My conjecture is that Cryptic did not test the new leg models with stances that have bent knees. The above problems may not appear when the legs are straight.
I kind of think these changes were a part of the build that could not be held back when they decided to go ahead and open up the season 8 changes and that there is a Dev that isn't too happy right now because that forced his early work in progress out into the open for all of us too see. It takes at least 2 weeks for the changes a dev makes to get into a build we can see even on tribble and one week after we first got these changes significant progress had been made. They know what there doing here and this weeks patch shows there heading in the right direction. I'm starting think right now were judging a Bakers cake while its still in the mixing bowl. I'm also starting to think now may not be the time to critique the new model but instead now may be the time to politely request realistic changes from the old one.
Hey guys, there's another related thread that I posted a response - reposting here to keep everyone in the loop...
Thank you for your continued feedback. We are listening and the proportion changes were an unintentional side effect of other work. And...apologies that the recent revert was not complete.
Soooo...in the *next* patch (or two!) your toons should be back to their familiar selves - except for slightly thinner calves as requested here and internally.
Hey guys, there's another related thread that I posted a response - reposting here to keep everyone in the loop...
Thank you for your continued feedback. We are listening and the proportion changes were an unintentional side effect of other work. And...apologies that the recent revert was not complete.
Soooo...in the *next* patch (or two!) your toons should be back to their familiar selves - except for slightly thinner calves as requested here and internally.
PS - glad you enjoyed the texture improvements!
Thank you for taking the time out to chime in here and clam the general panic. Please know that we do all appreciate all the work that goes in to making this game the best it can be.
Hey guys, there's another related thread that I posted a response - reposting here to keep everyone in the loop...
Thank you for your continued feedback. We are listening and the proportion changes were an unintentional side effect of other work. And...apologies that the recent revert was not complete.
Soooo...in the *next* patch (or two!) your toons should be back to their familiar selves - except for slightly thinner calves as requested here and internally.
PS - glad you enjoyed the texture improvements!
The complaints about female legs on Holodeck were not just about the calves being too thick. After reviewing the previous threads, I have identified three separate complaints:
The thighs are too thin on a character wearing a regular skirt when viewed from the front or the back. (By "regular skirt", I mean any skirt other than the TOS Nurse Skirt and TOS Split Skirt.)
The calves are too thin on a character wearing tight pants. Some posters also complained that this leaves a gap between the top of the boot and the calf.
The calves are too thick except when the character is wearing tight pants.
The tight-pants calves look worse on Tribble now; I'm not sure why they are thinner than the calves on other outfits. Also, the back of the thigh just above the knee looks anatomically incorrect. To see this error, choose a stance with bent knees, such as "Feminine" or "Cute", and look at the legs from the sides.
I decided to check if the male character models have also changed, and they indeed have. When a male character on Tribble is compared to the same character on Holodeck, the character on Tribble has
The purpose of this post is to summarize the complaints about female legs on Holodeck, to examine the changes to the characters models on Tribble, and to point out the problems and bugs that remain after the 10/1 patch. Any comments about Tribble written below apply to the 10/1 patch. Likewise, the Tribble screenshots were taken after the 10/1 patch and before any subsequent patch.
Previous complaints about female legs
In previous discussions on this topic, there were several different complaints about female legs on Holodeck. It is important to note that these complaints are not identical, because a fix that addresses one complaint may not address the others. After reviewing the previous threads, I have identified three separate complaints:
The thighs are too thin on a character wearing a regular skirt when viewed from the front or the back. (By "regular skirt", I mean any skirt other than the TOS Nurse Skirt or TOS Split Skirt.)
The calves are too thin on a character wearing tight pants. Some posters also complained that this leaves a gap between the top of the boot and the calf.
The calves are too thick except when the character is wearing tight pants.
