this is the entire Tribble shoot showing sliders for various hip leg settings. 91 images so its not a short view. Includes Romulan, Reman, KDF alien-gen, LibBorg Human female characters in shorts skirts so leg-body deformations are visible.
To be thorough this is a compilation same shots from holodeck:
I really thinks some should make a new thread with a new title under Tribble General Feedback that is better and more clear than "Is it too soon to start reporting bugs on the changes to character models on today's"
I tried out tribble today and saw that my toon is now a little chubby and for some reason her head is smaller, but all the sliders are at the same positions.
I must say, I HATE this change, who's idea was it to make all the Female Characters look like they had way too much cookies?
We don't want what the Feds have. We want the equivalent. We want fairer treatment. Concern, desire, greed to some extent, and passionate belief that the enough people would buy KDF items to make it worth Cryptic's while.
I'm hoping the scaling changes are a bug that will be fixed. The scaling changes also affect NPCs; many of the female NPCs walking around Starfleet Academy have noticeably wider hips and smaller heads.
I think an important point has been obscured in the previous discussions about female legs on Holodeck. There are actually two separate complaints:
1. The calves on tight pants are too thin.
2. The thighs on non-TOS skirts are too thin.
I think the distinction between the above two complaints should be made explicit. In previous discussions, posters were not always clear about what they meant when they said that female legs were too thin. Because there are actually two groups of players complaining about two different things, a fix that satisfies one group may not satisfy the other.
Ok, I haven't been on tribble in a while, but I'm not quite understanding the issue.
Is it that the female model is now "curvier"?
Or is it that the numbers behind the slider system have been changed, and thus everything is out of kilter?
Cos if its the former, I really don't have an issue.
If it is the latter, then yeh, that will be a mite irritating. Is the damage irrepairable though, or will it just take time on our end to re-adjust our characters accordingly?
Or is it that the numbers behind the slider system have been changed, and thus everything is out of kilter?
...
If it is the latter, then yeh, that will be a mite irritating. Is the damage irrepairable though, or will it just take time on our end to re-adjust our characters accordingly?
^This is what's going on. Nothing wrong with curvy / more realistic character models, but things have been broken to an irreparable degree on Tribble.
If you do get a chance, log on for Tribble, even if it is just for five minutes - and brace yourself.
Ok, I haven't been on tribble in a while, but I'm not quite understanding the issue.
Is it that the female model is now "curvier"?
Or is it that the numbers behind the slider system have been changed, and thus everything is out of kilter?
Cos if its the former, I really don't have an issue.
If it is the latter, then yeh, that will be a mite irritating. Is the damage irrepairable though, or will it just take time on our end to re-adjust our characters accordingly?
^This is what's going on. Nothing wrong with curvy / more realistic character models, but things have been broken to an irreparable degree on Tribble.
If you do get a chance, log on for Tribble, even if it is just for five minutes - and brace yourself.
It's actually slightly more complicated than this. The slider positions still correspond to the same numbers, but those numbers now represent different shapes. For example, a slider position of 20% for "Hips Size" corresponds to a value of -30 for the parameter Hipsbulk; this is the same on Tribble and Holodeck. However, the value of -30 for Hipsbulk represents thicker hips on Tribble than on Holodeck. Similar scaling changes have been made to almost every body part, sometimes in different directions.
What I'm seeing in most of the comparison screenshots is that the hips are just a bit wider and round on the sides. With posteriors being less flat. Leg positioning appears to me to have been adjusted to more naturally compliment this. Default leg and foot positioning are slightly closer together. I honestly see nothing wrong with this.
I do agree that the other sliders are out of calibration. Assuming all sliders are getting an adjustment of some kind for Season 8, I'd assume everyone will get a free Tailor respect. I don't see everyone getting screwed into spending their own credits to re-calibrate veteran characters if such changes are made final. It's good that we're paying attention. But I think it's too early for pitchforks just yet.
(/\) Exploring Star Trek Online Since July 2008 (/\)
I do agree that the other sliders are out of calibration. Assuming all sliders are getting an adjustment of some kind for Season 8, I'd assume everyone will get a free Tailor respect. I don't see everyone getting screwed into spending their own credits to re-calibrate veteran characters if such changes are made final. It's good that we're paying attention. But I think it's too early for pitchforks just yet.
I don't think a tailor respec would satisfy most people. The EC cost of modifying an existing character is fairly small; I don't think I've ever spent more than a few thousand EC at the tailor. The objection many people have is that it's a lot of work to manually readjust the sliders on all female captains and boffs.
