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Lead designer Al Rivera to consider "nightmare" level STF
newromulan1
Member Posts: 2,229
There was a stok'd radio episode today with Al 'captain Gecko' Rivera that was quite interesting.
First let me say that Al is my favorite Dev - a lot of people don't seem to like him for some reason but I love the fact that he just says what he wants or plans and does not try to bull**** people like a politician telling you just what you want to hear. So in that regard I always love listening to him over many others.
Several people asked for a 3rd tier difficulty level for existing Borg stfs - and he said that he will look into making a 'nightmare' difficulty level - maybe ultra elite would sound better.
So what do people think? Has the elite stfs - hive excluded - gotten so easy that you want a 'nightmare' difficulty setting?
Obviously people would need to team up with fleetmates or through a elite channel as pugging it would be a frustrating failure in most cases.
P.S. AL - I still think you have done a great job with STO and season 8, however, you are going to have to make some changes to the New zone in my opinion - wink - as you say we all have one - so here is mine:
There needs to be an easier more direct way to get to the contested zone - maybe a direct transwarp? It's kind of clunky going through the allied zone if you just want to get to the ground battlezone. I know there is a shuttle when you first warp in and you can asked an Npc to beam you there from the allied command center-but how do you get back? It all seems a little difficult.
The zone cap really should be raised to say 25 as there are too many people just standing around doing nothing - mostly I find this happening after a zone has been captured some players go for a break - the zone rests and some new people come in to fill those that have left or hopped zones and you are often down to just 3 or 4 players trying in vain to capture a zone.
And last - in the 2 city sections there needs to be many more ramps connecting the different areas - the amount of running around is double that of the park zone which is more connected. I don't know if it possible but if a section is captured players should be allowed a site to site beam back to the central hub. Pretty much anything that cuts down on the running around would be a big help.
P.p.s. Please keep this thread civil and polite - constructive criticism/feedback is always good - but flaming or complaints please make your own thread.
First let me say that Al is my favorite Dev - a lot of people don't seem to like him for some reason but I love the fact that he just says what he wants or plans and does not try to bull**** people like a politician telling you just what you want to hear. So in that regard I always love listening to him over many others.
Several people asked for a 3rd tier difficulty level for existing Borg stfs - and he said that he will look into making a 'nightmare' difficulty level - maybe ultra elite would sound better.
So what do people think? Has the elite stfs - hive excluded - gotten so easy that you want a 'nightmare' difficulty setting?
Obviously people would need to team up with fleetmates or through a elite channel as pugging it would be a frustrating failure in most cases.
P.S. AL - I still think you have done a great job with STO and season 8, however, you are going to have to make some changes to the New zone in my opinion - wink - as you say we all have one - so here is mine:
There needs to be an easier more direct way to get to the contested zone - maybe a direct transwarp? It's kind of clunky going through the allied zone if you just want to get to the ground battlezone. I know there is a shuttle when you first warp in and you can asked an Npc to beam you there from the allied command center-but how do you get back? It all seems a little difficult.
The zone cap really should be raised to say 25 as there are too many people just standing around doing nothing - mostly I find this happening after a zone has been captured some players go for a break - the zone rests and some new people come in to fill those that have left or hopped zones and you are often down to just 3 or 4 players trying in vain to capture a zone.
And last - in the 2 city sections there needs to be many more ramps connecting the different areas - the amount of running around is double that of the park zone which is more connected. I don't know if it possible but if a section is captured players should be allowed a site to site beam back to the central hub. Pretty much anything that cuts down on the running around would be a big help.
P.p.s. Please keep this thread civil and polite - constructive criticism/feedback is always good - but flaming or complaints please make your own thread.
Post edited by newromulan1 on
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I think SWTOR did something like this with their operation (raids) instances. It was when their first expac came out Rise of the Hutt Cartel. I didnt pay much attention to it since i dont raid anymore but i *think* the concept wasnt too well recieved in the SWTOR raid community. One of the things brought up is that they were afraid they would be dealing with more or less the same mechanics overall, with maybe 1 new one added in and an increase in health.
