The Bortasqu is a whale. Plus if you look at the difference between the two, you can have 1 Bortasqu with one bundle ship's console, or 3 for the price of 2.
But you can save money by buying the Mogh and a Fleet Ship Module and call it a day.
Let's talk weapons. The Bortasqu has a 4-Fore, 4-Aft set up. The Mogh has 5-Fore, 3-Aft.
The Mogh is a clear winner in my mind.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
Also, may as well spend the extra $5 even for one character and get the console. Even if its not great, you are covered on all current and future characters and get a nice toy.
You can also fly the C-store one a bit before investing a permanent ship slot on her, if it turns out she is just a passing fancy.
I once again match my character. Behold the power of PINK!
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
Personally, I love my Bortas to bits. It's a joy to figure out how to fly it well and the battlefield presence the ship has is quite satisfying - people do follow the lumbering beast as it approaches encounters.
That said, anything the Bortasqu does, the Mogh can do better. Its fifth forward weapon slot means it simply has more firepower(one thing few ships could rival the Bortasqu in until the Romulan faction), it's as agile as most other KDF battlecruisers, can take a ton of punishment, and has a lot of bridge flexibility that allows it to excel in almost any role.
Discard the DDDS. Unlike the Auto-cannon's alpha striking usefulness, the Mogh's console just wastes an extremely valuable console slot for a weapon that doesn't even provide a noticeable amount of damage.
If you absolutely want a console-based weapon, the KDF has much better options like the Isometric Charge or even the Disruptor Point Defense system(lockbox).
I'll counter that attitude with this: at this point in time, the majority of KDF players are people who had to start with a Federation toon, in those big, slow cruisers.
It's no lack of "Skill"-it doesn't TAKE any skill to roll along in a circle spamming FAW on an Aux2Batt build running Marion and two Tech doffs.
It's a lack of devotion-making the Bort function requires a cult-like obsession with making the Bort function. IOW in order to 'like' the ship, you have to be devoted to it.
a Mogh plays like a KDF design, the Bortasque plays like a Failaxy with more tac consoles and a slightly better Bridge Officer layout, meaning that if you're intending to do anything other than jackhammering stationary Borg targets, you're going to be devoting a lot of resources just to make it work.
by contrast, the Mogh just works. The builds that work should be familiar to any Vor'cha or Tor'kaht pilot, only they work better on a Mogh.
The difference ends up being, you can "Play" with a Mogh, running a Bort is work.
Well said. Bort vs Mogh? Mogh hands down, every time. Regardless of your setup, your playstyle, anything you choose to do, the Mogh will just be better in general to play with.
The Mogh is the ideal KDF DHC battlecruiser at the moment. Turns and behaves as you would expect of a klngon design, kind of ironic considering where the stats came from.
The stats were based off KDF battlecruisers. The Avenger and Mogh were both always intended to be released with similar stats, people keep saying the Mogh is a copy of the Avenger when the Avenger is a copy of KDF battlecruisers.
I want to thank everybody for their input thus far. Most of you stayed on topic I did go ahead and get the Mogh, but so far I'm concerned I wasted my money. Before the Mogh came out I had my eye on the Tac Bort for when my KDF hit lvl 50. But with the Mogh I felt I had to consider it as an option.
I spent a few hours going over what few opinions I could find on the forums before posting my own question. The one theme I noticed was that people complained about the Bort turn rate. Thing is, I remember reading the same thing about the oddy, but went ahead and bought one for my fed engy toon. I've always loved it. The truth with it is that you have to use it the right way. I have an escort for another toon and its ok, does great dmg, but not as fun as my oddy. I also have a vesta which I like and when I took my new Mogh out for a test spin it felt similar to that. I thought the turn rate thing might turn out the way it did with my oddy but when your spending real money you want to minimize the risk.
So anyways I went with a Mogh, and I have to get use to it, but at the moment I'm not sure I'm going to like it. And yeah, that DDDS console is useless. nice fireworks display but I watch the numbers after launch and it does almost nothing. In the end I suppose someday I will go ahead and also buy a Tac bort.
One other thing I was wondering: In another thread someone had mentioned using 5 DBB on the Mogh instead of the DHCs. I thought that a bit unorthodox, but whatdya think? A little lower dps, but it would widen my arc. Right now I've got 3 neutroniums and an RCS to make SURE I can keep my guns to bear. But maybe with the DBBs I could scrap the RCS and throw on another neutronium or maybe an sif generator. Any thoughts on that?