From what I can determine, Cryptic maps the slider positions to model parameters, which are used to generate the geometry of the characters. The mapping from slider positions to model parameters has not changed. What has changed is the mapping from model parameters to geometry; in fact, the geometry itself has changed. This means that, right now, the slider positions are the same on Tribble and Holodeck. The numbers to which those slider positions correspond are also the same. However, those numbers now represent different shapes.
If Cryptic intends to change the entire female body model and not just the legs, then I think they should implement the changes differently. The mapping from model parameters to geometry should be adjusted until the body proportions of existing characters are the same on Tribble and Holodeck. This may necessitate a change to the mapping from slider positions to model parameters. I don't think many players would object if the slider positions changed, but their characters still looked the same.
Cryptic could also create a script to automatically convert the old model parameters saved in their database, but I don't think that is a good idea. The reason is that the new model would still not be backwards compatible with the old model parameters in costume files saved on players' hard disks.
I guess the point of this is people are going to have to tweak their character models in order to adapt to the change, but the overall effect will be more realistic characters after the adjustments. I've been thinking of rerolling my Romulan as a lady and I was worried that she wouldn't be portly enough.
If Cryptic intends to change the entire female body model and not just the legs, then I think they should implement the changes differently. The mapping from model parameters to geometry should be adjusted until the body proportions of existing characters are the same on Tribble and Holodeck. This may necessitate a change to the mapping from slider positions to model parameters. I don't think many players would object if the slider positions changed, but their characters still looked the same.
Exactly- I've got no problem with expanding the range to make more body shapes workable. More choices are almost always good, right? Especially for aliens, who should be able to take wacky forms. But changing the existing models so drastically is not a good solution.
I know that some people complained about one thing or another, but this game's developers of all people should know that only an extreme minority of players are vocal on this forum. And people don't complain when they think something is OK.
While I think, but not sure, maybe there are some texture improvements (or maybe is just my imagination), and the head/body proportion is more realistic in the tribble screenshoots, except for exagerated shoulder bulks, legs in some pics looks too angulated seeing em lateraly in the back, and the extremely angulated ankles, pointed ankles, are still there, so aside from better proportions, I don't see the need of that mess in the legs. Use a few more polygons, guys...
Also, add more faces, just two faces presets (caucasic and asian) per gender is kinda contradictory with the fact this game allows quite a lot of customization.
Its something else entirely when a bug permanently undoes the work players have spent making there characters unique.
I think this will be something they fix (Nothing to do with seeing Brandon's post saying the character team are investigating honest :P )
I also say this because I remember when STO was in the making people were saying Cryptic really go into so much detail allowing character customizations like they did with Champions Online.
I think they just made a few minor tweaks. It looks slightly better now, but still not quite right. I also realized that the thighs look worse from stances like "Stern" and "Feminine" than they do in the static stance. I think whoever at Cryptic is testing this should look at the thighs from the sides in these stances.
Perhaps they don't understand what the word "revert" means.
It's possible that they don't intend to revert the changes. Maybe, as others have speculated, this is an attempt to unify codebases. Fixing the female legs just provided them the opportunity to start the process. Later, they'll change the male models as well. I'm not sure what they'll do about Gorn, Caitians, and Ferasans though. If Champions Online also starts seeing character model changes, then we'll know for sure that their intent is to unify character models across their games.
The patch this week (9/27) is a vast improvement over last week. There are some noteworthy issues though in addition to some of the scaling issues away from the legs that have already been shown in other postes after the patch.
Anatomically speaking the shape up the knee and the surrounding portion of the leg is noticeably inaccurate. It seems to curve forward towards the bottom portion of the thigh where it should just continue straight down is a flat shape to the knee. In order to make that look right the knee should be wider from front to back as it would be on a normally proportioned person. http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af211/Body_Surfer/screenshot_2013-09-28-04-40-39_zps3f2ff34a.jpg
The patch this week (9/27) is a vast improvement over last week. There are some noteworthy issues though in addition to some of the scaling issues away from the legs that have already been shown in other postes after the patch.
An improvement over something that was completely broken is not a fix.. or it should not be a fix.
Now, if we stay happy with the fact that our characters are not that destroyed, then the discussion is over.
I want my character, for the one that I paid REAL money for a lot of costume slots, and uniform, to be the same as the one that I paid REAL money for a lot of costumes slots and uniforms.
Like I said before, I understand when something is change for the grater good (balance for example) but this is not something that some one need it, and the leg fix was something much more simple.
Females in the standard stance also hold their arms out to the sides very awkwardly.
Unifying the character code between games? This still looks awful. If this is an indication of what characters look like in Cryptic's other games, shouldn't the STO code be going to them?
