I do not agree.
Most of player when playing sto think only about their dps... but all in all when you play in a team everything changes. A specialized scientist can multiply the dps of every teammate debuffing/controlling the opponent or healing teammates and also managing the agro (using the great shield and good hul regen rate and the threat scaling consoles... other sci abilities can help a lot).
Think about what escorts can do (how devasting can be an alpha strike) if your scentist at the same time debuff your opponent and get the agro.
and how exactly isn't an engi in a sci vessel superior in doing this than a sci in a sci vessel...
or how is a sci captain not capable of doing his tricks in an escort or cruiser?
the things you mentioned can be done with any class in a sci vessel, or with a sci in an escort or cruiser to even greater effect.
fact is, the captain science abilities like subnuke, or scatter field or any other, you just name it, are not emplified by a science skill, while on the other hand an engi in theory adds a hell of a lot survivability (a great shieldheal), more energy, instant hull/shield heal.
already there anybody can see that this synergy works great.
Now a tac in a sci vessel may not be good if you build it as a CC vessel, because his dmg amplifiers do not work with those sci powers, but they do work with sci powers that deal dmg, and actually they work very, very well...actually too well.
the synergy a sci brings to a sci vessel is rather scarse...sensor scan, combined with TR or GW, but those work also without sensor scan good enough.
so basically a sci captain exists for his subnuke and his sensor scan and both don't need him to be in a sci vessel, not even by a long shot.
I will echo the suggestion for the Vesta, plus if you have a Tactical and an Engineer character, they'll be able to use it if you buy the bundle, which is an awesome investment, in my opinion.
I wrote the vesta is not a pure science ship because of the hangar, but I didn't said the hangar make the vesta a non good sci ship. I said "non pure" as opposite to a ship without hangars. Ex. comparing vesta and wells, the vesta has one hangar but also a lower turn rate (20% less) ad a less flexible boffs layout.
I wasn't criticising your comment. I quoted you because you provoked the question of how we define a science ship. If we don't define what a science ship is how can we judge which is best?
As you say the temporal science vessel has a more flexible boff layout and the vesta has a hanger. There are other differences too, the shield modifiers, the hull points and turn modifiers. The extra bonus that the wells get with a temporal warfair set, the advantages the Vesta gets from aux cannons etc.
My science ships include the fleet nova, the intrepid, the nebula, the Vesta the wells(with full temporal set and mobius console)and the atrox. I also have the maximum number of Boffs (54) so that I can fly these ships and my cruisers and escorts in many different configurations. I enjoy flying all these ships so how am I to judge which is the best science ship?
Now we could judge the ships based simply on their efficiency when tackling different kinds of content. But if we do that we will be judging the science ships largely upon how easy it is to configure them for DPS. What is the point of making such an assessment given that higher DPS can be achieved with both cruisers and escorts?
I also chose to rule out judging the ships in a healing role, because no matter how much you spec a ship with a commander science boff and lieutenant commander engineering boff. You will never be able to match the effectiveness of a dedicated healing ship with a commander engineering boff and a lieutenant commander science boff.
Now I'm not saying you cant support your team with healing in a science ship. You can, and you can do it very well. But you cant do it as well as you could with extend shields 3.
So that leaves offensive science abilities (which includes controls, de-buffs, disables and exotic damage) as our area of focus when judging science ships simply because if our area of interest is healing, tanking or damage we would be more efficient in something else. Offensive science is what science ships do better then others.
That said the game should be about having fun, not necessarily efficiency. But fun is entirely subjective and will be different for every one. We can judge the ships by how fun they are, but there is a grate deal of room for disagreement on the subject of fun.
Now many ships have a grate deal of versatility. Which is fantastic. The Wells has some of the best versatility of all, as does the Vesta. Many other ships have no versatility, with no universal officer slots. So how do we judge the value of that versatility? Certainly its worth far more to some one with only one or two ships then it is to some one with many.
Now the choice to judge the ships upon their ability to inflict science upon things helps us. We can take all those universal slots and pretend that they are science and add up the abilities to see which can do the most science.
Hurrah, the Wells wins. But wait, it only wins in theory because we have to be alive to do the inflicting of science and most of the time most people don't fly with a team they can rely upon to keep them that way. Whats more the more science abilities we use the less powerful we can make each one as we have to spread our consoles and skill points further.
So I made some arbitrarily decisions.
Every ship should deduct two science slots for polarize hull (tractor beam immunity and damage resistance) and hazard emitters (hull heal and DoT removal).
Shield rebalancing is stupidly over powered as it helps you get the most from your heals and regeneration (destributes shield damage to minimize healing points lost on an already full facing) and multiplies the total number of points your enemy must blast through to touch your hull by Four.
So I deducted two slots for tactical team. The buff could be maintained for the same amount of time by using one ability slot and sacrificing two doff slots, but doff slots can be very beneficial to many science abilities so I chose against this. You may decide differantly when making your ranking.
