I only read the last page and had a good lol at those calculations. Dont know what you're talking about.
If its just because of the meaning of the word stack at least to me it means that stuff is working at the same time like the embassy consoles. Dont care about possible other meanings^^ when i have 3 consoles adding 100 and using all 3 gives me 300 they stack.
When all this trouble is just about the word stack do what we mathematicians do:
Introduce stack_1 and stack_2. One can have your meaning, the other theirs and all can go home happily.
And i'm not to stupid to read or understand anything, once you get through the theorema egregium nothing any mmo can do really challanges you. Mmos are basically on the elementar school lvl. I just dont care about the weeoo and angry and whee serious discussion lol. Just wanted to have some fun and troll a tiny tinsy bit.
I am deeply sorry if you feel offended by me giving you a math lecture. Maybe this one helps more;P
You know I think you were sincere, your just trying to cover up your mistakes...nice try, I don't buy it. Please try to act like an adult next time you get into a discussion. It will help you look more mature.
Maybe i really should a math for beginners thread. So sad - guess its those guys thinking "why would i ever need math" and now they cant even do the simplest stuff i learned at like 7th grade or something.
If you take 100 and increase by 100 to 200 its a 100% increase. If you then add another 100 to the 200 you'll be at 300, but its only a 50% increase this time. Got it?
How about this. I will take a 1% increase of a million dollars, while you can have a 5% increase off of one-hundred-thousand dollars. After all, in your mind, 5% is better than 1% isn't it? Just please don't be a mathematician, scientist, or business analyst.
Just looking at a percentage and comparing it to another percentage while not paying attention to the raw value at the same time is not a proper analysis technique, unless you only ever had 7th grade math. You cant eat a percentage, you cant spend a percentage (you spend units), you cant feel a percentage, its just a conceptual construct.
lol you ppl must really confuse me with someone interessted in this discussion^^
i never said look here look there. i was only explaing how percentages work. tbh i never said anything really towards whatever the current thread topic is^^ only thing i said was, that when you continously add the same value x to a base value y, the percentage wise increase decreases and because the value the percentage value is referring to is increasing. thats all and that totally correct. if you say anything else, pls revisit elementary school or get one of those math for beginners books^^ :P
so yeah, you add the same value, the percentage goes down but you still get 100 each time. thinking that beause the percentages go down there is some form of dimishing return is just plain simple wrong.
BUT
the main problem is that in sto tooltips there is no differentiation between and xx % (increase/decrease) and %% percentage-points or however you say that in english.
you could call it stacking multiplicatively and stacking additively.
You could write it as "+10%" fro something that adds 10% of some base value and "*10%" for something that increases the current value (including a value buffed by other stuff like other consoles of the same type) by 10% of the current value. Its also not immediatly clear weather or not the one type, say *10% is calculated off the base value or the value increased by other +xx% stuff.
so if we start with 100..
-and add one +10% console we get to 110
-add two +10% consoles we get 120
-add two *10% consoles we get to 121
-add one +10% console and one *10% console (version 1) we get (100+10%) * 10% = 121
-same with version 2 we get (100 *10%) + 10% (off base) = 120
and so on.
Afaik most stuff stating "+xx%" actually means additively, off some base value, and that base value is never to be found ingame and has to be calculated of your weapon and skills.
other stuff like eptw seems to be based of some other base value, but still not stacking multiplicatively with say apa but seemingly with some other stuff like consoles.
so whatever you thought i meant, this is what i had in mind. My (admitedly minimal) grasp of this thread was based on a problem related to the word "stack" and what it actually means, while i was just stating that there are many ways stuff can stack (and not stack at all) in sto. if there is some standard way based of some moo focused definition stating that "stack" always refers to any specific type of stacking then well i dont care, its good to know but still imprecise.
MMO stacking is can they both be used at the same time and they both do what they say they do. 2 tac consoles of the same type can be used at the same time and both add the amount they say they add. Thus yes they stack using the MMO definition of stacking.
All other definitions of stacking or uses of the word are irrelevent.
As for diminishing returns and tac consoles... tac consoles add to base damage only and will add the same amount for each console added. there is no diminishing returns. After you add them all up and get the base + X consoles you then add the weapons mark and QL, dmg modifiers, skill and everything else for the total output. Again still no diminishing returns because tac consoles are factored before anything else including other tac consoles.
If each consecutive tac conole added less percentage to base before anything else is factored then you would have diminishing returns.