From what I can tell, there are seven female leg models:
Regular skirt
TOS skirt
Pants - Tight
Pants - Loose Long
Pants - Loose Knee High
Pants - Loose Mid Ankle
Robe
The above leg models may not be all distinct. For example, the different styles of loose pants may share a leg model; it is also possible that the same leg model is used for loose pants and TOS skirts. I cannot tell for certain from visual inspection alone. It is clear though that the regular-skirt, TOS-skirt, and tight-pants leg models are all different. The tight-pants leg model has thinner calves than the leg models for the skirts. The regular-skirt thighs are thinner than the TOS-skirt thighs when viewed from the front or back. (Oddly, the regular-skirt and TOS-skirt leg models look identical when viewed from the sides.) These differences are present on both Holodeck and Tribble.
Changes to body proportions
The 9/20 patch to Tribble changed more than just the legs on female characters: it also introduced many unintentional changes to the body proportions. Both male and female characters were affected; boffs and NPCs were affected as well. The 9/27 patch did not undo the unintentional changes, but instead made minor adjustments to the body proportions. The 10/1 patch made further adjustments, but certain differences between Holodeck and Tribble characters remain.
If you compare a female character on Tribble to the same character on Holodeck, you will notice that the Tribble character has
As the examples above show, not all the unintentional changes to body proportions were reversed. Male characters should have the same body proportions on Tribble and Holodeck. Except for the legs, the body proportions of female characters should match as well.
The female leg models on Tribble could be improved further. In my opinion, these are the remaining problems with the Tribble leg models:
Although the regular-skirt thighs now look good, the thighs of the other leg models are now too thick. The thighs were mostly fine on Holodeck---only the regular-skirt thighs were too thin when viewed from the front or back.
The tight-pants calves are too thin---they are even thinner on Tribble than they are on Holodeck. Furthermore, when a female character is wearing tight pants, there is still a gap between the boot and calf.
I'm not sure why tight pants, regular skirts, and TOS skirts have different leg models. It would be better if the thighs and calves across all leg models had uniform thickness (with appropriate deviations allowed for the fabric of loose pants and robes).
The "Leg Bulk" slider horizontally stretches or shrinks the whole leg by a single scale factor. But when a person gains or loses muscle, the thighs and calves don't necessarily scale by the same amount. Separate sliders for the thighs and calves would be preferable.
Although the regular-skirt thighs now look good, the thighs of the other leg models are now too thick. The thighs were mostly fine on Holodeck---only the regular-skirt thighs were too thin when viewed from the front or back.
Maybe I dont understand you because of my English, but in Holodeck, the only legs that are fine are the ones of the TOS skirts.
Good eye, frtoaster. There are indeed several actual leg models, *and* they are connected in some ways but not in others. Appreciate the detail and clarification on comments.
Ideally we'd like to eventually do a case a case improvement on issues with boots, but that won't be in the upcoming update.
Again, the previous "revert" was not complete. Stay tuned for the female proportion revert in the next update or two.
I am new around the game, but this highly interests me, as I kinda see it as an issue & hope to see some fix - At the moment, when I play a female character in this game, I can't really make her less curvy or can't even make her flat-chested. My "bust" slider is at the minimum, and yet, my character still looks like Pamela Anderson in her prime (ugh.. just.. no).
Since I enjoy playing more of an androgynnous, tomboy women in general, the look and the oversized... um.. thing just do not go together. So, I wonder if the devs are planning to do something about that.. <.<
[10:20] Your Lunge deals 4798 (2580) Physical Damage(Critical) to Tosk of Borg.
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Hi, Crypticjoejing, thanks for stopping by to update us. I hope I (and others) haven't seemed too upset about this. I just know that I for one don't want to have to modify hundreds of costumes (counting boffs) to fix them.
You say you're still going to make calves a bit thinner, and while they probably should be thinner relative to the thighs, I hope this is not a drastic change. I also hope the tight pants, which are currently too thin on Holodeck, get an update to bring them in line.
