Hm...it does pose an interesting and difficult challenge to remedy. Thanks to those that brought it up, we'll have to see how feasible it is to address.
In other news. I've got another update on female legs. Remember the comments that some calves are too thin, some are too thick, some boots fit poorly, etc. Turns out there weren't as many geos and actual problems as I feared.
So I did a pass to improve and unify the skin tight and bare legs. I tested with all the skirts and boots, but let us know if there are any glaring problems we overlooked.
A second scar slot. I was struck awhile back when I noticed how many STO scars are canon scar patterns but almost anyone from the shows who has one, has two.
Maybe an individualized wrinkle placement texture. Just older eyes, just mouth lines, etc. this would create more face diversity, if the wrinkle areas could be set individually.
Type 1 head/eyes with type two nose (which accounts for a lot of the head shape of most male Trek actors) and type 2 head/eyes with type 1 nose (which accounts for Troi and Picard style heads).
Would still like a bald horseshoe male look, which could be done simply by taking the heavier shaved head thicker texture and making the top. This is the hairstyle worn by Picard in the films, the Doctor from Voyager. A plus is that this would work for most species.
In other news. I've got another update on female legs. Remember the comments that some calves are too thin, some are too thick, some boots fit poorly, etc. Turns out there weren't as many geos and actual problems as I feared.
So I did a pass to improve and unify the skin tight and bare legs. I tested with all the skirts and boots, but let us know if there are any glaring problems we overlooked.
Thank you for your hard work on this, and thank you for keeping us informed. I hope to see these changes in a Tribble build soon. Did you unify the thighs as well or was it just the calves?
Hm...it does pose an interesting and difficult challenge to remedy. Thanks to those that brought it up, we'll have to see how feasible it is to address.
In other news. I've got another update on female legs. Remember the comments that some calves are too thin, some are too thick, some boots fit poorly, etc. Turns out there weren't as many geos and actual problems as I feared.
So I did a pass to improve and unify the skin tight and bare legs. I tested with all the skirts and boots, but let us know if there are any glaring problems we overlooked.
Thank you for the reply, it's nice to see our concerns are being acknowledged. Hopefully you can come up with a magic fix (C'mon you know you want to pull a Scotty miracle worker ).
And to show I'm not all about the negativity, nice work on the calves the new images look much better.
Did you unify the thighs as well or was it just the calves?
For skin tight and bare style legs there are essentially two geos or assets for those. One is "normal" and one where the thighs are a little narrower and squished by necessity to work with skirts and not clip too drastically. Those will have to remain as is by design.
Hm...it does pose an interesting and difficult challenge to remedy. Thanks to those that brought it up, we'll have to see how feasible it is to address.
In other news. I've got another update on female legs. Remember the comments that some calves are too thin, some are too thick, some boots fit poorly, etc. Turns out there weren't as many geos and actual problems as I feared.
So I did a pass to improve and unify the skin tight and bare legs. I tested with all the skirts and boots, but let us know if there are any glaring problems we overlooked.
That indeed looks a lot better.
If you want to check you can take a look at seven@idali. On the current tribble build available to use mere mortals, it looks horrible.
Hm...it does pose an interesting and difficult challenge to remedy. Thanks to those that brought it up, we'll have to see how feasible it is to address.
In other news. I've got another update on female legs. Remember the comments that some calves are too thin, some are too thick, some boots fit poorly, etc. Turns out there weren't as many geos and actual problems as I feared.
So I did a pass to improve and unify the skin tight and bare legs. I tested with all the skirts and boots, but let us know if there are any glaring problems we overlooked.
It's not just the Trill/Joined Trill that have makeup/spots conflict, I believe Unknown Aliens could also use a separation of makeup and face patterns. So if that could be addressed, would be great for customization!
Back to the legs...
Originally, we had legs for the tight pants that seemed to be the same'ish build as the rest of the legs, with the angular calves. Whatever happened to those? And wouldn't it be better to revert those tight-pants-legs back and then smooth them with the rest? Because I do notice there seem to be other differences in the geometry with the tight-pants-legs, from the waist down, when compared to other leg types (loose pants, skirts, etc.).
Don't really want to end up with a wide variety of slightly-different-shaped-legs that don't match each other in the long run >_< Used to have a few weird leg variations in City of Heroes back in the day, that was always weird to me when swapping costumes with different legs...
For skin tight and bare style legs there are essentially two geos or assets for those. One is "normal" and one where the thighs are a little narrower and squished by necessity to work with skirts and not clip too drastically. Those will have to remain as is by design.
Is that what you were referring to?
I've always been personally bothered by the skirts with the thinner thighs, as it's extremely noticeable the shorter the skirt is. This doesn't seem to be a problem with the TOS skirts, as they use the normal thighs (thankfully, as I'm for the classic TOS look), so is there nothing that can be done to at least make the other skirts' thighs at least look a bit thicker without being scary looking?
I've seen a character running around named "Massive Thigh Gap" using those skirts, so definitely noticeable here and there...
Also, I personally still feel like body shapes on Tribble are a little weird, is it just me or are character head sizes still a bit wonky and small on Tribble as opposed to Holodeck? My transferred character's apparent head size still bothers me, yet seems fine on Holodeck...
