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Plasma infusers stack???

slachanceslachance Member Posts: 144 Arc User
edited October 2013 in Federation Discussion
Does the buffing ability from Console - Tactical - Plasma Infuser stack? ex: having 4 X Console - Tactical - Plasma Infuser each giving 24.4% increase in plasma energy weapon dmg does that = total of 99.2% or is it 24.4% because they cannot stack?
Post edited by slachance on
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  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    They do stack but it is based off of base damage or a Mk 0 common(white) variant
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  • reginamala78reginamala78 Member Posts: 4,593 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Stacking good, but once you take skills and power settings into account its not nearly as huge a boost. On my ships for example, when all is said and done, a +28.1% console actually only actually adds about 7%, so its good, but not worth going nuts and loading up on 5 +30 consoles over.
  • sevmragesevmrage Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    WHat would be the way to get the most effective use out of them, then?
    Weyland-Yutani Joint Space Venture - Always open to new members!
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  • unboundinfernounboundinferno Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    General rule of thumb is two for average, three to top it off. Four or more if your crazy about every ounce you can get.

    Generally two is plenty, three is idea. More is excessive. Might not be a bad excessive, but you might benefit from something else if say you run Phasers and Quantium.

    If plasma is all you have, might as well load up.

    I don't know about that common, or Mk 0 thing - but I have always felt it was a kind of depreciating returns.

    1x 24.4%
    2x ~30%
    3x ~35%
    4x ~39%
    5x ~42%

    Or something like that. Its the math of how it adds up making it less with more.
  • sevmragesevmrage Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I have three Phaser Relays on my Dreadnought, but that's all it can hold. My Polaron Escort runs four, but Polaron weapons are all that are on it.
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  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    General rule of thumb is two for average, three to top it off. Four or more if your crazy about every ounce you can get.

    Generally two is plenty, three is idea. More is excessive. Might not be a bad excessive, but you might benefit from something else if say you run Phasers and Quantium.

    If plasma is all you have, might as well load up.

    I don't know about that common, or Mk 0 thing - but I have always felt it was a kind of depreciating returns.

    1x 24.4%
    2x ~30%
    3x ~35%
    4x ~39%
    5x ~42%

    Or something like that. Its the math of how it adds up making it less with more.

    All incorrect, you want to use all consoles to boost a uniform type.

    Tact consoles have no diminishing returns but it may feel that way to the untrained.

    Let's say your Mk xii plasma dhc does 1000 damage after skills and bonuses (Mk 0 dhc does only 100)

    You add a Mk xii purple plasma infuser for 30% boost to plasma energy weapons

    You only gain 30 extra damage to your Mk xii dhc, bringing it to 1030. This is because the game thinks marks are modifiers, as such, it only will use the base Mk 0 common dhc.

    For stacking reasons, another Mk xii purple plasma infuser will only add an additional 30.

    Going from 1030 to 1060 may feel like your experiencing diminishing returns, but in reality you have gained the full 30 point boost.

    Disclaimer: the math is there but I did not look up proper values for the dhcs
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

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  • unboundinfernounboundinferno Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    dahminus wrote: »
    All incorrect, you want to use all consoles to boost a uniform type.

    Tact consoles have no diminishing returns but it may feel that way to the untrained.

    Let's say your Mk xii plasma dhc does 1000 damage after skills and bonuses (Mk 0 dhc does only 100)

    You add a Mk xii purple plasma infuser for 30% boost to plasma energy weapons

    You only gain 30 extra damage to your Mk xii dhc, bringing it to 1030. This is because the game thinks marks are modifiers, as such, it only will use the base Mk 0 common dhc.

    For stacking reasons, another Mk xii purple plasma infuser will only add an additional 30.

    Going from 1030 to 1060 may feel like your experiencing diminishing returns, but in reality you have gained the full 30 point boost.

    Disclaimer: the math is there but I did not look up proper values for the dhcs

    One must know what diminishing returns are to understand how to say it is wrong. I perhaps worded it poorly to emphasize for mixed builds, but eh...

    However, I did't know the hard numbers. I never spent time to really see if its flat or not, but it doesn't diminish the fact its DIMINISHING RETURNS.

    Lets give it hard, flat numbers and find out, shal we? I remember its a boost of damage AFTER other boosts, so its minimal.

    Lets look at my ship at he moment;

    Phaser Beam Array Mk XII [Dam]
    Absolute Base damage: 235.4
    0 Consoles nothing to boost but weapon power 116: 844.5
    Add in an AMP warp core, running Weapons and Shields +75: 866.5
    Add 1 Rare Phaser Relay MK XI: 932.2 (that +65.7 is +27.9% damage of base - think that AMP amplifier is adjusting some)
    Add 2nd Phaser Relay: 997.9 (that +65.7 or +27.9% base damage...)
    Add 3rd Phaser Relay: 1,063.6 (hrm, still that +65.7 or +27.9% base damage...)