Also: As far as helpful answers: tggrinc and Kimmym win the prize - thanks guys. (And nice necklace, Kimmym, if that is really you!)
And before I sign off completely I have to say one thing. I hate to start or partake in any arguments, but I have to take issue with the suggestion that flying a cruiser takes no skill. If you set your cruiser up only to maximize your dps, so that all your doing is flying in a circle hitting space bar - then MAYBE I can kind of see your point. But if you've set it up as a healer, which is a crucial role for a team to fill, and one which the cruiser can be really good at, then you definitely need some skill. Because now you're not just watching your own health, but that of your 4 team mates. You've got to make sure you keep close to the majority of them so you have to pay attention to where you are and where you are going, know the range before you throw them a heal, plus you have to know who REALLY needs the heal versus who has something in reserve, when to heal, which heal, plus keep something for yourself, etc etc. You really have to have your eyes on everything around you and know what's going on. I'd say that takes quite a bit of skill. And nimble fingers. I think all classes of ship take skill if...IF... you set it up to fill the role it is suppose to fill as a TEAM player and not just another dps number cruncher. That's the escorts job. not necessarily the cruiser or sci ships job.
I here a lot of complaints about the game being too dps centric. Maybe. But I wonder if the real problem is that the PLAYERS are too dps centric and want everything to be a killer. There is honor and fun to be had in being the support.
For what it's worth, my main fed ran an oddy for over a year. I enjoyed it. It was rather tanky even when you set the boffs up for tactical emphasis. I could (and do) get respectable damage out of it. It's a nice all-round cruiser.
That said, I find the Bortasqu unbearable. It's slower in turn even than an Oddy, but its inertia rating is much higher so it takes longer to do anything, even just getting up to speed slightly (from zero to 25% or 50% throttle) just to get turn rate out of the gutter. On paper it LOOKS like a KDF version of the oddy, but in practicality it's far worse.
I speak from much experience with cruisers. I also (like you) disagree that flying a cruiser takes no skill. HOWEVER, there is the problem that the Bort REQUIRES you to fly it as a beam cruiser or you lose a ton of pratical effectiveness out of the ship. You have to run all BAs because you'll almost never get DHCs on target.
Those few (in the minority) that claim to do so end up doing it at the expense of any armor, or any healing skills, or any firepower, because they have only slotted skills and specs that help the ship turn better, instead of those that help it FIGHT better.
It's also quite squishy IMO. There's something about it where you just bleed hull points for no reason at times.
Further, I have the fed Avenger. Basically the fed Mogh. Anything my Oddy fed could do, it can do better in the Avenger. It doesn't need to lose console slots on RCS consoles, it doesn't need to waste ENG boff slots on EPTE or A2Damp or whatnot, and it doesn't need to be totally mindlessly focused on boosting turn rate. You can actually put effort into loading it out how you WANT, instead of how you NEED.
That's the thing. The Mogh CAN run exactly as you can load out a Borty, but a Borty can only really be effective in one loadout, with one set of boffs. Anything you can load out on the bort you can load out on the Mogh, and it will just do it better. It has a very good hull, same shields, better weapons slots, good console setup. And IF you simply MUST make it a super tank you CAN make it a super tank because you have more ENG consoles to devote to armor plating, whereas on the Bort you need to save that space for RCS. Or you can slot universals like plasmonic or zero point or tachyokinetic, or whatever can boost your game for you.
DBBs up front can work, yes. Often it's used on ships with less tactical boff setup, so that you can slot a higher skill FAW into a lower rank boff slot (instead of CSV1 you get FAW2, etc). However it works great in the Avenger/Mogh. It has a wider angle than DHC/DC so you don't even need to turn as tightly to face your target. Mount 360 Ap, KCB, and a turret or min on the back slots as well. Perfectly valid setup! I run DBBs on a couple of my toon alternates right now.
OP, I'd recommend going with your preferance. If you're used to big slow cruisers then the Bortasqu' will do better for you. If you prefer a ship that does a bit less damage but manoeuvres better then grab the Mogh.
I know Patrickngo will make it out that the Bortasqu' is obsolete and worthless and no good for anything but sticking a Fed cruisers build on. I know this to be wrong. I fly a Bortasqu' with DHCs and it works just fine. I have a Fleet Avenger, with a similar setup to my Bortasqu' and it does less damage. I find the Autocannon more useful than the V.A.T.A because it does Disruptor Damage, which means its boosted by your 5 tac consoles and its an energy weapons so it can punch through shields easier.
