STO's story content writers are trying desperately to give the Klingons a valid argument to attract people to the faction in the hope that maybe someday it'll be profitable. I guess someone has to, and it might as well be the people with the least overhead.
In a 4 year old game? That ship has sailed, imho.
If this game is around at year 10 i will be shocked. Not because I dont think cryptic has lots of ideas but mostly the PC industry, the # of 10 year old MMO's, industry changes.
Not much survives.
STO's story content writers are trying desperately to give the Klingons a valid argument to attract people to the faction in the hope that maybe someday it'll be profitable. I guess someone has to, and it might as well be the people with the least overhead.
Look at the mission where Romulans have to pick a side. Apparently the Federation, the one power in the Alpha Quadrant who prides itself on it's careful diplomacy, decided to send a blabbermouth and a racist to represent them. If they wanted to make people pick the KDF, why not just send Janeway?
I'm not sure why they bother, because players who are emotionally invested in factions are all completely insane and I've seen people make sincere posts arguing in support of fascism because their favorite faction is the REAL good guy.
They are not trying very hard at all to attract people to the KDF, quite the opposite in fact. They give away anything that is unique about the faction, bring out 1 C store t 5 ship in 2+ years (that is suckier than its counterpart) and then complain that no one red side spends money.
Then add in the missions they copy pasted and couldn't even be bothered to change faction context dialogue for (being called a Starfleet officer ect) and using the wrong transporter effects.
I would hate to see them not trying if this is them trying desperately to attract people to the KDF. Its like they don't want our money.
Some people will just always support the aggressive faction.
At least Klingons have depth, and it kind of makes sense to give them a valid argument.
Watching people (for example) try to argue that the Sith are the REAL good guys in SWTOR is just . . . embarrassing. "Sure, they are all psychopaths enslaving the galaxy on a rage trip and some of their missions have you literally blowing up children, but Jedi don't feeeeeeeeel and the Republic has corruption in it!"
Some people will just always support the aggressive faction.
At least Klingons have depth, and it kind of makes sense to give them a valid argument.
Watching people (for example) try to argue that the Sith are the REAL good guys in SWTOR is just . . . embarrassing. "Sure, they are all psychopaths enslaving the galaxy on a rage trip and some of their missions have you literally blowing up children, but Jedi don't feeeeeeeeel and the Republic has corruption in it!"
My character is a joined trill that joined the kdf. Why? Because at the end of the day, in an all out war scenario, what team would survive ?
All I keep getting is the arguement the Empire is flawed without acceptance that so is the UFP.
The same could be said in reverse though. So many of the posts in this forum is 'the feds are hypocrites, therefore keep fighting!' Someone doesn't always live up to their ideals and so thats justification for......what exactly? Violence for the sake of amusement and ego-stroking? To scrap having ideals altogether? Isn't a very large part of Trek the constant struggle to be the better person instead of giving in to such cynicism and ego?
Yeah, you can forget that idealism. The Federation is already too big for its britches.
But ...
... if the war is going to end, what does that do to the "red vs. Blue" nonsensical excuse used for not allowing Romulans to be a full faction? "Red vs. Blue vs. Green" would be much better on multiple levels.
Red vs. Blue is an example of the Bifurcation Fallacy. Imposing such a perspective promotes social, political, economic, intellectual, and spiritual retardation (as well as "cultural" polarization). It needs to go for the good of real-world society (because encouraging thought and a broader and less simplistic perspective among gamers will, eventually, translate to real-world effects), as well as for the improvement of the game.
Would have liked the Romulan story alot more if you were really a Tal shiar using the Feds or Klingons to help find and build a New Romulas and at the end you TRIBBLE over both and reveal that you really are a agent and have tricked them and the leader of the RR into doing all your work for you. Would have made a new faction but at same time given you content needed to level by using the other faction content to fill in what was needed to grind up to 50.
My character is a joined trill that joined the kdf. Why? Because at the end of the day, in an all out war scenario, what team would survive ?
