A single premade in the Q can shut it down for hours. PVP has been made so unpopular by their unsportsman like tactics that the numbers are just too low. The only fix for this is a ranking/ladder system since we can not expect the premades to pull their punches on the new guys. With a ranking system you will see interest in pvp increase due to the new players feeling that they can enter the match and face other players of their skill level and not face the premades for what will turn into a spawn hunt/camping scenario.
A single premade in the Q can shut it down for hours. PVP has been made so unpopular by their unsportsman like tactics that the numbers are just too low. The only fix for this is a ranking/ladder system since we can not expect the premades to pull their punches on the new guys. With a ranking system you will see interest in pvp increase due to the new players feeling that they can enter the match and face other players of their skill level and not face the premades for what will turn into a spawn hunt/camping scenario.
Tell you what.
Find 4 players to play with on a regular basis. Decide to practice on nearly a daily basis in order to get better. Try and find other fleets at roughly your skill level to fight in private matches.
Then come on here and moan when you can't find any fleets in your skill level/on at your timezone/have enough players/actually want to fight you.
Better the devils you know.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] @Aquitaine985 Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre. 2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
The OP is spot on, no one should need to join a PVP fleet and pre-arrange a match at a specific time to enjoy the type of pvp many mmo's take for granted.
Yes, the dev's suck, but a few of you really need to take your heads out of your asses.
Yes, the premades are a serious problem for new players. If we had larger scale pvp such as WOW it would not be so bad, but since we have small matches in which a single premade can shatter the group and hunt the scattered players for the rest of the kill counter there is a problem with people trying pvp, becoming discouraged, and never playing again. We need a way to ease a player into it. You can not advance in skill as it sits right now unless you join the premades because your pug team will get rolled on, and that is not always an option. The PVP community is crushing PVP with their lack of sportsmanship. We need a system in place to prevent further decay of moral for pvp by the majority of the community.
Your signature says only the strong survive...you need to change it or quit complaining about people working together aka premade
If Cryptic decides to implement a ranking system, they would be stupid not to include Hilbert in the process. His system would be spot on if the combat log gave a more detailed report, and what he's accomplished with the meager information he's given is quite impressive.
A single premade in the Q can shut it down for hours. PVP has been made so unpopular by their unsportsman like tactics that the numbers are just too low. The only fix for this is a ranking/ladder system since we can not expect the premades to pull their punches on the new guys. With a ranking system you will see interest in pvp increase due to the new players feeling that they can enter the match and face other players of their skill level and not face the premades for what will turn into a spawn hunt/camping scenario.
It is not the only solution and frankly its a bad solution. So there are 10 people in the que for 4 hours... how does a ladder system help that again ?
The only solution is to remove the idea of "team" queing.
Create a background stat tracker... using formulas similer to Mancoms leaderboard math.
Use it to auto balance every game behind the scenes.
Quing as a group gets you into the same map but not the same team.
People that still want to to form 5 mans to fight other 5 mans have no issue as they still have the challange option.
I often wonder how many people who are active on the forum are even active on the game anymore. I use the forum to encourage growth while most seem to use is to discourage any kind of action. Be positive people. Instead of saying "Oh, they won't do anything... bla, bla, bla... doom, doom, doom..." try throwing some ideas into the pot. If an idea is popular enough and generates enough positive feed back it may come to life, but from what I can see positive feedback is a concept alien to most forum users. Once upon a time people knew how to communicate in ways that where helpful.
I'm very active in the game. I typically post here during my downtime, when I'm browsing the exchange or waiting for the cooldown timers to finish on my PvE queues. I enjoy the game, I continue to play it.
You say we're negative, I say we're just being realistic. And people who have a firm grip on reality are in short supply on the STO forums.
I'm not saying don't give ideas. I'm saying that your ideas have already been given multiple times over the past few years, and we're pointing out reality-based facts as to why they haven't been implemented.
It's true there's a lot of negativity on the forums, and at first I'd have gone as far as to say most of it was unjustified. But we're nearing 4 years now and there's still more of the same in particular areas. PvP is one of them.
The time for optimism is over in regards to PvP, unless Cryptic throws us a curveball and has something waiting in the wings that will revitalize PvP that they aren't telling us about.
Cryptic has been fairly transparent enough, however -- to know the odds of that are extremely unlikely.
yesterday from 10 matches 9 were premade groups .Even if I set as a rule "warp out when premades want to stomp pugs" no longer works because I cant get my daily dili and fm.You still need 3 matches for the daily.
EDIT : add another 5 today.Not going to waste my time trying another 5 times ,I'm going to play watch a movie tonight
then get your own premade and give a good thrashing. nothing is stopping you from doing it too ya know. why should the premades be the only ones to give ground on the issue?
