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Reasons why canon ships should be made more relevant.
rustiswordz
Member Posts: 824 Arc User
OK to the point.
Canon ships in this game are woefully underpowered and totally sidelined. I understand fully that Cryptic is a business, you need to keep the game relevant and fresh with new content and ideas. That's how you make money, that's how this game survives and is thriving.
However why do you think many of us come here. That's right, the canon ships. I've never heard of the Avenger or the Obelisk or the Regent. I came hear because of the TV shows. Enterprise, Next Gen, TOS, Voyager, DS9 etc plus the movies.
I came here to fly the mighty Galaxy Class, the Intrepid Class that has explored more and seen more than any Starfleet vessel in history. Galaxy X, Bird of Prey, Vorcha, Negvar, Nebula and so on.
I'm not asking you to make them Uber ships. Or to take anything away from all the newer ships you created. But to give them the tweaks they deserve to keep them relevant in the face of power creep.
Some examples: Intrepid retrofit. The ablative armour is nice, however this ship has seen more combat than most starfleet ships and yet its tac consoles are useless. It needs lieutenant or even Lt comm Universal stations right off the bat. I never see one of these in STF or SB24. Ever. The Intrepid is simply useless as it stands now.
Gal X: superphaser cooldown too long, half it, and make the phaser accx2.
and so on...
Canon ships and the Trek shows must be the biggest advert for this game. Make the ships from these shows relevant.
I didn't want to come here to fly the Avenger or the Regent. I came here to fly the ship Jean Luc Picard commanded. Or Intrepid that traveled halfway across the galaxy. Or the Neg'var that blockaded DS9, etc. I know you have few staff but please get someone to look over these ships and give us the tweaks we need.
STO is the best space game at the moment and the only modern ship where I can fly these mighty ships. I wouldn't write here if i didn't care. I don't expect anything will be done however I want Cryptic to know how many of us feel and the overall impression I get from playing this game.
Thank you.
Canon ships in this game are woefully underpowered and totally sidelined. I understand fully that Cryptic is a business, you need to keep the game relevant and fresh with new content and ideas. That's how you make money, that's how this game survives and is thriving.
However why do you think many of us come here. That's right, the canon ships. I've never heard of the Avenger or the Obelisk or the Regent. I came hear because of the TV shows. Enterprise, Next Gen, TOS, Voyager, DS9 etc plus the movies.
I came here to fly the mighty Galaxy Class, the Intrepid Class that has explored more and seen more than any Starfleet vessel in history. Galaxy X, Bird of Prey, Vorcha, Negvar, Nebula and so on.
I'm not asking you to make them Uber ships. Or to take anything away from all the newer ships you created. But to give them the tweaks they deserve to keep them relevant in the face of power creep.
Some examples: Intrepid retrofit. The ablative armour is nice, however this ship has seen more combat than most starfleet ships and yet its tac consoles are useless. It needs lieutenant or even Lt comm Universal stations right off the bat. I never see one of these in STF or SB24. Ever. The Intrepid is simply useless as it stands now.
Gal X: superphaser cooldown too long, half it, and make the phaser accx2.
and so on...
Canon ships and the Trek shows must be the biggest advert for this game. Make the ships from these shows relevant.
I didn't want to come here to fly the Avenger or the Regent. I came here to fly the ship Jean Luc Picard commanded. Or Intrepid that traveled halfway across the galaxy. Or the Neg'var that blockaded DS9, etc. I know you have few staff but please get someone to look over these ships and give us the tweaks we need.
STO is the best space game at the moment and the only modern ship where I can fly these mighty ships. I wouldn't write here if i didn't care. I don't expect anything will be done however I want Cryptic to know how many of us feel and the overall impression I get from playing this game.
Thank you.
Monkey see, Monkey do. Monkey flings Feathered Monkey poo... 
Post edited by rustiswordz on
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About the same rate as 99.999% of all other ships in STO as well :P
I do agree that more Canon ships like the Galaxy, Sovereign, etc would be nice, but maybe CBS holds the canon ships under their leash. Because of this Cryptic tends to create their own designs and profit with them.