This whole argument is stupid because it has already been proven. You can spend the time to do a forum search until you find the half dozen posts that prove it. or you can use fuzzy math and non aplicable finance concepts to argue it i dont care.
Join Date: Nobody cares.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
Oy Vey. Maybe someone should lock this before it turns into a mathematical flame war. It's all fun and games until innocent integers get turned into exponents and someone divides by zero.
Weyland-Yutani Joint Space Venture - Always open to new members!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
I only read the last page and had a good lol at those calculations. Dont know what you're talking about.
If its just because of the meaning of the word stack at least to me it means that stuff is working at the same time like the embassy consoles. Dont care about possible other meanings^^ when i have 3 consoles adding 100 and using all 3 gives me 300 they stack.
When all this trouble is just about the word stack do what we mathematicians do:
Introduce stack_1 and stack_2. One can have your meaning, the other theirs and all can go home happily.
And i'm not to stupid to read or understand anything, once you get through the theorema egregium nothing any mmo can do really challanges you. Mmos are basically on the elementar school lvl. I just dont care about the weeoo and angry and whee serious discussion lol. Just wanted to have some fun and troll a tiny tinsy bit.
I am deeply sorry if you feel offended by me giving you a math lecture. Maybe this one helps more;P
be serious, what you describe is exponential growth, not stacking.
try it out yourself and draw a graph of your formula and you will see it is an upward curve.
linear stacking kind of implies that it is not a curve...
and yeah...i just loled at your understanding of math
linear stacking of base damage.
now look at the percentage differences between each level...
0-1: 7.9%
1-2: 7.2%
2-3: 6.8%
3-4: 6.4%
4-5: 5.9%
the percentage difference in change between total damage for each level has reduced each time another weapon console is added.
what this should teach ppl is that weapon power is a more important modifier than weapon consoles. Also, in cases of cannons, dc's, dhc's, and turrets, per pulse modifiers have more of an effect than base damage does. boosting critical hit, critical severity, accuracy, ect.
I wonder...if everyone knew that consoles didnt truly boost damage the way they thought, if they would change up their setups to be more like cruisers...why do you think cruisers can manage to out DPS anything over a long period vs glass cannons?
I wonder if andorian escort captains started replacing their 4th and 5th weapon consoles with their unique consoles, how much of a bonus they would get?
oh yeah, classic. I'd like that your work productivity would be calculated the same way you calculate this console bonus.
That way, you would actually get less productive each passing day, even with overhours.
ofcourse it will get less each time you add a console, because you are not referencing the BASE dmg from the START, but the TOTAL dmg AT THE END.
be serious, what you describe is exponential growth, not stacking.
try it out yourself and draw a graph of your formula and you will see it is an upward curve.
linear stacking kind of implies that it is not a curve...
and yeah...i just loled at your understanding of math
oh yeah, classic. I'd like that your work productivity would be calculated the same way you calculate this console bonus.
That way, you would actually get less productive each passing day, even with overhours.
ofcourse it will get less each time you add a console, because you are not referencing the BASE dmg from the START, but the TOTAL dmg AT THE END.
It won't do any good talking to him about it, he still won't understand the facts or the point.
I've tried keeping up with all this, but it quickly got to the point where all I was seeing was this.
that is sad, that those people managed to cinfuse you that hard, because the issue is fairly simple and straight forward.
each console of the same tier and rarety adds the same amount of dmg...from the first to the 1 millionth, it is the same basic amount.
one of my rare MK XI adds 106 dmg (and i think that is around 72 dps) to each of my DHC. how much it is for my KCB or turrets idk exactly, since the base dmg of those weapons is lower.
that is sad, that those people managed to cinfuse you that hard, because the issue is fairly simple and straight forward.
each console of the same tier and rarety adds the same amount of dmg...from the first to the 1 millionth, it is the same basic amount.
one of my rare MK XI adds 106 dmg (and i think that is around 72 dps) to each of my DHC. how much it is for my KCB or turrets idk exactly, since the base dmg of those weapons is lower.
I don't see what's so hard either. Tactical consoles add X% of the base weapon damage to each weapon of that energy type. So say your DHC has a base damage of 100 and your console adds 20%. Each console will add 20 damage. Period. End of story. Base damage ONLY. Skills don't affect the effect of tactical consoles. Power levels don't affect the effect of tactical consoles. The Orion Slave Girls in your personal quarters don't affect the effect of your tactical consoles. They are autonomous. The only thing that affects how much they add is their Mk level and rarity. Nothing more.
