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Lead designer Al Rivera to consider "nightmare" level STF

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  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    If we get npcs with abilities rather than more damage sponges, I'll back it, otherwise to hell with it.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • jetwtfjetwtf Member Posts: 1,207
    edited November 2013
    Here is what they would implement: "Tactical Cube deals 115310 (196255) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Torpedo." Tactical cube does that every other torp, tachyon beam strips shields twice as fast and ignores power insulators. Tac cubes have 10 million HP and 1 millon HP shields. That is what Cryptic considers a challenge, tons of HP and 1 shot kills like the above copy/paste above from the last ESTF I did today.
    Join Date: Nobody cares.
    "I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
  • edited November 2013
    This content has been removed.
  • bitemepwebitemepwe Member Posts: 6,760 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    dahminus wrote: »
    Nightmare mode happens, there better be a god damn gold plated carrot on a stick

    with emerald leaves, a silken thread tied to the rarest of woods..
    Leonard Nimoy, Spock.....:(

    R.I.P
  • fletchervansefletchervanse Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Making it only avaible from private action window would probably limit the amount of "bad" players or at least force them to read team's tactics.
  • thegalaxy31thegalaxy31 Member Posts: 1,211 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Imagine Infected: The Conduit (Nightmare)... nanite CUBES
    I would love to visit this star in-game...or maybe this one!
    Won't SOMEONE please think of the CHILDREN?!
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    bitemepwe wrote: »
    with emerald leaves, a silken thread tied to the rarest of woods..

    At first I thought...wtf are you talking about roach? Then I laughed good and hard. Thanks man
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • snoggymack22snoggymack22 Member Posts: 7,084 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    timelord79 wrote: »
    Nightmare mode STF: Make it a monster play PvP version where actual players fly the enemy ships.
    Their objective: to complete the Borg objectives any way possible and foil the players in preventing them.

    That's a fun idea.

    Regarding the Original Post ... Nightmare mode already existed. Back before they were a reputation grind.

    So just have Al call up his ole buddy Gozer (another Dev the OP would love cause Gozer also used to tell it like it is and not care too much about offending customers) ... anyways, call up Gozer and get him to toss some notes on how he designed these things in the beginning, and VIOLA, return to nightmare mode!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • captainednacaptainedna Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    How about less power creep ?
  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    just force players to do the ground part again :D...seemed like a nightmare back then with the old combat system in play, would still be a nightmare with the new one.

    did i mention that i find the ground combat extremely dull?
    Go pro or go home
  • sophus84atsophus84at Member Posts: 404 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    i would love a harder difficult level. but only if its not made harder like the last crystal even with spamming it with ships.. there must be a really adding maybe another objective. (for cure space the carrier is a joke no matter what level you are playing)
    the missions should last longer, maybe a full new objective string that isn't there at all in the other difficult levels.

    nightmare mode sounds good. but must be thought through. normally its made harder with either a lot of insta kill weapons added. or ship spamming. both is not the correct way.

    and the rewards must be really fitting, 1480 dil for example,and at least 90 marks without the bonus hour.


    ideas for making the borg space stfs harder:

    CSE: Add two more Cubes with ship yards. while only adding 2 or 3 minutes to the timer. and make the assimilated carrier a real threat. maybe two of them

    KSE: get rid of the safe distance of the gates (currently you can sit at 9,5 km and just shot it without being hit at all) probes can fire back, and spheres are also passing with each probe run. the cubs that are triggered need to be tac cubes each.

    ISE: again tac cubes over transformers, no safe distance at gate, and when triggering the nanite spheres send them something with that can shot back. the tac cube at and needs to move more, to divert teams. needs FAW 3 with plasma beams to defend its self against rom torps and carrier pets.
    "Mei Borg is net deppat".....

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • sunfranckssunfrancks Member Posts: 3,925 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    They should just bring back the old stf's. No need to do a lazy copy paste, hike up the hitpoints and increase mob dps.