Having said that I love my Avenger, and would have bought the Mogh had they brought them out at the same time. The Avenger and the Mogh are more alike than the Ody and the Bort, in fact besides the cloak being built in and the console acting slightly differently, they're identical.
And to those referring to the Bortasqu' as not being a traditional Klingon Battlecruiser, look at the Klingon timeline of designs. D5-D7-K'Tinga-Vor'cha-Negh'Var-Bortasqu' They get bigger and more powerful as time goes on, with the D-5 being around 200m long and the Bortasqu' being 1100m long. The Bortasqu' simply shows the evolution of Klingon design. The Mogh and Tor'Kaht are probably just the Klingons replacements for the K'Tingas and Vor'Chas which are beginning to age.
OP, I'd recommend going with your preferance. If you're used to big slow cruisers then the Bortasqu' will do better for you. If you prefer a ship that does a bit less damage but manoeuvres better then grab the Mogh.
That's not quite correct: If you prefer ships that are big tankwhales, then the Bortasqu is for you. If you want a ship that both maneuvers better AND does damage better, the Mogh is what you want. The Mogh's extra gun outguns the Bort, and its ability to get those guns on target is another point in its favor. The Bort is just a big brick.
That said, I find the Bortasqu unbearable. It's slower in turn even than an Oddy, but its inertia rating is much higher so it takes longer to do anything, even just getting up to speed slightly (from zero to 25% or 50% throttle) just to get turn rate out of the gutter. On paper it LOOKS like a KDF version of the oddy, but in practicality it's far worse.
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Nice point on that. I hadn't thought about inertia when comparing the experience to an Oddy.
Speaking of firing arcs: does anyone know from where the game begins measuring the arc? For example, does it originate from the very bow, or the saucer center, or whatever. I mean, with most KDF the weapon points are fairly obvious so I guess I'm wondering more about the fed ships.
Speaking of firing arcs: does anyone know from where the game begins measuring the arc? For example, does it originate from the very bow, or the saucer center, or whatever. I mean, with most KDF the weapon points are fairly obvious so I guess I'm wondering more about the fed ships.
Calculations for firing arcs are made from the pivot point, which is generally somewhere near the centroid of the ship. Weapon hardpoints are used for drawing the visual of the weapon firing, but have no real impact on when the weapon fires.
(Which is why the Qin's turn is often complained about: compared to the Fed ships and their massive saucers, the Qin's long, thin neck is extends quite a bit forward of the centroid, making it look like it's sweeping about much more slowly)
For the odd times when your target is in your front quarter, you are firing 5 beams instead of 4 (as you would on 4/4 cruisers). You don't benefit as obviously as with front-only weapons, but you do benefit. Also with the greater maneuverability you can literally fly zig-zags and semi circles to keep firing on a target while presenting different shield faces. I do this with CCE to good effect. When you do that there are times you're facing the target and your aft beam arrays can't fire.
So, yes, the extra fwd weapon slot does even benefit beam boats. Just a bit. The better benefit is that you're not trapped into using BAs only. You have the option of running DBBs or cannons JUST as effectively as beams with no loss in capability.
its inertia rating is much higher so it takes longer to do anything, even just getting up to speed slightly (from zero to 25% or 50% throttle) just to get turn rate out of the gutter.
.....I just tap full impulse on & off. It's an instant movement boost with no power penalty if you kill it immediately. If you can't use full impulse, there's always engine batteries.
the Bort REQUIRES you to fly it as a beam cruiser or you lose a ton of practical effectiveness out of the ship. You have to run all BAs because you'll almost never get DHCs on target.
.....This depends on the arena and your target. I use DHC's on my Tac bort in ESTF's. The targets are stationary, slow moving, and/or follow predictable paths.
.....If you're talking about the Breach, or defending the empire missions, it is easier/faster to do them with a beam boat. But they can be done with cannons and turrets.
.....If you're talking about PVP,no iteration of the Bort will benefit you.
Those few (in the minority) that claim to do so end up doing it at the expense of any armor, or any healing skills, or any firepower, because they have only slotted skills and specs that help the ship turn better, instead of those that help it FIGHT better.
.....I run DHC's and I don't use RCS or turn boosted consoles and I rarely use engine batteries. I have one neutronium console, one field gen console, & three healing abilities, Aux2 hull three, TSS one, & HE one. Everything else is aimed at maximizing my DPS.
.....I stay nose on to a target 99% of my time in the zone. The way to do that is to plan your movements so that you can maximize your time on each target and/or keep as many targets as possible within your firing arc. This is an easy thing to do in any ESTF.