Maybe I dont understand you because of my English, but in Holodeck, the only legs that are fine are the ones of the TOS skirts.
Is that what you said, correct?
Sorry, I will try to clarify.
Holodeck: The regular-skirt thighs are too thin when viewed from the front or back. The thighs of all other leg models (including TOS skirts) are fine. The tight-pants calves are too thin. One poster complained that the calves on all other leg models are too thick, but other people think they are fine.
Tribble: Cryptic has increased the thickness of all thighs and decreased the thickness of all calves. As a result, the regular-skirt thighs now look fine, but the thighs of the other leg models are now too thick. The tight-pants calves are even thinner than before.
Good eye, frtoaster. There are indeed several actual leg models, *and* they are connected in some ways but not in others. Appreciate the detail and clarification on comments.
Ideally we'd like to eventually do a case a case improvement on issues with boots, but that won't be in the upcoming update.
Again, the previous "revert" was not complete. Stay tuned for the female proportion revert in the next update or two.
Thank you for the update, crypticjoejing. Some of the differences are difficult to notice unless you compare two screenshots from the same angle and distance as I did. I was surprised to find that the male body proportions were altered as well.
Good eye, frtoaster. There are indeed several actual leg models, *and* they are connected in some ways but not in others. Appreciate the detail and clarification on comments.
Ideally we'd like to eventually do a case a case improvement on issues with boots, but that won't be in the upcoming update.
Again, the previous "revert" was not complete. Stay tuned for the female proportion revert in the next update or two.
Oh good good, I did like the older legs much better. Footwear (and legwear) does need an update in addition to some new ones perhaps~?
Good eye, frtoaster. There are indeed several actual leg models, *and* they are connected in some ways but not in others. Appreciate the detail and clarification on comments.
Ideally we'd like to eventually do a case a case improvement on issues with boots, but that won't be in the upcoming update.
Again, the previous "revert" was not complete. Stay tuned for the female proportion revert in the next update or two.
Any chance the KHG uniforms could be fixed?
Just saying its been almost a year with no feedback/progress on getting that fix.
Good eye, frtoaster. There are indeed several actual leg models, *and* they are connected in some ways but not in others. Appreciate the detail and clarification on comments.
Ideally we'd like to eventually do a case a case improvement on issues with boots, but that won't be in the upcoming update.
Again, the previous "revert" was not complete. Stay tuned for the female proportion revert in the next update or two.
Just to clarify, the "revert" was still not complete following the patch on October 1st, correct? In that build I'm still seeing massive clipping with skirt costumes while walking, running, etc...this will be addressed with the revert too, right? (The clipping isn't there on the current Holodeck build, so I am assuming so).
...still seeing massive clipping with skirt costumes while walking, running, etc...this will be addressed with the revert too, right? (The clipping isn't there on the current Holodeck build, so I am assuming so).
Not necessarily. The actual leg geo has changed for skirts to make the legs look more natural (with skirts). Previously, the thighs were disproportionately skinny and bowl legged. This was to minimize clipping. However, there were many complaints about the way the legs looked.
Some of our skirts are short enough they are unaffected so that becomes a big improvement in those cases. And the hope was some level of clipping is acceptable. At least more acceptable than the weirdly shaped legs from before.
And then in a case by case, we could attempt to address specific problem skirts. Otherwise the only immediate solution is to revert that as well.
Not necessarily. The actual leg geo has changed for skirts to make the legs look more natural (with skirts). Previously, the thighs were disproportionately skinny and bowl legged. This was to minimize clipping. However, there were many complaints about the way the legs looked.
Some of our skirts are short enough they are unaffected so that becomes a big improvement in those cases. And the hope was some level of clipping is acceptable. At least more acceptable than the weirdly shaped legs from before.
And then in a case by case, we could attempt to address specific problem skirts. Otherwise the only immediate solution is to revert that as well.