Now with the abilities so far there is no shield heal so I deducted another slot that could be either engineering or science for this (emergency to shields or transfer shield strength) and Finally most people are going to want to use another slot on something else, either a tactical ability like high yield, an attack pattern, or an engineering ability like emergency power to engines or another emergency power to shields. So I deducted a final slot.
The total number of ability slots I therefore deducted was six. Which If you look at a range of the most competitive PVP and PVE builds, is quite representative of the norm. Though the abilities chosen are often different from my selection, (what matters is that they arn't offensive science).
Now we can judge ships with a large number of universal boff slots fairly along side those with a more ridged selection.
Certainly there is a degree of bias in my ranking. But I think I have at least presented my opinion faily among every other opinion in this thread by making my rational completely transparent.
and how exactly isn't an engi in a sci vessel superior in doing this than a sci in a sci vessel...
or how is a sci captain not capable of doing his tricks in an escort or cruiser?
the things you mentioned can be done with any class in a sci vessel, or with a sci in an escort or cruiser to even greater effect.
fact is, the captain science abilities like subnuke, or scatter field or any other, you just name it, are not emplified by a science skill,
some career specific abilities are amplified by skills... ex attack pattern alpha or sensor scan... some ships/career are better then others depending the role you want to play.
you can do hybrid , but also trade off: an eng. cpt flying escorts can survive longer than a tac captain flying escorts, but will never have the same dps of a tactical captain.... on the opposite the tactical captain will never have the healing abilities of a eng. captain.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
I'll throw a vote out there for carriers, because I don't see many people mentioning carriers. The biggest problem with "proper" science ships is that they are forced to compromise between killing stuff (weapon power) and science (aux power) constantly. People try and get creative with batteries or torpedo boats, and the Vesta takes a stab at solving that by giving you an aux-powered weapon... But they're all still compromises. Carriers solve the problem in a much more definitive way by giving you autonomous and self contained firepower so you can kill things and do science simultaneously. The Atrox certainly works well, but the Recluse is substantially better and more flexible. Highly recommended for science captains with a lot of EC to throw around.
These I have found to be the Best STF science ships in the game
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Carriers have their own compromises: Carriers give up the ability to turn, rendering many of your "aimed" science powers of considerably lesser value as they are tougher to deliver on demand. Like with anything else, there are ways to mitigate the drawbacks of these compromises, but they're still compromises.
I'll throw a vote out there for carriers, because I don't see many people mentioning carriers. The biggest problem with "proper" science ships is that they are forced to compromise between killing stuff (weapon power) and science (aux power) constantly. People try and get creative with batteries or torpedo boats, and the Vesta takes a stab at solving that by giving you an aux-powered weapon... But they're all still compromises. Carriers solve the problem in a much more definitive way by giving you autonomous and self contained firepower so you can kill things and do science simultaneously. The Atrox certainly works well, but the Recluse is substantially better and more flexible. Highly recommended for science captains with a lot of EC to throw around.
well, if you play pvp probably you do not need dps, and if you play pve a torpedo boat can be great. however using ES, EPtX chain the borg set and plasmonic leach, power is not a problem you can easly have 125 both weapon and aux power and 100+ to shield.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
some career specific abilities are amplified by skills... ex attack pattern alpha or sensor scan... some ships/career are better then others depending the role you want to play.
you can do hybrid , but also trade off: an eng. cpt flying escorts can survive longer than a tac captain flying escorts, but will never have the same dps of a tactical captain.... on the opposite the tactical captain will never have the healing abilities of a eng. captain.
yeah you know what gets buffed via starship sensors skill? the cloak detection part of the skill, not the resistance debuff part of sensor scan.
THAT is all science skills would add to science captain abilities. Same goes for fire on my mark skill of a tac captain which profits too from starship sensors, but only the cloak detection part.
i don't see what exactly can be seen as a trade off if you go escort with an engi? you trade suvivability with dps...that is a TRADE, not a trade off. a trade off would be if you gain nothing for the dps loss.
sorry, but going scince captain in science ship is a combo that yields hardly any advantage for current gameplay.
tac captain and engi captain work far better in a sci ship as it is now.
as it is now, all the non-passive science skills (by passive i mean skills like inertial dampeners, shield system, power insulators...) are so specific depending on your ship and boff layout that i try to avoid them, because once the skillpoints are spend i'm kind of obligated to use the corresponding ability all throughout the career of my captain. No matter what ship i take in the future. And imo, that sucks...
same goes for attack pattern skill, torpedo skill, threat controle and basically half of the ground skill of each captain that are tied to a specific kit, which makes changing kits sort of a "no-option"
Carriers have their own compromises: Carriers give up the ability to turn, rendering many of your "aimed" science powers of considerably lesser value as they are tougher to deliver on demand.
Which aimed science powers outweigh the mission usefulness of damage from pet spam? Serious question.
Ah ok so which faction is better sci ships... Is that what you mean ? I am trying to understand the faction thing .. I thought all factions have good ships or... which one is it
Best sci ship is the wells which is faction nuetral. Its also expensive at 600 lobi per charcter as opposed to account. Most of the experts fly Wells in PvP. Its a science vessel that can actually pack a tactical punch on top of the sci mumbo jumbo.