A single premade in the Q can shut it down for hours. PVP has been made so unpopular by their unsportsman like tactics that the numbers are just too low. The only fix for this is a ranking/ladder system since we can not expect the premades to pull their punches on the new guys. With a ranking system you will see interest in pvp increase due to the new players feeling that they can enter the match and face other players of their skill level and not face the premades for what will turn into a spawn hunt/camping scenario.
so youre telling me that 5 guys can shut the games pvp down for hours and hours? shouldnt that say more about the state of the pvp game itself rather then the fact theyre a premade?
is team work unsportsman like? cuz it seems that aside from that, they can use anything you could use if you wanted to.
a ranking system would probably help a little, but cryptic has all but burned the bridges to pvp in this game. and i doubt theyll ever do anything to rebuild it. too much resources for too little gain.
so yeah back to the skill thing... yes, ranking based on skill would be awesome, but i dont think they can do that with the current system either because... what is "skill"?
The OP is spot on, no one should need to join a PVP fleet and pre-arrange a match at a specific time to enjoy the type of pvp many mmo's take for granted.
you cant hear it but i'm choking on irony int his statement.
so you dont think its fair that the single player needs to join a pvp fleet, doesnt need to pre arrange a match to enjoy the game.....
yet this is what the evil premades are being told to do? to "get out of the ques and take their gaming to the private matches"?
Yes Mai ... premades in the ques are unsportsman like. I'll say it even though I used to be as guilty as anyone.
Go make your own team is a TRIBBLE answer, and if you don't know that there is no hope for you.
This is a pretty casual game and people would love the option to be able to que up and have mostly half decent matches. Problem is that doesn't happen EVER. Really I am sure you have tried to pug at least once in your life in STO.
There is zero challange in having a team in the que vs 99% of the players that que up. (half of whom are really there just to get there D reward)
We need to have the idea of quing as a team removed from the public ques. Cryptic should have changed it in the same patch they added the challenge option in 3 years ago. The que shouldn't be a place for premades to hang out with there friends and "practice" (read pretend they don't suck).
I used to tow the pvp party line... and say things like "get a team then". Frankly its why we have no one to play against any more. This game community which likes to pat itself on the back so much is honestly pretty horrid at times. (Still overall its all Cryptics fault no doubt). 90% of the games fleets won't fight each other because they have to hire a legal team to draw up the contract.
Its time for the QUE system to get a TD overhaul... until that happens its time for This games long time PvP Fleet Premade Vet Player... what ever you want to call yourselves. To stand up and say hell no I won't que up... instead I will form matches in Tyler Durden. I will enjoy matches with my old and new friends... and that doesn't mean just beating on pathetic kids from the Lets loose fast for free D channel that are running there own kinda premades.
Seriously if you are reading this and you have a premade team... STOP QUEING.
Start Forming matches in TD... Enjoy pvp again. Spread the word to every new and old player you know or run into.
then get your own premade and give a good thrashing. nothing is stopping you from doing it too ya know. why should the premades be the only ones to give ground on the issue?
I see you know who I know and people I play the game with.Thats some awesome trait...you could use it at robbing banks.
reality check :
what if you don't have people for a premade?
what if you play the game game at 3AM and you can't scream "rsp is out" when everyone is sleeping.
What if you play the game when you barely get a arena match started ?
What if you don't want to be in a pvp fleet to have fleet pvp between the people in the same fleet?
btw I never complained about premades as in "I quit " like other people do.They go in and I go out ...each has its own rules .If you are in a premade and you don't like people warping out you could find yourself another 5 people in a premade group if not bad luck .
If only there was an option for random teaming. Say it would allow fed and kdf mixed teams and no groups could join.
That is exactly what we do in the Tyler Durden channel... we fight we leave our fleets at home... and we shoot with and at friends.
We have been using a tool created for us by Mancom which uses his leader board data to auto balance us a team. (after the first round we spin the teams our selves to make things even more balanced)
Cryptic could easily (if there code isn't a Fing mess) change the Que to bring teamed players into the same match (but not always the same team if the balance calls for it)... then use some internal data (no need to post leader anythings to drive new people away)... to auto balance the teams in a real way.
Seriously Mancom is fantastic and he did the core of his work in a week.... I have no doubt Cryptic could do it with 2 guys in 2 weeks anyway.
Premades can still challange match each other all day long... but the ques should be all TD style ALL THE TIME.
btw I never complained about premades as in "I quit " like other people do.They go in and I go out ...each has its own rules .If you are in a premade and you don't like people warping out you could find yourself another 5 people in a premade group if not bad luck .
That is the part that drives me nuts... 90% of the time when premades are stomping the ques. There are other premades hanging out.... they all end up quing up trying to catch each other in the que so they don't have to worry about rules ect. There are lots of reasons I'm sure... but all that ends up happening is we poison our own pvp.
I don't know it is about time CRYPTIC fixes it in a real way....