It ain't astrophysics people. You have DOffs who do that as their job. Leave it to them.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
be serious, what you describe is exponential growth, not stacking.
try it out yourself and draw a graph of your formula and you will see it is an upward curve.
linear stacking kind of implies that it is not a curve...
and yeah...i just loled at your understanding of math
oh yeah, classic. I'd like that your work productivity would be calculated the same way you calculate this console bonus.
That way, you would actually get less productive each passing day, even with overhours.
ofcourse it will get less each time you add a console, because you are not referencing the BASE dmg from the START, but the TOTAL dmg AT THE END.
Work productivity actually drops the longer employees work, thats been statistically proven. Its also cheaper to pay another individual straight time than pay an employee overtime.
Its ok though, everyone is allowed to think whatever they want. When you can prove through game that you are 30% better by having another mk XII very rare weapon console, let me know.
1.) Test in space, with powered gear for reasonable accuracy.
2.) Additional tactical consoles of the same type will increase base damage.
3.) 'Stacking' is a bad metaphor. Consoles are not chairs.
4.) Damage is very likely optimal with one energy type.
Some beliefs that will ultimately be proven wrong, but for the moment are not:
5.) Racial bias exists with energy types.
6.) Plasma energy has the most options for boosting damage (fleet embassy consoles)
Having a stack of +30%'s isn't necessarily better than a stack of +26.2% consoles; damage is ALL about the players skill.
Its ok though, everyone is allowed to think whatever they want. When you can prove through game that you are 30% better by having another mk XII very rare weapon console, let me know.
this answer shows that not even now after all this pages of explanation you didn't understand the mechanic of tac consoles.
i'll word it again for you: they do not add a straight 30% dmg to your weapons!! ONLY 30% of a weapons BASE DMG! which is about 5-6% of the weapons dmg in total!
and every tac console adds the same amount no amtter how many you have already.
if you are unable to get it until now, i fear there is no way to teach you anything.
The difference between Mk XI Rare and Mark XII Very Rare is minuscule 3.8% to be precise. But it's there.
In a 1 on 1 fight with the the same ship, equal pilots, the same gear and weapons and the same skillpoints and BOFFs with the only difference being the weapons consoles.
I'd bet on the guy with Mk XII's. But there is a Random Number Generator at work here.
I can guarantee that firing a single Mk X White DHC with 50 weapons power at a bare hulled target 300 times will show higher averages with better weapons Consoles equipped.
But I use Mk XI Blues, I can't afford the Mk XII Purples. If I got my hands on a Mk XII very Rare Disruptor Coil I wouldn't even keep it. The increase would be minuscule and I could sell it for a fortune and gear my toons with all sorts of Lockbox goodies.
Having done the maths. A Mk XII DHC does 384 DPV.
783.6672 with 4 Mk XI Rares.
844.8 with 4 Mk XII Very Rares.
That's a difference of 61.1328
That's Base Damage with Normal Weapons Power and no skills factored in. When you add all that your getting weapons that hit much much harder but the difference between the Blue XI and Purple XII is still only 61.1328.
We all know that XII Purple doesn't make you do 30% more damage. But it really does make you do 3.8% more base damage over the far cheaper Mk XI Blue.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
that is sad, that those people managed to cinfuse you that hard, because the issue is fairly simple and straight forward.
You misunderstood me a bit. I know what the Tac Consoles do. Add a percentage of damage based on the initial damage number of the applicable weapon.
It was trying to read all that math stuff in arguement form.
"No, Jenny has five apples, she eats one, and the earth's rotation is speeded up!"
"No! Jenny still has 5 apples, but one is in conceptual form, thus altering Earth's orbit of the sun and thusly affecting the mass of the sun!"
"No, you idiot. You're not even reading the equations right, the Higgs-Boson particle comes into play here, it's not even related to semi-algebraic constructs!"
"Dumbass. If you just followed a+bi=r⋅(cosθ+isinθ) properly, you'd understand. a 3rd grader can do this!"
"Wrong Formula, numbnuts, THIS is the one you meant! [r(cosθ+isinθ)]1/n=r1/n(cosθ+2kπn+isinθ+2kπn) k=0,1,?,n−1"
That's what some of that was looking like to me. What was simple was exploded into a mess of dangling participles and unknown integers.
