Download ACT parser and look at the results for yourself. The Devs won't be bothered.
I use ACT. I know how consoles work. I am sad enough (I really am) to spend hours sitting in orbit of a planet slotting and unslotting consoles, checking and rechecking the numbers.
My comment was alluding to the fact that many people hear something not quite true, or outright made up, and proceed to preach it as (the one true) gospel. When they are challenged, they throw a hissy fit. A bit like those people who say that you absolutely must have someone babysit the Kang...
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
"In economics, diminishing returns (also called diminishing marginal returns) is the decrease in the marginal (per-unit) output of a production process as the amount of a single factor of production is increased, while the amounts of all other factors of production stay constant." (wiki)
If I add one console, I get lets say additional 10% to my overall dps (not just base dps). If I add console number 5000 i get maybe 0,0001% to my overall dps. So we can perfectly see a dimishing return per-unit invested, fullfilling the definition.
Of course we could relate the absolute numbers per unit to the base damage and say its not dimishing. That would be right too. But at least the term "dimishing return" is always related to the output, not any base numbers (that wouldnt make sense else in economy).
Fact is, on a certain point it wouldnt be useful to slot in another console (of course just if we assume you have anything else to slot in or the cost of investment could be considerd too high). There is a point even, it might just not be reached with the available 5 consoles.
Its not diminsihing returns its opportunity cost that you are going for. I get your going for an economics argument of the investment of the 4th or 5th energy console. But this isn't real world this is Cryptic world. Engineering consoles do have diminishing returns, while tac consoles do not. Furthermore, this game is all about pew pew alpha damage in PvP and pew pew DPS in pve. Because of the game mechanics nothing is as valuable as more damage from your phasers/disruptors. If you want that universal console, put it in place of science or engineer console. Ships are rated in PvP based on how many tac consoles they can slot for a reason :eek: Get with the program and stop fist fighting a tsunami. More damage = better escort. And this game is all about the escorts in escorts online.
I like how pretty much every poster in this thread says something completely different.
Anyone reading it is going to be confused as hell.
There are really only 3 types of people here.
Those who are right, those who are wrong, and those who are just being pedantic. It is the people in the 3rd group, like Torvin, who risk causing confusion.
Furthermore, this game is all about pew pew alpha damage in PvP and pew pew DPS in pve. Because of the game mechanics nothing is as valuable as more damage from your phasers/disruptors. If you want that universal console, put it in place of science or engineer console.
Completly true, thats the reason why I do not slot anything else than tactical consoles in tactical places. But with more upcoming content, I guess we will have more universal consoles to choose from. I have right now 4 universal consoles increasing my crtH or crtD plus plasmonic leach. One more and I would have to calc for the first time if is better to use a tactical or an additional universal console on certain ships.
BTW: the gain in it is by the % boost which is deceptive by the funky math. It is diminishing returns based off what is described as % boost, as the % gets smaller. :P
No it isn't. Law of diminishing returns isn't based off of a percentage of increase, its what you are getting output-wise in regards to units (utility, units produced, dps, etc.).
The "hard value" is what is truly measured in diminishing returns, not the percentage value because the percentage rate of change is exponential (and regressive), not linear.
Um, first of all. They DO stack. More than one tac console adds more damage. If they didnt stack, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th consoles would do nothing. What they dont do is compound upon each other. They stack linearly. Second of all........4 dhcs and all phaser relays will out damage your terrible setup. Parses will show that. Period. Torps are silly to use unlessbyou are using torp doffs and 2 torps or doing a full torp build.
No, no they don't stack. The term "stack" implies that each console "stacks" upon the previous console, taking the previous consoles effects into account. Please learn to understand terms before you attempt to correct other people who are using them properly.
Each console adds base damage, without taking the prior consoles effects into account. Thus, each tactical console has a "flat" effect; they do not stack.
Secondly, 4 DHCs and 5 phaser relays will not out-DPS 3 DHCs, 1 quantum launcher, 4 relays, and 1 quantum console, not if you have any idea what you are doing. I've got parse results, screenshots, and videos on youtube that can easily prove you wrong.
The problem with this thread is that everyone seems to think "maximum energy damage" and "maximum cannon rapid fire" is the only acceptable way to go. Sorry, but you're wrong.
3 DHCs and a torpedo will outdo 4 DHCs in STFs every time, if you're properly spec'd. Why? because the majority of targets in STFs spend little time with their shields up (many have no shields to begin with). Thus, running a quantum torpedo with a console and a copy or two of torpedo high yield will add far more damage to your overall then will adding an extra DHC (and the corresponding loss of a small amount of energy damage due to increased weapon power drain). You claim to have parsed the results; please do share them.