If your question is what faction has better access to better sci ships its Fed since they have more than one option
Best sci ship is the wells which is faction nuetral. Its also expensive at 600 lobi per charcter as opposed to account. Most of the experts fly Wells in PvP. Its a science vessel that can actually pack a tactical punch on top of the sci mumbo jumbo.
If your question is what faction has better access to better sci ships its Fed since they have more than one option
I have to agree the Wells is the best sci ship. It is the ultimate Frankenstein combination in this game which is why it's so popular.
i don't see what exactly can be seen as a trade off if you go escort with an engi? you trade suvivability with dps...that is a TRADE, not a trade off. a trade off would be if you gain nothing for the dps loss.
tradeoff is whenever you find a compromise or a balance however you can call it "trade", but the concept is that using APA a tactical captain on the same escort has much more dps of a angi... so best tact/escort or engi/escort? the answer depend on what you like/want.
sorry, but going scince captain in science ship is a combo that yields hardly any advantage for current gameplay.
tac captain and engi captain work far better in a sci ship as it is now.
your opinion...
as it is now, all the non-passive science skills (by passive i mean skills like inertial dampeners, shield system, power insulators...) are so specific depending on your ship and boff layout that i try to avoid them, because once the skillpoints are spend i'm kind of obligated to use the corresponding ability all throughout the career of my captain. No matter what ship i take in the future. And imo, that sucks...
your opinion..
I have 2 sci captaing each one flying a wells. One is for pve, It has just 1xTT and 2xTHY and only using the romulan hyperplasma torpedo can do well and fast as much as a decent tactical captain. The othe has no dps, I use it for pvp and let tell me I do not need dps or help to destroy someone who think "oh.. a sci/sci toon, what a easy opponet... my dps will destroy him in a while".
however dps is not the way of a scientis and you ... but if you play pvp you can see how much important can be a scientist flying a science ship.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
sorry, but going scince captain in science ship is a combo that yields hardly any advantage for current gameplay.
tac captain and engi captain work far better in a sci ship as it is now.
your opinion..
Its a prity good opinion though. And I certainly agree with it.
The science captain has one trait available to them that is not available to engineers or tactical captains that improves the abilities of a science ship. That is 'conservation of energy'
That trait potentially increases the damage of exotic powers by up to 30% provided the captain has been taking fire from energy weapons.
A tactical captain can exceed that bonus thanks to their captain abilities and does not have to have taken fire from energy weapons first. Further more the tactical captain's cool down reduction ability helps alleviate the worst failing of science powers, the long cool downs.
Science captains have no option to deal with this that isn't available to other captains.
Engineers also potentially benefit a science ship. One of the worst failings of science ships is the need to run aux higher then is generally required on other ships. Engineers' captain abilities help them do this and they have a trait available to them that gives them more power on the use of emergency power abilities and batteries which also helps with this.
Certainly there are ways for a science captain to work around the greater power requirements of science ships but it can not be denied that engineers have an easier time doing so.
What's more Engineers defensive abilities present the option of skimping a little more on bridge officer healing powers opening up the possibility to do more sciency things with a science ship.
The only other thing science captains have to enhance science abilities is a team buff, which they could just as easily use whilst sitting in an escort to allow their tac friend to make the powers of his science ship even better.
So as we have ascertained that science captains do not do much to enhance science ships what do science ships do to enhance science captains? They have a slightly higher innate auxiliary power level that enhances science captain abilities by a small amount and that's it.
On the other hand if I put my science captain in an escort then my AoE debuff (sensor scan) could not be accompanied by anything better then a mix of scatter volley, attack pattern beta and torpedo spread. And with rapid fire and torpedo high yield I can take the best possible advantage of the time I have to kill my opponent in PVP before he gets his buffs back after a sub nuke. If I want to keep my team in my Scattering field its easier to do in the most maneuverable escort then it is in the most maneuverable science ship and photonic fleet works the same regardless of what you fly.
The smaller innate boost to aux from an escort is no issue as science captain abilities have a long reuse timer. If I decide I want to boost them with aux I don't have to divert power from elsewhere for long or I could just use a battery, or emergency power to aux.
Now I am not saying you shouldn't fly science ships with a science captain. I do. I fly everything with a science captain. I love science. But if my goal were to get the most effect I possibly could from my science ships' abilities then science captain would be my last choice to fly it. If my goal was to get the best possible use out of my science captains abilities then an escort would be my first choice for him.
As it stands the trinity in STO, as represented by cryptic, is broken. I am sorry but the class descriptions at character creation represent cryptics intentions for the classes, not the actuality.
tradeoff is whenever you find a compromise or a balance however you can call it "trade", but the concept is that using APA a tactical captain on the same escort has much more dps of a angi... so best tact/escort or engi/escort? the answer depend on what you like/want.
your opinion...
your opinion..