    The old stf's required skill, a good team and no public queue bs. Afkers never really existed back then either....
    Fed: Eng Lib Borg (Five) Tac Andorian (Shen) Sci Alien/Klingon (Maelrock) KDF:Tac Romulan KDF (Sasha) Tac Klingon (K'dopis)
    Founder, member and former leader to Pride Of The Federation Fleet.
    What I feel after I hear about every decision made since Andre "Mobile Games Generalisimo" Emerson arrived...
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  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    sophus84at wrote: »
    ideas for making the borg space stfs harder:

    CSE: Add two more Cubes with ship yards. while only adding 2 or 3 minutes to the timer. and make the assimilated carrier a real threat. maybe two of them

    KSE: get rid of the safe distance of the gates (currently you can sit at 9,5 km and just shot it without being hit at all) probes can fire back, and spheres are also passing with each probe run. the cubs that are triggered need to be tac cubes each.

    ISE: again tac cubes over transformers, no safe distance at gate, and when triggering the nanite spheres send them something with that can shot back. the tac cube at and needs to move more, to divert teams. needs FAW 3 with plasma beams to defend its self against rom torps and carrier pets.

    DPS race is boring and easy...

    Next!
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2013
    You want real nightmare then here it is.


    1. Borg diamond science vessel with sbn, sensor scramble syphon drones and gw
    2. All Borg ships use tac abilities and have a PvP like builds. Dual tac teams continuously cycled, Epts * 2, alpha strike ability and enhanced Borg tractor beam
    3. Borg use beefed up fleet shields that adapt to resist the damage from the highest DPS players
    4. Borg have other debuffs that clear defensive resistance on ships
    5. Borg tractor beam hold is buffed and so is damage

    Prepare for all the elite players to coming running to the forum and crying about how Borg are OP.

    Actually, I now completely support this idea. Borg need to be OPand spank the bottoms of all the wallet warriors here. Make itso Cryptic. :D
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    macronius wrote: »
    You want real nightmare then here it is.


    1. Borg diamond science vessel with sbn, sensor scramble syphon drones and gw
    2. All Borg ships use tac abilities and have a PvP like builds. Dual tac teams continuously cycled, Epts * 2, alpha strike ability and enhanced Borg tractor beam
    3. Borg use beefed up fleet shields that adapt to resist the damage from the highest DPS players
    4. Borg have other debuffs that clear defensive resistance on ships
    5. Borg tractor beam hold is buffed and so is damage

    Prepare for all the elite players to coming running to the forum and crying about how Borg are OP.

    Actually, I now completely support this idea. Borg need to be OPand spank the bottoms of all the wallet warriors here. Make itso Cryptic. :D

    You have no idea how much I would enjoy something like this tbh. Figuring out the puzzle is one of the main attractions for me. Even if we were to wipe out 20 times, that 21st time we succeeded would be all the reward id need.

    I so want the borg to kick my TRIBBLE, and not just with megatorp hax.
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  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2013
    You have no idea how much I would enjoy something like this tbh. Figuring out the puzzle is one of the main attractions for me. Even if we were to wipe out 20 times, that 21st time we succeeded would be all the reward id need.

    I so want the borg to kick my TRIBBLE, and not just with megatorp hax.

    I am 100% with you even if I can never do do this content lacking a good premade. We need some serious challenges in this game that don't involve millions of hp or invisi torpedoes of doom.
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    macronius wrote: »
    You want real nightmare then here it is.


    1. Borg diamond science vessel with sbn, sensor scramble syphon drones and gw
    2. All Borg ships use tac abilities and have a PvP like builds. Dual tac teams continuously cycled, Epts * 2, alpha strike ability and enhanced Borg tractor beam
    3. Borg use beefed up fleet shields that adapt to resist the damage from the highest DPS players
    4. Borg have other debuffs that clear defensive resistance on ships
    5. Borg tractor beam hold is buffed and so is damage

    Prepare for all the elite players to coming running to the forum and crying about how Borg are OP.

    Actually, I now completely support this idea. Borg need to be OPand spank the bottoms of all the wallet warriors here. Make itso Cryptic. :D

    This is interesting, though I wouldn't want them to have high end pvp builds like the ones used in premade teams, those without their supporting ships are far too easy to rip up.
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • vulcancouriervulcancourier Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    How about a different type of "nightmare" stf?