The Federation has more manpower, more ressources. better intelligence and better scientists. The Klingons have a handful of planets filled with 2nd class citizens who probably just wait for the right moment to rebel. So no I don't think in the scenarion portrayed in STO Klingons would have even the slightest chance to win the war.
If worf was any type of a warrior he would have turned to ezri and reminded her that the federation president didn't want to be there and isn't a leader either.
So "na na na bo bo".
Both Klinks and FEds governments have shown in the series movies and Sto to not be all that great. Personally I want a 4th faction (not that there really is a 3rd) where you can leave the other three and start a new branch ourselves of privateers and just take our FEDs Klinks and RR ships with us lol.
I really have to ask or more like question it all... what war.. I never since beta, ever experienced this so called war. I understand there was one going on, but I never once saw anything remotely war like going on, cept for the odd few missions that you attacked kdf ships, but other then that.. nothing critical.
After the recent FE episode, it was clear between Worf and the Captain of the Enterprise that, this so called "talk" they ment to have, was in regards to ending hostilities (that I never seen really) and becoming allies once again.. wasnt really too hard to pick up the "vibes" of what was going on.
The Federation has more manpower, more ressources. better intelligence and better scientists. The Klingons have a handful of planets filled with 2nd class citizens who probably just wait for the right moment to rebel. So no I don't think in the scenarion portrayed in STO Klingons would have even the slightest chance to win the war.
You do realize that the few sectors in game are not representative of the size of the actual factions right?
The same could be said in reverse though. So many of the posts in this forum is 'the feds are hypocrites, therefore keep fighting!' Someone doesn't always live up to their ideals and so thats justification for......what exactly? Violence for the sake of amusement and ego-stroking? To scrap having ideals altogether? Isn't a very large part of Trek the constant struggle to be the better person instead of giving in to such cynicism and ego?
I never once said the KDF or its individuals where without flaw. In fact my whole arguement has been that everyone is flawed to some degree.
The size of the faction's territory tells you nothing. The number of inhabited worlds is important. And I don't remember I've ever seen a single non-Klingon serving aboard a Klingon vessel.
Someone should tell that to all the Klingons showing up alongside me to fight the Borg, Tholians, and Crystalline Entity, and hanging out with me on New Romulus, Nukara, Risa, and Q's Winter Wonderland.
Honestly, outside of B'vat, some PVP matches, and some obsolete Fleet Actions, Cryptic never really gave this whole 'war' thing a shot. I've spent infinitely more time cooperating with the KDF than I did fighting them, even by NPC proxy.
Way I see it, they're not ending a war, just giving up on the illusion that there ever was a war.
it is you feddy bears that keep showing up along our sides to fight Borg. or other enemy. best part of the Queen borg mission is when she casts confuse on everybody. I actually save up alpha stikes so when that happens I can destroy a feddy bear outside of pvp ... id turn my cannons on them in every engagement if I could.
Trophies for killing FEDS ahh those were the days.
Probably nothing. Cutting everyone off from their current starbases probably isn't really possible.
I've already invested heavily in a fleet starbase, and I don't want to lose that support, plus wait 6 months = 1 year for another one to get as far.
If they want to add an option to go your own way (and be severely gimped for a long time to come), then that's fine, but I've put in too much to give it all up just so we can hang out together in a big station shaped like a bird or whatever.
What? I must say "Non sequitur." How did you come up with that based on what I asked/said? In fact, I've already addressed this concern in previous posts.
Would have liked the Romulan story alot more if you were really a Tal shiar using the Feds or Klingons to help find and build a New Romulas and at the end you TRIBBLE over both and reveal that you really are a agent and have tricked them and the leader of the RR into doing all your work for you. Would have made a new faction but at same time given you content needed to level by using the other faction content to fill in what was needed to grind up to 50.