Edit: And I kind of like the slight change to the TOS skirt, but the seam at the waist connecting the top and bottom is sticking out like a sore thumb and could use a seamless fix. And personally, the bottom of the skirt seems a little too...curled outwards, maybe? Kind of looks a little weird on my character, but the seam definitely a real issue, appearance-wise.
For skin tight and bare style legs there are essentially two geos or assets for those. One is "normal" and one where the thighs are a little narrower and squished by necessity to work with skirts and not clip too drastically. Those will have to remain as is by design.
Is that what you were referring to?
Yes, I was referring to how regular skirts have thinner thighs than the other costumes. The TOS Nurse Skirt and TOS Split Skirt did not have the same thin thighs as the rest of the skirts. Do all skirts have the same thigh model now, or are the TOS Nurse Skirt and TOS Split Skirt still different?
Incidentally, there is a bare leg costume that isn't categorized under skirts: the beachcomber shorts are categorized under "Offduty - Pants - Loose Knee High". I don't think there is anything wrong with it, however.
Also, I personally still feel like body shapes on Tribble are a little weird, is it just me or are character head sizes still a bit wonky and small on Tribble as opposed to Holodeck? My transferred character's apparent head size still bothers me, yet seems fine on Holodeck...
It's not just you, I've been comparing side by side screen shots from Holo and Tribble and the models still seem a little off.
Although, to be fair, my eye keeps being distracted by the airbrushed skin and rugby player thighs my toons seem to have developed on Tribble, to say nothing of the extra junk in the trunk they seem to be carrying.
It's not just you, I've been comparing side by side screen shots from Holo and Tribble and the models still seem a little off.
Although, to be fair, my eye keeps being distracted by the airbrushed skin and rugby player thighs my toons seem to have developed on Tribble, to say nothing of the extra junk in the trunk they seem to be carrying.
I think the updates that crypticjoejing mentioned above are not on Tribble yet. I also do not recall seeing any patch notes about remaining unintentional changes to body proportions. I suspect that some of the issues we are seeing on Tribble are actually fixed in an internal developer build. I'm not sure when the fixes will be released to Tribble though.
My character put a lot of weight on at the hips and the legs.
I can fix it at the tailor, but I still wonder why the bigger *** ?
EDIT : Female thighs and hips are a bit too wide, male hips seem not wide enough.
I personally have no issue with more appearance of weight, hip size, leg thickness/shapeliness, and the like, so long as it doesn't completely change how my characters *currently* look too far. If I want to add more to their shapes, I'd prefer the option to without having to redo every single one of my more-than-a-dozen uniform slots on each of my dozen characters to get them closer to how they were before if I preferred them that way.
Some of my characters I would want a little more hip size and would be happy to see such, as long as it's an option or increased slider and not making all of my characters that way.
My biggest concern is still how heads are seemingly MUCH smaller on Tribble even when the sliders are at full, making my favorite Andorian look a big head-shrunken compared to Holodeck...though I've yet to see the changes with the most recent patch.
Edit: Ok, so I've been to Tribble since the last update with the new changes, and...I generally approve.
However, my prior concerns about the tight-pants legs still applies, as in that it seems you were working on top of an unintended change to the tight-pants legs that we have on Holodeck recently, instead of the older tight-pants legs that match most of the rest of the legs ya'll have altered with this new update. So it comes out looking different from the rest of the legs (from hips down) a bit, and the calves are still somewhat thinner than the better-looking calves on the other legs with the new changes.
Also, BIGGER issue I'm noticing, there's some portion of the lower belly, where it meets the torso part, that is clipping out of the body. As in, for instance, using all the parts of the off-duty formal dress set, geometry is jutting out of my character's gut visibly. I will likely add screenshots later to show >_< This is happening across a wide variety of outfits, skirts with the Fed admiral's coat, skirts with the diplomacy-unlocked top, and likely more than I have seen yet.
Somewhat related, the TOS skirt(s?) have a VERY visible seam when matched with torso attire, such as when trying to match the TOS female dress top to appear as a single piece.
....And heads still seem much smaller than they should be >_<
Here is my feedback after examining the new changes to the character models. The comments about Tribble written below apply to the 11/1 patch. Likewise, the Tribble screenshots were taken after the 11/1 patch and before any subsequent patch. As far as I can tell, the problems described below remain in the 11/4 patch.
In the comments below, the term "TOS skirt" means either the TOS Nurse Skirt or the TOS Split Skirt; the term "regular skirt" means any other skirt.
New female legs
The new calves for skirts and tight pants look good. In particular, boots fit better with tight pants. However, there are still some problems with the female leg models on Tribble:
The TOS Split Skirt now has a gap in front of the left leg.
I still think the thighs for tight pants and loose pants look too thick. I am not sure why the thighs for pants were made thicker; the complaint was that the thighs for regular skirts were too thin when viewed from the front and back.
The TOS-skirt thighs now look like the tight-pants thighs when viewed from the front and back, but look like the regular-skirt thighs when viewed from the sides. This gives the impression that the TOS-skirt thighs are thicker from the front and back than from the sides.
The female hands looked too thick in an earlier Tribble patch. The new version looks much better, though the thumbs look slightly too wide compared to the other fingers. I still think the male hands look too thick, but others may have a different opinion.
Both male and female arms are shorter on Tribble than on Holodeck; I think this change may be unintended.