.....Since you can't fly around on a whim, you have to plan your movements ahead of time. If you're smart about it, you can still be in position to pull a save out of your pocket if someone else drops the ball.
.....(Again, this does NOT apply to PVP.)
It's also quite squishy IMO. There's something about it where you just bleed hull points for no reason at times.
.....I agree. Once your shields are down, it doesn't feel like you're in a huge battle cruiser with 3600 crewmen. It feels more like you're in a raptor and the crew has already bailed on you. But, as noted above, I have only a few healing abilities and only one resist console (which will go away once I have plasmonic leach) but I rarely die. And that usually happens because I completely forget to pay attention to my health.
.....I think the squishiness comes from the broken crew mechanism. I can lose little or no hull health throughout the event and have huge crew losses. Which not only sucks, it drastically affects your hull regen rate.
......I have found a decent way to quickly repair my hull though. I use an auxillary battery (large or small) before I hit my aux2hull and/or my hazard emitters. I can recover huge chunks of hull (30% or more) in a few seconds. And I don't have to take power from another system to do it, so I can maintain my dmg output and shield regen rate.
OP, do a search for Bortasqu threads on this subforum and you can see all the colorful opinions about this highly divisive ship in the KDF.
You are either going to adore the ship or consider it the worst purchase you'll ever make in STO.
Personally, I'd say the Mogh. It moves well, heavy forward firepower, and the BOFF station layout is among the best in the game (alongside its "Avenger" twin).
The Bortasqu' is controversial. It CAN dish out alot of damage. It CAN be built to soak alot. But the movement of the ship is terrible and you have to put alot of effort, more than usual, to make this even move like molasses in winter. The 2 and 3 piece Console bonuses are lackluster. The turn rate bonus is... wait a minute now... +0.5
Yes, I said "0.5" as in improving your base turn rate by only 0.5.
Autocannon - Fabulous console but has a very long cooldown. Since it's a forward arc weapon on a fantastically slow turning ship even with Cruiser Commands and such, on a very long cooldown, it's a horrible waste.
The Bortasqu' isn't something I can recommend. Only if you've really done your homework on it and love flying immovable objects. And for Kahless' sake, it's even more reason of a warning before you even do the Bortasqu' 3-pack.
I bought the 3 pack long ago, and I consider it my worst purchase I have ever made in this game, then and now.
You've been warned.
I just don't see this as the best layout for boffs. it works well with my engineer Capitan only any other profession the layout stinks. id say if your an engineer get the Mogh its awsomesauce any other profession get something else all together.
unless you want to run it like a feddy bear. in which case I ask why are even playing the KDF. and anybody other than a engineer that thinks the Mogh is the best boff layout is willing, ill duel you in my Tor'kaht.
Incase your talking PvE it is still not the best: because any ship in the game is good enough for PvE. So if it stinks in the PvP area of the game but does good in PvE it can not be the best since, A ship that does good in PvP will also do good in PvE.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
TRIBBLE PvP. PvP is the reason we have the super OP unbalanced ROM faction. PvP is killing this game's true PvE potential.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
TRIBBLE PvP. PvP is the reason we have the super OP unbalanced ROM faction. PvP is killing this game's true PvE potential.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
LOL I didn't say PvE would work in PvP. I said any ship in the game will work in PvE.
and that any PvP ship will work in PvE. I never said a PvE would work in PvP. I was afraid some of you feddy bear players would get confused with that and not understand.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
TRIBBLE PvP. PvP is the reason we have the super OP unbalanced ROM faction. PvP is killing this game's true PvE potential.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
Funny how Cryptic only worked on this game in the past 3 years mostly for PvE not PvP. Cryptic made those Romulan Boff Space Traits for PvE while neglected PvP like they always do which in the end made this game ''unbalanced'' and made the Romulan faction as u would put it ''Super OP''.
I will put it for u so u can understand... Romulans Space Traits effects balance in PvP than it could in PvE because in PvP this unbalanced effects players aka real people not NPC's... besides do u see NPC'a going to the forums complaining how fast it got killed by a Romulan player that has 10% more crits and 25% more crit dmg than any Fed or KDF player because of the Romulan Republic Boff Space Traits.
Well, I initially expressed disappointment with my Mogh, but I am starting to get used to it. And it seems that the ddds can do some damage sometimes, never seems to do much on its own but if I keep firing and hit the dmg resist proc it does nice dmg. (not convinced to keep it around though).