And that would have been disastrous, because the resulting player dissatisfaction would eventually render such a faction a ghost town, or populated only by sociopathic players who are not desirable members of the community. The Tal'Shiar are not representative of Romulan culture; they are an aberration that came about as a result of paranoia and machinations on the part of the rulers of the RSE. They are a fascist secret police force, and were loathed by everyone in the Romulan Empire except those few who benefited from their antics. They are not admirable. They are not heroes, nor even antiheroes. They are subjected to brainwashing and other forms of conditioning to the point that independent thought becomes unlikely at best. Their leaders favor only sycophants. All those players who dislike the alleged lack of choice under the Republic would find even less choice under the leadership of the Tal'Shiar. All of this has been stated repeatedly (or, in other words, PRATT).
What? I must say "Non sequitur." How did you come up with that based on what I asked/said? In fact, I've already addressed this concern in previous posts.
And that would have been disastrous, because the resulting player dissatisfaction would eventually render such a faction a ghost town, or populated only by sociopathic players who are not desirable members of the community. The Tal'Shiar are not representative of Romulan culture; they are an aberration that came about as a result of paranoia and machinations on the part of the rulers of the RSE. They are a fascist secret police force, and were loathed by everyone in the Romulan Empire except those few who benefited from their antics. They are not admirable. They are not heroes, nor even antiheroes. They are subjected to brainwashing and other forms of conditioning to the point that independent thought becomes unlikely at best. Their leaders favor only sycophants. All those players who dislike the alleged lack of choice under the Republic would find even less choice under the leadership of the Tal'Shiar. All of this has been stated repeatedly (or, in other words, PRATT).
In your opinion, it would be disastrous, and only filled with sociopaths, you don't gotta be a bad guy to want to play the bad guy every once in awhile. It be preferable to being either the Klinks or the Feds subfaction. Why in the world do you gotta be a hero in a game. Sometimes its fun playing a game and getting to be the bad guy.
Personally I would much rather see them, in say the next season, cause a massive explosion of increased hostilities and conflict. Pit the two really at each other's throats through-out the chapter, juggling combat and a PvP revival with white-ops internally to ferret out the Undine and other infiltrators, and reparations could be made. Get the 'war' concluded, but not until you actually feel like there was one to begin with.
Personally I would much rather see them, in say the next season, cause a massive explosion of increased hostilities and conflict. Pit the two really at each other's throats through-out the chapter, juggling combat and a PvP revival with white-ops internally to ferret out the Undine and other infiltrators, and reparations could be made. Get the 'war' concluded, but not until you actually feel like there was one to begin with.
Storywise...it would have made sense for the khitomer conference that threw support to the rom republic to also have resulted in a Fed-KDF ceasefire. No leader (D'tan in this case) in their right mind would send the tattered remains of his people's last remaining military strength to potentially fight each other on both sides of someone else's war.
A cease fire as part of that package is the only plausible way to frame it imo
Would have liked the Romulan story alot more if you were really a Tal shiar using the Feds or Klingons to help find and build a New Romulas and at the end you TRIBBLE over both and reveal that you really are a agent and have tricked them and the leader of the RR into doing all your work for you. Would have made a new faction but at same time given you content needed to level by using the other faction content to fill in what was needed to grind up to 50.
The Tal Shiar aren't interested in rebuilding the empire (or else they would have crippled it in the first place), their only interested in sucking up to the Iconians to save their own skins when they finally show up.
As for ending the war one of the dev blogs about New Romulus pretty much said that J'mpok is the only thing keeping the war going so it sounds like all they have to do is kill him and the war is over.
The Klingons are at war with the Federations like the United States was at war with the USSR. Even have that mission in the Alpha Centauri Sector Block where the US and USSR are trying to negotiate with the same country at the same time. Sorry, meant the Federation and Klingon Empire.
Honestly, I think Worf was the flaw. Don't get me wrong, I like Worf and he's probably amongst my favourite ST chars, but the fact that he lived with human parents and served in Starfleet from young age influenced his development as an individual.
As a char, he's just way to weird and uptight for a Klingon - at least compared to the vast majority of other Klingons we've seen throughout the shows. I can't see him succesfully leading the Empire for ex.