Weyland-Yutani Joint Space Venture - Always open to new members!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
Comments
You know I think you were sincere, your just trying to cover up your mistakes...nice try, I don't buy it. Please try to act like an adult next time you get into a discussion. It will help you look more mature.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
How about this. I will take a 1% increase of a million dollars, while you can have a 5% increase off of one-hundred-thousand dollars. After all, in your mind, 5% is better than 1% isn't it? Just please don't be a mathematician, scientist, or business analyst.
Just looking at a percentage and comparing it to another percentage while not paying attention to the raw value at the same time is not a proper analysis technique, unless you only ever had 7th grade math. You cant eat a percentage, you cant spend a percentage (you spend units), you cant feel a percentage, its just a conceptual construct.
i never said look here look there. i was only explaing how percentages work. tbh i never said anything really towards whatever the current thread topic is^^ only thing i said was, that when you continously add the same value x to a base value y, the percentage wise increase decreases and because the value the percentage value is referring to is increasing. thats all and that totally correct. if you say anything else, pls revisit elementary school or get one of those math for beginners books^^ :P
so yeah, you add the same value, the percentage goes down but you still get 100 each time. thinking that beause the percentages go down there is some form of dimishing return is just plain simple wrong.
BUT
the main problem is that in sto tooltips there is no differentiation between and xx % (increase/decrease) and %% percentage-points or however you say that in english.
you could call it stacking multiplicatively and stacking additively.
You could write it as "+10%" fro something that adds 10% of some base value and "*10%" for something that increases the current value (including a value buffed by other stuff like other consoles of the same type) by 10% of the current value. Its also not immediatly clear weather or not the one type, say *10% is calculated off the base value or the value increased by other +xx% stuff.
so if we start with 100..
-and add one +10% console we get to 110
-add two +10% consoles we get 120
-add two *10% consoles we get to 121
-add one +10% console and one *10% console (version 1) we get (100+10%) * 10% = 121
-same with version 2 we get (100 *10%) + 10% (off base) = 120
and so on.
Afaik most stuff stating "+xx%" actually means additively, off some base value, and that base value is never to be found ingame and has to be calculated of your weapon and skills.
other stuff like eptw seems to be based of some other base value, but still not stacking multiplicatively with say apa but seemingly with some other stuff like consoles.
so whatever you thought i meant, this is what i had in mind. My (admitedly minimal) grasp of this thread was based on a problem related to the word "stack" and what it actually means, while i was just stating that there are many ways stuff can stack (and not stack at all) in sto. if there is some standard way based of some moo focused definition stating that "stack" always refers to any specific type of stacking then well i dont care, its good to know but still imprecise.
All other definitions of stacking or uses of the word are irrelevent.
As for diminishing returns and tac consoles... tac consoles add to base damage only and will add the same amount for each console added. there is no diminishing returns. After you add them all up and get the base + X consoles you then add the weapons mark and QL, dmg modifiers, skill and everything else for the total output. Again still no diminishing returns because tac consoles are factored before anything else including other tac consoles.
If each consecutive tac conole added less percentage to base before anything else is factored then you would have diminishing returns.
This whole argument is stupid because it has already been proven. You can spend the time to do a forum search until you find the half dozen posts that prove it. or you can use fuzzy math and non aplicable finance concepts to argue it i dont care.
"I'm drunk, whats your excuse for being an idiot?" - Unknown drunk man. :eek:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
5 plasma infusers does more damage than 4
Kbye
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
^^^^^^ yuuuuuuuup
Genius, I'll see to it you get the Nobel Peace prize for this
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Do the maths again, and this time compare to the base 0-console DPS, like you were supposed to. The 5th console did just as much as the 1st.
be serious, what you describe is exponential growth, not stacking.
try it out yourself and draw a graph of your formula and you will see it is an upward curve.
linear stacking kind of implies that it is not a curve...
and yeah...i just loled at your understanding of math
oh yeah, classic. I'd like that your work productivity would be calculated the same way you calculate this console bonus.
That way, you would actually get less productive each passing day, even with overhours.
ofcourse it will get less each time you add a console, because you are not referencing the BASE dmg from the START, but the TOTAL dmg AT THE END.
It won't do any good talking to him about it, he still won't understand the facts or the point.