The idea of turning the Ques into an automated Tyler Durden Channel is very doable and very little time would be needed.
You could even have both in the same queue system: Have a "queue teamed" and "queue mixed" button when you are teamed.
In the first case you stay teamed and only get a match if the game can find enough other players (alone, partial teams or a full team) to start a match with a sensible imbalance score. This means that it should remain fairly easy to keep queueing as a team of two, but queueing with a very good team of five could take quite some time.
In the other case your team only gets into the same match but not necessarily on the same side, as Husanak suggested, and the match will be balanced as good as possible according to the general imbalance algorithm.
By dynamically feeding both queues from the same pool according to a matchmaking algorithm, it should be possible to preserve most advantages of both the current and the "pure pug queue" approach while eliminating the worst "full super premade against a noob and 4 afkers" cases.
What if there where 2 options in which teams could only Q for a ranked match and to play an unranked match you must Q for a random team. You could still arrange private matches of course.
I used to tow the pvp party line... and say things like "get a team then". Frankly its why we have no one to play against any more.
[snip]
Its time for the QUE system to get a TD overhaul...
I have been saying this for 3 years now. Been mocked and laughed at for even suggesting it for all 3 years of that time as well... either in forums or private chat. Premades have been largely responsible for destroying the game they love and pushing people out of what could have been something great. Back to the days when TSI ( had a different name then ) would use the broken Target Subsystems builds to permanently remove shields from every player on the other side.. to any other FOTM build that would demolish 5 random people just queuing up to have an honest match for fun... this is the creation of those desperate to be "number 1" at any and all cost. Enjoy.
Now if we can just get the community to find a meaningful set of suggestions for engineer changes that would bring them back into balance for pvp.. maybe we can have a 3 captain class game again... but let's be honest, no changes are coming and the community wants it that way, as a whole.
Again....Enjoy.
Eleven of Twenty-Nine. Thousands of pvp matches done...hundreds of tournaments ran..and still seeing the same problems grow even larger than ever for us engineers.
They would not have any idea of how to do this correctly. The game is based around DPS and Heals (which should only count as a score when used on others)
Effects and other useful things have 0 value in their scoring systems and they don't even have the foggiest on how to rate them
no scoring/rating system will be of any value until these have comparative point values.
Eleven of Twenty-Nine. Thousands of pvp matches done...hundreds of tournaments ran..and still seeing the same problems grow even larger than ever for us engineers.
Ranking systems, and or tiered PvP will destroy the games PvP.
Its pretty simple really... this game doesn't have the population for that type of system. I know you say but if you build it they will come... but they won't... at least not 24/7. Like every other MMO that has tiered PvP.... for 2-3 peak hours on a Saturday it will work just fine. For every other hour of every other day of the weak the population will be to low... and either the que system will have to mis match people anyway. (and give people a huge reason to QQ) or not start matches at all (again massive reason to QQ).
Let me tell you what the real solution is.
Join Tyler Durden Chat channel for now... everyone is welcome. New Old Vet Good bad Ugly. We don't mind new people coming, we don't turn away vets that drive people nuts. We auto balance every challange match ourselves... and in general we have great epic close matches.
We have also been using Mancoms fantastic leaderboard system to as quickly as possible setup matches. He was nice enough to create for us a basic team creator that uses his leaderboard data base to come up with a balanced setup.
Long term the fix on Cryptics end... is to add to the game itself a return of basic data out of everyones log to there own server. They don't even have to create a leaderboard... which will just get gamed by the games D Bag portion of the population... however in the back ground that data could be used to do the same thing Mancoms teaming tool does for us... it could balance the teams. So both sides end up with as equal as possible in terms of healing / DMG / Debuffing / and the talent (as well as it can be measured).
Cryptic should honestly sit down with Mancom and pick his brain for a few hours. With in a weak they could fix the ques. These are the steps I would take to do that if it was my game;
1) Change what it means to Que as a team in the games public que. (there is a challange system where people can que as a full 5 mans to fight other 5 mans) When I say change it I say queing as a team means you get in the same map, not the same team per say.
2) Start collecting basic information needed to assign every player a number in the factors that can be used to achieve team balance. (talk to Mancom about it he has the experience with what works)
3) Add a team balancing tool to the ques. So that when people que up the system understands how to spin every single match to ensure the games are as good as they can be.
Tyler Durden is: an OPVP Alt channel. NO one in your channel isnt in OPVP, so it really is quite redundant.
As well, the name of the channel couldnt possibly be more vague, and makes it look like some OPVP in-joke. Its been up for months now, and nothing. Surprise Attack does more for pvp then this useless channel does.
Solution? Name the channel something that people can read hear, see, that makes them think: This is where PVP happens. - Because as it stands, assuming that anyone can make the correlation at all, Tyler Durden just tells them ' this is the secret place where the really good people pvp'ers play. they dont even want 'pvp' in the title of the room because they dont want scrubs there'.