4DHCs + all phaser relays won't do you much good in PvP, either. A case could be made for 3 DHCs + 1 DBB + all phaser relays (for spike; Overload is a great way to go), but still, not 4 DHCs. Same story for ganking. Want a fun ganker? buy a Fleet Hoh'Sus or a Fleet T'Varo, run 2 DHCs with CRF1, a DBB with BO3, and a quantum with THY3 (three energy consoles, one torpedo console). You'll get a better gank-Alpha every time compared to 4 tactical consoles, 4 DHCs, and all-rapid-fire.
So no. You are wrong. All DHCs + all energy consoles is not the best way to go. Had you any experience or the ability to use a parser, you would not be making such a foolish claim.
1 quantum every 8 seconds vs a dhc that is constantly firing. Ya...the dhc will do more damage and should be boosted due to that reason
My cannon boat stays at 125 energy indefinitely through mostly luck on marion and a near constant uptime of on the omega weapon modifier, and plasmonic leech and batteries and eptw...i guess it stays high due to my set up but I digress.
I see dhc crits for 15k. That quantum doesn't stand a chance of catching up to the dhc. Maybe if I attack at the 10km mark, but cannons are made for up close and personal.
And stacking in an mmo has always been putting like equipment together to boost a common bonus.
So when you put a whole bunch of tact consoles together to boost a specific energy type. This would be called stacking. Remember, this is an mmo, not all real life words carry their definitions into the game.
We need someone with authority to put this thread to bed.
Where's havelock, drunk, vd or any other forum goer that carries certain guruism when you need them?
the authority are the devs, stowiki, ...that clearly state that only armor consoles in STO have a diminishing return.
and infact those don't even have a diminishing return, just the % resistance value at the end of the formula has.
and that formula is supposed to diminish resistance, otherwise people would reach 100% resistance.
The formula for DMG is additive and multiplicative, which means the curve is bend the opposite way than the resistance curve.
so the more the better when it comes to tac consoles, period.
No, no they don't stack. The term "stack" implies that each console "stacks" upon the previous console, taking the previous consoles effects into account. Please learn to understand terms before you attempt to correct other people who are using them properly.
Each console adds base damage, without taking the prior consoles effects into account. Thus, each tactical console has a "flat" effect; they do not stack.
Secondly, 4 DHCs and 5 phaser relays will not out-DPS 3 DHCs, 1 quantum launcher, 4 relays, and 1 quantum console, not if you have any idea what you are doing. I've got parse results, screenshots, and videos on youtube that can easily prove you wrong.
The problem with this thread is that everyone seems to think "maximum energy damage" and "maximum cannon rapid fire" is the only acceptable way to go. Sorry, but you're wrong.
3 DHCs and a torpedo will outdo 4 DHCs in STFs every time, if you're properly spec'd. Why? because the majority of targets in STFs spend little time with their shields up (many have no shields to begin with). Thus, running a quantum torpedo with a console and a copy or two of torpedo high yield will add far more damage to your overall then will adding an extra DHC (and the corresponding loss of a small amount of energy damage due to increased weapon power drain). You claim to have parsed the results; please do share them.
4DHCs + all phaser relays won't do you much good in PvP, either. A case could be made for 3 DHCs + 1 DBB + all phaser relays (for spike; Overload is a great way to go), but still, not 4 DHCs. Same story for ganking. Want a fun ganker? buy a Fleet Hoh'Sus or a Fleet T'Varo, run 2 DHCs with CRF1, a DBB with BO3, and a quantum with THY3 (three energy consoles, one torpedo console). You'll get a better gank-Alpha every time compared to 4 tactical consoles, 4 DHCs, and all-rapid-fire.
So no. You are wrong. All DHCs + all energy consoles is not the best way to go. Had you any experience or the ability to use a parser, you would not be making such a foolish claim.
In PvE this might be true. I say might because I never use parsers in PvE to determine if my damage is good. I know its good when the baddies dies at certain speeds. But in PvP it is hard to get torps to land on hull and so the prevailing opinion is go all energy consoles. Usually, I'll go all energy consoles and if I want to use torps I'll use KHG or adapted Maco to get a free torp console. The last time I used a bunch of torp consoles was with a Tricobombing B'rel.