Probably going to get some nice DBBs and see how I like that verses cannons. Then I'll drop my RCS in favor of a 4th neutronium, barring any serious obections.
There were a couple of people going back and forth in this thread about bridge costumes and which were better and all that. I don't want to try and find it for quoting purposes right now, but: one had mentioned that such and such a bridge was bad because it was too big and the BOFF's couldn't communicate efficiently. That's not really factored into the game is it?
TRIBBLE PvP. PvP is the reason we have the super OP unbalanced ROM faction. PvP is killing this game's true PvE potential.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
IMO heavy nonsence. I playing STO cca two years , i know how complete all elite PvE mission with mirror ship for 50k ec from exchange.
95% PvE missions are destroy X in time limit. So it is no surprise, that nearly all PvE players have simply builds on the greatest amount of damage. Why using any tricks or special consoles? Why new ships? Only one OP thing on romulans is their operative boffs. And they are very expensive. This can be easy balanced with new boffs with space traits for FED and KDF. Ships are compareable with other newer ships. Or do you about something else?
PvP is reason why buying some new stuff and building a new ships. You can not surprise NPC with nothing. A few minutes shooting a stationary object to me does not seem like much fun .
To that end you need only 1 button and 1 key on your keyboard, and only ever 1 ship and no shields, and no weapon types. The different ships are there for the enjoyment of the player USING them, not because they are needed. Strictly speaking this is a game and is not NEEDED. Nothing about it is. However, given that it IS a game and it follows a theme and certain patterns, it holds with it certain expectations in terms of genre (MMORPG) and theme (Star Trek).
PvP is not driving this game, as you claim. PvP in this game is horribly broken right now. Very few at al bother with it. PvE is the vast majority of the draw this game has. It is also quite broken, but in different ways. It will be fixing these broken aspects of the PvE which will save this game. And I don't mean "make it more money" -- I mean "save it from being dropped by 99% of all the players because it has broken gameplay mechanics."
Along the way, PvP may be resurrected and fixed to play akin to what the idea PvE should, only with players instead of AI. However, it is the PvE which is the crux of the matter, and the focal point of the game.
This game would be 100% dead in the water with no profits if it was ONLY PvP right now, as it stands with the current code in place. It would be scorned more than BSG Online.
I didn't say there WAS balance. I said if it HAD balance that would save this game.
It's a game. You SHOULD kill every NPC you meet. In fact, if you die, EVER, due to the NPCs I say it's badly designed... then again this game has proven to be so badly designed on many levels. The game should test you, should test your teamwork, and you should be able to fail missions, but you should NEVER be put into a situation where you die. Not when you have decent equipment, not when you have experience, skill points, and know how to play the game. The fact that it's a game means that you don't really die -- you get multiple lives -- but if you DIE you have lost the mission. In spirit it's not only totally breaking the immersion and the roleplaying, but it also breaks the genre and it is TRIBBLE poor game design.
If you have no recourse, no cover system, no way to mitigate damage or to be smart and avoid it, and you DIE, it's a bad gameplay mechanic. It's even worse if the game totally insta-gibs you repeatedly while giving you NO defense and NO recourse from the nonsenically powered AI.
Yes, PvE, ****IF**** it were properly balanced, will save this game. The uber-broken PvP will not.
Comments
The Bortasqu is a whale. Plus if you look at the difference between the two, you can have 1 Bortasqu with one bundle ship's console, or 3 for the price of 2.
But you can save money by buying the Mogh and a Fleet Ship Module and call it a day.
Let's talk weapons. The Bortasqu has a 4-Fore, 4-Aft set up. The Mogh has 5-Fore, 3-Aft.
The Mogh is a clear winner in my mind.
Dreadnought class. Two times the size, three times the speed. Advanced weaponry. Modified for a minimal crew. Unlike most Federation vessels, it's built solely for combat.
The C-Store variant is also an account unlock. It's a big deal if you have several KDF toons.
You can also fly the C-store one a bit before investing a permanent ship slot on her, if it turns out she is just a passing fancy.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
That said, anything the Bortasqu does, the Mogh can do better. Its fifth forward weapon slot means it simply has more firepower(one thing few ships could rival the Bortasqu in until the Romulan faction), it's as agile as most other KDF battlecruisers, can take a ton of punishment, and has a lot of bridge flexibility that allows it to excel in almost any role.
Discard the DDDS. Unlike the Auto-cannon's alpha striking usefulness, the Mogh's console just wastes an extremely valuable console slot for a weapon that doesn't even provide a noticeable amount of damage.