    Sure, it adds the same amount, but what did I gain, really?
    1st relay was only 7.5%
    2nd relay was 7%
    3rd relay was 6.5%
    See that? Diminishing returns. From the hard, base numbers of what is being used it gets less each time.

    Now I am speaking from experience piloting mixed builds, with Phasers and Quants. Know what gives more bang for its buck with it mixed? Well, mixed consoles. 2 and 2 pay more DPS than 3 and 1, and more than 4 and 0.

    In the case of my current? I use Quants around the Skills - excess damage is nice, but the majority is from my Phasers. No point in mixing that, and I don't do that. Quants don't fire enough to justify the loss of that damage. 15 seconds between shots is a long time to try and say I get more from a few points on the Quants as opposed to the Phasers over that time.

    Now my other torpedo/cannon hybrid, now that one's mixed cause I fire torpedoes as frequently as they can, and I need damage to tear shields down. So both makes sense as the torpeodes fire enough to justify that excess damage.


    Back to what I wrote? If you read it: I said if you use something mixed like Phasers and Quants mixing it would be okay. Now if all you run is DHC and Turrets of the same thing? What woudl you think I'd say to use? Toss n a Universal? Sheesh... pay attention.

    @OP - to clarify and not to add confusion - Now if your only offensive weapon is plasma, then pump plasma. I am not telling him to mix in some junk Universal there. But for mixed weapon type builds you get the best returns mixing both types if you use more.
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Diminishing returns happens when your consecutive consoles give less then the first.

    First console 10
    Second console 7 (originally 10)
    Third console 4 (originally 10)
    And so on...That is diminishing returns...

    By your own example and admittance, you are gaining the exact same amount of damage each console. Each console is worth the same as the previous. There is no diminishing returns occuring

    Is each one adding "less" percentage to the total? Of course they are. Otherwise each consecutive console would have to give more boost than their tooltip states.

    Mixing consoles is never a good idea. Whatever does the most dps should be getting the console boost. simple logic
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • unboundinfernounboundinferno Member Posts: 99 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    You are being like that on purpose, aren't you?

    A TORPEDO and ENERGY build uses both types of damage. (Plasma being the exception)

    TORPEDOES deal more damage than ENERGY when shields are DOWN.
    ENERGY out-damages TORPEODES when shields are UP.

    That means TORPEDOES are better than ENERGY once the shields are DOWN, but weaker when they are UP.

    Get that? Ok? If not, re-read that a few times.

    Now, how to maximize the killing potential of a mixed build? Or a Torpedo build? Well, obviously, you add in torpedo-damage-increasing parts, that's obvious. But most torpedoes are weak as hell when shields are up (except Transphasic, they pass as average) - so you need to remove them. How? Add shield-damaging parts. Obvious answer: increase the output of other weapons. Or abilities, but not many seek to build a Sci-Ship to fling torpedoes after shield-sapping.

    How do you do both for weapons to maximize the killing potential of that? You add both.

    Its not as simple as increasing the most damaging parts. You weaken a mixed build by upping only torpedoes - you'll take too long stripping shields to really damage most targets with torpedoes. crazy-HP bosses are the only exception. How about upping the weapon damage and just leave the output of torpedoes average? Well shields go faster, but hull is chewn up slower in comparison.

    Back to my statement; you use both mixed like Phasers and Quants, mix them up.

    Playing spreadsheet all day doesn't mean practice lives up to the plan.

    BTW: the gain in it is by the % boost which is deceptive by the funky math. It is diminishing returns based off what is described as % boost, as the % gets smaller. :P
  • sevmragesevmrage Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Okay you two, take it easy now.

    I can see it in a sense being weaker the higher it goes, but at the same time, you still get a bonus the more you stack, be it 5 or 500,000.

    If there are different weapon types, spread the weapon bonus items evenly if possible.

    There, that better?
    Weyland-Yutani Joint Space Venture - Always open to new members!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
    khayuung wrote: »
    Firstly, be proud! You're part of the few, the stubborn, the Federation Dreadnought Captains.
  • twoblindmonkstwoblindmonks Member Posts: 255
    edited October 2013
    dahminus wrote: »
    Diminishing returns happens when your consecutive consoles give less then the first.

    First console 10
    Second console 7 (originally 10)
    Third console 4 (originally 10)
    And so on...That is diminishing returns...