And I completely agree with the DBB, 2DHC, 1 Torp for most alpha damage. Because of timing issues, however, most people go for all energy and skip the torps. I'll flop back and forth between 3DHC + BO, 3 DHC + torp, DBB + 2 DHC + torp. My experience is I do alot less damage in PvP with the DBB + 2 DHC + torp over the length of a match. But I get some very pretty fireworks despite the loss of overall DPS
the authority are the devs, stowiki, ...that clearly state that only armor consoles in STO have a diminishing return.
and infact those don't even have a diminishing return, just the % resistance value at the end of the formula has.
and that formula is supposed to diminish resistance, otherwise people would reach 100% resistance.
The formula for DMG is additive and multiplicative, which means the curve is bend the opposite way than the resistance curve.
so the more the better when it comes to tac consoles, period.
Sto wiki is open source...can't count it as 100% fact.
And I trust the findings of the stated individuals as much as a dev. Most people do when looking at the forums
No, no they don't stack. The term "stack" implies that each console "stacks" upon the previous console, taking the previous consoles effects into account. Please learn to understand terms before you attempt to correct other people who are using them properly.
Each console adds base damage, without taking the prior consoles effects into account. Thus, each tactical console has a "flat" effect; they do not stack.
Secondly, 4 DHCs and 5 phaser relays will not out-DPS 3 DHCs, 1 quantum launcher, 4 relays, and 1 quantum console, not if you have any idea what you are doing. I've got parse results, screenshots, and videos on youtube that can easily prove you wrong.
The problem with this thread is that everyone seems to think "maximum energy damage" and "maximum cannon rapid fire" is the only acceptable way to go. Sorry, but you're wrong.
3 DHCs and a torpedo will outdo 4 DHCs in STFs every time, if you're properly spec'd. Why? because the majority of targets in STFs spend little time with their shields up (many have no shields to begin with). Thus, running a quantum torpedo with a console and a copy or two of torpedo high yield will add far more damage to your overall then will adding an extra DHC (and the corresponding loss of a small amount of energy damage due to increased weapon power drain). You claim to have parsed the results; please do share them.
4DHCs + all phaser relays won't do you much good in PvP, either. A case could be made for 3 DHCs + 1 DBB + all phaser relays (for spike; Overload is a great way to go), but still, not 4 DHCs. Same story for ganking. Want a fun ganker? buy a Fleet Hoh'Sus or a Fleet T'Varo, run 2 DHCs with CRF1, a DBB with BO3, and a quantum with THY3 (three energy consoles, one torpedo console). You'll get a better gank-Alpha every time compared to 4 tactical consoles, 4 DHCs, and all-rapid-fire.
So no. You are wrong. All DHCs + all energy consoles is not the best way to go. Had you any experience or the ability to use a parser, you would not be making such a foolish claim.
Arguing on the internet is a little bit futile, but here goes. One torpedo? Really? No. Two quantums and three torp doffs backed up by adapted MACO 2p will be pretty on par. But your 1 torp simply is not. You are wrong. Period. I know it's hard to admit. Anyway I seriously doubt you have used a parser ever. If you have, prove me (and most actual parsers) wrong by posting your 3 dhc and 1 torp build that reaches 4 dhcs valid damage. I'll eat my words.
As to the definition of stacking, anyone who has ever played an mmo knows that when someone asks if something stacks they are asking if more than one of a thing does anything. So, no, it doesn't mean what you said. There's linear stacking and there's compound stacking. Both are stacking. Dmg consoles stack linearly. Please understand basic mechanics and parlance before deigning to lecture others. Thanks!
Also, for the record, played since beta. Your childish ad hominem attack has no basis in reality. Oh, and we are talking about pve here, not pvp. Pvp is entirely different, terrible, and practically unsupported by the devs. It doesnt matter even a little.
____________________________________________________
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
No, no they don't stack. The term "stack" implies that each console "stacks" upon the previous console, taking the previous consoles effects into account. Please learn to understand terms before you attempt to correct other people who are using them properly.
Each console adds base damage, without taking the prior consoles effects into account. Thus, each tactical console has a "flat" effect; they do not stack.
Secondly, 4 DHCs and 5 phaser relays will not out-DPS 3 DHCs, 1 quantum launcher, 4 relays, and 1 quantum console, not if you have any idea what you are doing. I've got parse results, screenshots, and videos on youtube that can easily prove you wrong.
The problem with this thread is that everyone seems to think "maximum energy damage" and "maximum cannon rapid fire" is the only acceptable way to go. Sorry, but you're wrong.
