Raptors keeping it in check. Play it as you want, since you get a fairly useful LtComm uni BOff slot: put a Sci BOff there and spam all the Gravity Wells you want, or slam as many shield heals are you want; slap a Tac BOff there and put Attack Pattern Beta and possibly Attack Pattern Delta, and take the heat and therefore lower the enemy's damage resistance to make it easier for your crew to finish the enemy off, or put Attack Pattern Omega and pair it with Aux2Dampeners for massive mobility boosts; or slap an Engi BOff, put maybe Eject Warp Plasma and RSP and be nigh unkillable.
I know you bought the Mogh, and it's a fantastic, fun ship, but I still keep going back to my Bortasqu'. Can't live without the big lass.
It really makes no sense, a destroyer would get blown out of the water by a battleship. Not just due to size but because of it's range and defense would not allow the destroyer to really harm it.
I think they either need to add extra defense to the larger ships and/or make crew size matter. Could also maybe give beams a longer range.
There's all kinda of ideas they could try to make the bigger ships more worthwhile.
As for the op's question it's going to depend on what your wanting more then anything. The consoles are not really worth getting imo.
That Auto Cannon is far more powerful than the DDDS which is mostly a waste of a console.
Look at this:
Tactical Bortasqu
Hull: 43,500
Shield Modifer: 1
Turn Rate: 6
Power Bonus: +15 Weapons
3,600 Crew
Consoles:
5 Tactical
4 Engineering
1 Science
Mogh
Hull: 37,500
Shield Modifyer: 1
Turn Rate: 9
Power Bonus: +10 Weapons, +10 Engines
2,000 Crew
Consoles:
4 Tactical
4 Engineering
1 Science
Fleet Mogh
Hull: 41,250
Shield Modifer: 1.1
Turn Rate: 9
Power Bonus: +10 Weapons, +10 Engines
2,000 Crew
4 Tactical
4 Engineering
2 Science
The Bortasqu' has more hull than even the best Mogh. Its shields are only slightly weaker. With the full console set its turn rate is 6.5 meaning it is only 2.5 less than the Mogh which is still noticeable to be sure but not that big of a deal. The Bortasqu's Auto Cannon is utterly devastating combined with 5 tactical consoles and the HoH'SuS is not only a master pest and decoy but also has its OWN Auto-Cannon AND Attack Pattern Beta. Sub-Space Snare is evil in PvP and can be handy in PvE if you teleport enemies into bad things like explosions or warp plasma etc...
The only thing even the Fleet Mogh really has up on the Bortasqu' is its turn rate and the +10 to engine power. You could argue the fleet version has a tiiiny bit more shields but in actual practice it will rarely make a notable difference. Meanwhile the Bortasqu's Auto Cannon, the HoH'SuS, one more Tactical Console, and the bonuses from the console set make it far superior at killing enemies. In PvE there is no contest and in PvP if you learn how to use the Bortasqu' as ambush predator it will outshine the Mogh every time.
Now what about the 5th forward weapon? Well it can often be more of a hindrance than a help. If you try to fly the Mogh as a Duel Heavy Cannon boat then you will find yourself not able to keep enemies in your arc most of the time. If you are flying a Beam Array setup then it does not make any difference where that weapon is. If you are running Dual Beam Banks and Turrets (which is often Best) then having another DBB would be nice but unless you take some notable measures it will suck your power levels down fast and you will miss that extra 5 power the Bortasqu' has. Also the Bortasqu' being a heavier beast it can stand and fight longer than the Mogh allowing it to keep things better in that forward arc due to not having to run off as fast. The console set bonuses, extra weapon power, and the additional tactical console ultimately tend to outweigh the addition of one more forward weapon and the Auto-Cannon and HoH'SuS eclipse it in terms of Spike.
If you are an Engineer and thus can fully mitigate the weapon power issue then I would say you are flying the wrong ship to begin with because you should be in something flimsy. These mighty cruisers need solid Tactical Captains with their fire power enhancements, tactical readiness, and multiple turn rate bonuses.
If we are not talking Fleet Mogh then the comparison is LAUGHABLE as the Bortasqu' MURDERS it. However, if you do not have the $50.00 or the dilithium to convert in order to get the full pack from the Bortasqu' then it may not be an option and I understand that. I would say in that case go for the Fleet Tor'kaht (AKA the Fleet Vor'Cha) instead.
That said, I would make it fairly simple: If you enjoy of slow, heavy, heavily-armored ships, or you want a lot of options and can tolerate commanding a space whale to get them, then the Bortasqu is your ship. This IMO pretty much sums up just what the Bortasqu can do, and from what I've seen it can be a pretty fierce ship if you're willing to put the time into learning how to really use it.