I think there are things Worf doesn't get about the complex modern realities of Klingon life.
One of those is Romulans. Klingons raised in the Empire were more likely to work with Romulans than hate them. There's a DVD commentary where they talk about Worf being a racist in the two part Birthright story and how his viewpoint is not supposed to be entirely sympathetic for the audience.
When you look, there are some Klingons like Martok and Gowron who express a distaste for Romulans in TNG. But you also can't ignore that the Romulans and Klingons not only had alliances in TOS, but many, many Klingons in TNG worked with the Romulans. Not JUST the House of Duras either. I think many Klingons really had to be apathetic towards the deaths of Klingons at Khitomer or maybe even respected the Romulans for it.
Klingon culture seems prone to victim blaming and I think the discommendation of Mogh was one of those realities Worf never quite got. Did the Klingons disrespect Mogh because they believed the lies about him? Or did they recognize that the Duras claims were dubious but, ultimately, could never side with the loser in a fight, perhaps even respecting the Romulans for accomplishing the massacre?
I think you see some of that in TOS. They hate Kirk but they respect him. They're always bragging about what a warrior he is, practcally to the point of bromance. I think Klingons admired Kirk for killing Klingons. Either the ones he killed were weak and had it coming or they were granted paradise in the afterlife. The BIG exception seems to be when it's family. Values in Trek tend to go out the window where family is concerned and many Klingons might actually hate Kirk IF he killed a family member. But to society at large? I think in the warrior caste at least (which is not the only caste), as long as it wasn't family, Klingons relished sparring with someone who tested them.
Now... Does this all make Worf wrong? Eh. No. I don't think so. Worf's views, I think, were rooted in what he got from books rather than a practical understanding of Klingon life.
Mirror Universe Worf was different... But I didn't see a lot to indicate the intergalactic cultures were different until they encountered earth. The Ferengi may have been cloying but everything the MU people did, I think they did in response to earth being different. They didn't have magically inverted morality. And I think if you look at Regent Worf, you see what he would have been if raised in his own society. If his parents died there, it was probably humans who killed them.
Back to regular Worf though... I think he has an authentic historical perspective. There's a lot particularly in the books to suggest that Worf's views on honor were in alignment with ancient views on the subject but that modern Klingons had corrupted their ideals. So Worf's not WRONG about teachings so much as he doesn't understand that most Klingons don't really buy fully into their own teachings.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
Are Federation POWs given fair treatment according to the conventions of the time?
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
if The Fed/kdf War Ends, Warf Must Become Chancellor. I Would Love To See The Final Scene Of Warf Killing The Current Chancellor Bc He Is An Undine Infiltrator. That Would Be Epic.
I never once said the KDF or its individuals where without flaw. In fact my whole arguement has been that everyone is flawed to some degree.
I'm going to have to agree with this. Especially in regards to the UFP and Klingon Empire of the 25th Century.
Both sides send out mixed signals. The Klingons still talk of honor and noble traditions, while reverting (in part) to the attitudes of the Empire in the 23rd Century (by association with, and tolerance of, slavers, pirates, and criminals. And their dishonorable activities).
The Federation? The same. Harping on the unicorn and pixie dust ideals of the 24th Century, while going back to the militaristic stances of the 23rd Century.
It's been demonstrated in the game that there are individuals who try to live up to those ideals. But most on both sides are of the attitude of "kick TRIBBLE and take names".
Comments
I mean, look at that alternate timeline episode. They all seemed happy.
In a 4 year old game? That ship has sailed, imho.
If this game is around at year 10 i will be shocked. Not because I dont think cryptic has lots of ideas but mostly the PC industry, the # of 10 year old MMO's, industry changes.
Not much survives.
They are not trying very hard at all to attract people to the KDF, quite the opposite in fact. They give away anything that is unique about the faction, bring out 1 C store t 5 ship in 2+ years (that is suckier than its counterpart) and then complain that no one red side spends money.