3 DHCs and a torpedo will outdo 4 DHCs in STFs every time, if you're properly spec'd. Why? because the majority of targets in STFs spend little time with their shields up (many have no shields to begin with). Thus, running a quantum torpedo with a console and a copy or two of torpedo high yield will add far more damage to your overall then will adding an extra DHC (and the corresponding loss of a small amount of energy damage due to increased weapon power drain). You claim to have parsed the results; please do share them.
4DHCs + all phaser relays won't do you much good in PvP, either. A case could be made for 3 DHCs + 1 DBB + all phaser relays (for spike; Overload is a great way to go), but still, not 4 DHCs. Same story for ganking. Want a fun ganker? buy a Fleet Hoh'Sus or a Fleet T'Varo, run 2 DHCs with CRF1, a DBB with BO3, and a quantum with THY3 (three energy consoles, one torpedo console). You'll get a better gank-Alpha every time compared to 4 tactical consoles, 4 DHCs, and all-rapid-fire.
So no. You are wrong. All DHCs + all energy consoles is not the best way to go. Had you any experience or the ability to use a parser, you would not be making such a foolish claim.
simply no...not even in ISE (where there are sooo many non shielded targets) a torp launcher will outdps a DHC.
All depends however on the weapon power level, if your ship can't support 4 DHC front, and the last shot is fired with less than 80 weapon power you may have a point...but still dps values stay clearly above a single torp launcher.
i can understand the DBB and 3 DHC for spike and alpha strikes, but not the torps. People (including me) use torps as a finisher, which works excellent against NPCs, but when PARSED they wind up much lower than a DHC in it's place.
i have yet to see a combat logg in which a torpedo out dpsed a DHC.
i'd wish you had a point with all your statements, but they are simply not how it is currently in this game.
I'd like the tac consoles to have some sort of diminishing return, to make single torpedo launchers more viable. As it is now, max DPS means all energy weapon and a way to keep weapon power up at all times.
also, on a sitenote, you should check what stacking means...if you stack bricks, they also add "only" a fixed amount of vertical distance, just as tac consoles do.
so, each consoles adds a flat number, that stacks with each additional console in a linear fashion.
No, no they don't stack. The term "stack" implies that each console "stacks" upon the previous console, taking the previous consoles effects into account. Please learn to understand terms before you attempt to correct other people who are using them properly.
Each console adds base damage, without taking the prior consoles effects into account. Thus, each tactical console has a "flat" effect; they do not stack.
Secondly, 4 DHCs and 5 phaser relays will not out-DPS 3 DHCs, 1 quantum launcher, 4 relays, and 1 quantum console, not if you have any idea what you are doing. I've got parse results, screenshots, and videos on youtube that can easily prove you wrong.
The problem with this thread is that everyone seems to think "maximum energy damage" and "maximum cannon rapid fire" is the only acceptable way to go. Sorry, but you're wrong.
3 DHCs and a torpedo will outdo 4 DHCs in STFs every time, if you're properly spec'd. Why? because the majority of targets in STFs spend little time with their shields up (many have no shields to begin with). Thus, running a quantum torpedo with a console and a copy or two of torpedo high yield will add far more damage to your overall then will adding an extra DHC (and the corresponding loss of a small amount of energy damage due to increased weapon power drain). You claim to have parsed the results; please do share them.
4DHCs + all phaser relays won't do you much good in PvP, either. A case could be made for 3 DHCs + 1 DBB + all phaser relays (for spike; Overload is a great way to go), but still, not 4 DHCs. Same story for ganking. Want a fun ganker? buy a Fleet Hoh'Sus or a Fleet T'Varo, run 2 DHCs with CRF1, a DBB with BO3, and a quantum with THY3 (three energy consoles, one torpedo console). You'll get a better gank-Alpha every time compared to 4 tactical consoles, 4 DHCs, and all-rapid-fire.
So no. You are wrong. All DHCs + all energy consoles is not the best way to go. Had you any experience or the ability to use a parser, you would not be making such a foolish claim.
I dispute this entire post.
Why? Because less than half of the targets in STFs actually are bare hull. All probes, spheres, cubes, tac cubes, bops, raptors, neghvars, unimatrices, queenie, and donatra have shields.
Your torp is useless vs those targets for the first several volleys of any fight (especially the bosses where their shield facings regenerate and distribute quickly)
All energy setups rock face in STFs. Only a very few guys in dps11k and dps20k get consistent torp results. The vast majority use pure energy loadouts with either cannons or BFAW. (i tend to listen quite well when people post or chat in a channel, and i know this statement is true)
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
For the record, there is a torp that can keep up with a DHC in damage output, but ONLY in KASE. And that's the Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo Launcher. And again, ONLY in KASE and ONLY before Donatra shows up. Very situational, very specific situation.