But would that even work? OPVP has a reasonable name, and a decent population, but it isnt moderated at all, and its almost always out of control.
But Why PVP? so you can get into a match against scrubs who got the line on the latest Zombie builds, or FBP builds that would allow them to survive and maybe even get a kill or two without acually having any skill? just fly around in a circle and wait for their fbp/rsp timers to come up with no strategy or guile involved. STO pvp doesent even require a moniter anymore, it can be done with AHK.
Save PVP? - Its already screwed. No other game on this planet has mechanics as BS as Feedback Pulse that punish people so severely for *gasp* attacking another player. there is no cannonical reason for FBP to be so powerful either. Its scaled to be useful in PVE so as a result of that, its completely overpowered in PVP.
Everyone should use FBP. EVERYONE. No acceptions: then we can just line up and hurl insults at eachother and call that PVP cuz no one dares fire at anyone on penalty of death. Its like Reverse PVP, if that even makes sense.
The first rule about STO pvp is that you do not shoot at another player.
The second rule is that you do not shoot at another player.
Thats pretty much it. Shooting at another player = you take damage, exponentially proportionate to the damage you deal to them. This makes no sense whatsoever, but it is what it is. STO pvp. complete and utter rubbish.
If in fact we don't have the population to justify a ranking system than we need a random game mode and team button. It would be a 3rd option in which you where assigned to a random game mode on a random team. It could mix fed and kdf players on teams as well.
Save PVP? - Its already screwed. No other game on this planet has mechanics as BS as Feedback Pulse that punish people so severely for *gasp* attacking another player. there is no cannonical reason for FBP to be so powerful either. Its scaled to be useful in PVE so as a result of that, its completely overpowered in PVP.
Everyone should use FBP. EVERYONE. No acceptions: then we can just line up and hurl insults at eachother and call that PVP cuz no one dares fire at anyone on penalty of death. Its like Reverse PVP, if that even makes sense.
The first rule about STO pvp is that you do not shoot at another player.
The second rule is that you do not shoot at another player.
Thats pretty much it. Shooting at another player = you take damage, exponentially proportionate to the damage you deal to them. This makes no sense whatsoever, but it is what it is. STO pvp. complete and utter rubbish.
*APPLAUSE* Best thing I read all day.
So much truth here. SOOOO MUCH TRUTH!!!
Eleven of Twenty-Nine. Thousands of pvp matches done...hundreds of tournaments ran..and still seeing the same problems grow even larger than ever for us engineers.
I've been playing STO since Beta. I play with a group of guys in my fleet who are put off by PvP in this game, because of premades, despite having multiple top end Fleet ships. I was a hardcore PvPer before being deployed, and came back to see it in the same static state of development(on the surface).
In STO, there needs to be a way to sway the PvE players to PvP. Way back in the "Vanilla" days of a certain other MMO, they drew in the PvE masses by combining the content of PvE and PvP (Alterac Valley anyone?) which boasted some of the most epic PVP battles still talked about to this day, some lasting days, all dropping rewards from players, PvE NPCs, PvE and PVP content inside the battle zone, and reputation based progress and gear. Kerrat comes closest to that in this game, but not very. The future 'Dyson Sphere' content seems headed in this direction, so we actually need to be patient. With that said, I would like to add 5 cents (or fire) to this debate.
1.Team que's in PvP need to go away for awhile, period, to draw in casual gamers, especially when there is a TEAM option available to the premade community that is already in mass use according to all the previous posts. We want PvP casuals and curious to help rebuild the hardcore base. We will need some PvE players who are put off by PvP in its current state.
2. Combine PvP and PvE content in select zones, introducing existing and different PvP play styles (CTF, Free for All, Capture and Hold, Team deathmatch, etc.) all containing PvE content for your opposition to contend with as well as their PvE enemies.
Add in PvP/PvE gear with its own reputation, space/ground sets, powers, and 'marks' tied to each as needed for "grind" balancing, and with participation based rewards (DMG/Healing dealt) to avoid AFKers. The PvP gear needs to be separate from the PvE gear, with specific bonuses tied to PVP/PvE. With the combined "battlegrounds" containing both PvP and PvE content, the user has to decide which content in a specific "battleground" you want to be more prepared for. This will also produce varying builds on each ship type, and more hybrid builds instead of the cookie cutting we see a lot of now. For Cryptic, you know they will add more C-store content.
2. Adjust leveling xp. With PvP added to PvE, you'll have more participation from the curious than you have now. Leveling a ship captain should take a little longer than it does now to get to 50, so people don't immediately head for the PvP grinds.