    Type: Space and Ground

    Duration: 2hrs maximum (1-hour for space and 1-hour for ground with locks)

    Attempts: 1 per toon and only 1-reward per account. In other words, each toon has one attempt to complete it, but the player can attempt it as many times as the player has a level-50 toon. So, 10-level 50 toons? 10 attempts. Only one can win the reward for the account.

    Reward: bind to account

    Rewards: 1-ship boff station upgrade to either the next rank up for ensign, lieutenant or lieutenant commander; or 1-ship boff station upgrade to universal (any rank); an accolade, trophy, unique player/boff costume, 1 costume slot, 1 new trait slot and one profession specific universal kit.

    Nightmare: MK XII common ship and personnel equipment only. No fleet, lobi, reputation or drops allowed. This includes consumables, kits and pets.

    At the start of the STF, the players can select the ship of their choice based upon what they have in their shipyard but no unique consoles. A store is available to load-out the ship and team for zero credit cost. All damage types, kits and generic consumables available.

    This option, plus an STF event locker for personnel equipment, is provided given the pain to strip a ship and some players may not have bank space.

    Or, keep your ship and use the locker as well.

    Additional nightmare: no preview or player testing on tribble. Like an episode, the player has no idea what is going to be encountered.

    Event calendar: 4-weeks around STO's anniversary. So the nightmare happens only once per year.

    This will pressure test different things such as teamwork, ability to adapt to the unknown and how well a player knows how to play its profession.

    Exceptions: if the STF bugs, then the player can try it again with that toon with a new clock. So if Space bugs, the team can restart Space with a new clock. If Space is completed and Ground bugs, then the team can restart the STF from the Ground section.
  • adamkafeiadamkafei Member Posts: 6,539 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    /Snip

    So to clarify, if I have any rep consoles or other universals and fleet gear I will be unable to use my existing ship/character build?
    ZiOfChe.png?1
  • vulcancouriervulcancourier Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    adamkafei wrote: »
    So to clarify, if I have any rep consoles or other universals and fleet gear I will be unable to use my existing ship/character build?

    Correct, a nightmare scenario where all a player has is common equipment, their skills, expertise and ability to work as a team in an unknown situation.

    A figurative chess match. The STF player base Kasparov's vs Cryptic's version of Deep Blue.
  • gatsie7gatsie7 Member Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    sunfrancks wrote: »
    They should just bring back the old stf's. No need to do a lazy copy paste, hike up the hitpoints and increase mob dps.

    The old stf's required skill, a good team and no public queue bs. Afkers never really existed back then either....

    Back before free to play the stf's were Long and a challenge, The space and ground were in fact part of the same mission and in some cases could take hours to complete. These missions could only be done once every day.

    There was never really ant explination on why they were changed but those of us that could do them believe that it was to dumb them down so everyone could do them in a reasonable time, However we (my friends and I ) would love to see these return(even if it was for a short time).

    The STF's back then took team work and had no need to rush thru them to get an optional, it took skill not just dps.

    So I say Bug the devs to bring them back until they listen. Then watch the forums blow-up from those that can not do them...HAHA
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,009 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    "Nightmare mode" in STO means double Borg's hitpoints. Tadaa, new game mode!
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
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  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,205 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    angrytarg wrote: »
    "Nightmare mode" in STO means double Borg's hitpoints. Tadaa, new game mode!

    People will complain that even that is "too hard" and requires "too much time and dedication" and will want it easy for the masses. Then the Borg will be nerfed to 1/4 the strength of the original "normal" strength and there will be friendly NPCs to do all the work for you while you faceroll something else, ALT+TAB'ed on another game.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • amalefactoramalefactor Member Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    How about a different type of "nightmare" stf?

    Type: Space and Ground

    Duration: 2hrs maximum (1-hour for space and 1-hour for ground with locks)

    Attempts: 1 per toon and only 1-reward per account. In other words, each toon has one attempt to complete it, but the player can attempt it as many times as the player has a level-50 toon. So, 10-level 50 toons? 10 attempts. Only one can win the reward for the account.