I have 2 sci captaing each one flying a wells. One is for pve, It has just 1xTT and 2xTHY and only using the romulan hyperplasma torpedo can do well and fast as much as a decent tactical captain. The othe has no dps, I use it for pvp and let tell me I do not need dps or help to destroy someone who think "oh.. a sci/sci toon, what a easy opponet... my dps will destroy him in a while".
however dps is not the way of a scientis and you ... but if you play pvp you can see how much important can be a scientist flying a science ship.
yet you do not present anything to counter my "opinion", which i prefer to call my "assesment".
Your main argument against my "assesment" seems to be:"I can do stuff in my wells..."
what i tried to point out is the lack of synergy a sci captain in a sci ship has, which the 2 other classes bring to any ship class you place them in.
and that is not an opinion, that is fact.
For PvE and dps the best Fed Science ship is the tac version of the Vesta (Aventine). Anyone disputing this is being silly. The Wells just can't compete dps wise, and the main reasons are:
(1) The Aventine has 4 tac console slots to the Well's 3 tac slots.
(2) All Vestas can fit any cannon type (plus has unique access to aux cannons), while the Wells can only use beams/turrets (i.e. no cannons).
(3) All Vestas have a single hanger bay (elite pets can approx. double your damage output), while the Wells doesn't.
Best looking Fed Sci ship is the Well's hands down.
The Wells may have bested the Aventine if they had allowed it to equip cannons + gave it a 4th tac slot, due to it's speed and turn rate, but some one decided it was not to compete with the then future Vesta.
I have enough EC for a Wells and was tempted to buy it and test it out, but I know I'd be disappointed with it's dps like others who have dropped lots of EC/cash on it (after already playing the Vesta). However it may be quite fun to fly, so may buy if the price drops.
The last thing I have to say about these two ships is (in case anyone has any doubts), I routinely play fleet actions which award purple consoles for 1st + 2nd place. I usually come 1st and occasionally 2nd. On more than a few occasions I've had two players with Wells ships playing as well and I can't remember the last time I didn't come 1st . On one occasion I had three Wells playing: same result. I can't believe they all had bad builds.
The consoles that come with each ship are fun for a while, but compared with some of the passive universal consoles available they ultimately suck.
sorry, but going scince captain in science ship is a combo that yields hardly any advantage for current gameplay.
tac captain and engi captain work far better in a sci ship as it is now.
You can't possibly be serious...
Science for the win. / Czechoslovak Fleet 1st Division
well name an advantage...and i shall dismantle it infornt of your eyes.
the captain specific abilities are not buffed by any sci skill in your tree...sad but true. they are all buffed via high aux power only.
all dmg dealing powers you can use with your sci boffs have a better synergy with +%dmg skills such as AP:alpha or resistance debuffs like fire on my mark or sensor scan (that is a sci captain ability, but it is 2:1 in that department for the tac captain.
so most dmg out of a sci ship you get with a tac captain, naturaly.
most sci boff powers scale with higher aux power, which is easily provided by a engi captain, which can kkep all subsystem at high powerlevels much better than any sci captain.
and it adds a shield heal and resist which has good synergy with the high shield values of a sci ship.
and the "ohh ****" button that heals your low hull AND shield.
so there you have the synergy that makes your sci powers more powerfull (heals, CC)
what it boils down to is: you have your ship class that can be support, dmg, and tank...and you have your captain classes that can add either support, dmg, and sturdiness
if you combine support with support, you end up with something that is only viable in a highly specialised group gameplay type. Solo or in a PUG you are adding nothing and just take 5 times longer to do stuff. unfortunately in STO "to do stuff" is 99% killing things.
in my experiance, the only viable way to fly a sci in a sci ship is with a focus to "drain powers". but that is mainly for PVP, which requires a specialised grp anyway.
well name an advantage...and i shall dismantle it infornt of your eyes.
Subnucleonic Beam.
Scattering Field.
Sensor Scan.
Science Fleet.
I will take any of those over a Miracle Worker or an EPS Power Transfer any day. These make "doing stuff" very easy. I don't really need an extra super-heal or an energy burst - I barely touch RSP these days (well, in PvE that is, which is what I'm assuming you are talking about). And if you can't cast that super-heal on anyone else, it will just sit there alone and sad, without a way to contribute.
Energy - do we really need any more of it? With all those warp cores (and mind you, I'm not talking about the elite ones, even the plain blue pipe will suffice), we have more juice than ever before.
Science for the win. / Czechoslovak Fleet 1st Division
I will take any of those over a Miracle Worker or an EPS Power Transfer any day. These make "doing stuff" very easy. I don't really need an extra super-heal or an energy burst - I barely touch RSP these days (well, in PvE that is, which is what I'm assuming you are talking about). And if you can't cast that super-heal on anyone else, it will just sit there alone and sad, without a way to contribute.