3. Increase the number of participants from each side per match, per match type. STO Battles should feel epic, all the time in STO. Before they "nerfed" the elite Crystalline Entity, the Tholian Mirror ships spawning and creating a mess of everything was fun to me. The 'people' (under geared), cried and refused to adapt, instead of choosing a lighter difficulty level. Add in AFK debuff timers. The LEET individual PvPers will quickly forge to the front and be identified, as is their desire, without being OP because they will need to rely on PUGs or the sheer numbers will overwhelm him/her every time. This also helps teach PUGs on adopted tactics and communication. 1v3 wins may still be possible but not a regular occurrence. If 1v3 wins don't earn your name, then.....
4. ....A tiered INDIVIDUAL ranking system, helps not only gauge community interest and participation, but also a valuable tool for determining the likes and dislikes of the community, without having Devs visit the QQ forums and get bashed as regularly, or whenever a PvP Dev is put in place for us to interface with again. New content can be tailored to the most popular game modes, and less popular modes are easily identified and upgraded or removed.
5.Tiered PvP content after lv 10 (11-19, 20-29, 30-39, 40-49, 50+) for EACH match type, granting experience and minimizing "twinking" at each stage, while allowing people to familiarize themselves while leveling to the performance level of different ships in different situations. This tiering would only happen as "Battleground" participation ramps up over time, and would almost certainly require a lvl cap boost of at least 5, to make rewards.
If any of the above sounds familiar to any of you, then you've played one of a few successful MMOs that implemented PvP successfully, balancing issues aside, the interest is there and thriving after 9 years.
In order to really bring PvP where we want it, fully populated, fully engaging, rewarding, fun, and communal, concessions will have to be made in the community, overhaul style or we will continue to look like certain US Politicians in our non-profiting PvP stances.
You can throw my 5 pennies at them if you wish.
I totally understand how you feel. Once upon a time I was in those pug crushing premades. I saw first hand how we could kill the Q after a few matches. The new/casual players must be kept away from the unsportsman-like premades.
You need to stop promoting this Tyler Durden fantasy pvp project of yours and realize it for what it is: an OPVP Alt channel. NO one in your channel isnt in OPVP, so it really is quite redundant.
You have made the mistake of thinking it was created to chat in... which it was not. It was created to setup matches in which is exactly what happens.
Opvp is fantastic and all but yes its creator who is long gone and not any of the people people assume him to be... created opvp for the same reason. With the lack of a Cryptic PvP channel it turned into the defacto place to TALK about pvp. Which is fine, I like Opvp.
Opvp 3500 or so members at least half of which no longer play the game
Tyler Durden 350 members all of whom still play the game.
Join for a night of PvP at some point instead of just assuming you know something about something you have not experienced.
BTW Minis SAttack channel was a good idea... but ya he runs matches in TD now.
As for the name bothering you I don't really much care about that. The name is popular... people in general get the idea when they think about the reference and for the most part people have left there inter fleet wars out of the channel. Its not about excluding anyone. With only 3500 people in Opvp and at least half of them inactive how much do you think random people are stumbling into Opvp ? Frankly had I called it something that included the letters PvP at the end... people like you would have jumped all over me for trying to kill opvp. lol
My personal love these days is premades running so much cheese that if you bring any chips into the room they will be instantly nachos.
I love the mega-super-nuclear alpha strikes that romulans get.. you know.. the ones where they come out and do 70k + damage drop you and another person before you can press a button.
And don't forget the new "balanced" weapons.. the ones that ignore shields. Nothing says "cool" like being utterly destroyed in pvp with full shields. I mean.. great move Cryptic. That reminds me of how in Champions Online, you listened to the whiny pvp'ers who complained about tankers.. so you made a block counter that counters blocking before they can/or are using block so that they can never use block again.
Basically removing a mechanic from the game forever, effectively. Same goes here.
So, now that you have upped DPS burst for tacs so high that they can 1 shot God and removed a key part of defense, I was wondering if you "geniuses" at Cryptic can explain to us how this will help the PvP community grow.
Please,.. guide us with your divine wisdom, oh makers of broken-as-TRIBBLE games
Love, bite me.
Eleven of Twenty-Nine. Thousands of pvp matches done...hundreds of tournaments ran..and still seeing the same problems grow even larger than ever for us engineers.
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Tell you what.
Find 4 players to play with on a regular basis. Decide to practice on nearly a daily basis in order to get better. Try and find other fleets at roughly your skill level to fight in private matches.
Then come on here and moan when you can't find any fleets in your skill level/on at your timezone/have enough players/actually want to fight you.
Better the devils you know.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Yes, the dev's suck, but a few of you really need to take your heads out of your asses.
Your signature says only the strong survive...you need to change it or quit complaining about people working together aka premade
It is not the only solution and frankly its a bad solution. So there are 10 people in the que for 4 hours... how does a ladder system help that again ?
The only solution is to remove the idea of "team" queing.
Create a background stat tracker... using formulas similer to Mancoms leaderboard math.
Use it to auto balance every game behind the scenes.