If you absolutely want a console-based weapon, the KDF has much better options like the Isometric Charge or even the Disruptor Point Defense system(lockbox).
Well said. Bort vs Mogh? Mogh hands down, every time. Regardless of your setup, your playstyle, anything you choose to do, the Mogh will just be better in general to play with.
The stats were based off KDF battlecruisers. The Avenger and Mogh were both always intended to be released with similar stats, people keep saying the Mogh is a copy of the Avenger when the Avenger is a copy of KDF battlecruisers.
I spent a few hours going over what few opinions I could find on the forums before posting my own question. The one theme I noticed was that people complained about the Bort turn rate. Thing is, I remember reading the same thing about the oddy, but went ahead and bought one for my fed engy toon. I've always loved it. The truth with it is that you have to use it the right way. I have an escort for another toon and its ok, does great dmg, but not as fun as my oddy. I also have a vesta which I like and when I took my new Mogh out for a test spin it felt similar to that. I thought the turn rate thing might turn out the way it did with my oddy but when your spending real money you want to minimize the risk.
So anyways I went with a Mogh, and I have to get use to it, but at the moment I'm not sure I'm going to like it. And yeah, that DDDS console is useless. nice fireworks display but I watch the numbers after launch and it does almost nothing. In the end I suppose someday I will go ahead and also buy a Tac bort.
One other thing I was wondering: In another thread someone had mentioned using 5 DBB on the Mogh instead of the DHCs. I thought that a bit unorthodox, but whatdya think? A little lower dps, but it would widen my arc. Right now I've got 3 neutroniums and an RCS to make SURE I can keep my guns to bear. But maybe with the DBBs I could scrap the RCS and throw on another neutronium or maybe an sif generator. Any thoughts on that?
Also: As far as helpful answers: tggrinc and Kimmym win the prize - thanks guys. (And nice necklace, Kimmym, if that is really you!)
I'll check back here tomorrow. Peace, all.
I here a lot of complaints about the game being too dps centric. Maybe. But I wonder if the real problem is that the PLAYERS are too dps centric and want everything to be a killer. There is honor and fun to be had in being the support.
That said, I find the Bortasqu unbearable. It's slower in turn even than an Oddy, but its inertia rating is much higher so it takes longer to do anything, even just getting up to speed slightly (from zero to 25% or 50% throttle) just to get turn rate out of the gutter. On paper it LOOKS like a KDF version of the oddy, but in practicality it's far worse.
I speak from much experience with cruisers. I also (like you) disagree that flying a cruiser takes no skill. HOWEVER, there is the problem that the Bort REQUIRES you to fly it as a beam cruiser or you lose a ton of pratical effectiveness out of the ship. You have to run all BAs because you'll almost never get DHCs on target.
Those few (in the minority) that claim to do so end up doing it at the expense of any armor, or any healing skills, or any firepower, because they have only slotted skills and specs that help the ship turn better, instead of those that help it FIGHT better.
It's also quite squishy IMO. There's something about it where you just bleed hull points for no reason at times.
Further, I have the fed Avenger. Basically the fed Mogh. Anything my Oddy fed could do, it can do better in the Avenger. It doesn't need to lose console slots on RCS consoles, it doesn't need to waste ENG boff slots on EPTE or A2Damp or whatnot, and it doesn't need to be totally mindlessly focused on boosting turn rate. You can actually put effort into loading it out how you WANT, instead of how you NEED.
That's the thing. The Mogh CAN run exactly as you can load out a Borty, but a Borty can only really be effective in one loadout, with one set of boffs. Anything you can load out on the bort you can load out on the Mogh, and it will just do it better. It has a very good hull, same shields, better weapons slots, good console setup. And IF you simply MUST make it a super tank you CAN make it a super tank because you have more ENG consoles to devote to armor plating, whereas on the Bort you need to save that space for RCS. Or you can slot universals like plasmonic or zero point or tachyokinetic, or whatever can boost your game for you.
DBBs up front can work, yes. Often it's used on ships with less tactical boff setup, so that you can slot a higher skill FAW into a lower rank boff slot (instead of CSV1 you get FAW2, etc). However it works great in the Avenger/Mogh. It has a wider angle than DHC/DC so you don't even need to turn as tightly to face your target. Mount 360 Ap, KCB, and a turret or min on the back slots as well. Perfectly valid setup! I run DBBs on a couple of my toon alternates right now.