I can give you a couple of specific (non skirt) issues- all Tight pants are too thin relative to the tall boots. This affects all of them but it's perhaps most clearly visible by pairing the Seven of Nine pants with the Tall Seven of Nine boots. The boots should be flush with the pants, and when the legs were made too thin, the feet were unchanged (Ideally I'd like to see the calves returned to their larger size).
Another problem is with the arms on the standard stance (and some other stances, too). You can see it in the screenshots others have posted- but the forearms are held out at an awkward angle.
Not necessarily. The actual leg geo has changed for skirts to make the legs look more natural (with skirts). Previously, the thighs were disproportionately skinny and bowl legged. This was to minimize clipping. However, there were many complaints about the way the legs looked.
Some of our skirts are short enough they are unaffected so that becomes a big improvement in those cases. And the hope was some level of clipping is acceptable. At least more acceptable than the weirdly shaped legs from before.
Clipping is never acceptable, its an immersion breaker.. and the holodeck legs were pretty close to perfection in my opinion.. except for a few costumes were i found the calves were unrealistically thin actually.. like in the seven of nine costume.
The thighs in the mu-skirts on tribble look to fat now in my opinion.. maybe thats what people wanted by asking them to look more "natural" but maybe their perception what whats natural is just all wrong then or i like em skinny.
Its not really worth to start a discussion whats skinny and whats natural tho.. can't we have some sliders there and let everyone decide themself whats the right look for them? I'd rather not have my costumes on holodeck change automatically in any way at all, more options are alway welcome tho.
and the holodeck legs were pretty close to perfection in my opinion..
I dont agree at all. The legs on the "No-TOS" skirts were bed. And they were really terrible on the Romulan TOS skirts.
Can anyone provide screenshots with the Clipping issue? I have run test with demorecord (no access to Tribble) and I didnt see any Clipping (no more than in Holodeck).
Not necessarily. The actual leg geo has changed for skirts to make the legs look more natural (with skirts). Previously, the thighs were disproportionately skinny and bowl legged. This was to minimize clipping. However, there were many complaints about the way the legs looked.
Some of our skirts are short enough they are unaffected so that becomes a big improvement in those cases. And the hope was some level of clipping is acceptable. At least more acceptable than the weirdly shaped legs from before.
And then in a case by case, we could attempt to address specific problem skirts. Otherwise the only immediate solution is to revert that as well.
So you are basically saying that if certain body parts are made too large, then clipping may result. Were the tight-pants calves made thinner on Holodeck in order to avoid clipping? I don't really understand why the thighs and calves have different thicknesses with different costumes. The tight-pants calves are thinner than the calves used with skirts, and the regular-skirt thighs are thinner than the TOS-skirt thighs when viewed from the front or the back.
I can give you a couple of specific (non skirt) issues- all Tight pants are too thin relative to the tall boots. This affects all of them but it's perhaps most clearly visible by pairing the Seven of Nine pants with the Tall Seven of Nine boots. The boots should be flush with the pants, and when the legs were made too thin, the feet were unchanged (Ideally I'd like to see the calves returned to their larger size).
Just to be clear, when you say that the tight-pants legs are too thin, you mean just the calves, right? I think the tight-pants thighs look fine on Holodeck and slightly too thick now on Tribble (10/1 patch).
Some of our skirts are short enough they are unaffected so that becomes a big improvement in those cases. And the hope was some level of clipping is acceptable. At least more acceptable than the weirdly shaped legs from before.
And then in a case by case, we could attempt to address specific problem skirts. Otherwise the only immediate solution is to revert that as well.
I dont agree at all. The legs on the "No-TOS" skirts were bed. And they were really terrible on the Romulan TOS skirts.
Can anyone provide screenshots with the Clipping issue? I have run test with demorecord (no access to Tribble) and I didnt see any Clipping (no more than in Holodeck).
