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Grinding is work, Games are meant to be fun (closed, necro)
craig76
Member Posts: 775 Arc User
In STO, we gotta grind for fleet marks, dilithium, energy credits, and any other form of ingame currency.
When game devs turn things into a grind, it takes away the enjoyment of playing and it becomes more of a job.
Everything in this game, is set up for large fleets, and thus made relatively easy for them. There is no set up to make things easier for small fleets, and thus, the grinding becomes 10 fold.
I used to do a few foundry missions to help earn EC's, but just realized they have nerfed that too. Have to do the same mission multiple times to earn the same amount of drops to sell for EC's then compared to a few months ago, only had to do a mission once or twice. Now that has become a grind.
I saw Branflakes post somewhere where he said the drops have not changed.
But, i have seen the drop in, well, drops....so to speak.
For example, 1 mission would nearly fill my inventory, then 2nd run i would only get a few drops then they would stop dropping.
Now though, first run, i am lucky to see 2 lines, or 12 items.
Another thing that requires grinding, is expertise, for fleet and personal projects.
I know the game is setup and catered for large fleets, but i have been in 2 or 3 large fleets and found there are trolls in nearly every large fleet. Thus, why i created my own fleet, at least i don't have to put up with a 12 year old child temper tantrum, (figure of speech :cool: )
So, a thought, can the devs make it we can purchase EC's and fleet marks like how we can with dilithium or zen in dil exchange?
I speak for myself when i say i am truely getting tired of grinding everyday.
There is soooooo many other things i would like to see and do in STO but don't get a chance because of this grinding PWE have enforced on us.
If you can't or don't want to make it so we can purchase EC's and FM's, can you PLEASE make it less grinding? Specially for small fleets like mine
If not less grinding, please do something to make things easier and A LOT less repetitive?
As the title of this thread says, games are meant to be fun and enjoyed, not to be grinding away at every little thing and turned into a job and made repetitive. Repetitiveness and grinding is boring.
STO is my favourite game, and i want it to stay that way!
I hope the devs see this and try to make things easier for small fleets like it is larger fleets, I;e, compare 4 or 500 people pitching in on fleet projects compared to a mere 10 people, it is hard.
I would join a large fleet, but, my past experiences tell me there are trolls in large fleets, plus, i have spent A LOT of time in doing my fleet as is T2 base(taken nearly 6 months), T1 mine(taken 3months), embassy T 0. So, ditching mine, is not an option anymore.
When game devs turn things into a grind, it takes away the enjoyment of playing and it becomes more of a job.
Everything in this game, is set up for large fleets, and thus made relatively easy for them. There is no set up to make things easier for small fleets, and thus, the grinding becomes 10 fold.
I used to do a few foundry missions to help earn EC's, but just realized they have nerfed that too. Have to do the same mission multiple times to earn the same amount of drops to sell for EC's then compared to a few months ago, only had to do a mission once or twice. Now that has become a grind.
I saw Branflakes post somewhere where he said the drops have not changed.
But, i have seen the drop in, well, drops....so to speak.
For example, 1 mission would nearly fill my inventory, then 2nd run i would only get a few drops then they would stop dropping.
Now though, first run, i am lucky to see 2 lines, or 12 items.
Another thing that requires grinding, is expertise, for fleet and personal projects.
I know the game is setup and catered for large fleets, but i have been in 2 or 3 large fleets and found there are trolls in nearly every large fleet. Thus, why i created my own fleet, at least i don't have to put up with a 12 year old child temper tantrum, (figure of speech :cool: )
So, a thought, can the devs make it we can purchase EC's and fleet marks like how we can with dilithium or zen in dil exchange?
I speak for myself when i say i am truely getting tired of grinding everyday.
There is soooooo many other things i would like to see and do in STO but don't get a chance because of this grinding PWE have enforced on us.
If you can't or don't want to make it so we can purchase EC's and FM's, can you PLEASE make it less grinding? Specially for small fleets like mine
If not less grinding, please do something to make things easier and A LOT less repetitive?
As the title of this thread says, games are meant to be fun and enjoyed, not to be grinding away at every little thing and turned into a job and made repetitive. Repetitiveness and grinding is boring.
STO is my favourite game, and i want it to stay that way!
I hope the devs see this and try to make things easier for small fleets like it is larger fleets, I;e, compare 4 or 500 people pitching in on fleet projects compared to a mere 10 people, it is hard.
I would join a large fleet, but, my past experiences tell me there are trolls in large fleets, plus, i have spent A LOT of time in doing my fleet as is T2 base(taken nearly 6 months), T1 mine(taken 3months), embassy T 0. So, ditching mine, is not an option anymore.