Energy - do we really need any more of it? With all those warp cores (and mind you, I'm not talking about the elite ones, even the plain blue pipe will suffice), we have more juice than ever before.
ok, so you name science captain abilities to make a point for science ships...is see you grasp nothing.
you are aware that those are not having any synergy with a sci ship or sci skill?
did you even read my complete comment?
in short, what i wrote was, that science captain abilities do not interact or help (have synergys) with SCIENCE SHIPS and science boff powers, while most of the tac captain and engi captain abilities do, and do actually very well.
what i was asking you to present was some sort of synergy a sci captain would bring to a sci ship that would make those sci boff abilities better, or atleast increase the function of a sci ship. (drain more power from enemys, do more dmg with grav well for example)
example would be sensor scan with tykons rift or gravity well, but this combo is more effective when a sci captain is in an escort with ltdcmdr sci boff and can unleash dhc on all targets trapped in the rift.
i guess you will ignore each point i make again, so i'll just leave you in your little corner of complete delusion.
Susbystem power is completely fungible. Any subsystem bonuses can be effectively moved to another subsystem just by dialing down the top-end of the buffed subsystem so that warp core power is not added to the boost. +15 to AUX means 15 less warp power to AUX, means +15 power to whatever other subystem I want.
And power levels can be boosted many different ways at end-game too.
Nowadays the subystem buffs only matter while you're ranking up and scratching for every unit of power, end-game power is a flood
Some of those captain's abilities benefit from having high aux, and that synergises well with science vessels.
mhm...sensor scan and scattering field.
sensor scan has 49.2 resi debuff at 75 power and 69.3 at 130 power
scattering field has 71 resi buff at 75 and 103 at 130 power, also considering diminishing returns with this skill (if you have already high resistance rating) make this skill less effective even with high aux.
used it at 75 aux power, got 47%i (up form 19.5%) and used it at 130 and went up to 52%...5% for 55 more aux power isn't really effective anymore.
even worse in that regard in subnuke...125 power yields 70% recharge duration increase, 35 aux power = 53%
so imho only sensor scan has this synergy, but it works best with a lot of firepower, which sci vessel generally lack. except maybe wells and vesta.
I love my atrox, and I always really liked the D'kyr as a pure science and support ship. The deep space science vessel also has a nice design.
Havent tried the temporal ships, though, so they may be good as well - I do like the appearance, but I'm not fond of the poorly made bridge.
It isn't so much tha the bridge is poorly made as, well, it's just the one room. How they fit all 250 crew in there at once is beyond me. Must be a temporal thing.
the only sci ships I own are the Rhode Island, Intrepid retrofit, and the Nebula retrofit. found them very useful. I'm an engineer and I run the sci heavy Fleet Support Cruiser as a restrain and drain/ aux to batt monster and it works for me.
ok, so you name science captain abilities to make a point for science ships...is see you grasp nothing.
you are aware that those are not having any synergy with a sci ship or sci skill?
did you even read my complete comment?
in short, what i wrote was, that science captain abilities do not interact or help (have synergys) with SCIENCE SHIPS and science boff powers, while most of the tac captain and engi captain abilities do, and do actually very well.
what i was asking you to present was some sort of synergy a sci captain would bring to a sci ship that would make those sci boff abilities better, or atleast increase the function of a sci ship. (drain more power from enemys, do more dmg with grav well for example)
example would be sensor scan with tykons rift or gravity well, but this combo is more effective when a sci captain is in an escort with ltdcmdr sci boff and can unleash dhc on all targets trapped in the rift.
i guess you will ignore each point i make again, so i'll just leave you in your little corner of complete delusion.
Rofl you came here to say sci useless engineer better tac better... really ... seems like it look man like sci .. I made one already I am not deleting him because you don't like it.... its what I like I am playing the game.. Not you.. if you don't like sci don't say anything please this form was created not to fight about who's better tac engineer I don't care just want to have fun ... sheeh ><..I play games to have fun not to compete dps with others or try to prove myself seriously . I have one of each I like Varity at least some people trying to help me rofl telling me to play engineer tac sci useless not helping O_o...I don't like one track minded people who seem to be stuck on one thing and says it whack because they don't like it... People like these ruin mmos ><..
Comments
and how exactly isn't an engi in a sci vessel superior in doing this than a sci in a sci vessel...
or how is a sci captain not capable of doing his tricks in an escort or cruiser?
the things you mentioned can be done with any class in a sci vessel, or with a sci in an escort or cruiser to even greater effect.
fact is, the captain science abilities like subnuke, or scatter field or any other, you just name it, are not emplified by a science skill, while on the other hand an engi in theory adds a hell of a lot survivability (a great shieldheal), more energy, instant hull/shield heal.
already there anybody can see that this synergy works great.
Now a tac in a sci vessel may not be good if you build it as a CC vessel, because his dmg amplifiers do not work with those sci powers, but they do work with sci powers that deal dmg, and actually they work very, very well...actually too well.
the synergy a sci brings to a sci vessel is rather scarse...sensor scan, combined with TR or GW, but those work also without sensor scan good enough.
so basically a sci captain exists for his subnuke and his sensor scan and both don't need him to be in a sci vessel, not even by a long shot.
I wasn't criticising your comment. I quoted you because you provoked the question of how we define a science ship. If we don't define what a science ship is how can we judge which is best?