    By your own example and admittance, you are gaining the exact same amount of damage each console. Each console is worth the same as the previous. There is no diminishing returns occuring

    Is each one adding "less" percentage to the total? Of course they are. Otherwise each consecutive console would have to give more boost than their tooltip states.

    Mixing consoles is never a good idea. Whatever does the most dps should be getting the console boost. simple logic

    You are both kind of wrong. The best way to explain this is to say that while it is a percentage boost, is not a STACKING percentage boost. i.e. the 2nd dmg console does add a percentage of your base dmg + 1 dmg console. Oh and also that it is based off of Mk 0 white DHCs, that is good to say so that people know how much the consoles are adding. But it really doesn't have much to do with whether the return is diminishing.
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  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Plasma torps do kinetic damage and the dot is not affected by tact consoles

    Energy weapons do uniformed damage to hull and shields.

    Yes,torps do great damage to straight hull.

    That 30% isn't total damage.

    What's 30% of 100? 30
    What's 30% of the 100 in 130? 30

    Each console gives exactly the same as the one beforehand. By your logic, everything has diminishing returns. I think you are confusing English with a mmo term
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Btw, I'm going to leave this debate, you think in wrong, I think your wrong. And that one poster thinks we're both wrong....what you say we beat him up? :D
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • malaksilvermalaksilver Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    stacking would be useful but having the best weapons to go with it would be helpful to
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  • codewarrior316codewarrior316 Member Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Word to the wise - test it yourself and prove it to your own satisfaction. A few tips passed to me and they haven't steered me wrong.
    1) Always use all tac console slots for damage boost
    2) Don't mix energy types
    3) Don't bother with kinetic tac consoles (there is a reason they are so cheap) except for special builds. I would surmise that by asking the question that you probably aren't ready for such.

    The way I understand it (and admittedly I haven't tested it), if your base weapon damage were 100 and each console adds 25% then 2 would boost your base damage by 25 so with 5 your base weapon damage should be 225.

    If someone has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it.
  • slachanceslachance Member Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited October 2013

    @OP - to clarify and not to add confusion - Now if your only offensive weapon is plasma, then pump plasma. I am not telling him to mix in some junk Universal there. But for mixed weapon type builds you get the best returns mixing both types if you use more.


    I am only running plasma ATM.... kinda focusing on borg stf for now. Thanks for the info...

    Side question for everyone..... are there any bridge officer abilities (buffs like cannon spread fire and rapid fire) that affect turrets?
  • johankreigjohankreig Member Posts: 449 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Word to the wise - test it yourself and prove it to your own satisfaction. A few tips passed to me and they haven't steered me wrong.
    1) Always use all tac console slots for damage boost
    2) Don't mix energy types
    3) Don't bother with kinetic tac consoles (there is a reason they are so cheap) except for special builds. I would surmise that by asking the question that you probably aren't ready for such.

    The way I understand it (and admittedly I haven't tested it), if your base weapon damage were 100 and each console adds 25% then 2 would boost your base damage by 25 so with 5 your base weapon damage should be 225.

    If someone has evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it.

    nuff said, you can bat stuff round on here all day and all night and get to the same point that a few mins of testing would have done.
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  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Rapid fire and scatter volley affects turrets
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

    My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
  • arctcwolfarctcwolf Member Posts: 242 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    What this all boils down to is...

    yes, plasma infusers stack. they stack only based on base weapon stats.

    yes, they add a set percentage of damage for each infuser.

    example: plasma DHC does 250 base damage. 1 plasma infuser adds 30% damage. DHC now does 325 damage. infusers also boost proc plasma burn damage by 30%, but lets not get heavy into that.

    3 plasma infusers add 30% each, adding up to 90% base damage. 250 DHC damage now becomes 475 damage.

    4 plasma infusers add 30% each, adding up to 120% base damage. 250 DHC damage now becomes 550 damage.

    When I compare 3 infusers damage to 4 infusers damage, I see that percentage gains from 475 to 550 are roughly 15%. This is where the idea of diminishing returns comes in. The damage boost per console is EXACTLY the same, but the percentage gain compared to the system is much lower when at higher numbers(part of the laws of large numbers)

    So both individuals are right. You will ALWAYS gain 30% BASE DAMAGE bonus per plasma infuser, but when applied to a system of infusers, each one added has DIMINISHED RETURNS in regards to the time it takes to take down a target.

    4 infusers will allow you to take down a target 15% faster than 3 infusers would...assuming everything else was equal. now you have to look at how long it takes you to kill a target. say it takes 20 seconds with 3 infusers. 4 infusers would do it in only 17 seconds. now how long would it take the same enemy to kill you? if its longer, ur fine, if its shorter, how to fix it? another thing to consider...with all the universal consoles out there, is there a console that will get you those 3 seconds, 15% faster kill time, or more? or benefit you more in other areas?