It was the difference between adding one more level of difficulty to instances that already have 2 levels of difficulties that you had been running for the past 2-3 years VS adding in completely new instances, with new mechanics, and 2-3 levels of difficulty. It may have been a combination of other factors too, like their raids may have been a bit more buggy. Also i know a lot of their 4 man instances that were level 50 were simply retuned to level 55 when the level cap was raised which didnt make a lot of people happy. I dont know for sure if the same thing was done to their raids when the level cap was increased.
I even think this might be a little similar to what WoW did with its Pandaria 5 man dungeons on release. The expacs Cataclysm, Wrath, and Burning Crusade all had a ton of 5 mans on initial expac release as well as a few more released through the expac. BUT with Pandaria 6 of the 5 man instances were brand new, and 3 were retuned instances from level 60. Also only 4 of those instances were available for normal mode while leveling from 85-90. Upon reaching level 90 i think then the other 5 became available for normal mode and heroic mode. One other reason they may have released so few 5 mans is because they had the new 3 man scenarios that were introduced. It was also said that there would be no 5 mans released for the rest of MoP and instead people would get 3-man scenarios. There was a lot of controversy with this on the forums because people actually liked WoW 5 mans, and they disliked scenarios.
EDIT: if you were to ask me personally? i would say no to nightmare mode borg STFs or current content (the stuff we've been running for the past couple of years). Instead give me new instances tuned for players wearing very rare XI and XII.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
As the seventy-fourth Rule of Acquisition clearly states, knowledge equals profit. And I am a very rich Ferengi.
I tend to agree. I may not agree with some of his decisions but he's never been one to mince words.
That said, this is how Nightmare mode will go for STO based on established history with this kind of thing.
Step 1: Devs create Nightmare mode STFs. Intentionally difficult and challenging, it's made for the best players to complete. No greenhorns are expected to survive this.
Step 2: Devs create rewards to match the challenge. A "Gold plated carrot on a stick" is introduced in STO that acts as a badge of honor to prove to the rest of STO that they have regularly done STFs on Nightmare mode.
Step 3: Bad players complain that they can't complete the Nightmare mode STFs with a pug. Bad players complain they work 3 jobs, have a sick wife, take care of their parents in a nursing home, and coach little league baseball for crippled orphans and demand that the Nightmare mode STFs be easier and quicker to accomplish so that they too can have the gold-plated carrot on a stick.
Step 4: Devs say tough luck. These are made for really good players who have a keen insight to strategy and tactics, and these Nightmare-mode STFs are made to be intentionally challenging, and the rewards simply reflect the challenge.
Step 5: Bad players say they're being discriminated against, that they pay money too, that they play STO all the time and just because they're lazy or dumb doesn't mean they don't have the right to be in the same bracket of top notch players as the people who put forth an effort into Nightmare mode STFs.
Step 6: Cryptic grows a conscience and wants the furor to die down. They water down the Nightmare-mode STFs to appease the lowest common denominator.
Step 7: Al Rivera has another interview where he's asked if Cryptic plans to make any challenging content since the current content isn't all that challenging.
Step 8: See Step 1.
Lolz, sums it up really
- Gohan (House of Beautiful /Sad Pandas)
TRIBBLE the bads, they can go fail optionals in normal for all I care.
I am tired of this easy mode stuff, I want this game to literally beat the TRIBBLE out of me. There are only two places it still does - Wave 10 of NWS and the romulan tier missions on elite mode when the tholian captain one shots your whole away team leaving you alone and almost dead.
That is about it, everything else is just "eventually ill wear it down without even doing much, it might kill me a couple times, but im going to kill it no matter what"
I want instances you can actually FAIL, like cure elite pugs (though we almost never fail that anymore), and i dont mean just the 15 omega mark optional, i mean the whole bloody thing.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I don't disagree with you. I'm just saying that this is what I predict to happen because it's happened before. I fully believe they're capable of creating challenging content, since they've created it before. It's more of the matter over whether or not they're willing to grow a spine when the bad players inevitably cry that they can't complete the Nightmare mode content.
While there certainly would be complaints - I don't think it would matter too much as the existing ones already give some of the best rewards in the game.
And as far as I am aware - despite no win scenario being super hard - funny with it's title I know - there has not been a drastic tone down in the difficulty.
AL also said a lvl increase to say 60 is most likely to happen - so what then?
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I think you witnessed it in another thread a few minutes ago.
NWS is the exception to the rule. Basically because there is no real gold-plated carrot, save for the titles. I think if Nightmare mode were something like that... I could see it not being watered down.