I made a photobucket album with the skirt clipping issues I've experienced here:
The problem persists with both Sierra 1 and Sierra 2 skirts. I haven't tried the others. I would really like to see this clipping addressed before this change goes live, as this is really is immersion breaking for me.:(
I should also note that it is even worse in motion. It is incredibly difficult for me to capture good stills of running for some reason.
Not necessarily. The actual leg geo has changed for skirts to make the legs look more natural (with skirts). Previously, the thighs were disproportionately skinny and bowl legged. This was to minimize clipping. However, there were many complaints about the way the legs looked.
Some of our skirts are short enough they are unaffected so that becomes a big improvement in those cases. And the hope was some level of clipping is acceptable. At least more acceptable than the weirdly shaped legs from before.
And then in a case by case, we could attempt to address specific problem skirts. Otherwise the only immediate solution is to revert that as well.
I for one am glad for the change, I'll take what I see as minor clipping issues on a few items for a much improved overall look. Having to make some tweaks in the tailor to get the overall aesthetics where I want them is a small price to pay IMO for a better looking character model.
I dont agree at all. The legs on the "No-TOS" skirts were bed. And they were really terrible on the Romulan TOS skirts.
Looking at my romulan in TOS skirts: Holodeck, Tribble
I must say i don't see anything terrible with the holodeck version at all.
I find the thighs in the tribble version almost a bit to much.. guess i liked em more skinny, none of the two version i would describe as terrible however.
Just to be clear, when you say that the tight-pants legs are too thin, you mean just the calves, right? I think the tight-pants thighs look fine on Holodeck and slightly too thick now on Tribble (10/1 patch).
Looking at my romulan in TOS skirts: Holodeck, Tribble
I must say i don't see anything terrible with the holodeck version at all.
I find the thighs in the tribble version almost a bit to much.. guess i liked em more skinny, none of the two version i would describe as terrible however.
You are looking at them from the wrong angle. Look at them from the front or the back. Then, switch to the TOS Nurse Skirt or TOS Split Skirt. Notice how the thighs change size. If you want to save yourself some time, you can just look at the screenshots I posted here:
Looking at my romulan in TOS skirts: Holodeck, Tribble
I must say i don't see anything terrible with the holodeck version at all.
I find the thighs in the tribble version almost a bit to much.. guess i liked em more skinny, none of the two version i would describe as terrible however.
I'll take what I see as minor clipping issues on a few items for a much improved overall look.
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. Why can't we have both? The improved legs are indeed nice, but why not have the other existing skirts altered to accommodate them? There are maybe, what, 3 or 4 longer skirts max in the game impacted, right? Why not just fix them?
Of course, I'm going to have to defer to someone with more expertise here. I have no idea what goes into 3D character models and will not pretend to know what is involved to make said changes...
...but I would like to see the same no clipping in any new Holodeck build that I now have in the current one.
Believe me, the entire character team wants that too
We are constantly trying to improve when we can amidst creating new assets and content. And obviously I wish it were that easy.
For a little insight: skirts/dresses carry a unique set of difficulties. The longer the skirt, the harder to make work properly. Trying to make them soft & flowing (or appear that way) and at the same time, not clip with the solid legs underneath.
Also consider that the legs are essentially two separate entities that freely animate, while a skirt or dress is usually one entity that must wrap around and stretch.
So ultimately it's trying to get two completely different systems to work together.
Anyway, I hope that satisfies some curiosity with a very high level description of the process.
That said...the shots you supplied and info on specific skirts will be helpful in continuing to improve all the parts.
I have an unrelated question. There are three sliders named "Spad Height", "Spad Width", and "Spad Depth" in the "Body" tab for male characters and boffs. Females don't have these sliders. Some people have suggested in previous threads that "spad" stands for "shoulder pad".
Believe me, the entire character team wants that too
We are constantly trying to improve when we can amidst creating new assets and content. And obviously I wish it were that easy.
...
That said...the shots you supplied and info on specific skirts will be helpful in continuing to improve all the parts.