Quing as a group gets you into the same map but not the same team.
People that still want to to form 5 mans to fight other 5 mans have no issue as they still have the challange option.
I'm very active in the game. I typically post here during my downtime, when I'm browsing the exchange or waiting for the cooldown timers to finish on my PvE queues. I enjoy the game, I continue to play it.
You say we're negative, I say we're just being realistic. And people who have a firm grip on reality are in short supply on the STO forums.
I'm not saying don't give ideas. I'm saying that your ideas have already been given multiple times over the past few years, and we're pointing out reality-based facts as to why they haven't been implemented.
It's true there's a lot of negativity on the forums, and at first I'd have gone as far as to say most of it was unjustified. But we're nearing 4 years now and there's still more of the same in particular areas. PvP is one of them.
The time for optimism is over in regards to PvP, unless Cryptic throws us a curveball and has something waiting in the wings that will revitalize PvP that they aren't telling us about.
Cryptic has been fairly transparent enough, however -- to know the odds of that are extremely unlikely.
then get your own premade and give a good thrashing. nothing is stopping you from doing it too ya know. why should the premades be the only ones to give ground on the issue?
so youre telling me that 5 guys can shut the games pvp down for hours and hours? shouldnt that say more about the state of the pvp game itself rather then the fact theyre a premade?
is team work unsportsman like? cuz it seems that aside from that, they can use anything you could use if you wanted to.
a ranking system would probably help a little, but cryptic has all but burned the bridges to pvp in this game. and i doubt theyll ever do anything to rebuild it. too much resources for too little gain.
so yeah back to the skill thing... yes, ranking based on skill would be awesome, but i dont think they can do that with the current system either because... what is "skill"?
you cant hear it but i'm choking on irony int his statement.
so you dont think its fair that the single player needs to join a pvp fleet, doesnt need to pre arrange a match to enjoy the game.....
yet this is what the evil premades are being told to do? to "get out of the ques and take their gaming to the private matches"?
seriously?
no really... seriously?
im dying over here send help!
Do you even Science Bro?
Go make your own team is a TRIBBLE answer, and if you don't know that there is no hope for you.
This is a pretty casual game and people would love the option to be able to que up and have mostly half decent matches. Problem is that doesn't happen EVER. Really I am sure you have tried to pug at least once in your life in STO.
There is zero challange in having a team in the que vs 99% of the players that que up. (half of whom are really there just to get there D reward)
We need to have the idea of quing as a team removed from the public ques. Cryptic should have changed it in the same patch they added the challenge option in 3 years ago. The que shouldn't be a place for premades to hang out with there friends and "practice" (read pretend they don't suck).
I used to tow the pvp party line... and say things like "get a team then". Frankly its why we have no one to play against any more. This game community which likes to pat itself on the back so much is honestly pretty horrid at times. (Still overall its all Cryptics fault no doubt). 90% of the games fleets won't fight each other because they have to hire a legal team to draw up the contract.
Its time for the QUE system to get a TD overhaul... until that happens its time for This games long time PvP Fleet Premade Vet Player... what ever you want to call yourselves. To stand up and say hell no I won't que up... instead I will form matches in Tyler Durden. I will enjoy matches with my old and new friends... and that doesn't mean just beating on pathetic kids from the Lets loose fast for free D channel that are running there own kinda premades.
Seriously if you are reading this and you have a premade team... STOP QUEING.
Start Forming matches in TD... Enjoy pvp again. Spread the word to every new and old player you know or run into.
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I see you know who I know and people I play the game with.Thats some awesome trait...you could use it at robbing banks.
reality check :
what if you don't have people for a premade?
what if you play the game game at 3AM and you can't scream "rsp is out" when everyone is sleeping.
What if you play the game when you barely get a arena match started ?
What if you don't want to be in a pvp fleet to have fleet pvp between the people in the same fleet?
btw I never complained about premades as in "I quit " like other people do.They go in and I go out ...each has its own rules .If you are in a premade and you don't like people warping out you could find yourself another 5 people in a premade group if not bad luck .
That is exactly what we do in the Tyler Durden channel... we fight we leave our fleets at home... and we shoot with and at friends.
We have been using a tool created for us by Mancom which uses his leader board data to auto balance us a team. (after the first round we spin the teams our selves to make things even more balanced)
Cryptic could easily (if there code isn't a Fing mess) change the Que to bring teamed players into the same match (but not always the same team if the balance calls for it)... then use some internal data (no need to post leader anythings to drive new people away)... to auto balance the teams in a real way.
Seriously Mancom is fantastic and he did the core of his work in a week.... I have no doubt Cryptic could do it with 2 guys in 2 weeks anyway.
Premades can still challange match each other all day long... but the ques should be all TD style ALL THE TIME.