I know Patrickngo will make it out that the Bortasqu' is obsolete and worthless and no good for anything but sticking a Fed cruisers build on. I know this to be wrong. I fly a Bortasqu' with DHCs and it works just fine. I have a Fleet Avenger, with a similar setup to my Bortasqu' and it does less damage. I find the Autocannon more useful than the V.A.T.A because it does Disruptor Damage, which means its boosted by your 5 tac consoles and its an energy weapons so it can punch through shields easier.
Having said that I love my Avenger, and would have bought the Mogh had they brought them out at the same time. The Avenger and the Mogh are more alike than the Ody and the Bort, in fact besides the cloak being built in and the console acting slightly differently, they're identical.
And to those referring to the Bortasqu' as not being a traditional Klingon Battlecruiser, look at the Klingon timeline of designs. D5-D7-K'Tinga-Vor'cha-Negh'Var-Bortasqu' They get bigger and more powerful as time goes on, with the D-5 being around 200m long and the Bortasqu' being 1100m long. The Bortasqu' simply shows the evolution of Klingon design. The Mogh and Tor'Kaht are probably just the Klingons replacements for the K'Tingas and Vor'Chas which are beginning to age.
That said, I find the Bortasqu unbearable. It's slower in turn even than an Oddy, but its inertia rating is much higher so it takes longer to do anything, even just getting up to speed slightly (from zero to 25% or 50% throttle) just to get turn rate out of the gutter. On paper it LOOKS like a KDF version of the oddy, but in practicality it's far worse.
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Nice point on that. I hadn't thought about inertia when comparing the experience to an Oddy.
Speaking of firing arcs: does anyone know from where the game begins measuring the arc? For example, does it originate from the very bow, or the saucer center, or whatever. I mean, with most KDF the weapon points are fairly obvious so I guess I'm wondering more about the fed ships.
R.I.P
Ex-CoH players, Please add the chat channel "CoX STO"
Calculations for firing arcs are made from the pivot point, which is generally somewhere near the centroid of the ship. Weapon hardpoints are used for drawing the visual of the weapon firing, but have no real impact on when the weapon fires.
(Which is why the Qin's turn is often complained about: compared to the Fed ships and their massive saucers, the Qin's long, thin neck is extends quite a bit forward of the centroid, making it look like it's sweeping about much more slowly)
Hehe thanks! Yes, that is me, altho nearly a decade ago.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
They both have eight weapons, there is no "extra gun". And I am not finding a 5/3 weapon distribution any better than the old 4/4 for beam weapons.
So, yes, the extra fwd weapon slot does even benefit beam boats. Just a bit. The better benefit is that you're not trapped into using BAs only. You have the option of running DBBs or cannons JUST as effectively as beams with no loss in capability.
.....I just tap full impulse on & off. It's an instant movement boost with no power penalty if you kill it immediately. If you can't use full impulse, there's always engine batteries.
.....This depends on the arena and your target. I use DHC's on my Tac bort in ESTF's. The targets are stationary, slow moving, and/or follow predictable paths.
.....If you're talking about the Breach, or defending the empire missions, it is easier/faster to do them with a beam boat. But they can be done with cannons and turrets.
.....If you're talking about PVP, no iteration of the Bort will benefit you.
.....I run DHC's and I don't use RCS or turn boosted consoles and I rarely use engine batteries. I have one neutronium console, one field gen console, & three healing abilities, Aux2 hull three, TSS one, & HE one. Everything else is aimed at maximizing my DPS.
.....I stay nose on to a target 99% of my time in the zone. The way to do that is to plan your movements so that you can maximize your time on each target and/or keep as many targets as possible within your firing arc. This is an easy thing to do in any ESTF.
.....Since you can't fly around on a whim, you have to plan your movements ahead of time. If you're smart about it, you can still be in position to pull a save out of your pocket if someone else drops the ball.
.....(Again, this does NOT apply to PVP.)
.....I agree. Once your shields are down, it doesn't feel like you're in a huge battle cruiser with 3600 crewmen. It feels more like you're in a raptor and the crew has already bailed on you. But, as noted above, I have only a few healing abilities and only one resist console (which will go away once I have plasmonic leach) but I rarely die. And that usually happens because I completely forget to pay attention to my health.
.....I think the squishiness comes from the broken crew mechanism. I can lose little or no hull health throughout the event and have huge crew losses. Which not only sucks, it drastically affects your hull regen rate.
......I have found a decent way to quickly repair my hull though. I use an auxillary battery (large or small) before I hit my aux2hull and/or my hazard emitters. I can recover huge chunks of hull (30% or more) in a few seconds. And I don't have to take power from another system to do it, so I can maintain my dmg output and shield regen rate.