    I see consoles like the DTS and plasmonic leech as perfectly fine to swap in weapon console slot to replace a 4th or 5th infuser. they benefit me as weapons mods, thus I view them as weapon consoles that outweigh the few seconds I get from another infuser.
  • mll623mll623 Member Posts: 135 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I have tested it multiple times on different ships. The consoles do stack, and they stack linearly. The difference in absolute DPS between the 3rd and 4th console is the same as between then 1st and 2nd. What confuses people is the smaller relative boost you get, as the consoles stack additively not multiplicatively. As well, running 125 weapon power gives you 2.5 x base damage which is also additive, so going from 2.5 to 3.5 (4 25% consoles) is not noticed as much as from 1 to 2. The additional modifiers from skills wash things out further.

    The reason you don't mix energy types is because you lose this additive stacking.

    2 Beams, 2 Torps, 2 of each console - you get all 4 weapons boosted twice

    4 beams, same type = you get ALL 4 weapons boosted FOUR TIMES.

    Torpedoes are not meant for primary DPS - use them with spread or high yield for special situations or as part of a strategy. Energy weapons do consistently higher DPS.

    I can get a single shot from a DHC over 3000 base damage easily on a tac escort, and this is not a fleet or rep weapon and I only have 4 tac consoles. This means that each shot from a cannon does as much damage as a torpedo, much faster.

    I use a single tricobalt on a beam cruiser for the 20k+ alpha strike high yield gives you and the AOE+ Disable, but if I didn't need to worry about power drain then I would probably still stick another beam array on it.
  • torvinecho25torvinecho25 Member Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Okay, quite a few of you are wrong, and there's a lot of foolish answers on this post.

    First off...tactical consoles DO NOT HAVE DIMINISHING RETURNS, and they DO NOT STACK. Each tactical console adds a marked percentage to the BASE damage of each weapon (the Mark 0 thing is not true). If you equip a +24% plasma infuser on a plasma beam array that deals 100 base damage, the plasma console will boost the beam array to 124 damage. If you equip a second +24% plasma infuser, it will add another 24% of the base damage of 100 (another 24 plasma damage, bringing the total up to 148 plasma damage). Thus, each console adds a set percentage to the BASE damage, without stacking (if they stacked, the first would add +24 plasma damage, while the second would take the first into account and bring the damage up to 153.76, not 148). It really is not that complex. No diminishing returns, no stacking. Each one adds base damage. Simple.

    Secondly...seriously, you guys are killing me with the "mini-maxing energy damage" stuff. ALL of your consoles do not have to boost one damage type for them to be effective. Where does that belief even come from? On an Odyssey or a Galaxy or another ship that has only two or three tactical slots, I can fully understand equipping two or three phaser relays to upgrade beam damage; it makes sense, as you only have a few tactical consoles available. But how about a ship with four or five tactical consoles? A Fleet Defiant is far more effective with 2 DHCs, 1 DBB, and one Quantum torpedo + 4 phaser relays, +1 quantum torpedo tactical console + torpedo high yield + beam overload then it is with just 5 relays and 4 DHCs. Mixing you're tactical consoles can be destructive if you do it right, ESPECIALLY on ships like Birds-of-Prey, Warbirds, and Defiants. The problem is you guys are too lazy to spend the effort tampering with your energy and kinetic consoles to get the desired effect; instead, you take the easy approach and just "max" out your energy damage and then run around telling all the newer players to do the same.
  • twoblindmonkstwoblindmonks Member Posts: 255
    edited October 2013
    Okay, quite a few of you are wrong, and there's a lot of foolish answers on this post.

    First off...tactical consoles DO NOT HAVE DIMINISHING RETURNS, and they DO NOT STACK.

    Secondly...seriously, you guys are killing me with the "mini-maxing energy damage" stuff. ALL of your consoles do not have to boost one damage type for them to be effective. Where does that belief even come from? On an Odyssey or a Galaxy or another ship that has only two or three tactical slots, I can fully understand equipping two or three phaser relays to upgrade beam damage; it makes sense, as you only have a few tactical consoles available. But how about a ship with four or five tactical consoles? A Fleet Defiant is far more effective with 2 DHCs, 1 DBB, and one Quantum torpedo + 4 phaser relays, +1 quantum torpedo tactical console + torpedo high yield + beam overload then it is with just 5 relays and 4 DHCs. Mixing you're tactical consoles can be destructive if you do it right, ESPECIALLY on ships like Birds-of-Prey, Warbirds, and Defiants. The problem is you guys are too lazy to spend the effort tampering with your energy and kinetic consoles to get the desired effect; instead, you take the easy approach and just "max" out your energy damage and then run around telling all the newer players to do the same.