Then add in the missions they copy pasted and couldn't even be bothered to change faction context dialogue for (being called a Starfleet officer ect) and using the wrong transporter effects.
I would hate to see them not trying if this is them trying desperately to attract people to the KDF. Its like they don't want our money.
Some people will just always support the aggressive faction.
At least Klingons have depth, and it kind of makes sense to give them a valid argument.
Watching people (for example) try to argue that the Sith are the REAL good guys in SWTOR is just . . . embarrassing. "Sure, they are all psychopaths enslaving the galaxy on a rage trip and some of their missions have you literally blowing up children, but Jedi don't feeeeeeeeel and the Republic has corruption in it!"
My character is a joined trill that joined the kdf. Why? Because at the end of the day, in an all out war scenario, what team would survive ?
the Pakleds
The Iconians. :eek:
You'll have to tell me how their uniform fits.
Or tribbles.
The same could be said in reverse though. So many of the posts in this forum is 'the feds are hypocrites, therefore keep fighting!' Someone doesn't always live up to their ideals and so thats justification for......what exactly? Violence for the sake of amusement and ego-stroking? To scrap having ideals altogether? Isn't a very large part of Trek the constant struggle to be the better person instead of giving in to such cynicism and ego?
Would have liked the Romulan story alot more if you were really a Tal shiar using the Feds or Klingons to help find and build a New Romulas and at the end you TRIBBLE over both and reveal that you really are a agent and have tricked them and the leader of the RR into doing all your work for you. Would have made a new faction but at same time given you content needed to level by using the other faction content to fill in what was needed to grind up to 50.
The Federation has more manpower, more ressources. better intelligence and better scientists. The Klingons have a handful of planets filled with 2nd class citizens who probably just wait for the right moment to rebel. So no I don't think in the scenarion portrayed in STO Klingons would have even the slightest chance to win the war.
Both Klinks and FEds governments have shown in the series movies and Sto to not be all that great. Personally I want a 4th faction (not that there really is a 3rd) where you can leave the other three and start a new branch ourselves of privateers and just take our FEDs Klinks and RR ships with us lol.
After the recent FE episode, it was clear between Worf and the Captain of the Enterprise that, this so called "talk" they ment to have, was in regards to ending hostilities (that I never seen really) and becoming allies once again.. wasnt really too hard to pick up the "vibes" of what was going on.
You do realize that the few sectors in game are not representative of the size of the actual factions right?
http://startreklives.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/beta.jpg
I never once said the KDF or its individuals where without flaw. In fact my whole arguement has been that everyone is flawed to some degree.
R.I.P
The size of the faction's territory tells you nothing. The number of inhabited worlds is important. And I don't remember I've ever seen a single non-Klingon serving aboard a Klingon vessel.
it is you feddy bears that keep showing up along our sides to fight Borg. or other enemy. best part of the Queen borg mission is when she casts confuse on everybody. I actually save up alpha stikes so when that happens I can destroy a feddy bear outside of pvp ... id turn my cannons on them in every engagement if I could.
What? I must say "Non sequitur." How did you come up with that based on what I asked/said? In fact, I've already addressed this concern in previous posts.
And that would have been disastrous, because the resulting player dissatisfaction would eventually render such a faction a ghost town, or populated only by sociopathic players who are not desirable members of the community. The Tal'Shiar are not representative of Romulan culture; they are an aberration that came about as a result of paranoia and machinations on the part of the rulers of the RSE. They are a fascist secret police force, and were loathed by everyone in the Romulan Empire except those few who benefited from their antics. They are not admirable. They are not heroes, nor even antiheroes. They are subjected to brainwashing and other forms of conditioning to the point that independent thought becomes unlikely at best. Their leaders favor only sycophants. All those players who dislike the alleged lack of choice under the Republic would find even less choice under the leadership of the Tal'Shiar. All of this has been stated repeatedly (or, in other words, PRATT).