As you say the temporal science vessel has a more flexible boff layout and the vesta has a hanger. There are other differences too, the shield modifiers, the hull points and turn modifiers. The extra bonus that the wells get with a temporal warfair set, the advantages the Vesta gets from aux cannons etc.
My science ships include the fleet nova, the intrepid, the nebula, the Vesta the wells(with full temporal set and mobius console)and the atrox. I also have the maximum number of Boffs (54) so that I can fly these ships and my cruisers and escorts in many different configurations. I enjoy flying all these ships so how am I to judge which is the best science ship?
Now we could judge the ships based simply on their efficiency when tackling different kinds of content. But if we do that we will be judging the science ships largely upon how easy it is to configure them for DPS. What is the point of making such an assessment given that higher DPS can be achieved with both cruisers and escorts?
I also chose to rule out judging the ships in a healing role, because no matter how much you spec a ship with a commander science boff and lieutenant commander engineering boff. You will never be able to match the effectiveness of a dedicated healing ship with a commander engineering boff and a lieutenant commander science boff.
Now I'm not saying you cant support your team with healing in a science ship. You can, and you can do it very well. But you cant do it as well as you could with extend shields 3.
So that leaves offensive science abilities (which includes controls, de-buffs, disables and exotic damage) as our area of focus when judging science ships simply because if our area of interest is healing, tanking or damage we would be more efficient in something else. Offensive science is what science ships do better then others.
That said the game should be about having fun, not necessarily efficiency. But fun is entirely subjective and will be different for every one. We can judge the ships by how fun they are, but there is a grate deal of room for disagreement on the subject of fun.
Now many ships have a grate deal of versatility. Which is fantastic. The Wells has some of the best versatility of all, as does the Vesta. Many other ships have no versatility, with no universal officer slots. So how do we judge the value of that versatility? Certainly its worth far more to some one with only one or two ships then it is to some one with many.
Now the choice to judge the ships upon their ability to inflict science upon things helps us. We can take all those universal slots and pretend that they are science and add up the abilities to see which can do the most science.
Hurrah, the Wells wins. But wait, it only wins in theory because we have to be alive to do the inflicting of science and most of the time most people don't fly with a team they can rely upon to keep them that way. Whats more the more science abilities we use the less powerful we can make each one as we have to spread our consoles and skill points further.
So I made some arbitrarily decisions.
Every ship should deduct two science slots for polarize hull (tractor beam immunity and damage resistance) and hazard emitters (hull heal and DoT removal).
Shield rebalancing is stupidly over powered as it helps you get the most from your heals and regeneration (destributes shield damage to minimize healing points lost on an already full facing) and multiplies the total number of points your enemy must blast through to touch your hull by Four.
So I deducted two slots for tactical team. The buff could be maintained for the same amount of time by using one ability slot and sacrificing two doff slots, but doff slots can be very beneficial to many science abilities so I chose against this. You may decide differantly when making your ranking.
Now with the abilities so far there is no shield heal so I deducted another slot that could be either engineering or science for this (emergency to shields or transfer shield strength) and Finally most people are going to want to use another slot on something else, either a tactical ability like high yield, an attack pattern, or an engineering ability like emergency power to engines or another emergency power to shields. So I deducted a final slot.
The total number of ability slots I therefore deducted was six. Which If you look at a range of the most competitive PVP and PVE builds, is quite representative of the norm. Though the abilities chosen are often different from my selection, (what matters is that they arn't offensive science).
Now we can judge ships with a large number of universal boff slots fairly along side those with a more ridged selection.
Certainly there is a degree of bias in my ranking. But I think I have at least presented my opinion faily among every other opinion in this thread by making my rational completely transparent.
some career specific abilities are amplified by skills... ex attack pattern alpha or sensor scan... some ships/career are better then others depending the role you want to play.
you can do hybrid , but also trade off: an eng. cpt flying escorts can survive longer than a tac captain flying escorts, but will never have the same dps of a tactical captain.... on the opposite the tactical captain will never have the healing abilities of a eng. captain.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Fleet Recon
These I have found to be the Best STF science ships in the game
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
well, if you play pvp probably you do not need dps, and if you play pve a torpedo boat can be great. however using ES, EPtX chain the borg set and plasmonic leach, power is not a problem you can easly have 125 both weapon and aux power and 100+ to shield.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
yeah you know what gets buffed via starship sensors skill? the cloak detection part of the skill, not the resistance debuff part of sensor scan.
THAT is all science skills would add to science captain abilities. Same goes for fire on my mark skill of a tac captain which profits too from starship sensors, but only the cloak detection part.
i don't see what exactly can be seen as a trade off if you go escort with an engi? you trade suvivability with dps...that is a TRADE, not a trade off. a trade off would be if you gain nothing for the dps loss.
sorry, but going scince captain in science ship is a combo that yields hardly any advantage for current gameplay.
tac captain and engi captain work far better in a sci ship as it is now.
as it is now, all the non-passive science skills (by passive i mean skills like inertial dampeners, shield system, power insulators...) are so specific depending on your ship and boff layout that i try to avoid them, because once the skillpoints are spend i'm kind of obligated to use the corresponding ability all throughout the career of my captain. No matter what ship i take in the future. And imo, that sucks...
same goes for attack pattern skill, torpedo skill, threat controle and basically half of the ground skill of each captain that are tied to a specific kit, which makes changing kits sort of a "no-option"
Which aimed science powers outweigh the mission usefulness of damage from pet spam? Serious question.