    Reward: bind to account

    Rewards: 1-ship boff station upgrade to either the next rank up for ensign, lieutenant or lieutenant commander; or 1-ship boff station upgrade to universal (any rank); an accolade, trophy, unique player/boff costume, 1 costume slot, 1 new trait slot and one profession specific universal kit.

    Nightmare: MK XII common ship and personnel equipment only. No fleet, lobi, reputation or drops allowed. This includes consumables, kits and pets.

    At the start of the STF, the players can select the ship of their choice based upon what they have in their shipyard but no unique consoles. A store is available to load-out the ship and team for zero credit cost. All damage types, kits and generic consumables available.

    This option, plus an STF event locker for personnel equipment, is provided given the pain to strip a ship and some players may not have bank space.

    Or, keep your ship and use the locker as well.

    Additional nightmare: no preview or player testing on tribble. Like an episode, the player has no idea what is going to be encountered.

    Event calendar: 4-weeks around STO's anniversary. So the nightmare happens only once per year.

    This will pressure test different things such as teamwork, ability to adapt to the unknown and how well a player knows how to play its profession.

    Exceptions: if the STF bugs, then the player can try it again with that toon with a new clock. So if Space bugs, the team can restart Space with a new clock. If Space is completed and Ground bugs, then the team can restart the STF from the Ground section.
    I know how much the self-styled "hardcore" would love this, but this is a tremendous waste of time and resources for several reasons.

    Once per year content? Of that elaborate level of presupposed balance and tuning that would be hard enough to fit your arbitrary expectations? With an artificially induced "specialness" that makes it so a tremendous amount of the playerbase might not even get a chance to play it, let alone beat it? Terrible idea.

    There's a finite amount of developer time, and wasting it on something that even the minority that are ready and able to do it, and only once a year, is basically throwing money into a bowl and flushing.

    That's the real reason why so-called "casual gamers" are taking over the industry: people like you are demanding a lot and want it artificially special and just for them and want more and more of it at an exponential growth level.

    Enjoy the casual age. You deserve it.
  • azurianstarazurianstar Member Posts: 6,985 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    angrytarg wrote: »
    "Nightmare mode" in STO means double Borg's hitpoints. Tadaa, new game mode!

    Don't forget, more 1-shot kills as well. :P
  • vulcancouriervulcancourier Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    I know how much the self-styled "hardcore" would love this, but this is a tremendous waste of time and resources for several reasons.

    Once per year content? Of that elaborate level of presupposed balance and tuning that would be hard enough to fit your arbitrary expectations? With an artificially induced "specialness" that makes it so a tremendous amount of the playerbase might not even get a chance to play it, let alone beat it? Terrible idea.

    There's a finite amount of developer time, and wasting it on something that even the minority that are ready and able to do it, and only once a year, is basically throwing money into a bowl and flushing.

    That's the real reason why so-called "casual gamers" are taking over the industry: people like you are demanding a lot and want it artificially special and just for them and want more and more of it at an exponential growth level.

    Enjoy the casual age. You deserve it.


    Well, the "nightmare" mode would be once per year. The opportunity to potentially have a ship with all universal slots at commander level would be an interesting long-term reward for effort.

    The STF would also be available to everyone else after the "nightmare" window expires, replacing the current stf grind of the moment.

    In gaming, the so called "people like you are demanding" vs the "casual gamers" can be viewed figuratively like the automobile industry.

    All are drivers, and the "casual drivers" want their mainstream vehicle with the automation that is often the benefit of the investment into outlier driver markets: the professional and street racers, supercar drivers and others, who press the automotive envelope.

    There are other industry examples where the outliers, or "demanding", pressure innovation that often finds its way to the "casual".

    So, I disagree, an investment into the outlier playerbase can have positive impact for the "casual gamer".
  • macroniusmacronius Member Posts: 2,526
    edited November 2013
    Well, the "nightmare" mode would be once per year. The opportunity to potentially have a ship with all universal slots at commander level would be an interesting long-term reward for effort.

    You are joking right? *Picard facepalm*
    "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

    - Judge Aaron Satie
  • iconiansiconians Member Posts: 6,987 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    Correct, a nightmare scenario where all a player has is common equipment, their skills, expertise and ability to work as a team in an unknown situation.