Females in the standard stance also hold their arms out to the sides very awkwardly.
Unifying the character code between games? This still looks awful. If this is an indication of what characters look like in Cryptic's other games, shouldn't the STO code be going to them?
For what I know (never even play it), the Neverwinter tailor is much more simple than STOs one. It maybe the fact that there are a lot more players in NW so if they allow that much editability it could compromise the server stability.. I dont know.
An improvement over something that was completely broken is not a fix.. or it should not be a fix.
Now, if we stay happy with the fact that our characters are not that destroyed, then the discussion is over.
I want my character, for the one that I paid REAL money for a lot of costume slots, and uniform, to be the same as the one that I paid REAL money for a lot of costumes slots and uniforms.
Like I said before, I understand when something is change for the grater good (balance for example) but this is not something that some one need it, and the leg fix was something much more simple.
If I meant fix I would have said fix. Its an improvement. Furthermore I didn't say anything about being happy with where its at now and I think the preceding 80% of my post shows that. The fact is, this weeks improvement shows us they are working on it so we should keep doing our part to show them the specific things we have noticed are wrong in case those particular issues haven't been noticed.
Anatomically speaking the shape up the knee and the surrounding portion of the leg is noticeably inaccurate. It seems to curve forward towards the bottom portion of the thigh where it should just continue straight down is a flat shape to the knee. In order to make that look right the knee should be wider from front to back as it would be on a normally proportioned person. http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af211/Body_Surfer/screenshot_2013-09-28-04-40-39_zps3f2ff34a.jpg
In each of the screen shots I've changed the colors of the clothing to make it easier to see the issues I've described.
My conjecture is that Cryptic did not test the new leg models with stances that have bent knees. The above problems may not appear when the legs are straight.
Comments
this is the entire Tribble shoot showing sliders for various hip leg settings. 91 images so its not a short view. Includes Romulan, Reman, KDF alien-gen, LibBorg Human female characters in shorts skirts so leg-body deformations are visible.
To be thorough this is a compilation same shots from holodeck:
Holodeck Slide Show Sliders
My english is to bad to do it..
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
I must say, I HATE this change, who's idea was it to make all the Female Characters look like they had way too much cookies?
My Gallery showing the Change tribble made to my Character
Finally! Someone pulled off a decent Dr. Girlfriend! XD
I think an important point has been obscured in the previous discussions about female legs on Holodeck. There are actually two separate complaints:
1. The calves on tight pants are too thin.
2. The thighs on non-TOS skirts are too thin.
I think the distinction between the above two complaints should be made explicit. In previous discussions, posters were not always clear about what they meant when they said that female legs were too thin. Because there are actually two groups of players complaining about two different things, a fix that satisfies one group may not satisfy the other.
Is it that the female model is now "curvier"?
Or is it that the numbers behind the slider system have been changed, and thus everything is out of kilter?
Cos if its the former, I really don't have an issue.
If it is the latter, then yeh, that will be a mite irritating. Is the damage irrepairable though, or will it just take time on our end to re-adjust our characters accordingly?
^This is what's going on. Nothing wrong with curvy / more realistic character models, but things have been broken to an irreparable degree on Tribble.
If you do get a chance, log on for Tribble, even if it is just for five minutes - and brace yourself.
It's actually slightly more complicated than this. The slider positions still correspond to the same numbers, but those numbers now represent different shapes. For example, a slider position of 20% for "Hips Size" corresponds to a value of -30 for the parameter Hipsbulk; this is the same on Tribble and Holodeck. However, the value of -30 for Hipsbulk represents thicker hips on Tribble than on Holodeck. Similar scaling changes have been made to almost every body part, sometimes in different directions.
I do agree that the other sliders are out of calibration. Assuming all sliders are getting an adjustment of some kind for Season 8, I'd assume everyone will get a free Tailor respect. I don't see everyone getting screwed into spending their own credits to re-calibrate veteran characters if such changes are made final. It's good that we're paying attention. But I think it's too early for pitchforks just yet.
I don't think a tailor respec would satisfy most people. The EC cost of modifying an existing character is fairly small; I don't think I've ever spent more than a few thousand EC at the tailor. The objection many people have is that it's a lot of work to manually readjust the sliders on all female captains and boffs.
From what I can determine, Cryptic maps the slider positions to model parameters, which are used to generate the geometry of the characters. The mapping from slider positions to model parameters has not changed. What has changed is the mapping from model parameters to geometry; in fact, the geometry itself has changed. This means that, right now, the slider positions are the same on Tribble and Holodeck. The numbers to which those slider positions correspond are also the same. However, those numbers now represent different shapes.