Unintended changes
I consider the following changes to be unintended, because they were mentioned in neither the patch notes nor crypticjoejing's comments. Of course, it is possible that some of the changes are intended, but Cryptic forgot to include them in the patch notes.
If you compare a female character on Tribble to the same character on Holodeck, you will notice that the Tribble character has
For females, the mid-ankle pants named "Panels and Pockets" have been replaced with a new pants option named "Panels and Pockets Long". The new pants have a completely different texture from the old pants. The male version of the pants has not changed. The knee-high version of "Panels and Pockets" also remains the same for both males and females.
My questions about these unmentioned changes are as follows:
Which of the above changes are actually intended?
Which will be reversed before Season 8 appears on Holodeck?
Which will be reversed after Season 8 appears on Holodeck?
Other problems
The following bugs have existed since Legacy of Romulus was beta on Tribble. It would be nice to get a fix for them. This seems more like a job for a UI programmer than a character artist though.
Edit: And I kind of like the slight change to the TOS skirt, but the seam at the waist connecting the top and bottom is sticking out like a sore thumb and could use a seamless fix. And personally, the bottom of the skirt seems a little too...curled outwards, maybe? Kind of looks a little weird on my character, but the seam definitely a real issue, appearance-wise.
I think the gap in the TOS Split Skirt is a bug.
The outward flare of the TOS skirts may be the result of several changes made on top of each other:
1. All thighs were made thicker. This improved the appearance of the thighs for regular skirts when viewed from the front and back.
2. The hips were made wider for some unknown reason.
3. TOS skirts were made to flare outward to accommodate 1 and 2.
4. The thicker thighs caused clipping with some skirts. To reduce clipping, the sides of the thighs were thinned.
You are probably seeing the result of 3 and 4 on your character. Oddly, although the sides of the TOS-skirt thighs were thinned, their front and back still retain the increased thickness from 1. So now, TOS-skirt thighs look like tight-pants thighs when viewed from the front and back, but look like regular-skirt thighs when viewed from the sides.
frtoaster thank you for all the awesome posts up there....you put alot of work into all the pics and scans.
In reference to your extreme close-up of saved costumes Ive noticed that all the fleet uniforms available under my fleet screen are suffering this same problem. I don't know if Im alone on this one or there is a fix.
CrypticJoe I have one really looming question to ask ...
When these changes go into effect will i be forced to rework my characters to bring them back to, or close to what I would consider their normal look?
I'm kinda hoping not, but I just want to know if i have to take a day off of work to rework them all.:(
Thanx Cryptic Joe, I know you're probably really busy with Season 8 just around the corner.
I don't know if this is new, but I'm only seeing it on Tribble (Holodeck seems fine). If you drop the stomach slider and torso bulk slider down past about halfway, you get a very visible tear.
I've decided to make a handful of animated images to help visually explain the seemingly unintended body changes we'll be getting on Holodeck real soon, so give these a look after giving them a moment to load.
As explained in the gifs themselves, I've animated half of my one character's Holodeck self atop half of her Tribble self. This properly shows just how heads shrink, arm length decreases, and overall body width increases.
Considering these changes have never been mentioned and have been part of the many complaints that resulted in patchnotes saying they've been reverted and yet are still here lead me to believe they're *still* unintended changes that are now going to end up on Holodeck.
To clarify, the only changes discussed by the devs and patchnotes that we're intended to get are the new hands, the changes to the calves, and the smoothing out of the skin textures. The rest is unmentioned and unwanted. Again, especially the shrinkage of heads.
I want to emphasize that I understand there'll be some changes to the shape of the body when other parts are edited around them, but some of these changes are a little much and can drastically alter appearances depending.
It even seems the sliders, when trying to off-set these changes, such as the head size slider no longer go as far as they should and barely even reach my old head size, which particularly bothers me every time I load up my characters on Tribble.
I would suggest all body changes be held back from release, personally, and get another looking at to make sure we don't get something that wasn't intended in the first place. I know I'm not the only one who's noticed this, judging not only by this forum thread but also with those I know in-game and out-of-game who have some pride in how their characters look. So please take a look back on these, I would rather have the new alterations with the old body shape instead of giving us a completely different body shape (with shrunken heads >_<).
Edit: And to add, I personally am not against thicker body shapes as I've wanted a bit more leeway to make as much here in STO, but as an option and not a complete replacement.
The outward flare of the TOS skirts may be the result of several changes made on top of each other:
1. All thighs were made thicker. This improved the appearance of the thighs for regular skirts when viewed from the front and back.
2. The hips were made wider for some unknown reason.
3. TOS skirts were made to flare outward to accommodate 1 and 2.
4. The thicker thighs caused clipping with some skirts. To reduce clipping, the sides of the thighs were thinned.
You are probably seeing the result of 3 and 4 on your character. Oddly, although the sides of the TOS-skirt thighs were thinned, their front and back still retain the increased thickness from 1. So now, TOS-skirt thighs look like tight-pants thighs when viewed from the front and back, but look like regular-skirt thighs when viewed from the sides.
I don't believe the split in the TOS Split Skirt is an actual bug, it appears to be a real change to give the Split Skirt a split as suggested by the design of the overall dress and the name of the skirt. That, I have no problem with, personally.