"If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are." - Jean-Luc Picard
Well if that is the case then I can't see the point. There isn't going to be another Trek series anytime soon is there. TV studios hate sci-fi they make that quite clear with all the cancellations you hear of.
Why keep them under their belt if they will never be used again when they make a great advert for this game an I'm pretty sure CBS gets a nice earner from this game too. Makes zero sense.
I too am tired of the Cryptic creation although I actually like the obelisk since it is not pure p2w like the Avenger and looks good to boot.
- Judge Aaron Satie
The problem with star trek is that its stagnated by some fans who cannot let go of what was popular 25 years ago. The universe is never going to move forward if you guys cannot let go of galaxy and defiants and tos constitutions and accept that things need to progress just like our real world progresses. You guys would not want to give up your iphone 5 for a 30 year old motorola dynatac 8000x so let go of this constant need to pretend you are still living in 1986, or 1966.
The in game fashions would be a lot better if it were 1966
I hear more cancellations of non-sci-fis than sci-fis, its got nothing to do with what kind of show it is, its all about ratings.
as long as downton abbey dont get canned im good
system Lord Baal is dead
Trouble is, which I've seen a lot with the Syfy channel especially, is shows get a decent time slot, they do alright to keep the show going, and then they go and change the date and time and the show suffers.
We really need to move away from a 60 year old system when you consider all of the technology like internet and the dvr people use to watch shows these days.
Anyways back on topic...I kinda have to agree with any canon ship we have would be at least several decades old...top of the line ships are bound to be better. But on that note maybe Cryptic goes a little to far at times.
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To argue that we should be content with our older ships being useless is a bit of a slap in the face really. Keep in mind that arguably one of the best T5 ships in the game is a retrofited Excelsior class starship. Star Trek lore has always been based on the founding principal of a "Space Navy" and there are many many examples of military hardware being use far longer than originally intended. This holds true throught out our history as well as Star Trek history.
Now the flip side of the coin....
We cannot expect even the older designs of starships to remain "completely" relevant as the decades wear on. The console upgrades that ships can recieve in-game would seem to account for I'd say 70%-80% of ship systems that can be upgraded. I am sure that all starships in STO have had there computer cores upgraded at least once as well as EPS systems and data lines etc. BUT.... lets not kid ourselves... Very few, if any, shipyards are going to be producing "vintage" Galaxy class starships. They will most likely be constructing there 25th century counterparts. That being said, any remaining galaxy class starships would be brought up to grade as best possible but would still be somewhat underpowered and less capable than there current generation counterparts.
Lets examine the Iconic Constitution class starship as an example...
Designed and built in the early 23rd century it was by far and away the most advanced "ship of the line" in the Federation. It was however a "jack of all trades" type of ship from the outset. Intended to not only be front line defenders of the Federation and the flagships of the fleet, they were also loaded to the brim with some of the most sophisticated kit of the age, "...to explore strange new worlds...". Fast forward to the mid 23rd century and they are already in desperate need of an overhaul. Again they were brought up to spec and even given a facelift. It can be assumed that the Constitution was still being produced in limited quantities but remember that the Miranda class was designed to be a more efficient use of new and existing Constitution parts. By the end of the 23rd century the Constitution class was definitely showing its age and had already been relegated to second line duties with the advent of the Excelsior class among others.
This progression reflects real world history regarding military equipment...
Now to STO present day...
The oldest of the "legacy" starship classes that is still relevant is arguably the Galaxy class. It is still most definitely a viable starship. Is it as good as its modern counterparts? Sadly no, it isn't. BUT... Does it need a bit of a tweak in game? maybe... but only a little. Likewise the other "legacy" classes are still relevant, even more so in fact, for there designs are not as antiquated. So far the Sovereign class seems to be one of only a few old ships that has gotten the full brass treatment by STO IMHO.
The other issue is the design intention of each class as they are portrayed in STO. This one single issue is what short shafts many starship classes in the game.
Concerning the intrepid class specifically it should be noted that its on-screen portrayal of having near battleship firepower and survivability is enhanced in no small part, due to the fact that this Federation starship was by and large one of the most advanced vessels in the Delta Quadrant. Very few species had achieved technologically what the Federation had at the time. The intrepid class was never intended to be a front line starship. In my research, no one it seems, has been able to reconcile why she was carrying two, (and only two) Tricobalt Devices that, while not classified as subspace weapons, do in fact operate on the principal of creating subspace rifts according to canon.