Best sci ship is the wells which is faction nuetral. Its also expensive at 600 lobi per charcter as opposed to account. Most of the experts fly Wells in PvP. Its a science vessel that can actually pack a tactical punch on top of the sci mumbo jumbo.
If your question is what faction has better access to better sci ships its Fed since they have more than one option
I have to agree the Wells is the best sci ship. It is the ultimate Frankenstein combination in this game which is why it's so popular.
tradeoff is whenever you find a compromise or a balance however you can call it "trade", but the concept is that using APA a tactical captain on the same escort has much more dps of a angi... so best tact/escort or engi/escort? the answer depend on what you like/want.
your opinion...
your opinion..
I have 2 sci captaing each one flying a wells. One is for pve, It has just 1xTT and 2xTHY and only using the romulan hyperplasma torpedo can do well and fast as much as a decent tactical captain. The othe has no dps, I use it for pvp and let tell me I do not need dps or help to destroy someone who think "oh.. a sci/sci toon, what a easy opponet... my dps will destroy him in a while".
however dps is not the way of a scientis and you ... but if you play pvp you can see how much important can be a scientist flying a science ship.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Its a prity good opinion though. And I certainly agree with it.
The science captain has one trait available to them that is not available to engineers or tactical captains that improves the abilities of a science ship. That is 'conservation of energy'
That trait potentially increases the damage of exotic powers by up to 30% provided the captain has been taking fire from energy weapons.
A tactical captain can exceed that bonus thanks to their captain abilities and does not have to have taken fire from energy weapons first. Further more the tactical captain's cool down reduction ability helps alleviate the worst failing of science powers, the long cool downs.
Science captains have no option to deal with this that isn't available to other captains.
Engineers also potentially benefit a science ship. One of the worst failings of science ships is the need to run aux higher then is generally required on other ships. Engineers' captain abilities help them do this and they have a trait available to them that gives them more power on the use of emergency power abilities and batteries which also helps with this.
Certainly there are ways for a science captain to work around the greater power requirements of science ships but it can not be denied that engineers have an easier time doing so.
What's more Engineers defensive abilities present the option of skimping a little more on bridge officer healing powers opening up the possibility to do more sciency things with a science ship.
The only other thing science captains have to enhance science abilities is a team buff, which they could just as easily use whilst sitting in an escort to allow their tac friend to make the powers of his science ship even better.
So as we have ascertained that science captains do not do much to enhance science ships what do science ships do to enhance science captains? They have a slightly higher innate auxiliary power level that enhances science captain abilities by a small amount and that's it.
On the other hand if I put my science captain in an escort then my AoE debuff (sensor scan) could not be accompanied by anything better then a mix of scatter volley, attack pattern beta and torpedo spread. And with rapid fire and torpedo high yield I can take the best possible advantage of the time I have to kill my opponent in PVP before he gets his buffs back after a sub nuke. If I want to keep my team in my Scattering field its easier to do in the most maneuverable escort then it is in the most maneuverable science ship and photonic fleet works the same regardless of what you fly.
The smaller innate boost to aux from an escort is no issue as science captain abilities have a long reuse timer. If I decide I want to boost them with aux I don't have to divert power from elsewhere for long or I could just use a battery, or emergency power to aux.
Now I am not saying you shouldn't fly science ships with a science captain. I do. I fly everything with a science captain. I love science. But if my goal were to get the most effect I possibly could from my science ships' abilities then science captain would be my last choice to fly it. If my goal was to get the best possible use out of my science captains abilities then an escort would be my first choice for him.
As it stands the trinity in STO, as represented by cryptic, is broken. I am sorry but the class descriptions at character creation represent cryptics intentions for the classes, not the actuality.
Rofl I don't have enough ec for the well..
yet you do not present anything to counter my "opinion", which i prefer to call my "assesment".
Your main argument against my "assesment" seems to be:"I can do stuff in my wells..."
what i tried to point out is the lack of synergy a sci captain in a sci ship has, which the 2 other classes bring to any ship class you place them in.
and that is not an opinion, that is fact.
(1) The Aventine has 4 tac console slots to the Well's 3 tac slots.
(2) All Vestas can fit any cannon type (plus has unique access to aux cannons), while the Wells can only use beams/turrets (i.e. no cannons).
(3) All Vestas have a single hanger bay (elite pets can approx. double your damage output), while the Wells doesn't.
Best looking Fed Sci ship is the Well's hands down.
The Wells may have bested the Aventine if they had allowed it to equip cannons + gave it a 4th tac slot, due to it's speed and turn rate, but some one decided it was not to compete with the then future Vesta.