In your opinion, it would be disastrous, and only filled with sociopaths, you don't gotta be a bad guy to want to play the bad guy every once in awhile. It be preferable to being either the Klinks or the Feds subfaction. Why in the world do you gotta be a hero in a game. Sometimes its fun playing a game and getting to be the bad guy.
See, this player gets it.
R.I.P
A cease fire as part of that package is the only plausible way to frame it imo
The Tal Shiar aren't interested in rebuilding the empire (or else they would have crippled it in the first place), their only interested in sucking up to the Iconians to save their own skins when they finally show up.
As for ending the war one of the dev blogs about New Romulus pretty much said that J'mpok is the only thing keeping the war going so it sounds like all they have to do is kill him and the war is over.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeQifImY4Hk
Yes, including the Peruvian music and furry creature playing drums on Klingon helmets.
Sorry, I had to.
I think there are things Worf doesn't get about the complex modern realities of Klingon life.
One of those is Romulans. Klingons raised in the Empire were more likely to work with Romulans than hate them. There's a DVD commentary where they talk about Worf being a racist in the two part Birthright story and how his viewpoint is not supposed to be entirely sympathetic for the audience.
When you look, there are some Klingons like Martok and Gowron who express a distaste for Romulans in TNG. But you also can't ignore that the Romulans and Klingons not only had alliances in TOS, but many, many Klingons in TNG worked with the Romulans. Not JUST the House of Duras either. I think many Klingons really had to be apathetic towards the deaths of Klingons at Khitomer or maybe even respected the Romulans for it.
Klingon culture seems prone to victim blaming and I think the discommendation of Mogh was one of those realities Worf never quite got. Did the Klingons disrespect Mogh because they believed the lies about him? Or did they recognize that the Duras claims were dubious but, ultimately, could never side with the loser in a fight, perhaps even respecting the Romulans for accomplishing the massacre?
I think you see some of that in TOS. They hate Kirk but they respect him. They're always bragging about what a warrior he is, practcally to the point of bromance. I think Klingons admired Kirk for killing Klingons. Either the ones he killed were weak and had it coming or they were granted paradise in the afterlife. The BIG exception seems to be when it's family. Values in Trek tend to go out the window where family is concerned and many Klingons might actually hate Kirk IF he killed a family member. But to society at large? I think in the warrior caste at least (which is not the only caste), as long as it wasn't family, Klingons relished sparring with someone who tested them.
Now... Does this all make Worf wrong? Eh. No. I don't think so. Worf's views, I think, were rooted in what he got from books rather than a practical understanding of Klingon life.
Mirror Universe Worf was different... But I didn't see a lot to indicate the intergalactic cultures were different until they encountered earth. The Ferengi may have been cloying but everything the MU people did, I think they did in response to earth being different. They didn't have magically inverted morality. And I think if you look at Regent Worf, you see what he would have been if raised in his own society. If his parents died there, it was probably humans who killed them.
Back to regular Worf though... I think he has an authentic historical perspective. There's a lot particularly in the books to suggest that Worf's views on honor were in alignment with ancient views on the subject but that modern Klingons had corrupted their ideals. So Worf's not WRONG about teachings so much as he doesn't understand that most Klingons don't really buy fully into their own teachings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycbra3zn9kw
- Judge Aaron Satie
Are Federation POWs given fair treatment according to the conventions of the time?
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
this. Yesssss!!!!!
I'm going to have to agree with this. Especially in regards to the UFP and Klingon Empire of the 25th Century.
Both sides send out mixed signals. The Klingons still talk of honor and noble traditions, while reverting (in part) to the attitudes of the Empire in the 23rd Century (by association with, and tolerance of, slavers, pirates, and criminals. And their dishonorable activities).
The Federation? The same. Harping on the unicorn and pixie dust ideals of the 24th Century, while going back to the militaristic stances of the 23rd Century.
It's been demonstrated in the game that there are individuals who try to live up to those ideals. But most on both sides are of the attitude of "kick TRIBBLE and take names".