I wanted to thank you again for stopping in here, keeping us in the loop, and explaining what is going on. I don't know of any other game where a developer would stop in and do that, which I think is part of what makes this game special.
I'm also glad I could help at least in a small way with the screenshots.
In any case, I look forward to seeing where everything goes from here.
Comments
I kind of think these changes were a part of the build that could not be held back when they decided to go ahead and open up the season 8 changes and that there is a Dev that isn't too happy right now because that forced his early work in progress out into the open for all of us too see. It takes at least 2 weeks for the changes a dev makes to get into a build we can see even on tribble and one week after we first got these changes significant progress had been made. They know what there doing here and this weeks patch shows there heading in the right direction. I'm starting think right now were judging a Bakers cake while its still in the mixing bowl. I'm also starting to think now may not be the time to critique the new model but instead now may be the time to politely request realistic changes from the old one.
Just keep the old model, its good. No need to spend resources on breaking it.
Thank you for your continued feedback. We are listening and the proportion changes were an unintentional side effect of other work. And...apologies that the recent revert was not complete.
Soooo...in the *next* patch (or two!) your toons should be back to their familiar selves - except for slightly thinner calves as requested here and internally.
PS - glad you enjoyed the texture improvements!
Thank you for taking the time out to chime in here and clam the general panic. Please know that we do all appreciate all the work that goes in to making this game the best it can be.
The complaints about female legs on Holodeck were not just about the calves being too thick. After reviewing the previous threads, I have identified three separate complaints:
The tight-pants calves look worse on Tribble now; I'm not sure why they are thinner than the calves on other outfits. Also, the back of the thigh just above the knee looks anatomically incorrect. To see this error, choose a stance with bent knees, such as "Feminine" or "Cute", and look at the legs from the sides.
Andorian male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Alien male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Has anyone checked Gorn, Caitians, and Ferasans?
Previous complaints about female legs
In previous discussions on this topic, there were several different complaints about female legs on Holodeck. It is important to note that these complaints are not identical, because a fix that addresses one complaint may not address the others. After reviewing the previous threads, I have identified three separate complaints:
The previous threads about female legs are listed below for reference:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=752701
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=809011
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=839361
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=858581
Female leg models
From what I can tell, there are seven female leg models:
The above leg models may not be all distinct. For example, the different styles of loose pants may share a leg model; it is also possible that the same leg model is used for loose pants and TOS skirts. I cannot tell for certain from visual inspection alone. It is clear though that the regular-skirt, TOS-skirt, and tight-pants leg models are all different. The tight-pants leg model has thinner calves than the leg models for the skirts. The regular-skirt thighs are thinner than the TOS-skirt thighs when viewed from the front or back. (Oddly, the regular-skirt and TOS-skirt leg models look identical when viewed from the sides.) These differences are present on both Holodeck and Tribble.
Changes to body proportions
The 9/20 patch to Tribble changed more than just the legs on female characters: it also introduced many unintentional changes to the body proportions. Both male and female characters were affected; boffs and NPCs were affected as well. The 9/27 patch did not undo the unintentional changes, but instead made minor adjustments to the body proportions. The 10/1 patch made further adjustments, but certain differences between Holodeck and Tribble characters remain.
If you compare a female character on Tribble to the same character on Holodeck, you will notice that the Tribble character has
See the examples below.
Andorian female: regular skirt
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Andorian female: TOS skirt
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Andorian female: tight pants
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
If you compare a male character on Tribble to the same character on Holodeck, you will notice that the Tribble character has
See the examples below.
Andorian male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Alien male
Front: Holodeck, Tribble
Back: Holodeck, Tribble
Left: Holodeck, Tribble
Right: Holodeck, Tribble
Criticisms and Suggestions
As the examples above show, not all the unintentional changes to body proportions were reversed. Male characters should have the same body proportions on Tribble and Holodeck. Except for the legs, the body proportions of female characters should match as well.