Of course it's also entirely possible that I just love the plasma congo line of torps. And it's blinding me to reality.
That's all.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
My weapons training and energy weapons skills are completely maxed out. Nothing else on my ship at the time the numbers were recorded.
I'll let someone with better math skills figure that out.
linear stacking of base damage.
now look at the percentage differences between each level...
0-1: 7.9%
1-2: 7.2%
2-3: 6.8%
3-4: 6.4%
4-5: 5.9%
the percentage difference in change between total damage for each level has reduced each time another weapon console is added.
what this should teach ppl is that weapon power is a more important modifier than weapon consoles. Also, in cases of cannons, dc's, dhc's, and turrets, per pulse modifiers have more of an effect than base damage does. boosting critical hit, critical severity, accuracy, ect.
I wonder...if everyone knew that consoles didnt truly boost damage the way they thought, if they would change up their setups to be more like cruisers...why do you think cruisers can manage to out DPS anything over a long period vs glass cannons?
I wonder if andorian escort captains started replacing their 4th and 5th weapon consoles with their unique consoles, how much of a bonus they would get?
now look at the percentage differences between each level...
0-1: 7.9%
1-2: 7.2%
2-3: 6.8%
3-4: 6.4%
4-5: 5.9%
the percentage difference in change between total damage for each level has reduced each time another weapon console is added.
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Its a smaller percentage each time because the pie (total) keeps growing. In order for the percentage to remain a constant or to grow would require the bonus per console to increase with each additional console, and that is totally nonsensical. Thats like asking a system to make more output than it received in inputs. The enemy isn't going to hurt because a percentage increase of damages between each additional console, but the raw damage itself. In the case of adding 5 consoles, 359 additional points.
Looking at percentage gains, unless the differences are not on a in accordance with a regression curve, on a growing sum is like comparing apples to oranges. If My boss gave me a 1000 dollar pay raise two years ago, and a 1000 pay raise last year, I am not going complain that the 1000 dollar pay raise I got this year is a lower percentage increase of the sums than in years prior. ( I might argue inflationary influences on my buying power, but still)
Maybe i really should a math for beginners thread. So sad - guess its those guys thinking "why would i ever need math" and now they cant even do the simplest stuff i learned at like 7th grade or something.
If you take 100 and increase by 100 to 200 its a 100% increase. If you then add another 100 to the 200 you'll be at 300, but its only a 50% increase this time. Got it?
Maybe i really should a math for beginners thread. So sad - guess its those guys thinking "why would i ever need math" and now they cant even do the simplest stuff i learned at like 7th grade or something.
If you take 100 and increase by 100 to 200 its a 100% increase. If you then add another 100 to the 200 you'll be at 300, but its only a 50% increase this time. Got it?
Enough, you aren't reading what we're saying. We are saying that 100 is still 100 no matter what. We are not talking about the total.
Diminishing returns have always been about the equipment. Not the final total.
If your first piece adds 100 and your second adds 50, that is diminishing returns in a mmo.
If both add 100, there is no diminished return and they stack fine.
Just stop talking. Your making a fool of yourself. Can't you see your making a fool of yourself. It is you that lacks reading comprehension, no us that lack arithmetic.
I only read the last page and had a good lol at those calculations. Dont know what you're talking about.
If its just because of the meaning of the word stack at least to me it means that stuff is working at the same time like the embassy consoles. Dont care about possible other meanings^^ when i have 3 consoles adding 100 and using all 3 gives me 300 they stack.
When all this trouble is just about the word stack do what we mathematicians do:
Introduce stack_1 and stack_2. One can have your meaning, the other theirs and all can go home happily.
And i'm not to stupid to read or understand anything, once you get through the theorema egregium nothing any mmo can do really challanges you. Mmos are basically on the elementar school lvl. I just dont care about the weeoo and angry and whee serious discussion lol. Just wanted to have some fun and troll a tiny tinsy bit.
I am deeply sorry if you feel offended by me giving you a math lecture. Maybe this one helps more;P
Comments
I use ACT. I know how consoles work. I am sad enough (I really am) to spend hours sitting in orbit of a planet slotting and unslotting consoles, checking and rechecking the numbers.