At any rate i have rambled on long enough. Suffice to say, the issue with some of the starships in STO is not necessarily a lack of care in the representation of there design but rather the lack of in-game functionality that suites there primary purpose. You would not send an Olympic class research vessel to the front lines of a war zone, nor would you send a Defiant class vessel on a five year deep space mission. It boils down to game mechanics in the end.
Slight issue with this. TV studios don't cancel SF shows due to them hating sci-fi. They cancel SF shows due to the high budget that SF shows require. Far cheaper to make a stupid reality TV show than to create a good SF show and the TV studios probably get around the same number of viewers.
I think one way to make them useful again would be to have STO "Classic" or missions or maps built for previous eras where old ships can only be used. I'd create a character just for that, if they would do it. It would make the game much more dynamic and fun.
The following is a list of tier 5 ships
exploration cruiser retrofit - looks like the Galaxy
assault cruiser refit - looks like the Enterprise E (as seen in First Contact)
tactical escort retrofit - looks like the Defiant from DS9
mvam - i think this is the ship from one of the Voyager episodes
long range science vessel retro - looks like the Voyager
B'Rel retro - your standard BOP
Kamarag - looks like early KDF cruisers as seen on ST 1 the motion picture?
Mogai - from later TNG movies
Scimitar - later TNG movies
Lockbox ships - Galor, D'Kora, Jem'hadar ships,
That's a lot of ships we have that look like canon ships. We may not have them all, but thats still a lot. And just because the name they come out with doesnt specifically say 'galaxy class' i dont think that should matter. You mention wanting to fly the mighty galaxy class and intrepid...well they are right fricking there! Is it because the name isnt clear enough? we have 3 variants of the sovereign...shall we name them sovereign, sovereign retro, and sovereign retro-retro? (instead of regent). There are even fleet variants of the Galaxy and Intrepid. The ship and shuttle requisition officer and the C-Store have picture previews for a reason.
Now it would be nice for early tier 5 ships to be the same quality as later tier 5 ships. But then what incentive would we have to buy the Avenger or Regent if the older assault cruiser were to be modified to have equal stats as the new Regent?
Just look at modern day aircraft.
The C-130 Hercules first flew almost 60 years ago.
Yet here we are today and Lockheed Martin are still manufacturing brank spanking new C-130J Super Herc's.
While there have been advances over the decades, the airframe design remains more or less the same as it was 60 years ago.
Not to mention the gunship variant, the AC-130J, which is actively used on the front lines today.
This 60 year old design is a proven and irreplacable design.
That said, there is no reason whatsoever that old starship hull designs cannot still be state-of-the-art.
You guys need to get over your fanboy fantasies and start dealing with the concept of this setting: the 25th century. Just as I would not have wanted to see any constitutions flying around in tng I don't want to see any flying around in sto. The game's era has progressed and the technology has progressed with it. It is a new setting with new ships. Stop screaming for all the old TRIBBLE to be as good, if not better, then the new stuff.
It's quite simple really...
New C-Store ships are in competition with old C-Store ships. Which would you rather buy a brand new C130 for $2.5 million with vintage 1960s equipment inside it? or a C130J for $2.5 million but with equipment that was designed and created in the past 5-10 years?
If i've been flying around in my B'Rel retro or Defiant Retro for the past 2 years how are they going to get me to buy a new C-Store ship? by making these new ships better. Slightly better BoFF layout, better console distribution, or a unique universal console. They need to make money off of new players and veteran players. Aesthetics is a good reason for wanting to buy a ship, but Aesthetics and functionality are even better reasons.
That AC130J comparison? the basic airframe is the same, but the internals are not. Electronics, avionics, engines, etc...they arent using the same internals as the C130s of the 60's and 70's. What i mean is they dont just put in newer versions of the same parts, they put in upgraded versions of those parts. That's kinda like how the Sovereign has its base variant, a retro variant and the Regent. The internals on the C130 has gotten better over the years...and the Sovereigns boff layouts and console layouts have gotten slightly better.