Otherwise, go with the Mogh. The Mogh has good firepower and decent enough turn rate to use it for the most part, although I'd stick with DBB instead of cannons. That said, I'd do that with the Bortasqu, as well.
What a bigger ship should always have over a little ship is things like more manpower for damage control. Of course, this game doesn't really conceptualise that in a particularly good or relevant manner.
.....I think that could define the difference between battle cruisers & smaller but similarly equipped ships. There must be a point to having 3600 crewmen vs 150. But atm, you can't tell the difference between a bort and a bop when it comes to crew contribution or loss.
.....There should be some measurable advantage to carrying a small army around with you.
Whoops, yeah I already factored it in, my mistake.
However this is what you get with the full set bonuses:
When 2 or more consoles are equipped, the following powers are given:
Set 2: Enhanced Tactical Systems
Passive
+0.5 Flight Turn Rate
25% Recharge time reduction to the Bortasqu' Console Set
+12 Starship Projectile Weapon Damage
+12 Starship Targeting Systems
+12 Starship Energy Weapon Specialization
Set 3: Enhanced Hoh'Sus Bird-of-Prey
Passive
Affects Friends (5 max)
0 kilometer Team
This bonus gives your Hoh'Sus Bird-of-Prey access to a weaker version of your Disruptor: Autocannon. In addition, it gains the Attack Pattern: Beta I ability.
That means the Autocannon can fire every 2 minutes and 24 seconds and the Subspace Snare and HoH'SuS can be fired off every 4 minutes.
You could simply not use these but it would be, IMHO, ill advised. The HoH'SuS is a great pet in PvP due to its ability to pester and be used as a Decoy (Hint: You can launch it while cloaked and remain cloaked). In PvE it can deliver substantial damage these days and help with its AT:B. It also survives a lot better than it once did (by avoiding explosions and the like).
You also get the Autocannon which is so obviously a win that you would have to be totally daft not to use it. 12 pulses of damage that can get rather high. I have easily dealt over 90K with the Autocannon alone.
Subspace Snare is the most questionable of the three. It is MOSTLY useful in PvP where it can be really good if you time it well and understand what you are doing. Due to the computer being dumb it is usually less useful in PvE but on occasion it can be crucial... (like when something gets stuck and you can unstick it this way and finally be able to kill it.)
The powerslide of doom is fun.
Trying to buy that MAM Specialist DOFF on the KDF side is not though.
As has been brought out, the bort power slides, which when done skillfully and purposefully is effective. However for some this is undesirable.
I suppose a question to ask is how do you want your ship to handle?
.....The autocannon isn't all you would think it should be. The damage isn't that stellar. Two mins is still an eternity in combat. Even in an ESTF it's uses are extremely limited. And ESTF's are where you'll get the maximum damage out of it.
.....The standard CD for the auto cannon is 3mins. So you give up 3 console slots for a 45 second improvement in the CD on a weapon that doesn't do that much damage. Maybe when you get it to crit it's a big hitter but not in my experience. And I'm running a tactical bort with 5 disruptor consoles.
.....In PVE the Hosus does little to no damage, almost always runs off and targets a gate by itself and is usually dead in under a minute. Under 30 seconds if it stupidly attacks a gate. In PVP one FAW or SCV and it's dead. And since those are constantly running in PVP, you can imagine it's lifespan there. So you get 1 minute or less of minimal damage and a 4 minute CD. You do the math.
.....Absolutely useless in PVP as everyone you encounter has innate or on-demand escape powers that nullify the snare altogether or eliminate the hold associated with it after it moves them. That combined with the 4 min CD guarantees that your enemies will never be without the ability to counter it.
.....Absolutely useless in PVE because you know where all of your targets will be at all times. Know where to put your floating cannon platform and you'll never have to chase your targets.
.....Stuck target? How often does that happen? Tab till you've selected the "stuck" target and kill it. Or ignore it and move on to your next major target. Eventually the stuck sphere will come to you.
.....There is the theory that using the snare and the autocannon together allows you to set up an alpha strike. It doesn't.
.....The autocannon takes a second or so to begin firing, and it does it's damage over a series of pulses. As noted above, almost every PVP enemy you encounter will have the ability to nullify the snare or the hold afterwards. So the auto cannon won't get a chance to fire, and if it does, there's a good possibility that one or more of the pulses will miss, or the target will be out of the firing arc before it's finished the firing cycle.
.....In PVE, Gravity well and tractor beams are far more useful because they can be used over and over. And you don't have to give up a console slot to use them. They are great for gathering sphere's so you can SCV them. Or locking them down so you can finish them off. They also do kinetic damage, even to fixed targets, something the snare lacks entirely.