The female leg models on Tribble could be improved further. In my opinion, these are the remaining problems with the Tribble leg models:
The "Leg Bulk" slider horizontally stretches or shrinks the whole leg by a single scale factor. But when a person gains or loses muscle, the thighs and calves don't necessarily scale by the same amount. Separate sliders for the thighs and calves would be preferable.
Maybe I dont understand you because of my English, but in Holodeck, the only legs that are fine are the ones of the TOS skirts.
Is that what you said, correct?
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Ideally we'd like to eventually do a case a case improvement on issues with boots, but that won't be in the upcoming update.
Again, the previous "revert" was not complete. Stay tuned for the female proportion revert in the next update or two.
Since I enjoy playing more of an androgynnous, tomboy women in general, the look and the oversized... um.. thing just do not go together. So, I wonder if the devs are planning to do something about that.. <.<
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You say you're still going to make calves a bit thinner, and while they probably should be thinner relative to the thighs, I hope this is not a drastic change. I also hope the tight pants, which are currently too thin on Holodeck, get an update to bring them in line.
Sorry, I will try to clarify.
Holodeck: The regular-skirt thighs are too thin when viewed from the front or back. The thighs of all other leg models (including TOS skirts) are fine. The tight-pants calves are too thin. One poster complained that the calves on all other leg models are too thick, but other people think they are fine.
Tribble: Cryptic has increased the thickness of all thighs and decreased the thickness of all calves. As a result, the regular-skirt thighs now look fine, but the thighs of the other leg models are now too thick. The tight-pants calves are even thinner than before.
Thank you for the update, crypticjoejing. Some of the differences are difficult to notice unless you compare two screenshots from the same angle and distance as I did. I was surprised to find that the male body proportions were altered as well.
Oh good good, I did like the older legs much better. Footwear (and legwear) does need an update in addition to some new ones perhaps~?
Any chance the KHG uniforms could be fixed?
Just saying its been almost a year with no feedback/progress on getting that fix.
Just to clarify, the "revert" was still not complete following the patch on October 1st, correct? In that build I'm still seeing massive clipping with skirt costumes while walking, running, etc...this will be addressed with the revert too, right? (The clipping isn't there on the current Holodeck build, so I am assuming so).
Not necessarily. The actual leg geo has changed for skirts to make the legs look more natural (with skirts). Previously, the thighs were disproportionately skinny and bowl legged. This was to minimize clipping. However, there were many complaints about the way the legs looked.
Some of our skirts are short enough they are unaffected so that becomes a big improvement in those cases. And the hope was some level of clipping is acceptable. At least more acceptable than the weirdly shaped legs from before.
And then in a case by case, we could attempt to address specific problem skirts. Otherwise the only immediate solution is to revert that as well.
I can give you a couple of specific (non skirt) issues- all Tight pants are too thin relative to the tall boots. This affects all of them but it's perhaps most clearly visible by pairing the Seven of Nine pants with the Tall Seven of Nine boots. The boots should be flush with the pants, and when the legs were made too thin, the feet were unchanged (Ideally I'd like to see the calves returned to their larger size).
Another problem is with the arms on the standard stance (and some other stances, too). You can see it in the screenshots others have posted- but the forearms are held out at an awkward angle.
Clipping is never acceptable, its an immersion breaker.. and the holodeck legs were pretty close to perfection in my opinion.. except for a few costumes were i found the calves were unrealistically thin actually.. like in the seven of nine costume.
The thighs in the mu-skirts on tribble look to fat now in my opinion.. maybe thats what people wanted by asking them to look more "natural" but maybe their perception what whats natural is just all wrong then or i like em skinny.
Its not really worth to start a discussion whats skinny and whats natural tho.. can't we have some sliders there and let everyone decide themself whats the right look for them? I'd rather not have my costumes on holodeck change automatically in any way at all, more options are alway welcome tho.