My comment was alluding to the fact that many people hear something not quite true, or outright made up, and proceed to preach it as (the one true) gospel. When they are challenged, they throw a hissy fit. A bit like those people who say that you absolutely must have someone babysit the Kang...
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
Anyone reading it is going to be confused as hell.
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Its not diminsihing returns its opportunity cost that you are going for. I get your going for an economics argument of the investment of the 4th or 5th energy console. But this isn't real world this is Cryptic world. Engineering consoles do have diminishing returns, while tac consoles do not. Furthermore, this game is all about pew pew alpha damage in PvP and pew pew DPS in pve. Because of the game mechanics nothing is as valuable as more damage from your phasers/disruptors. If you want that universal console, put it in place of science or engineer console. Ships are rated in PvP based on how many tac consoles they can slot for a reason :eek: Get with the program and stop fist fighting a tsunami. More damage = better escort. And this game is all about the escorts in escorts online.
There are really only 3 types of people here.
Those who are right, those who are wrong, and those who are just being pedantic. It is the people in the 3rd group, like Torvin, who risk causing confusion.
Completly true, thats the reason why I do not slot anything else than tactical consoles in tactical places. But with more upcoming content, I guess we will have more universal consoles to choose from. I have right now 4 universal consoles increasing my crtH or crtD plus plasmonic leach. One more and I would have to calc for the first time if is better to use a tactical or an additional universal console on certain ships.
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Fleet Admiral Rylana - Fed Tac - U.S.S Wild Card - Tactical Miracle Worker Cruiser
Lifetime Subscriber since 2012 == 17,200 Accolades = RIP PvP and Vice Squad
Chief of Starfleet Intelligence Service == Praise Cheesus
Weapon Power @ 103
Fleet Plasma Dual Heavy Cannons: [Dmgx3] [Acc]
Mk XII Very Rare Plasma Infusers
5 = 1204 DPS
4 = 1132 DPS
3 = 1060 DPS
2 = 988 DPS
1 = 917 DPS
0 = 845 DPS
My weapons training and energy weapons skills are completely maxed out. Nothing else on my ship at the time the numbers were recorded.
I'll let someone with better math skills figure that out.
72 is the common factor, no diminishing returns
What does a lower Mk look like?
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
Mk XII Rare (28.1%):
5 = 1181 DPS
4 = 1114 DPS
3 = 1047 DPS
2 = 979 DPS
1 = 912 DPS
Evidently that's 67 stacking damage
My PvE/PvP hybrid skill tree
I did, lol - Although on the way to the shipyard I couldn't remember if I still had them.
Unfortunately, I don't have anything lower than a Mk XII DHC, the stats for those:
Mk XII Plasma Dual Heavy Cannons [CrtD] [Dmgx2] - (Note the difference between Dmgx3 and these):
Mk XII Very Rare Plasma Infusers:
5 - 1186 DPS
4 - 1114 DPS
3 - 1042 DPS
2 - 970 DPS
1 - 899 DPS
0 - 827 DPS
Mk XII Rare Plasma Infusers:
5 - 1163 DPS
4 - 1096 DPS
3 - 1029 DPS
2 - 961 DPS
1 - 894 DPS
0 - 827 DPS
No it isn't. Law of diminishing returns isn't based off of a percentage of increase, its what you are getting output-wise in regards to units (utility, units produced, dps, etc.).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns
(Even though the link is for an economic term, it still satisfies the scientific expression)
LDR is something like this:
utility value for "x" = 10
1x=10 (+10 utlis)
2x=19 (+9 utils)
3x=28 (+8 utils)
4x=36 (+7 utils)
The "hard value" is what is truly measured in diminishing returns, not the percentage value because the percentage rate of change is exponential (and regressive), not linear.
No, no they don't stack. The term "stack" implies that each console "stacks" upon the previous console, taking the previous consoles effects into account. Please learn to understand terms before you attempt to correct other people who are using them properly.
Each console adds base damage, without taking the prior consoles effects into account. Thus, each tactical console has a "flat" effect; they do not stack.
Secondly, 4 DHCs and 5 phaser relays will not out-DPS 3 DHCs, 1 quantum launcher, 4 relays, and 1 quantum console, not if you have any idea what you are doing. I've got parse results, screenshots, and videos on youtube that can easily prove you wrong.
The problem with this thread is that everyone seems to think "maximum energy damage" and "maximum cannon rapid fire" is the only acceptable way to go. Sorry, but you're wrong.