I believe God created the universe, because he knew we wanted to explore. So, he made us a playground...
Post edited by craig76 on
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This game is not grindy compared to a ton of MMOs. Asian MMOs are the worst, but even a lot of Western MMOs are far grindier than STO.
i didnt know about first bit you mentioned. Be better tho if they allowed us to purchase EC's or FM's in a similar way we purchase zen.
As for the grinding, it is more grinding for me and others out there doing it on there own or in small fleets than what it is for those in large fleets.
Say for example a fleet project costs 100K dilithium, for me, that takes me nearly 2 weeks to do. Where as a fleet with say 400 people in it, it takes them a few minutes. 100K divide 400 people = 250 dilithium each.
Now imagine projects that cost over 1 Million dilithium. It would take me over 4 months, where as a fleet of 400 would take, again a few minutes, 1 Million dill divide 400 = 2500 dill each. Or 2000 dill if the fleet is full.
This is what im getting on about, They should make it that easy for us small fleets. It would'nt be hard for the devs to implement something that makes it easy for us as well as the large fleets.
The dilithium mine, just makes things even easier for the large fleets and doesnt change a thing for us small fleets.... This is what i mean by grinding. It is getting tiresome!
I myself spend hours online, constantly working on Dilithum and Fleet Mark grinding for my starbases and really it's getting tiresome since there is no free time to actually have fun. It's one repetitive cycle of Cryptic keeping us busy with new Fleet holdings and reputation til the next season, rince and repeat. Then there is the grinding in the Winter and Summer events for the store items. It really gets tiresome. That's why I cannot support this game anymore and shifting my funding to Star Citizen.
THIS got tedious fast. We're talking an unimaginably vast volume of space, and yet we are out of things to do so quickly? Simply stunning. I can't believe this is the same team that developed LoR and NewRom.
- Judge Aaron Satie
I think you are missing my point here.
Being, LARGE fleets can do fleet projects A LOT quicker then us smaller fleets. It is a grind for us.
Large fleet that is full to the brim with 500 players can all donate to a project that costs 1 million dilithium in a few minutes.
Me, and a few others on here that have already said the same thing, it is a grind for us to get the 1 million dil to do our project. 500 people to donate 2000 dil each and the project is done.
Me, 125 days at 8k dil a day.
Then i have to grind for EC's, expertise, etc,etc. I looked up on the projects, there is a project that costs 25 million expertise. Again, a fleet of 500 all donate 50,000 and its done. Me, and others out there in the same boat as me, a grind to get that expertise.
What i am trying to get at here, is why make it so damn easy for large fleets and so damn hard for small fleets?
Surely, there is a way to make it AS easy for us small fleets. Like a numerical system, 0 to 10 members, donate 10,000 dil instead of 1 million
11 to 50 members, donate 25000 dil instead of 1million
51 to 100 members donate 100,000 dil instead of 1 million and from 101 to 500 stays as is.
Thus is just one way of making it fair for everyone INSTEAD of favoring the LARGE fleets
Come join my fleet for a week, and see how much i have to grind and dont get time to do anything else ingame, then go back to your LARGE fleet if you are in one, and notice the difference. I know, i was in a large fleet and saw how quick they progress. Thus, they favor LARGE fleets
so you have to play a lot more to fill a fleet project there is no time limit on how long you take to advance your fleet, if you choose to be in a small fleet then you cannot complain that your projects take longer to fill then if you were in a bigger fleet and in my opinion you are the lucky one as you have that much more reason to play then game, theres nothing more frustraiting than earning some fleet marks dil of exp and finding that all the slots have been filled and you cannot donate them.
and as for personal reps i am always a little down when i have reached t5 i got all the gear i wanted, i think all the stuff they have given us to play to fill them are great fun and now i have no real need to play them then i think oh well theres nothing stoping me playing them anyhow even though i dont need the marks.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
im not complaining about "having to play" the game.....well, actually, i kinda am. Cause i dont get to do the things you or others get to do. I'm stuck doing one repetitive thing. Grinding!
Lucky me you say, i say lucky you, you got all t5 personals done. i havent cause i dont get time to do anything else because im always grinding for the fleet projects! And believe me, you dont want to be grinding like i am, cause you dont get time to do anything else OR to enjoy the game. You say you have nothing left to do? There is always something to do, and things you probably havent even thought of doing or dont know about.
Another thing, you try recruiting people in zone chats,etc then have someone IMMEDIATELY post their recruit message up after yours advertising their LARGE T5 fleet.....Who is a new recruit gonna join? The T5 obviously. That's more then half the reason small fleets are small and NOT LARGE.