I dont agree at all. The legs on the "No-TOS" skirts were bed. And they were really terrible on the Romulan TOS skirts.
Can anyone provide screenshots with the Clipping issue? I have run test with demorecord (no access to Tribble) and I didnt see any Clipping (no more than in Holodeck).
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
So you are basically saying that if certain body parts are made too large, then clipping may result. Were the tight-pants calves made thinner on Holodeck in order to avoid clipping? I don't really understand why the thighs and calves have different thicknesses with different costumes. The tight-pants calves are thinner than the calves used with skirts, and the regular-skirt thighs are thinner than the TOS-skirt thighs when viewed from the front or the back.
Just to be clear, when you say that the tight-pants legs are too thin, you mean just the calves, right? I think the tight-pants thighs look fine on Holodeck and slightly too thick now on Tribble (10/1 patch).
I made a photobucket album with the skirt clipping issues I've experienced here:
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/SlothfulDragoon/library/Skirt%20Clipping%20Bugs
The problem persists with both Sierra 1 and Sierra 2 skirts. I haven't tried the others. I would really like to see this clipping addressed before this change goes live, as this is really is immersion breaking for me.:(
I should also note that it is even worse in motion. It is incredibly difficult for me to capture good stills of running for some reason.
I for one am glad for the change, I'll take what I see as minor clipping issues on a few items for a much improved overall look. Having to make some tweaks in the tailor to get the overall aesthetics where I want them is a small price to pay IMO for a better looking character model.
Looking at my romulan in TOS skirts: Holodeck, Tribble
I must say i don't see anything terrible with the holodeck version at all.
I find the thighs in the tribble version almost a bit to much.. guess i liked em more skinny, none of the two version i would describe as terrible however.
Thats exactly my opinion too.
Seven of nine:
Side view Holodeck, Tribble
Front view Holodeck, Tribble
Tribble thighs seem slightly to thick and the calves/lower parts a bit small.
You are looking at them from the wrong angle. Look at them from the front or the back. Then, switch to the TOS Nurse Skirt or TOS Split Skirt. Notice how the thighs change size. If you want to save yourself some time, you can just look at the screenshots I posted here:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=12671001&postcount=55
You have to compare the front view:
With the Skirt:
- Holodeck
- Tribble
With out the Skirt:I see tribble as definitely an improvement
Division Hispana
www.divisionhispana.com
I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. Why can't we have both? The improved legs are indeed nice, but why not have the other existing skirts altered to accommodate them? There are maybe, what, 3 or 4 longer skirts max in the game impacted, right? Why not just fix them?
Of course, I'm going to have to defer to someone with more expertise here. I have no idea what goes into 3D character models and will not pretend to know what is involved to make said changes...
...but I would like to see the same no clipping in any new Holodeck build that I now have in the current one.
Believe me, the entire character team wants that too
We are constantly trying to improve when we can amidst creating new assets and content. And obviously I wish it were that easy.
For a little insight: skirts/dresses carry a unique set of difficulties. The longer the skirt, the harder to make work properly. Trying to make them soft & flowing (or appear that way) and at the same time, not clip with the solid legs underneath.
Also consider that the legs are essentially two separate entities that freely animate, while a skirt or dress is usually one entity that must wrap around and stretch.
So ultimately it's trying to get two completely different systems to work together.
Anyway, I hope that satisfies some curiosity with a very high level description of the process.
That said...the shots you supplied and info on specific skirts will be helpful in continuing to improve all the parts.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=813661
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=867081
As far as I can tell, these sliders don't affect anything. Does anyone know what they are for? Do they apply to only some species or outfits?
I wanted to thank you again for stopping in here, keeping us in the loop, and explaining what is going on. I don't know of any other game where a developer would stop in and do that, which I think is part of what makes this game special.
I'm also glad I could help at least in a small way with the screenshots.
In any case, I look forward to seeing where everything goes from here.