I just don't see this as the best layout for boffs. it works well with my engineer Capitan only any other profession the layout stinks. id say if your an engineer get the Mogh its awsomesauce any other profession get something else all together.
unless you want to run it like a feddy bear. in which case I ask why are even playing the KDF. and anybody other than a engineer that thinks the Mogh is the best boff layout is willing, ill duel you in my Tor'kaht.
Incase your talking PvE it is still not the best: because any ship in the game is good enough for PvE. So if it stinks in the PvP area of the game but does good in PvE it can not be the best since, A ship that does good in PvP will also do good in PvE.
PvE balance will save this game, if/when/ever it is "balanced"...
And no, PvP layouts won't do equally well in PvE. Or vice versa. You can run PvE setups in PvP and vice versa, but if you focus on one or the other you really have to go all the way and completely commit to doing it one way or the other.
LOL I didn't say PvE would work in PvP. I said any ship in the game will work in PvE.
and that any PvP ship will work in PvE. I never said a PvE would work in PvP. I was afraid some of you feddy bear players would get confused with that and not understand.
Funny how Cryptic only worked on this game in the past 3 years mostly for PvE not PvP. Cryptic made those Romulan Boff Space Traits for PvE while neglected PvP like they always do which in the end made this game ''unbalanced'' and made the Romulan faction as u would put it ''Super OP''.
I will put it for u so u can understand... Romulans Space Traits effects balance in PvP than it could in PvE because in PvP this unbalanced effects players aka real people not NPC's... besides do u see NPC'a going to the forums complaining how fast it got killed by a Romulan player that has 10% more crits and 25% more crit dmg than any Fed or KDF player because of the Romulan Republic Boff Space Traits.
Probably going to get some nice DBBs and see how I like that verses cannons. Then I'll drop my RCS in favor of a 4th neutronium, barring any serious obections.
There were a couple of people going back and forth in this thread about bridge costumes and which were better and all that. I don't want to try and find it for quoting purposes right now, but: one had mentioned that such and such a bridge was bad because it was too big and the BOFF's couldn't communicate efficiently. That's not really factored into the game is it?
IMO heavy nonsence. I playing STO cca two years , i know how complete all elite PvE mission with mirror ship for 50k ec from exchange.
95% PvE missions are destroy X in time limit. So it is no surprise, that nearly all PvE players have simply builds on the greatest amount of damage. Why using any tricks or special consoles? Why new ships? Only one OP thing on romulans is their operative boffs. And they are very expensive. This can be easy balanced with new boffs with space traits for FED and KDF. Ships are compareable with other newer ships. Or do you about something else?
PvP is reason why buying some new stuff and building a new ships. You can not surprise NPC with nothing. A few minutes shooting a stationary object to me does not seem like much fun .
PvP is not driving this game, as you claim. PvP in this game is horribly broken right now. Very few at al bother with it. PvE is the vast majority of the draw this game has. It is also quite broken, but in different ways. It will be fixing these broken aspects of the PvE which will save this game. And I don't mean "make it more money" -- I mean "save it from being dropped by 99% of all the players because it has broken gameplay mechanics."
Along the way, PvP may be resurrected and fixed to play akin to what the idea PvE should, only with players instead of AI. However, it is the PvE which is the crux of the matter, and the focal point of the game.
This game would be 100% dead in the water with no profits if it was ONLY PvP right now, as it stands with the current code in place. It would be scorned more than BSG Online.
R.I.P
It's a game. You SHOULD kill every NPC you meet. In fact, if you die, EVER, due to the NPCs I say it's badly designed... then again this game has proven to be so badly designed on many levels. The game should test you, should test your teamwork, and you should be able to fail missions, but you should NEVER be put into a situation where you die. Not when you have decent equipment, not when you have experience, skill points, and know how to play the game. The fact that it's a game means that you don't really die -- you get multiple lives -- but if you DIE you have lost the mission. In spirit it's not only totally breaking the immersion and the roleplaying, but it also breaks the genre and it is TRIBBLE poor game design.
If you have no recourse, no cover system, no way to mitigate damage or to be smart and avoid it, and you DIE, it's a bad gameplay mechanic. It's even worse if the game totally insta-gibs you repeatedly while giving you NO defense and NO recourse from the nonsenically powered AI.
Yes, PvE, ****IF**** it were properly balanced, will save this game. The uber-broken PvP will not.