I would suggest all body changes be held back from release, personally, and get another looking at to make sure we don't get something that wasn't intended in the first place. I know I'm not the only one who's noticed this, judging not only by this forum thread but also with those I know in-game and out-of-game who have some pride in how their characters look. So please take a look back on these, I would rather have the new alterations with the old body shape instead of giving us a completely different body shape (with shrunken heads >_<).
I agree with you. But S8 goes lives in 2 days, so I guess this is it..
The seam at the waist with skirts is definitely a big offender - a side effect to the improvements to the thighs and calves. Good news is its an easy fix. Bad news is we're locked in for now on checking in changes unless it's a showstopper.
That said, as soon as we can start updating again safely, it will be fixed.
As a side note, this thread is now 15 pages long and with all of the references to various game builds, it has become quite difficult to track what is new and relevant. Not to mention, the title is "Is it too soon to start reporting bugs...on *today's* build". It caused a slight panic with some people here that the very first page of images was going in our Season 8 release.
Anyway...awesome news is Season 8 goes out *tomorrow*!!
Since this is a big milestone, what I'd like to do is propose a "fresh look" at the characters *on the Season 8* build. I'll ask Brandon about possibly locking this thread, or if we just stop posting here.
But, without flipping an image of before and after to see if there are differences - without worrying about what was intended or not - instead objectively look at your characters and the NPCs in the game and give renewed feedback.
For example, one of the top issues will still be the seam on skirts, because regardless what you knew before or after, it looks bad and like a bug.
Beyond that, again, with fresh eyes, evaluate other things about the characters (and opinions are totally valid). Does anything look weird or broken to you? Feet too big, too small, necks too long, too short, etc.
Obviously, you aren't obligated to find anything. Some very valid comments that we take into consideration are when people pop into a thread and simple say "I think it's fine".
Obviously, we're looking for ways to improve and make people happy so hopefully you will find the characters pleasing overall and with a fresh look we can find the big issues to address moving forward.
Thanks again for all of your detailed feedback guys - you absolutely help make the game better!
The seam at the waist with skirts is definitely a big offender - a side effect to the improvements to the thighs and calves. Good news is its an easy fix. Bad news is we're locked in for now on checking in changes unless it's a showstopper.
That said, as soon as we can start updating again safely, it will be fixed.
As a side note, this thread is now 15 pages long and with all of the references to various game builds, it has become quite difficult to track what is new and relevant. Not to mention, the title is "Is it too soon to start reporting bugs...on *today's* build". It caused a slight panic with some people here that the very first page of images was going in our Season 8 release.
Anyway...awesome news is Season 8 goes out *tomorrow*!!
Since this is a big milestone, what I'd like to do is propose a "fresh look" at the characters *on the Season 8* build. I'll ask Brandon about possibly locking this thread, or if we just stop posting here.
But, without flipping an image of before and after to see if there are differences - without worrying about what was intended or not - instead objectively look at your characters and the NPCs in the game and give renewed feedback.
For example, one of the top issues will still be the seam on skirts, because regardless what you knew before or after, it looks bad and like a bug.
Beyond that, again, with fresh eyes, evaluate other things about the characters (and opinions are totally valid). Does anything look weird or broken to you? Feet too big, too small, necks too long, too short, etc.
Obviously, you aren't obligated to find anything. Some very valid comments that we take into consideration are when people pop into a thread and simple say "I think it's fine".
Obviously, we're looking for ways to improve and make people happy so hopefully you will find the characters pleasing overall and with a fresh look we can find the big issues to address moving forward.
Thanks again for all of your detailed feedback guys - you absolutely help make the game better!
If you really find the time to tackle NPC model issues in the near future, then please have a look at all the clones in STO. So many (mostly male) NPCs look almost identical in this game. Tiny selection:
Id like to see ear position, eyebrow slant, and cheekbone options, just to allow a few more variation..i tried to make a character that's an approximation of mysself. but i have a few distinguishing features that are restricted by these options missing. Browlines have optiexons to protrude and expand, but not slant. Cheekbones can sink and protrude, but not raise. Oh and the nose bridge could sink and protrude. it can go up and down. A more apple shaped head could help too
i always wanted to make an ensign suder type character from voyager. or a Tam Elbrun type
Nice job on the animated gifs. How did you get the angles on Holodeck and Tribble to match so exactly? Is it just the default angle used when you visit the tailor for the first time after logging in?
I don't believe the split in the TOS Split Skirt is an actual bug, it appears to be a real change to give the Split Skirt a split as suggested by the design of the overall dress and the name of the skirt. That, I have no problem with, personally.
Well, that change was not in the patch notes. Maybe, crypticjoejing can confirm whether the TOS Split Skirt is actually supposed to have a split.
Since this is a big milestone, what I'd like to do is propose a "fresh look" at the characters *on the Season 8* build. I'll ask Brandon about possibly locking this thread, or if we just stop posting here.
Should we start a new thread under "The Art of Star Trek Online" after Season 8 is released?
For females, the mid-ankle pants named "Panels and Pockets" have been replaced with a new pants option named "Panels and Pockets Long". The new pants have a completely different texture from the old pants. The male version of the pants has not changed. The knee-high version of "Panels and Pockets" also remains the same for both males and females.