That is the part that drives me nuts... 90% of the time when premades are stomping the ques. There are other premades hanging out.... they all end up quing up trying to catch each other in the que so they don't have to worry about rules ect. There are lots of reasons I'm sure... but all that ends up happening is we poison our own pvp.
I don't know it is about time CRYPTIC fixes it in a real way....
The idea of turning the Ques into an automated Tyler Durden Channel is very doable and very little time would be needed.
They can look at balance after that.
In the first case you stay teamed and only get a match if the game can find enough other players (alone, partial teams or a full team) to start a match with a sensible imbalance score. This means that it should remain fairly easy to keep queueing as a team of two, but queueing with a very good team of five could take quite some time.
In the other case your team only gets into the same match but not necessarily on the same side, as Husanak suggested, and the match will be balanced as good as possible according to the general imbalance algorithm.
By dynamically feeding both queues from the same pool according to a matchmaking algorithm, it should be possible to preserve most advantages of both the current and the "pure pug queue" approach while eliminating the worst "full super premade against a noob and 4 afkers" cases.
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Any form of ranking would help.
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I have been saying this for 3 years now. Been mocked and laughed at for even suggesting it for all 3 years of that time as well... either in forums or private chat. Premades have been largely responsible for destroying the game they love and pushing people out of what could have been something great. Back to the days when TSI ( had a different name then ) would use the broken Target Subsystems builds to permanently remove shields from every player on the other side.. to any other FOTM build that would demolish 5 random people just queuing up to have an honest match for fun... this is the creation of those desperate to be "number 1" at any and all cost. Enjoy.
Now if we can just get the community to find a meaningful set of suggestions for engineer changes that would bring them back into balance for pvp.. maybe we can have a 3 captain class game again... but let's be honest, no changes are coming and the community wants it that way, as a whole.
Again....Enjoy.
They would not have any idea of how to do this correctly. The game is based around DPS and Heals (which should only count as a score when used on others)
Effects and other useful things have 0 value in their scoring systems and they don't even have the foggiest on how to rate them
no scoring/rating system will be of any value until these have comparative point values.
Tyler Durden is: an OPVP Alt channel. NO one in your channel isnt in OPVP, so it really is quite redundant.
As well, the name of the channel couldnt possibly be more vague, and makes it look like some OPVP in-joke. Its been up for months now, and nothing. Surprise Attack does more for pvp then this useless channel does.
Solution? Name the channel something that people can read hear, see, that makes them think: This is where PVP happens. - Because as it stands, assuming that anyone can make the correlation at all, Tyler Durden just tells them ' this is the secret place where the really good people pvp'ers play. they dont even want 'pvp' in the title of the room because they dont want scrubs there'.
But would that even work? OPVP has a reasonable name, and a decent population, but it isnt moderated at all, and its almost always out of control.
But Why PVP? so you can get into a match against scrubs who got the line on the latest Zombie builds, or FBP builds that would allow them to survive and maybe even get a kill or two without acually having any skill? just fly around in a circle and wait for their fbp/rsp timers to come up with no strategy or guile involved. STO pvp doesent even require a moniter anymore, it can be done with AHK.
Save PVP? - Its already screwed. No other game on this planet has mechanics as BS as Feedback Pulse that punish people so severely for *gasp* attacking another player. there is no cannonical reason for FBP to be so powerful either. Its scaled to be useful in PVE so as a result of that, its completely overpowered in PVP.
Everyone should use FBP. EVERYONE. No acceptions: then we can just line up and hurl insults at eachother and call that PVP cuz no one dares fire at anyone on penalty of death. Its like Reverse PVP, if that even makes sense.
The first rule about STO pvp is that you do not shoot at another player.
The second rule is that you do not shoot at another player.
Thats pretty much it. Shooting at another player = you take damage, exponentially proportionate to the damage you deal to them. This makes no sense whatsoever, but it is what it is. STO pvp. complete and utter rubbish.
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*APPLAUSE* Best thing I read all day.
So much truth here. SOOOO MUCH TRUTH!!!
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In STO, there needs to be a way to sway the PvE players to PvP. Way back in the "Vanilla" days of a certain other MMO, they drew in the PvE masses by combining the content of PvE and PvP (Alterac Valley anyone?) which boasted some of the most epic PVP battles still talked about to this day, some lasting days, all dropping rewards from players, PvE NPCs, PvE and PVP content inside the battle zone, and reputation based progress and gear. Kerrat comes closest to that in this game, but not very. The future 'Dyson Sphere' content seems headed in this direction, so we actually need to be patient. With that said, I would like to add 5 cents (or fire) to this debate.
1.Team que's in PvP need to go away for awhile, period, to draw in casual gamers, especially when there is a TEAM option available to the premade community that is already in mass use according to all the previous posts. We want PvP casuals and curious to help rebuild the hardcore base. We will need some PvE players who are put off by PvP in its current state.