3 DHCs and a torpedo will outdo 4 DHCs in STFs every time, if you're properly spec'd. Why? because the majority of targets in STFs spend little time with their shields up (many have no shields to begin with). Thus, running a quantum torpedo with a console and a copy or two of torpedo high yield will add far more damage to your overall then will adding an extra DHC (and the corresponding loss of a small amount of energy damage due to increased weapon power drain). You claim to have parsed the results; please do share them.
4DHCs + all phaser relays won't do you much good in PvP, either. A case could be made for 3 DHCs + 1 DBB + all phaser relays (for spike; Overload is a great way to go), but still, not 4 DHCs. Same story for ganking. Want a fun ganker? buy a Fleet Hoh'Sus or a Fleet T'Varo, run 2 DHCs with CRF1, a DBB with BO3, and a quantum with THY3 (three energy consoles, one torpedo console). You'll get a better gank-Alpha every time compared to 4 tactical consoles, 4 DHCs, and all-rapid-fire.
So no. You are wrong. All DHCs + all energy consoles is not the best way to go. Had you any experience or the ability to use a parser, you would not be making such a foolish claim.
My cannon boat stays at 125 energy indefinitely through mostly luck on marion and a near constant uptime of on the omega weapon modifier, and plasmonic leech and batteries and eptw...i guess it stays high due to my set up but I digress.
I see dhc crits for 15k. That quantum doesn't stand a chance of catching up to the dhc. Maybe if I attack at the 10km mark, but cannons are made for up close and personal.
And stacking in an mmo has always been putting like equipment together to boost a common bonus.
So when you put a whole bunch of tact consoles together to boost a specific energy type. This would be called stacking. Remember, this is an mmo, not all real life words carry their definitions into the game.
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Where's havelock, drunk, vd or any other forum goer that carries certain guruism when you need them?
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the authority are the devs, stowiki, ...that clearly state that only armor consoles in STO have a diminishing return.
and infact those don't even have a diminishing return, just the % resistance value at the end of the formula has.
and that formula is supposed to diminish resistance, otherwise people would reach 100% resistance.
The formula for DMG is additive and multiplicative, which means the curve is bend the opposite way than the resistance curve.
so the more the better when it comes to tac consoles, period.
In PvE this might be true. I say might because I never use parsers in PvE to determine if my damage is good. I know its good when the baddies dies at certain speeds. But in PvP it is hard to get torps to land on hull and so the prevailing opinion is go all energy consoles. Usually, I'll go all energy consoles and if I want to use torps I'll use KHG or adapted Maco to get a free torp console. The last time I used a bunch of torp consoles was with a Tricobombing B'rel.
And I completely agree with the DBB, 2DHC, 1 Torp for most alpha damage. Because of timing issues, however, most people go for all energy and skip the torps. I'll flop back and forth between 3DHC + BO, 3 DHC + torp, DBB + 2 DHC + torp. My experience is I do alot less damage in PvP with the DBB + 2 DHC + torp over the length of a match. But I get some very pretty fireworks despite the loss of overall DPS
Sto wiki is open source...can't count it as 100% fact.
And I trust the findings of the stated individuals as much as a dev. Most people do when looking at the forums
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Arguing on the internet is a little bit futile, but here goes. One torpedo? Really? No. Two quantums and three torp doffs backed up by adapted MACO 2p will be pretty on par. But your 1 torp simply is not. You are wrong. Period. I know it's hard to admit. Anyway I seriously doubt you have used a parser ever. If you have, prove me (and most actual parsers) wrong by posting your 3 dhc and 1 torp build that reaches 4 dhcs valid damage. I'll eat my words.
As to the definition of stacking, anyone who has ever played an mmo knows that when someone asks if something stacks they are asking if more than one of a thing does anything. So, no, it doesn't mean what you said. There's linear stacking and there's compound stacking. Both are stacking. Dmg consoles stack linearly. Please understand basic mechanics and parlance before deigning to lecture others. Thanks!
Also, for the record, played since beta. Your childish ad hominem attack has no basis in reality. Oh, and we are talking about pve here, not pvp. Pvp is entirely different, terrible, and practically unsupported by the devs. It doesnt matter even a little.
Pay no attention to the dates and titles under my name at the left! I am a Career Officer, Lifetime Sub since launch, was in the Beta. Having problems with my forum account.
simply no...not even in ISE (where there are sooo many non shielded targets) a torp launcher will outdps a DHC.