Where is the harm in evening it out on, for example, a numerical system to CATER for small fleets? Instead of favoring the LARGE ones?
I think its a case of people like you are in a large fleet and dont want us small fleets progressing in our fleets like you guys do yours.
Lastly, i think your comment should be removed as you are calling us small fleeters complainers and basically flaming/trolling us.
Another reason why i wont join a big fleet, because of trolls like you.....been there, done that and seen the trolls in the large fleets. :P :cool:
read my comment and SEE why i call it a grind before calling people complainers :P
What part of it don't you people understand? Or is it you are worried the devs might make a change to CATER for small fleets like they do the large fleets? I bet it's the latter
I can't see why you would be worried tho, because it'd even things out where i do, or any other small fleeter does as much......as little as you large fleets :P
I understand games are a grind, but it is more so for small fleets...
But i guess no one is really reading here other than trolling and flaming, calling people names.
Do you want me to spell it out how it is unfair for small fleets and system favors large fleets?
Lastly, if people were not so arrogant, childish and were not trolls in the large fleets, i wouldve stayed with my previous fleet before going out on my own.....sunken in to those skulls yet? :cool:
how does that work? I thought you had to have T5 provisions to do that, don't know why i thought it, but i did lol...
Nice to know that, thanks
But, still would be nice if PWE/Cryptic made it easier and fairer for small fleets instead of favoring larger ones
im not calling small fleeters complainers and I apologize if you think I was, believe me there are plenty of players in big fleets who complain about grinding all the time, my comment was directed at all players who complain about what I see as playing the game to earn a reward.
this is how I have fun playing the game and at the same time filling my own reps and the fleet projects at the same time.
so heres how it works for me, you do your personal rep with all the fun things like voth or stfs for example as you earn marks for your rep you also earn xp and dil, at the same time you pick up any drops you can and there are plenty, to sell on the exchange or recycle for ec, at the same time you do the odd fun pve like no win colony or Azure Nebula for fleet marks more drops and xp, even better if you can time it when there is a bonus fleet mark event.
once you hit t5 they give a big pay out of dil and you can also continue doing the same events and turn in you extra marks for even more dil.
at the same time you run as many doff missions as you can to earn more ec and dil and xp a good one to watch for is the one that pays out contraband collect them till you have 5 and turn them in to security for more dil, other ones to look out for are the ones that pay out shields and weapons to sell or recycle and bridge officers that can be sold on the exchange.
but the best ones are the ones that pay out crafting materials, they will make you a small fortune on the exchange.
that's how I have lots of fun and am one of the top donators in my fleet and never complain about grinding as to me its not a grind its a joy.
the problem with making it easier for small fleets to level up is they could get to t5 much quicker but then have loads of people join and reap the rewards.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
No problem, water under the bridge, thought you were referring to me or small fleets in general lol:rolleyes:
But, as for your suggestion on people joining and reaping the rewards, thats where the numerical system comes into play. The more people there are, the more you gotta donate to projects til it gets to the point of where the system is now, i;e, all fleets donate the same amount. Also, i can't really see how they could reap the rewards, cause as it is now, i could go join any fleet and get what i want providing i got the FM's, provisions,dil, etc, and leave again. So, i don't think there would be any difference in that aspect, not unless i cant foresee it yet lol.
you miss the point completely.
scenario (and im not referring to your fleet here)
a large network of say 200 players all wanting to make a new fleet.
10 of the network make a small player fleet and reap all the benefits you suggest that a small fleet should get, the other 190 players quietly sit in the wings in the mean time channelling goodies like dil ec and other useful stuff via whatever means available (and there are plenty of ways to channel stuff like this but too complicated to go into here)
when a large infusion of fleet marks is needed 2 or 3 members who have no stuff to donate drop out of the fleet and are replaced by other players in the network who have racked up loads of fleet marks but had no fleet to donate them to, providing they keep their membership at 10 or under say they will not loose their small fleet status.
the fleet very quickly hits t5 in all holdings due to the small fleet benefits and donations to the fleet from no more then 10 fleet members at any one time and 190 non or ex fleet members.
once the fleet is at t5 in all holdings the other 190 players join or re-join the fleet and enjoy all the benefits a large fleet has to offer and there will be no problem from loosing their small fleet status as their fleet will already be at t5 anyway and they (cryptic) cant take that away from them.
probably a bit far fetched but not impossible to achieve and if I can think of it you can bet your life others will think of it to.
the trouble with benefits like irl there are people out there who will take advantage in some way as you will find when you do reach t5 and everyone and his uncle suddenly wants to join your fleet and reap your rewards without having contributed anything to your fleets t5 status.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.