Should we start a new thread under "The Art of Star Trek Online" after Season 8 is released?
I'm actually chatting with Brandon now on what is best. I don't think we want a new thread to directly replace this one for a couple reasons.
I definitely want to avoid getting too broad for the topics. And...I also don't necessarily want people finding "problems" just for the sake of finding something. Again, its the idea of checking things out with "fresh eyes".
Finally, a challenge in regards to fielding your feedback is acknowledging what are actually *current* problems. Sometimes issues are mentioned forever ago and fixed, but there isn't a confirmation on the forums (or it's very hard to find), so the complaint can resurface and we have to double check the fix. Other times, a complaint gets completely lost in the sea of posts. Obviously, that can be frustrating for you guys. For now, it is what it is, but hopefully you guys know we care what you have to say.
Ultimately, if you guys have an issue, post it as you would normally: 1. If there is a relevant headline pop it in there. 2. If not, don't be afraid to start a new topic.
Cool? Hopefully I didn't end up sounding confusing or contradictory in any of that.
Finally, a challenge in regards to fielding your feedback is acknowledging what are actually *current* problems. Sometimes issues are mentioned forever ago and fixed, but there isn't a confirmation on the forums (or it's very hard to find), so the complaint can resurface and we have to double check the fix.
I agree that's a problem with so many builds. That's why I tried to give a patch date in my comments. Actually, would you prefer a build number? If I recall correctly, that's displayed somewhere after we log in.
Eh...might be useful to someone, but honestly, I wouldn't know where that falls in line with what I'm currently working on, and I doubt a lot of the artists would. I also don't expect everyone to have to post that. Ideally you guys shouldn't have a lot of requirements or restrictions to giving us feedback.
Generally, we should maybe keep topics a bit more focused and close them down when things are fixed. If the problem/s pops up again, then reopen thread or post new.
It's definitely good when you think something is related, but different enough that a separate thread is made, but linked in one or both threads.
Since this is a big milestone, what I'd like to do is propose a "fresh look" at the characters *on the Season 8* build. I'll ask Brandon about possibly locking this thread, or if we just stop posting here.
But, without flipping an image of before and after to see if there are differences - without worrying about what was intended or not - instead objectively look at your characters and the NPCs in the game and give renewed feedback.
For example, one of the top issues will still be the seam on skirts, because regardless what you knew before or after, it looks bad and like a bug.
Beyond that, again, with fresh eyes, evaluate other things about the characters (and opinions are totally valid). Does anything look weird or broken to you? Feet too big, too small, necks too long, too short, etc.
*snip*
Thank you for all the trouble you're taking in checking out all this stuff, it's much appreciated.
I do understand with the alterations made that there'll be differences in the way our characters appear on subtle levels, and perhaps even less noticeable on Holodeck with the complete update. On Tribble as it is right now though, been a nagging feeling that characters I've moved over and new ones I've made have consistently small heads that barely scale up with the appropriate sliders. It was really the first thing I personally noticed.
My animated comparisons were meant to be less a "please keep exactly the same" and more me trying to explain with imagery how distinct some of the changes can be, mostly for the head size as that's all that really bothers me aside from the seams and clipping.
I do like a lot of the changes made, I like the new hands, I like the smoother less angular legs, and given time I'll get used to the rest below the neckline (unless it gets all funky on Holodeck due to space magic or something equally weird, hope it all goes smoothly!).
When it hits Holodeck for a bit, I'll be sure to post impressions in the new appropriate thread.
Nice job on the animated gifs. How did you get the angles on Holodeck and Tribble to match so exactly? Is it just the default angle used when you visit the tailor for the first time after logging in?
*snip*
I used the default angle, scrolled all the way out (by default) and set it to not use my chosen stance so I could get a still view of my character. I kind of had fun figuring out how to make gifs, so was a learning experience with photoshop =P
Comments
It would be nice to have:
A second tattoo slot.
A second scar slot. I was struck awhile back when I noticed how many STO scars are canon scar patterns but almost anyone from the shows who has one, has two.
Maybe an individualized wrinkle placement texture. Just older eyes, just mouth lines, etc. this would create more face diversity, if the wrinkle areas could be set individually.
Type 1 head/eyes with type two nose (which accounts for a lot of the head shape of most male Trek actors) and type 2 head/eyes with type 1 nose (which accounts for Troi and Picard style heads).
Would still like a bald horseshoe male look, which could be done simply by taking the heavier shaved head thicker texture and making the top. This is the hairstyle worn by Picard in the films, the Doctor from Voyager. A plus is that this would work for most species.
http://cloud-3.steampowered.com/ugc/576751633604267315/1FBA216E5296CBF9DF4A1E384F501A532945206E/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/576751633604263925/EDF00A327C729330A7F0A5D20B86289385C8024F/
http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/576751633604265773/826C7DB92F21B9CF55C5E873121C6E686653791F/
Thank you for your hard work on this, and thank you for keeping us informed. I hope to see these changes in a Tribble build soon. Did you unify the thighs as well or was it just the calves?
Thank you for the reply, it's nice to see our concerns are being acknowledged. Hopefully you can come up with a magic fix (C'mon you know you want to pull a Scotty miracle worker
And to show I'm not all about the negativity, nice work on the calves the new images look much better.