2. Combine PvP and PvE content in select zones, introducing existing and different PvP play styles (CTF, Free for All, Capture and Hold, Team deathmatch, etc.) all containing PvE content for your opposition to contend with as well as their PvE enemies.
Add in PvP/PvE gear with its own reputation, space/ground sets, powers, and 'marks' tied to each as needed for "grind" balancing, and with participation based rewards (DMG/Healing dealt) to avoid AFKers. The PvP gear needs to be separate from the PvE gear, with specific bonuses tied to PVP/PvE. With the combined "battlegrounds" containing both PvP and PvE content, the user has to decide which content in a specific "battleground" you want to be more prepared for. This will also produce varying builds on each ship type, and more hybrid builds instead of the cookie cutting we see a lot of now. For Cryptic, you know they will add more C-store content.
2. Adjust leveling xp. With PvP added to PvE, you'll have more participation from the curious than you have now. Leveling a ship captain should take a little longer than it does now to get to 50, so people don't immediately head for the PvP grinds.
3. Increase the number of participants from each side per match, per match type. STO Battles should feel epic, all the time in STO. Before they "nerfed" the elite Crystalline Entity, the Tholian Mirror ships spawning and creating a mess of everything was fun to me. The 'people' (under geared), cried and refused to adapt, instead of choosing a lighter difficulty level. Add in AFK debuff timers. The LEET individual PvPers will quickly forge to the front and be identified, as is their desire, without being OP because they will need to rely on PUGs or the sheer numbers will overwhelm him/her every time. This also helps teach PUGs on adopted tactics and communication. 1v3 wins may still be possible but not a regular occurrence. If 1v3 wins don't earn your name, then.....
4. ....A tiered INDIVIDUAL ranking system, helps not only gauge community interest and participation, but also a valuable tool for determining the likes and dislikes of the community, without having Devs visit the QQ forums and get bashed as regularly, or whenever a PvP Dev is put in place for us to interface with again. New content can be tailored to the most popular game modes, and less popular modes are easily identified and upgraded or removed.
5.Tiered PvP content after lv 10 (11-19, 20-29, 30-39, 40-49, 50+) for EACH match type, granting experience and minimizing "twinking" at each stage, while allowing people to familiarize themselves while leveling to the performance level of different ships in different situations. This tiering would only happen as "Battleground" participation ramps up over time, and would almost certainly require a lvl cap boost of at least 5, to make rewards.
If any of the above sounds familiar to any of you, then you've played one of a few successful MMOs that implemented PvP successfully, balancing issues aside, the interest is there and thriving after 9 years.
In order to really bring PvP where we want it, fully populated, fully engaging, rewarding, fun, and communal, concessions will have to be made in the community, overhaul style or we will continue to look like certain US Politicians in our non-profiting PvP stances.
You can throw my 5 pennies at them if you wish.
I totally understand how you feel. Once upon a time I was in those pug crushing premades. I saw first hand how we could kill the Q after a few matches. The new/casual players must be kept away from the unsportsman-like premades.
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You have made the mistake of thinking it was created to chat in... which it was not. It was created to setup matches in which is exactly what happens.
Opvp is fantastic and all but yes its creator who is long gone and not any of the people people assume him to be... created opvp for the same reason. With the lack of a Cryptic PvP channel it turned into the defacto place to TALK about pvp. Which is fine, I like Opvp.
Opvp 3500 or so members at least half of which no longer play the game
Tyler Durden 350 members all of whom still play the game.
Join for a night of PvP at some point instead of just assuming you know something about something you have not experienced.
BTW Minis SAttack channel was a good idea... but ya he runs matches in TD now.
As for the name bothering you I don't really much care about that. The name is popular... people in general get the idea when they think about the reference and for the most part people have left there inter fleet wars out of the channel. Its not about excluding anyone. With only 3500 people in Opvp and at least half of them inactive how much do you think random people are stumbling into Opvp ? Frankly had I called it something that included the letters PvP at the end... people like you would have jumped all over me for trying to kill opvp. lol
I love the mega-super-nuclear alpha strikes that romulans get.. you know.. the ones where they come out and do 70k + damage drop you and another person before you can press a button.
And don't forget the new "balanced" weapons.. the ones that ignore shields. Nothing says "cool" like being utterly destroyed in pvp with full shields. I mean.. great move Cryptic. That reminds me of how in Champions Online, you listened to the whiny pvp'ers who complained about tankers.. so you made a block counter that counters blocking before they can/or are using block so that they can never use block again.
Basically removing a mechanic from the game forever, effectively. Same goes here.
So, now that you have upped DPS burst for tacs so high that they can 1 shot God and removed a key part of defense, I was wondering if you "geniuses" at Cryptic can explain to us how this will help the PvP community grow.
Please,.. guide us with your divine wisdom, oh makers of broken-as-TRIBBLE games
Love, bite me.