Some strange people there want to hit Battle Rank 100 and then quit, just for the XBox-like sense of achievement I guess.
Grind will be there even if we remove grind.
At max level in any MMO your options tend to be limited, run dungeon/stf, run raid, raise faction to max, do dailies, run trough content of new big patch, do new dungeons/stfs, run new raids, raise new factions to max, do new dailies, and so on, and so forth.
It might seem to you like STO is worse then other MMO's, it's really not.
As for the demanding of scaling fleet project resources to fleet sizes, it's not gonna happen, no MMO does that, in EVE small corps and alliances can forget building massive Titans it's just isn't their budget range, in WoW you get a bunch of bonuses trough guild levels, there is no difference in XP earning for big guilds or small guilds, thus big guilds get their bonuses sooner then smaller ones.
That is is just how it it, there is an advantage in numbers, that is even the way in real life, if 10 people complain about a feature it's not gonna get much attention, if nearly everyone complains about it goes to the top of the list because then it's a major issue.
And as bobbydazlers mentioned, scaling is highly open to abuse, minimum amount of fleet members required, lowest input for projects, but feeding from all the other members who wait till T5 in an alt guild that doesn't do fleet holdings, once the small T5 fleet is complete all the members from the alt guild move to the main one, everyone has cheap T5 access.
Fact of real life 21st century humans, we are greedy TRIBBLE who want the most rewards for the least effort.
Now I know that it's your little fleet, and you want it to succeed, but that's the risk of running a little fleet, it slows you down, just as in real life some tasks just go faster with more people helping you, fleets are community based, and you're rewarded for having a larger community, it's one of the few things in STO that really says, "you need friends to help you with this"
In fact it's STO's only real way to reward having a guild, since there's a no 20-40 man raids that require a lot of coordination, a lot of people, and some backup should someone not make the weekly raid.
You keep saying the Grind that PWE has forced on you for having a fleet, but that's just not true, investing in the fleet is an option, not a requirement.
Fleet gear, and fleet holding really don't give that much of a boost as people think, yes it's the best gear out there, but most of my gear is XI or XII, a mix of greens, blue's and purples, and I haven't bought a single piece of fleet gear yet, my little Defiant Retrofit still rocks in STF's.
I myself am in a small Fleet, we just got the T4 Starbase upgrade project started, we have a couple of guys in the fleet who, like you, are willing to grind those fleetmarks and dilithium to keep the big projects going, we've also got one or two who are willing to spend a little bit of real world cash to buy Dilithium on the Dilithium Exchange to to fund those big projects from time to time.
I am neither those, and that's also the rule within our fleet, you do what you like, you spend what you can miss, and most important of all, enjoy the game the way you want to, want to help the fleet, by all means please do so, want to focus on reps, go ahead, run back to back stfs, level all the alts you can, play only foundry missions, it's all up to what you find important.
We also have Klingon sister fleet, but it's ground pretty much to a halt because most of us play Federation, and Federation only, including the guys who put in the extra effort in the Fed fleet, yes it irks me sometimes to see all the stalled projects, but it will get there eventually, it just will take much longer then the Fed fleet, so what?
PWE or Cryptic didn't force you into the fleet grind, they just gave you an option to advance trough the fleet system, you are the one that forced it upon yourself to only focus on that and ignore all the other things, to make it the sole reason for playing this game, and honestly, that's dumb, cause this game, as you said yourself, has much more to offer, the only one keeping you from experiencing it is you,
Why? I don't know, I can't look inside your head, but maybe you should rethink your priorities in playing the game, there is nothing wrong with a small fleet that advances slowly, there is nothing wrong with not focusing on the fleet projects for a day, or a week, you're making far to big a deal of it.
It simply isnt affordable nor even possible to develop content at the pace people can tear through it. Old Republic is a fine example of that with a huge budget and high production values (yes yes I'm expecting argument there but I stand by it), yet people tore through the class stories and insatiably demanded more, more more and quickly.
And they wonder why bottlenecks like "grinds" exist.
In regards to your small fleet, I'm also in one and we're lucky to have a fleet leader that spends a lot of RL money on Dilithium and another leader who loves to grind Defera for marks. We also actively buy Fleet Marks (Flarks) from players.
I tend to get really bored with mark and Dil grinding, but I still want to contribute to my fleet so i dedicate some of my time to recruiting new players to the fleet. You can chat with your new members, help them with stuff etc. It's a nice break from the grind.