The problem is how many people would be willing to run Nightmare STFs if the rewards were slim to non-existant when compared to regular Elites? Some people want efficiency and will just stick to Elites if the rewards for Nightmare mode aren't all that much greater. There's nothing there to really sweeten the deal, you know?
Which then becomes the problem if making the rewards for Nightmare mode "too" sweet to the point where bad players complain they can't get those rewards because they're really awesome.
I can neither confirm or deny that I witnessed such a thing.
Just dont do two things:
1. Give us gear thats better than you can get on Elite (although double dilithium and guaranteed mk xii purple drops probably wouldnt go beyond the scope that would cause people to qq en masse)
2. Give us more buffs.
Avoid those two and that issue is pretty much resolved.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
I think that's the major question to be tackled, honestly. Everything else is trivial up until you enter "What do the players get out of it?" realm.
*Looks for story / content ... sees nothing*
- Judge Aaron Satie
I actually have confidence that if Al were to put it out he would stick to his guns. It's not like 2 years ago when the stfs were pretty much the only game in town. There are now so many events and Q'd content the Windows takes up my whole screen on my laptop to see it. There is much less pressure to make everything accessible to every player.
Nws also gives out massive amounts of fleet marks at the higher levels - but you don't see many people complaining that they can't get it because the other content provides so much for players.
Cryptic is probably in the best position content wise to be able to add these 'nightmare' modes than they have ever been.
Its not just power creep, its also player skill and innovation at work. Tactics and what have you. Once we figured out the most efficient way to kill borg, our builds changed to reflect that.
I run just fine on my newer toons that are lacking the power creep gear. I just ran a 4 minute ISE using mk x purples O_o
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Well in the interview Al talked about a upcoming featured episode 'series' - no more detail than just saying the word 'series'
So I would say that would be story content.
Most STFs ... most ... can be done with basic gear (green or blue) for fresh 50. Purple gives you a little bit of an edge. Most of the time you will be carried by builds that can do 20-30K DPS without breaking a sweat.
As long as you have insulator skills and HE you and have a decent boff layout you will be fine. There is some skill in making a build ... actually it is really about knowledge and experience. But Cryptic end game has few mechanics aside from pumping out DPS.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Sure ... I will believe it when I see it. So far, we have only seen 1 story mission, namely Sphere of Influence, since LoR.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Well to be fair, I did the carrying, but you do have a valid point. Experience matters. And like your other thread, you have also validated MY point here.
Its not just power creep, its the experience factor in builds and mechanics that makes or breaks the difficulty level.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
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Al Rivera is the one who signs off on a design, popular or not. in ths case season 8 has been pretty much a disaster. you may think of his as your favorite but im withholding further judgement until season 9 or 10, assuming the latter happens.
casual players have a hard enough time on normal then elite, some half serious players could do elite, the nightmare mode should be exclusive to fleets alone because of the elite weapons, armours, kits and experience which pugs would never get.
so you consider Al your favorite then throw him to the wolves as a lead designer for a bad choice like on ground like you mentioned? is he your favorite or not?
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
Valdus | Charn | Costello | Typhus | Thyran
Season 8's Laser Tag Dino is Al's idea. He took a line from a "fad movie" from a decade ago and turned into the cornerstone of this season. He also says that science and engineer toons and ships are fine, escorts are not OP and beam weapons were always competitive.
I don't think he lives in the same universe as the rest of players. My guess ... he is in 2410 already.
- Judge Aaron Satie
First one is the idea that more=harder. I wouldn't be tempted to play a nightmare STF if it is just exactly the same mission only with more enemies with buffed stats. Hopefully they'd be re-worked in a more creative way. More intelligent enemies, more standard objectives and even harder optionals.
Secondly for every thread asking for harder content there always seems to be one calling for a nerf because its too hard. And to please the masses I can see them being nerfed to the point they are just elite level missions with more work to do, and no-one would touch them. Especially if they are just grinding for marks.
This.
Exhibit A: "Season 8"
Exhibit B: "Hive Onslaught"
"Case closed your honor".
- Judge Aaron Satie
You forgot step 9 where the people who have beaten it proceed to get hugely inflated egos over their eliteness while anyone asking for help is "lol noob, L2P" and 'advice' that boils to having money and friends.