If Cryptic intends to change the entire female body model and not just the legs, then I think they should implement the changes differently. The mapping from model parameters to geometry should be adjusted until the body proportions of existing characters are the same on Tribble and Holodeck. This may necessitate a change to the mapping from slider positions to model parameters. I don't think many players would object if the slider positions changed, but their characters still looked the same.
Cryptic could also create a script to automatically convert the old model parameters saved in their database, but I don't think that is a good idea. The reason is that the new model would still not be backwards compatible with the old model parameters in costume files saved on players' hard disks.
Cheers,
Brandon =/\=
Exactly- I've got no problem with expanding the range to make more body shapes workable. More choices are almost always good, right? Especially for aliens, who should be able to take wacky forms. But changing the existing models so drastically is not a good solution.
I know that some people complained about one thing or another, but this game's developers of all people should know that only an extreme minority of players are vocal on this forum. And people don't complain when they think something is OK.
I would prefer it if my vulcan did not gain 10 kilos out of nowhere on every costume please!
Also, add more faces, just two faces presets (caucasic and asian) per gender is kinda contradictory with the fact this game allows quite a lot of customization.
Though, I am curious as to what is causing the Leg issues. Sometimes they happen, and sometimes they don't.
I think this will be something they fix (Nothing to do with seeing Brandon's post saying the character team are investigating honest :P )
I also say this because I remember when STO was in the making people were saying Cryptic really go into so much detail allowing character customizations like they did with Champions Online.
The only major problem I'm seeing now is more clipping with skirts while running than there was before. Other than that, things seem MUCH better.
EDIT: It is worth noting that things aren't exactly the same, but it doesn't seem to be bothering me. I'm sure opinions will vary on this, however.
This is what I have with a Demorecord:
Holodeck:
http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z432/cerritouru/screenshot_2013-09-27-20-43-33.jpg
Tribble:
http://i1189.photobucket.com/albums/z432/cerritouru/screenshot_2013-09-27-20-44-32.jpg
This, with all the respect, is not even close to be fixed. Not even near of a fix.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Perhaps they don't understand what the word "revert" means.
It's possible that they don't intend to revert the changes. Maybe, as others have speculated, this is an attempt to unify codebases. Fixing the female legs just provided them the opportunity to start the process. Later, they'll change the male models as well. I'm not sure what they'll do about Gorn, Caitians, and Ferasans though. If Champions Online also starts seeing character model changes, then we'll know for sure that their intent is to unify character models across their games.
In my opinion the maximum leg bulk is no where near where is should be as seen in this pic.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af211/Body_Surfer/screenshot_2013-09-28-04-37-04_zps646ca4da.jpg
Anatomically speaking the shape up the knee and the surrounding portion of the leg is noticeably inaccurate. It seems to curve forward towards the bottom portion of the thigh where it should just continue straight down is a flat shape to the knee. In order to make that look right the knee should be wider from front to back as it would be on a normally proportioned person.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af211/Body_Surfer/screenshot_2013-09-28-04-40-39_zps3f2ff34a.jpg
Furthermore the shape of the bottom of the thigh and knee are warping some costume options to the point there just plain ugly where they used to look really good.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af211/Body_Surfer/screenshot_2013-09-28-04-25-58_zpsfd05d289.jpg
In each of the screen shots I've changed the colors of the clothing to make it easier to see the issues I've described.
An improvement over something that was completely broken is not a fix.. or it should not be a fix.
Now, if we stay happy with the fact that our characters are not that destroyed, then the discussion is over.
I want my character, for the one that I paid REAL money for a lot of costume slots, and uniform, to be the same as the one that I paid REAL money for a lot of costumes slots and uniforms.
Like I said before, I understand when something is change for the grater good (balance for example) but this is not something that some one need it, and the leg fix was something much more simple.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
Unifying the character code between games? This still looks awful. If this is an indication of what characters look like in Cryptic's other games, shouldn't the STO code be going to them?
For what I know (never even play it), the Neverwinter tailor is much more simple than STOs one. It maybe the fact that there are a lot more players in NW so if they allow that much editability it could compromise the server stability.. I dont know.
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
If I meant fix I would have said fix. Its an improvement. Furthermore I didn't say anything about being happy with where its at now and I think the preceding 80% of my post shows that. The fact is, this weeks improvement shows us they are working on it so we should keep doing our part to show them the specific things we have noticed are wrong in case those particular issues haven't been noticed.
My conjecture is that Cryptic did not test the new leg models with stances that have bent knees. The above problems may not appear when the legs are straight.