All depends however on the weapon power level, if your ship can't support 4 DHC front, and the last shot is fired with less than 80 weapon power you may have a point...but still dps values stay clearly above a single torp launcher.
i can understand the DBB and 3 DHC for spike and alpha strikes, but not the torps. People (including me) use torps as a finisher, which works excellent against NPCs, but when PARSED they wind up much lower than a DHC in it's place.
i have yet to see a combat logg in which a torpedo out dpsed a DHC.
i'd wish you had a point with all your statements, but they are simply not how it is currently in this game.
I'd like the tac consoles to have some sort of diminishing return, to make single torpedo launchers more viable. As it is now, max DPS means all energy weapon and a way to keep weapon power up at all times.
also, on a sitenote, you should check what stacking means...if you stack bricks, they also add "only" a fixed amount of vertical distance, just as tac consoles do.
so, each consoles adds a flat number, that stacks with each additional console in a linear fashion.
I dispute this entire post.
Why? Because less than half of the targets in STFs actually are bare hull. All probes, spheres, cubes, tac cubes, bops, raptors, neghvars, unimatrices, queenie, and donatra have shields.
Your torp is useless vs those targets for the first several volleys of any fight (especially the bosses where their shield facings regenerate and distribute quickly)
Or are you disputing my parsing skills?
http://i.imgur.com/IBpcX6a.jpg
All energy setups rock face in STFs. Only a very few guys in dps11k and dps20k get consistent torp results. The vast majority use pure energy loadouts with either cannons or BFAW. (i tend to listen quite well when people post or chat in a channel, and i know this statement is true)
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Of course it's also entirely possible that I just love the plasma congo line of torps. And it's blinding me to reality.
That's all.
linear stacking of base damage.
now look at the percentage differences between each level...
0-1: 7.9%
1-2: 7.2%
2-3: 6.8%
3-4: 6.4%
4-5: 5.9%
the percentage difference in change between total damage for each level has reduced each time another weapon console is added.
what this should teach ppl is that weapon power is a more important modifier than weapon consoles. Also, in cases of cannons, dc's, dhc's, and turrets, per pulse modifiers have more of an effect than base damage does. boosting critical hit, critical severity, accuracy, ect.
I wonder...if everyone knew that consoles didnt truly boost damage the way they thought, if they would change up their setups to be more like cruisers...why do you think cruisers can manage to out DPS anything over a long period vs glass cannons?
I wonder if andorian escort captains started replacing their 4th and 5th weapon consoles with their unique consoles, how much of a bonus they would get?
72 damage is still 72 damage. Each subsequent console is just as valuable as the previous.
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Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Its a smaller percentage each time because the pie (total) keeps growing. In order for the percentage to remain a constant or to grow would require the bonus per console to increase with each additional console, and that is totally nonsensical. Thats like asking a system to make more output than it received in inputs. The enemy isn't going to hurt because a percentage increase of damages between each additional console, but the raw damage itself. In the case of adding 5 consoles, 359 additional points.
Looking at percentage gains, unless the differences are not on a in accordance with a regression curve, on a growing sum is like comparing apples to oranges. If My boss gave me a 1000 dollar pay raise two years ago, and a 1000 pay raise last year, I am not going complain that the 1000 dollar pay raise I got this year is a lower percentage increase of the sums than in years prior. ( I might argue inflationary influences on my buying power, but still)
If you take 100 and increase by 100 to 200 its a 100% increase. If you then add another 100 to the 200 you'll be at 300, but its only a 50% increase this time. Got it?
Enough, you aren't reading what we're saying. We are saying that 100 is still 100 no matter what. We are not talking about the total.
Diminishing returns have always been about the equipment. Not the final total.
If your first piece adds 100 and your second adds 50, that is diminishing returns in a mmo.
If both add 100, there is no diminished return and they stack fine.
Just stop talking. Your making a fool of yourself. Can't you see your making a fool of yourself. It is you that lacks reading comprehension, no us that lack arithmetic.
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If its just because of the meaning of the word stack at least to me it means that stuff is working at the same time like the embassy consoles. Dont care about possible other meanings^^ when i have 3 consoles adding 100 and using all 3 gives me 300 they stack.
When all this trouble is just about the word stack do what we mathematicians do:
Introduce stack_1 and stack_2. One can have your meaning, the other theirs and all can go home happily.
And i'm not to stupid to read or understand anything, once you get through the theorema egregium nothing any mmo can do really challanges you. Mmos are basically on the elementar school lvl. I just dont care about the weeoo and angry and whee serious discussion lol. Just wanted to have some fun and troll a tiny tinsy bit.
I am deeply sorry if you feel offended by me giving you a math lecture. Maybe this one helps more;P