For skin tight and bare style legs there are essentially two geos or assets for those. One is "normal" and one where the thighs are a little narrower and squished by necessity to work with skirts and not clip too drastically. Those will have to remain as is by design.
Is that what you were referring to?
That indeed looks a lot better.
If you want to check you can take a look at seven@idali. On the current tribble build available to use mere mortals, it looks horrible.
It's not just the Trill/Joined Trill that have makeup/spots conflict, I believe Unknown Aliens could also use a separation of makeup and face patterns. So if that could be addressed, would be great for customization!
Back to the legs...
Originally, we had legs for the tight pants that seemed to be the same'ish build as the rest of the legs, with the angular calves. Whatever happened to those? And wouldn't it be better to revert those tight-pants-legs back and then smooth them with the rest? Because I do notice there seem to be other differences in the geometry with the tight-pants-legs, from the waist down, when compared to other leg types (loose pants, skirts, etc.).
Don't really want to end up with a wide variety of slightly-different-shaped-legs that don't match each other in the long run >_< Used to have a few weird leg variations in City of Heroes back in the day, that was always weird to me when swapping costumes with different legs...
I've always been personally bothered by the skirts with the thinner thighs, as it's extremely noticeable the shorter the skirt is. This doesn't seem to be a problem with the TOS skirts, as they use the normal thighs (thankfully, as I'm for the classic TOS look), so is there nothing that can be done to at least make the other skirts' thighs at least look a bit thicker without being scary looking?
I've seen a character running around named "Massive Thigh Gap" using those skirts, so definitely noticeable here and there...
Also, I personally still feel like body shapes on Tribble are a little weird, is it just me or are character head sizes still a bit wonky and small on Tribble as opposed to Holodeck? My transferred character's apparent head size still bothers me, yet seems fine on Holodeck...
Edit: And I kind of like the slight change to the TOS skirt, but the seam at the waist connecting the top and bottom is sticking out like a sore thumb and could use a seamless fix. And personally, the bottom of the skirt seems a little too...curled outwards, maybe? Kind of looks a little weird on my character, but the seam definitely a real issue, appearance-wise.
Yes, I was referring to how regular skirts have thinner thighs than the other costumes. The TOS Nurse Skirt and TOS Split Skirt did not have the same thin thighs as the rest of the skirts. Do all skirts have the same thigh model now, or are the TOS Nurse Skirt and TOS Split Skirt still different?
Incidentally, there is a bare leg costume that isn't categorized under skirts: the beachcomber shorts are categorized under "Offduty - Pants - Loose Knee High". I don't think there is anything wrong with it, however.
It's not just you, I've been comparing side by side screen shots from Holo and Tribble and the models still seem a little off.
Although, to be fair, my eye keeps being distracted by the airbrushed skin and rugby player thighs my toons seem to have developed on Tribble, to say nothing of the extra junk in the trunk they seem to be carrying.
I think the updates that crypticjoejing mentioned above are not on Tribble yet. I also do not recall seeing any patch notes about remaining unintentional changes to body proportions. I suspect that some of the issues we are seeing on Tribble are actually fixed in an internal developer build. I'm not sure when the fixes will be released to Tribble though.
I can fix it at the tailor, but I still wonder why the bigger *** ?
EDIT : Female thighs and hips are a bit too wide, male hips seem not wide enough.
I personally have no issue with more appearance of weight, hip size, leg thickness/shapeliness, and the like, so long as it doesn't completely change how my characters *currently* look too far. If I want to add more to their shapes, I'd prefer the option to without having to redo every single one of my more-than-a-dozen uniform slots on each of my dozen characters to get them closer to how they were before if I preferred them that way.
Some of my characters I would want a little more hip size and would be happy to see such, as long as it's an option or increased slider and not making all of my characters that way.
My biggest concern is still how heads are seemingly MUCH smaller on Tribble even when the sliders are at full, making my favorite Andorian look a big head-shrunken compared to Holodeck...though I've yet to see the changes with the most recent patch.
Edit: Ok, so I've been to Tribble since the last update with the new changes, and...I generally approve.
However, my prior concerns about the tight-pants legs still applies, as in that it seems you were working on top of an unintended change to the tight-pants legs that we have on Holodeck recently, instead of the older tight-pants legs that match most of the rest of the legs ya'll have altered with this new update. So it comes out looking different from the rest of the legs (from hips down) a bit, and the calves are still somewhat thinner than the better-looking calves on the other legs with the new changes.
Also, BIGGER issue I'm noticing, there's some portion of the lower belly, where it meets the torso part, that is clipping out of the body. As in, for instance, using all the parts of the off-duty formal dress set, geometry is jutting out of my character's gut visibly. I will likely add screenshots later to show >_< This is happening across a wide variety of outfits, skirts with the Fed admiral's coat, skirts with the diplomacy-unlocked top, and likely more than I have seen yet.
Somewhat related, the TOS skirt(s?) have a VERY visible seam when matched with torso attire, such as when trying to match the TOS female dress top to appear as a single piece.
....And heads still seem much smaller than they should be >_<
In the comments below, the term "TOS skirt" means either the TOS Nurse Skirt or the TOS Split Skirt; the term "regular skirt" means any other skirt.