I have enough EC for a Wells and was tempted to buy it and test it out, but I know I'd be disappointed with it's dps like others who have dropped lots of EC/cash on it (after already playing the Vesta). However it may be quite fun to fly, so may buy if the price drops.
The last thing I have to say about these two ships is (in case anyone has any doubts), I routinely play fleet actions which award purple consoles for 1st + 2nd place. I usually come 1st and occasionally 2nd. On more than a few occasions I've had two players with Wells ships playing as well and I can't remember the last time I didn't come 1st . On one occasion I had three Wells playing: same result. I can't believe they all had bad builds.
The consoles that come with each ship are fun for a while, but compared with some of the passive universal consoles available they ultimately suck.
You can't possibly be serious...
well name an advantage...and i shall dismantle it infornt of your eyes.
the captain specific abilities are not buffed by any sci skill in your tree...sad but true. they are all buffed via high aux power only.
all dmg dealing powers you can use with your sci boffs have a better synergy with +%dmg skills such as AP:alpha or resistance debuffs like fire on my mark or sensor scan (that is a sci captain ability, but it is 2:1 in that department for the tac captain.
so most dmg out of a sci ship you get with a tac captain, naturaly.
most sci boff powers scale with higher aux power, which is easily provided by a engi captain, which can kkep all subsystem at high powerlevels much better than any sci captain.
and it adds a shield heal and resist which has good synergy with the high shield values of a sci ship.
and the "ohh ****" button that heals your low hull AND shield.
so there you have the synergy that makes your sci powers more powerfull (heals, CC)
what it boils down to is: you have your ship class that can be support, dmg, and tank...and you have your captain classes that can add either support, dmg, and sturdiness
if you combine support with support, you end up with something that is only viable in a highly specialised group gameplay type. Solo or in a PUG you are adding nothing and just take 5 times longer to do stuff. unfortunately in STO "to do stuff" is 99% killing things.
in my experiance, the only viable way to fly a sci in a sci ship is with a focus to "drain powers". but that is mainly for PVP, which requires a specialised grp anyway.
Subnucleonic Beam.
Scattering Field.
Sensor Scan.
Science Fleet.
I will take any of those over a Miracle Worker or an EPS Power Transfer any day. These make "doing stuff" very easy. I don't really need an extra super-heal or an energy burst - I barely touch RSP these days (well, in PvE that is, which is what I'm assuming you are talking about). And if you can't cast that super-heal on anyone else, it will just sit there alone and sad, without a way to contribute.
Energy - do we really need any more of it? With all those warp cores (and mind you, I'm not talking about the elite ones, even the plain blue pipe will suffice), we have more juice than ever before.
ok, so you name science captain abilities to make a point for science ships...is see you grasp nothing.
you are aware that those are not having any synergy with a sci ship or sci skill?
did you even read my complete comment?
in short, what i wrote was, that science captain abilities do not interact or help (have synergys) with SCIENCE SHIPS and science boff powers, while most of the tac captain and engi captain abilities do, and do actually very well.
what i was asking you to present was some sort of synergy a sci captain would bring to a sci ship that would make those sci boff abilities better, or atleast increase the function of a sci ship. (drain more power from enemys, do more dmg with grav well for example)
example would be sensor scan with tykons rift or gravity well, but this combo is more effective when a sci captain is in an escort with ltdcmdr sci boff and can unleash dhc on all targets trapped in the rift.
i guess you will ignore each point i make again, so i'll just leave you in your little corner of complete delusion.
And power levels can be boosted many different ways at end-game too.
Nowadays the subystem buffs only matter while you're ranking up and scratching for every unit of power, end-game power is a flood
mhm...sensor scan and scattering field.
sensor scan has 49.2 resi debuff at 75 power and 69.3 at 130 power
scattering field has 71 resi buff at 75 and 103 at 130 power, also considering diminishing returns with this skill (if you have already high resistance rating) make this skill less effective even with high aux.
used it at 75 aux power, got 47%i (up form 19.5%) and used it at 130 and went up to 52%...5% for 55 more aux power isn't really effective anymore.
even worse in that regard in subnuke...125 power yields 70% recharge duration increase, 35 aux power = 53%
so imho only sensor scan has this synergy, but it works best with a lot of firepower, which sci vessel generally lack. except maybe wells and vesta.
Havent tried the temporal ships, though, so they may be good as well - I do like the appearance, but I'm not fond of the poorly made bridge.
It isn't so much tha the bridge is poorly made as, well, it's just the one room. How they fit all 250 crew in there at once is beyond me. Must be a temporal thing.
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Rofl you came here to say sci useless engineer better tac better... really ... seems like it look man like sci .. I made one already I am not deleting him because you don't like it.... its what I like I am playing the game.. Not you.. if you don't like sci don't say anything please this form was created not to fight about who's better tac engineer I don't care just want to have fun ... sheeh ><..I play games to have fun not to compete dps with others or try to prove myself seriously . I have one of each I like Varity at least some people trying to help me rofl telling me to play engineer tac sci useless not helping O_o...I don't like one track minded people who seem to be stuck on one thing and says it whack because they don't like it... People like these ruin mmos ><..