    A figurative chess match. The STF player base Kasparov's vs Cryptic's version of Deep Blue.

    I'm sorry, but your analogy sucks. Garry Kasparov won against Deep Blue the first time. He won on a score from 4-2 (2 draws). The second game was more or less IBM cheating, but it still only won from 3.5-2.5 (3 draws). Hardly a grand-slam victory.

    The second Kasparov vs. Deep Blue chess match was a publicity stunt and nothing more. The deck was stacked against Kasparov from the get-go.

    He was never allowed to see the machine's log files printed out, even though IBM posted them on the internet later.

    Furthermore, he's accused IBM of pulling "The Turk" in the middle of the chess games where certain moves made by the machine, Kasparov attributed to creativity and human intelligence -- not the 'brute force' calculations Deep Blue did.

    Deep Blue had the advantage of being able to be reprogrammed by a team of programmers and chess masters in between every game -- otherwise Kasparov would have dominated it.

    In the end, the score between Deep Blue and Kasparov was 1-1. He won a game. Lost a game. IBM refused a rematch and sold Deep Blue off within a year. So they will remain forever tied.

    If you really want to use the Deep Blue vs. Kasparov analogy then you have to consider a few things:

    1. Players who know how to do STFs and are experienced with them heavily will outsmart and outperform any AI Cryptic comes up with. Cryptic can not 'shore up' the STF's defenses between every game. In the way IBM did.

    2. Equipment is 10% of the game. Tactics and strategy is 90% of the game. A good STF run will not be dependant on fancy expensive gear to begin with, making your ruleset obsolete before it even starts.

    3. There will be no 'unknown' situation. Once a game is beaten through trial and error - it stops being unknown (at least to those players). Deep Blue was not intuitive. It had no imagination. It was not adaptive. It brute forced its way through millions of moves to find the optimal solution.

    It's like a calculator. It performs arithmetic flawlessly, but a calculator has no deeper insight to how arithmetic works. It has no intuition, it is not adaptive. Calculators can't teach students. They are a tool, nothing more.
    ExtxpTp.jpg
  • vulcancouriervulcancourier Member Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited November 2013
    macronius wrote: »
    You are joking right? *Picard facepalm*
    iconians wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but your analogy sucks.

    <snip>

    In the end, the score between Deep Blue and Kasparov was 1-1. He won a game. Lost a game. IBM refused a rematch and sold Deep Blue off within a year. So they will remain forever tied.

    If you really want to use the Deep Blue vs. Kasparov analogy then you have to consider a few things:

    1. Players who know how to do STFs and are experienced with them heavily will outsmart and outperform any AI Cryptic comes up with. Cryptic can not 'shore up' the STF's defenses between every game. In the way IBM did.

    2. Equipment is 10% of the game. Tactics and strategy is 90% of the game. A good STF run will not be dependant on fancy expensive gear to begin with, making your ruleset obsolete before it even starts.

    3. There will be no 'unknown' situation. Once a game is beaten through trial and error - it stops being unknown (at least to those players). Deep Blue was not intuitive. It had no imagination. It was not adaptive. It brute forced its way through millions of moves to find the optimal solution.

    It's like a calculator. It performs arithmetic flawlessly, but a calculator has no deeper insight to how arithmetic works. It has no intuition, it is not adaptive. Calculators can't teach students. They are a tool, nothing more.


    All fine and well.

    The idea is a picard, riker double /facepalm and the analogy "sucks".

    So given this was an alternative definition of "nightmare" mode, what are the other definitions that introduce a "nightmare" scenario?

    The other /facepalm definitions of 'more dps required, it's a race"; develop/use a new AI and lather, rinse, repeat points written above; a laundry list of Cryptic "don't do x,y,z" but make it better becomes a "what to do" for Cryptic that challenges the player base.

    Given there is no consensus of what constitutes a "nightmare" scenario, what would be a compelling definition for this game?
  • newromulan1newromulan1 Member Posts: 2,229
    edited November 2013
    What needs to happen is the npcs are given player boff powers like tac team/rsp/eng team/emerg power to shields.
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