Don't bother them with facts, some people KNOW they're right.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.
that is sad, that those people managed to cinfuse you that hard, because the issue is fairly simple and straight forward.
each console of the same tier and rarety adds the same amount of dmg...from the first to the 1 millionth, it is the same basic amount.
one of my rare MK XI adds 106 dmg (and i think that is around 72 dps) to each of my DHC. how much it is for my KCB or turrets idk exactly, since the base dmg of those weapons is lower.
I don't see what's so hard either. Tactical consoles add X% of the base weapon damage to each weapon of that energy type. So say your DHC has a base damage of 100 and your console adds 20%. Each console will add 20 damage. Period. End of story. Base damage ONLY. Skills don't affect the effect of tactical consoles. Power levels don't affect the effect of tactical consoles. The Orion Slave Girls in your personal quarters don't affect the effect of your tactical consoles. They are autonomous. The only thing that affects how much they add is their Mk level and rarity. Nothing more.
It ain't astrophysics people. You have DOffs who do that as their job. Leave it to them.
Work productivity actually drops the longer employees work, thats been statistically proven. Its also cheaper to pay another individual straight time than pay an employee overtime.
Its ok though, everyone is allowed to think whatever they want. When you can prove through game that you are 30% better by having another mk XII very rare weapon console, let me know.
General rules which has yet to be proven wrong:
1.) Test in space, with powered gear for reasonable accuracy.
2.) Additional tactical consoles of the same type will increase base damage.
3.) 'Stacking' is a bad metaphor. Consoles are not chairs.
4.) Damage is very likely optimal with one energy type.
Some beliefs that will ultimately be proven wrong, but for the moment are not:
5.) Racial bias exists with energy types.
6.) Plasma energy has the most options for boosting damage (fleet embassy consoles)
Having a stack of +30%'s isn't necessarily better than a stack of +26.2% consoles; damage is ALL about the players skill.
I see what you did there with affect/effect, brilliant.
this answer shows that not even now after all this pages of explanation you didn't understand the mechanic of tac consoles.
i'll word it again for you: they do not add a straight 30% dmg to your weapons!! ONLY 30% of a weapons BASE DMG! which is about 5-6% of the weapons dmg in total!
and every tac console adds the same amount no amtter how many you have already.
if you are unable to get it until now, i fear there is no way to teach you anything.
In a 1 on 1 fight with the the same ship, equal pilots, the same gear and weapons and the same skillpoints and BOFFs with the only difference being the weapons consoles.
I'd bet on the guy with Mk XII's. But there is a Random Number Generator at work here.
I can guarantee that firing a single Mk X White DHC with 50 weapons power at a bare hulled target 300 times will show higher averages with better weapons Consoles equipped.
But I use Mk XI Blues, I can't afford the Mk XII Purples. If I got my hands on a Mk XII very Rare Disruptor Coil I wouldn't even keep it. The increase would be minuscule and I could sell it for a fortune and gear my toons with all sorts of Lockbox goodies.
Having done the maths. A Mk XII DHC does 384 DPV.
783.6672 with 4 Mk XI Rares.
844.8 with 4 Mk XII Very Rares.
That's a difference of 61.1328
That's Base Damage with Normal Weapons Power and no skills factored in. When you add all that your getting weapons that hit much much harder but the difference between the Blue XI and Purple XII is still only 61.1328.
We all know that XII Purple doesn't make you do 30% more damage. But it really does make you do 3.8% more base damage over the far cheaper Mk XI Blue.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
You misunderstood me a bit. I know what the Tac Consoles do. Add a percentage of damage based on the initial damage number of the applicable weapon.
It was trying to read all that math stuff in arguement form.
"No, Jenny has five apples, she eats one, and the earth's rotation is speeded up!"
"No! Jenny still has 5 apples, but one is in conceptual form, thus altering Earth's orbit of the sun and thusly affecting the mass of the sun!"
"No, you idiot. You're not even reading the equations right, the Higgs-Boson particle comes into play here, it's not even related to semi-algebraic constructs!"
"Dumbass. If you just followed a+bi=r⋅(cosθ+isinθ) properly, you'd understand. a 3rd grader can do this!"
"Wrong Formula, numbnuts, THIS is the one you meant! [r(cosθ+isinθ)]1/n=r1/n(cosθ+2kπn+isinθ+2kπn) k=0,1,?,n−1"
That's what some of that was looking like to me. What was simple was exploded into a mess of dangling participles and unknown integers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
My name is Rage, and I too support a revised Galaxy family.