New female legs
The new calves for skirts and tight pants look good. In particular, boots fit better with tight pants. However, there are still some problems with the female leg models on Tribble:
Andorian female: TOS Split Skirt
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Andorian female: Regular skirt
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Andorian female: Tight pants
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
New hands
The female hands looked too thick in an earlier Tribble patch. The new version looks much better, though the thumbs look slightly too wide compared to the other fingers. I still think the male hands look too thick, but others may have a different opinion.
Vulcan female: Hands
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Alien male: Hands
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Both male and female arms are shorter on Tribble than on Holodeck; I think this change may be unintended.
Unintended changes
I consider the following changes to be unintended, because they were mentioned in neither the patch notes nor crypticjoejing's comments. Of course, it is possible that some of the changes are intended, but Cryptic forgot to include them in the patch notes.
If you compare a female character on Tribble to the same character on Holodeck, you will notice that the Tribble character has
Vulcan female
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Front (close-up): Holodeck, Tribble
If you compare a male character on Tribble to the same character on Holodeck, you will notice that the Tribble character has
Andorian male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Front (close-up): Holodeck, Tribble
For females, the mid-ankle pants named "Panels and Pockets" have been replaced with a new pants option named "Panels and Pockets Long". The new pants have a completely different texture from the old pants. The male version of the pants has not changed. The knee-high version of "Panels and Pockets" also remains the same for both males and females.
Andorian female: Mid-Ankle Panels and Pockets
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
My questions about these unmentioned changes are as follows:
Other problems
The following bugs have existed since Legacy of Romulus was beta on Tribble. It would be nice to get a fix for them. This seems more like a job for a UI programmer than a character artist though.
Broken "Save Outfit" button
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=661331
Extreme close-up in saved costume file
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=661321
Armor parts shown for uneditable boffs
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=675991
Incorrect tooltips on reset and randomize buttons
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=645241
I think the gap in the TOS Split Skirt is a bug.
The outward flare of the TOS skirts may be the result of several changes made on top of each other:
1. All thighs were made thicker. This improved the appearance of the thighs for regular skirts when viewed from the front and back.
2. The hips were made wider for some unknown reason.
3. TOS skirts were made to flare outward to accommodate 1 and 2.
4. The thicker thighs caused clipping with some skirts. To reduce clipping, the sides of the thighs were thinned.
You are probably seeing the result of 3 and 4 on your character. Oddly, although the sides of the TOS-skirt thighs were thinned, their front and back still retain the increased thickness from 1. So now, TOS-skirt thighs look like tight-pants thighs when viewed from the front and back, but look like regular-skirt thighs when viewed from the sides.
In reference to your extreme close-up of saved costumes Ive noticed that all the fleet uniforms available under my fleet screen are suffering this same problem. I don't know if Im alone on this one or there is a fix.
CrypticJoe I have one really looming question to ask ...
When these changes go into effect will i be forced to rework my characters to bring them back to, or close to what I would consider their normal look?
I'm kinda hoping not, but I just want to know if i have to take a day off of work to rework them all.:(
Thanx Cryptic Joe, I know you're probably really busy with Season 8 just around the corner.
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae100/Dean5859/FormalWear1_zps4b7578d2.png
I've only noticed it on Formal Wear so far (I've not had chance to check all other clothing options).
http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z432/cerritouru/skirtsrotas.png
Stomach size and stances did not fix this, and also happened in my joined Trill captain.
I guess there is no time to fix before this goes live, but plz fix it asap beacose is just ruined the skirt.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
As explained in the gifs themselves, I've animated half of my one character's Holodeck self atop half of her Tribble self. This properly shows just how heads shrink, arm length decreases, and overall body width increases.
Considering these changes have never been mentioned and have been part of the many complaints that resulted in patchnotes saying they've been reverted and yet are still here lead me to believe they're *still* unintended changes that are now going to end up on Holodeck.
To clarify, the only changes discussed by the devs and patchnotes that we're intended to get are the new hands, the changes to the calves, and the smoothing out of the skin textures. The rest is unmentioned and unwanted. Again, especially the shrinkage of heads.
http://imageshack.us/a/img853/1422/x64q.gif
http://imageshack.us/a/img51/969/59k.gif
http://imageshack.us/a/img6/7679/ba0.gif
http://imageshack.us/a/img20/2131/715i.gif
And this one is just a still image showing a little more of the skirt-gut-clippingness.
http://imageshack.us/a/img842/438/wexd.jpg
I want to emphasize that I understand there'll be some changes to the shape of the body when other parts are edited around them, but some of these changes are a little much and can drastically alter appearances depending.
It even seems the sliders, when trying to off-set these changes, such as the head size slider no longer go as far as they should and barely even reach my old head size, which particularly bothers me every time I load up my characters on Tribble.
I would suggest all body changes be held back from release, personally, and get another looking at to make sure we don't get something that wasn't intended in the first place. I know I'm not the only one who's noticed this, judging not only by this forum thread but also with those I know in-game and out-of-game who have some pride in how their characters look. So please take a look back on these, I would rather have the new alterations with the old body shape instead of giving us a completely different body shape (with shrunken heads >_<).
Edit: And to add, I personally am not against thicker body shapes as I've wanted a bit more leeway to make as much here in STO, but as an option and not a complete replacement.
...And those heads!