    Um, first of all. They DO stack. More than one tac console adds more damage. If they didnt stack, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th consoles would do nothing. What they dont do is compound upon each other. They stack linearly. Second of all........4 dhcs and all phaser relays will out damage your terrible setup. Parses will show that. Period. Torps are silly to use unlessbyou are using torp doffs and 2 torps or doing a full torp build.
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  • carasucia83carasucia83 Member Posts: 559 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    I love this thread. Same way I love how there's only 'one way' to kit out your ship.

    I would like to cordially request a dev appear to explain this before it turns into a slanging match between those that know what they're talking about and those that misguidedly and religiously believe the vast plethora of 'urban myths' floating around this game relating to ship set-ups and what stuff does.
    Everything in this game is free and all you have to do to get it is play the game for a bit.

    If you have a multitude of characters to get the stuffz for, or can't wait to gather the dilithium to exchange for zen - FOR FREE - that's your business and not really Cryptic's problem.
  • dahminusdahminus Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    Um, first of all. They DO stack. More than one tac console adds more damage. If they didnt stack, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th consoles would do nothing. What they dont do is compound upon each other. They stack linearly. Second of all........4 dhcs and all phaser relays will out damage your terrible setup. Parses will show that. Period. Torps are silly to use unlessbyou are using torp doffs and 2 torps or doing a full torp build.

    I second this.

    As for my Mk 0 spiel. Get a Mk 0 phaser dhc and a Mk 12 phaser dhc. Next get a phaser console of whatever you prefer

    Equip both dhcs, write down the damage then equip the console. Do both increase by the same points of damage? Share your results :cool:
    Chive on and prosper, eh?

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  • hereticknight085hereticknight085 Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    *sigh*

    Ooook here we go again.

    *takes a deep breath*

    THE ONLY CONSOLES THAT SUFFER FROM DIMINISHING RETURNS ARE ENGINEERING CONSOLES. There. I said it. All other consoles stack linearly. IE each console adds exactly the same as the last one.

    Each uncommon Plasma Infuser mk XI will add 24.4% of your base damage to your weapons damage. Each uncommon Plasma Infuser mk XI will add 24.4% of your base damage to your weapons damage REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU HAVE 1 EQUIPPED OR 1 MILLION EQUIPPED (even though a million plasma infusers would be awesome to see).

    There is no downside whatsoever to adding more damage dealing tac consoles (other than losing a possible uni console slot). Granted it won't affect your total damage output quite as much as you'd think (due to SS power mechanics, captain skillpoints, tactical buffs and debuffs, EPtW, etc), but it will always add the same amount period.

    *takes a deep breath and exhales*

    There, I think that should about cover it.
    It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. B)
  • smokeybacon90smokeybacon90 Member Posts: 2,252 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    When people do not see their DPS increase as much when adding a 4th console over what it was when adding a 3rd, they scream "Diminishing returns!!!11!".

    This highlights the really poor grasp of mathematics some people have. Tac consoles stack perfectly when compared to the base DPS. The 1st console adds +xx% of the base DPS, just as the 5th or 5000th consoles add +xx%.

    End of discussion.
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  • lebtronlebtron Member Posts: 296 Arc User
    edited October 2013
    When people do not see their DPS increase as much when adding a 4th console over what it was when adding a 3rd, they scream "Diminishing returns!!!11!".

    This highlights the really poor grasp of mathematics some people have. Tac consoles stack perfectly when compared to the base DPS. The 1st console adds +xx% of the base DPS, just as the 5th or 5000th consoles add +xx%.
    "In economics, diminishing returns (also called diminishing marginal returns) is the decrease in the marginal (per-unit) output of a production process as the amount of a single factor of production is increased, while the amounts of all other factors of production stay constant." (wiki)

    If I add one console, I get lets say additional 10% to my overall dps (not just base dps). If I add console number 5000 i get maybe 0,0001% to my overall dps. So we can perfectly see a dimishing return per-unit invested, fullfilling the definition.

    Of course we could relate the absolute numbers per unit to the base damage and say its not dimishing. That would be right too. But at least the term "dimishing return" is always related to the output, not any base numbers (that wouldnt make sense else in economy).

    Fact is, on a certain point it wouldnt be useful to slot in another console (of course just if we assume you have anything else to slot in or the cost of investment could be considerd too high). There is a point even, it might just not be reached with the available 5 consoles.
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