Seems like a logical solution. One or two days a week, I'll broadcast our recruitment message around all the sectors. It may be annoying to some, but it works. On the Fed base we picked up around a dozen new players. On the KDF base we picked up 6-7 new players. Suprisingly, they've all stuck around and a few of them are strong contributors.
ok. so impose a time limit on new members then. say a month, that would deter them then. simple. There is a way around things like that.
if you actually READ my comments, you would know my reasons :P
Sorry but you are wrong. There are MMO's that do work on size of fleets or guilds or whatever. Take SHK for example, they started off with 10 villages, then they increased it to 15, but those last 5 villages will cost 11,12,13,14 and 15 million honor each to gain. But you were not rextricted to having to get them. A lot of people stayed with 10 villages because they were fighters and villages were always at risk. And to fight another person you would need that honor.
There is a way to make this AS easy for small fleets as it is large fleets, and there is a way to stop the leechers by imposing a time restraint on new members on how long before they can donate.
But i get it, some of you people would get your nose out of joint if they did actually make things easier for us small fleets and less grinding for us. You large fleets have it easy. About an hour of grinding each of 500 people, and you all done the project. Us small fleets months of grinding at hardcore pace, day in day out. What part of that doesnt it sink in to those thick skulls? Im talking plain english:rolleyes:
Also IF YOU READ MY COMMENTS instead of trolling, if you can read, obviously you cant because if you could, YOU WOULD KNOW MY REASONING BEHIND WHY I DONT LIKE LARGE FLEETS!
Furthermore, again, are you people too lazy to read or something? cant read but can leave comments and troll without knowing whats being said. IMPOSE RESTRICTIONS on new members for a week, a month or whatever and then that would STOP THE ABUSERS. duh
I reckon you people just don't want us advancing like large fleets.
The only ones that will care and fuss about restraints on new members joining a fleet to donate are the abusers. Leave the purchase from fleet provisions as is, just put time restraints on new members joining so they cant donate straight away.
Then, yes, scaling would work. The only ones that fuss about this are those that dont want us to progress or simply trolling. As you said, im not in your head to know you are a troll.
They imposed restrictions on ranking a member up to admiral in fleet by 2 weeks if a person first joins a fleet. I know this because i put my new toons into the fleet then ranked them up.
So, they can do a similar thing with scaling and catering for small fleets by putting a time restriction on newly joined members that can donate for example 2 weeks. This would stop any wannabe abusers, but still cater for legitimate small fleets.
There is a way to stop abusers dead in their tracks. Whyis this such an issue with some of you, i dont know. To me, you're just trolling or don't want us to progress or hoping we will ditch our fleet to join your large fleet.
Me, ain't gonna happen. I have spent RL money on my fleet and A TON of hours, and im sick and tired of the trolls in the large fleets. So, i will NEVER join another large fleet again.
Large fleets = over rated
small fleets = under rated
In the case of MMO grinders, the change is from "completing the mission" to "completing the mission as quickly as possible to obtain the maximum possible reward". And in STO's specific case, half the challenge is in the preparation - tricking out your ships and BOffs to give you the greatest chance of achieving that goal.
My Foundry missions | My STO Wiki page | My Twitter home page
no problem so the other players cant join all at once just a few every month so big deal they will all join eventually.
even if you said lock the fleet size of the fleet at 10 so it will always be a small fleet no problem there just have members drop out so new ones can join as an when the need arises, at the end of the day there are many ways to make a large fleet look like a small fleet.
also you will often find that big fleets are often not as big as you think, so there is a fleet with 200 members, take out all the alts now theres only 20 members take out all the players who donate very little just the bare minimum and this big fleet isn't looking so big after all why should your small fleet benefit when theirs will not.
also it could be argued that you are the ones who chose to be in a small fleet so you must live with the consequences of your choice.
I am in a what would look like an average sized fleet but that is like as I described above mostly made of a small group who keep the fleet going lots of alts and a few members who donate a bare minimum amount but in fairness perhaps don't have time to play as often as the core group.
I have donated a great deal to my fleet though I have taken very little, I did not join a fleet for what I could get out of it and the size of the fleet or how fast we level up is of no real importance to me, I am in a fleet purely for the social benefits, I can quickly look at the fleet roster and see who's on have a bit of a chat and perhaps do a mission or two together.
but at the end of the day we could argue the pros and cons of small fleet large fleet till the cows come home.
and I don't really mind if they did introduce some kind of small fleet benefit system and its of no matter to me if they dont.
but at the end of the day for many reasons some of what maybe I have said, some of what others have said, and maybe some that we cant even know I cant see it ever happening.
When I think about everything we've been through together,
maybe it's not the destination that matters, maybe it's the journey,
and if that journey takes a little longer,
so we can do something we all believe in,
I can't think of any place I'd rather be or any people I'd rather be with.