I don't believe the split in the TOS Split Skirt is an actual bug, it appears to be a real change to give the Split Skirt a split as suggested by the design of the overall dress and the name of the skirt. That, I have no problem with, personally.
I agree with you. But S8 goes lives in 2 days, so I guess this is it..
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
The seam at the waist with skirts is definitely a big offender - a side effect to the improvements to the thighs and calves. Good news is its an easy fix. Bad news is we're locked in for now on checking in changes unless it's a showstopper.
That said, as soon as we can start updating again safely, it will be fixed.
As a side note, this thread is now 15 pages long and with all of the references to various game builds, it has become quite difficult to track what is new and relevant. Not to mention, the title is "Is it too soon to start reporting bugs...on *today's* build". It caused a slight panic with some people here that the very first page of images was going in our Season 8 release.
Anyway...awesome news is Season 8 goes out *tomorrow*!!
Since this is a big milestone, what I'd like to do is propose a "fresh look" at the characters *on the Season 8* build. I'll ask Brandon about possibly locking this thread, or if we just stop posting here.
But, without flipping an image of before and after to see if there are differences - without worrying about what was intended or not - instead objectively look at your characters and the NPCs in the game and give renewed feedback.
For example, one of the top issues will still be the seam on skirts, because regardless what you knew before or after, it looks bad and like a bug.
Beyond that, again, with fresh eyes, evaluate other things about the characters (and opinions are totally valid). Does anything look weird or broken to you? Feet too big, too small, necks too long, too short, etc.
Obviously, you aren't obligated to find anything. Some very valid comments that we take into consideration are when people pop into a thread and simple say "I think it's fine".
Obviously, we're looking for ways to improve and make people happy so hopefully you will find the characters pleasing overall and with a fresh look we can find the big issues to address moving forward.
Thanks again for all of your detailed feedback guys - you absolutely help make the game better!
If you really find the time to tackle NPC model issues in the near future, then please have a look at all the clones in STO. So many (mostly male) NPCs look almost identical in this game. Tiny selection:
STOWiki admin.
i always wanted to make an ensign suder type character from voyager. or a Tam Elbrun type
Nice job on the animated gifs. How did you get the angles on Holodeck and Tribble to match so exactly? Is it just the default angle used when you visit the tailor for the first time after logging in?
Well, that change was not in the patch notes. Maybe, crypticjoejing can confirm whether the TOS Split Skirt is actually supposed to have a split.
Should we start a new thread under "The Art of Star Trek Online" after Season 8 is released?
I'm pretty sure this is a bug too.
I'm actually chatting with Brandon now on what is best. I don't think we want a new thread to directly replace this one for a couple reasons.
I definitely want to avoid getting too broad for the topics. And...I also don't necessarily want people finding "problems" just for the sake of finding something. Again, its the idea of checking things out with "fresh eyes".
There is a good thread from user Havelock about the costume tailor so issues that fall under that could go here http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=823311
Finally, a challenge in regards to fielding your feedback is acknowledging what are actually *current* problems. Sometimes issues are mentioned forever ago and fixed, but there isn't a confirmation on the forums (or it's very hard to find), so the complaint can resurface and we have to double check the fix. Other times, a complaint gets completely lost in the sea of posts. Obviously, that can be frustrating for you guys. For now, it is what it is, but hopefully you guys know we care what you have to say.
Ultimately, if you guys have an issue, post it as you would normally: 1. If there is a relevant headline pop it in there. 2. If not, don't be afraid to start a new topic.
Cool? Hopefully I didn't end up sounding confusing or contradictory in any of that.
I agree that's a problem with so many builds. That's why I tried to give a patch date in my comments. Actually, would you prefer a build number? If I recall correctly, that's displayed somewhere after we log in.
Eh...might be useful to someone, but honestly, I wouldn't know where that falls in line with what I'm currently working on, and I doubt a lot of the artists would. I also don't expect everyone to have to post that. Ideally you guys shouldn't have a lot of requirements or restrictions to giving us feedback.
Generally, we should maybe keep topics a bit more focused and close them down when things are fixed. If the problem/s pops up again, then reopen thread or post new.
It's definitely good when you think something is related, but different enough that a separate thread is made, but linked in one or both threads.
Thank you for all the trouble you're taking in checking out all this stuff, it's much appreciated.
I do understand with the alterations made that there'll be differences in the way our characters appear on subtle levels, and perhaps even less noticeable on Holodeck with the complete update. On Tribble as it is right now though, been a nagging feeling that characters I've moved over and new ones I've made have consistently small heads that barely scale up with the appropriate sliders. It was really the first thing I personally noticed.
My animated comparisons were meant to be less a "please keep exactly the same" and more me trying to explain with imagery how distinct some of the changes can be, mostly for the head size as that's all that really bothers me aside from the seams and clipping.
I do like a lot of the changes made, I like the new hands, I like the smoother less angular legs, and given time I'll get used to the rest below the neckline (unless it gets all funky on Holodeck due to space magic or something equally weird, hope it all goes smoothly!).
When it hits Holodeck for a bit, I'll be sure to post impressions in the new appropriate thread.
I used the default angle, scrolled all the way out (by default) and set it to not use my chosen stance so I could get a still view of my character. I kind of had fun figuring out how to make gifs, so was a learning experience with photoshop =P