Just because the exterior looks the same does not mean the internal components are, and renders the argument of ships like the sovereign and galaxy being "to old" invalid.
i have hurt many people and i am deeply sorry but i hope i you will forgive me and i will try to make it better i am sorry.
Yup, but what i dont understand is the OP says he doesnt want to fly the Avenger or Regent, he wants to fly the ship that Jean Luc Picard flew. But its right there in the game! tier 5 retro and fleet variants of the Galaxy and Sovereign. The Intrepid is there too in tier 5 retro and fleet variant. To me it sounds like the OP is getting hung up on names. Is the label "Fleet Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit" not good enough? should the ship be named "Fleet Ship That Looks Like the One Janeway Flew"?
As far as why other ships like Connies and Mirandas arent in game? there are reasons for that and i'm sure they've been discussed on the forums since the topic comes up a lot. That may be where your analogy, even if it makes sense, gets swept aside and they have to consider things like licensing or if those ship models are in keeping with the theme they are going for which is a 24th century trek.
Any ship from T4 upwards is absolutely good enough for PvE content in STO. The weaknesses of these ships are only really obvious in PvP and if you're trying to hit the high scores for loot, which 9.5/10 is vendor trash no-one wants anyway.
So if you want to fly these iconic ships, then do it. Why not? I've always flown what I want, not the best or what people think I should - not done me any harm.
I get the point you are trying to make, but I think you are a bit off here. A tactical airlifter, in the case of the C-130, isn't a case where bleeding edge technology is needed. Sure a current build C-130 has more modern engines, props, avionics and such but much of that is because the newer stuff is more reliable, efficient, improves crew workload, etc..... Plus it isn't all that cost effective to do a clean sheet design when that basic airframe is still pretty good at what it does/
The better analogy to STO are fighter aircraft. You don't see gen3 fighters in the service of major air forces/navies of the world. For example, you couldn't just stuff in the avionics/radar suite of a F-22 into a F-4 and even get close to the performance and capabilities of a F-22.
Now where the OP has a point is that the retrofits of the canon ships should be reasonably competitive, and plenty of folks have been arguing that for ages. The analogy here would be gen 4.5 fighters. Stuff like the F-15 Silent Eagle, enhanced versions of the F-16 and F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet. All more capable than the original variants, all with more modern avionic suites than the originals. But still not quite as capable as the clean sheet gen 5 fighters.
And that is really my point, and I think I made this point once or twice before. That despite how modular systems are presented in STO -- and for good reason since building a starship, even in a post-scarcity environment, is still a huge undertaking in resources and manpower. So it is perfectly reasonable to expect that a ship can and will be upgraded and refitted over its service life. But at some point the next generation ship, with a clean sheet design will better make use of those new technologies vs. the older generation. Likewise a 2360s build Galaxy (that hasn't seen major upgrades) will be fairly different than a 2380s build Galaxy.
The ships they've built since the Odyssey seem to me to be "about right" and further power creep will be counter-productive.
There are two things they could do to the older ships that would be reasonably effective without causing too many problems.
First, adjust Bridge Officer stations to meet the current standards where appropriate.
Second, address console layouts somehow.
Rather than mucking around with adding console slots, I would propose the idea of "upgraded" consoles (or engines/cores/shields) that are tailored to specific ships and that address some of the shortcomings of that ship.
For example...
One of the major issues of the Galaxy class is poor turn rate and sluggish handling. Another issue is that they tend to feel "outgunned".
So what if they had something like a "Galaxy Warp Core Mod" engineering console? It would reflect the kinds of modifications somebody like a Geordi LaForge would do to a ship over time to address her shortcomings.
It could have a passive bonus to engine power, reduce the power drain of energy weapons (or phasers specifically), and include an active power that temporarily increased the turn rate.
Or, as an alternative idea, they could introduce ship-themed sets where the set bonuses offset the normal shortcomings of the ship. For a Galaxy, it could be a three piece Deflector, Engine and Warp Core set.
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I did not come here for canon, i came here to be entertained. I want to fly the old ships, yeah. Not your avenger flying bricks. A brick is still a brick no matter how good it is.
Yes I am a fan boy, and proud of it.
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Bluegeek
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