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Emergency Power to Engines needs to be toned down.

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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Your acting like the only thing that changed with LOR (or there abouts) is EPTE... and its not.

    There is no deflection you can't really be that dense. The EPTx where changed because everyone agreeed pre LOR that there was no point in running any of the other EPTx. So Cryptic decided to buff them... BOPS running away with EPTE or Engine batts is nothing new... don't act like that didn't happen before LOR cause it did all the time.

    Many things have changed in the last 4 or 5 months... one Chronitons where nerfed hard... not sure why you are still running them.

    Frannkly pre LOR bops ran out of gravity well all the time... people have been QQing about GW for 2 years.

    I'm sorry EPTE is not the problem... it is at last a viable alternative to EPTS...

    So you got frustrated when a bop used his F U button and ran away.

    They get frustrated every time you ETPS and tac team. ;)

    I play a bop all the time still and I don't get fustrated over epts and tac team, I take it for granted that it will be up. My BO3 will crit through that on most people, epte will be more likely to save them by breaking my tractor and giving them def bonus so the crit is less likely to happen, or possibly a complete miss. Def bonus is more powerful then the shield resist given by epts by itself which doesn't get you near the resist cap, but epte breaking a hold can mean the difference between 0 def bonus and max def bonus. Shield resist become more of a problem only when other stuff is stacked on top of epts like tss, es, and elite shields, so that is where shield resists need to be looked at, not epts.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • trekkietravistrekkietravis Member Posts: 214 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    EptE is finally a viable power. There is no need to change it. Same with EptW and EptA.

    Ironic seeing people complaining about EptE being so overpowered it prevents then from running 2 copies of EptS...and which BOff skill is overpowered again? =P
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I never called for a EPTS nerf.. .I just pointed out that logic would dictate if you nerf one of the eptx cause its to powerful cause people use it to survive... EPTS should follow... as more people use it to survive and in MOST cases to better effect.

    I get that you been around the block as well... EPTE counters a bunch of stuff no doubt. Its hardly god mode I break everything though. I wish it was I would drop my PH and My Omega (well perhaps keep the omega). lol

    EPTE is just part of a stay moving stradagy... I don't find it to powerful... and most people combo epte with other speed buffs.

    Anyway you know my thoughts on it ... EPTE is fine just as it is.

    Power Creep is the issue that is driving you nuts... if someone is in a tractor... they can now break it with 50% uptime on omega... if that isn't an option well as you say defense is an issue... but again its not ETPE ... its a bunch of stacked boff passives that is giving them +20 defense just sitting still.

    You can point at defense and make a logical argument for there being to much of it... but the speed buff isn't the issue... speed defense is hard capped. However we now have ways to get 30s evasives with out burning doffs slots... and through doffs we can keep our immunities like Omega up 50% of the time. (I have seen some people running Omega + doffs + PH for 100% tractor immunity). I would say to you its all this other creep junk that is the issue... not the boff skill.

    PS... if people popping all the BS skills like tac team doesn't drive you nuts why does epte + evasive ? because they end up 50k away ?
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Mostly because it continued to emphasize spike, and further marginalize cruisers.

    Full uptime with lower resistance is a better design for less yo-yo mechanics IMO.

    ... snip ...

    But, it's not full uptime w/lower effects. It's full uptime w/large effects. How is 100% spike uptime a good thing?

    I'm still not seeing how it would have hurt cruisers to have eptx unchainable. They're still most capably of 20 sec+rsps, massive power across the board aiding in regen, repairs and resists, so they're most suited to take the spike damage. They would also be able to apply AoE damage to all those spikers who now have wholes in their defenses and less ability to sustain a defense under that pressure.
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  • p2wsucksp2wsucks Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I never called for a EPTS nerf.. .I just pointed out that logic would dictate if you nerf one of the eptx cause its to powerful cause people use it to survive... EPTS should follow... as more people use it to survive and in MOST cases to better effect.

    I get that you been around the block as well... EPTE counters a bunch of stuff no doubt. Its hardly god mode I break everything though. I wish it was I would drop my PH and My Omega (well perhaps keep the omega). lol

    EPTE is just part of a stay moving stradagy... I don't find it to powerful... and most people combo epte with other speed buffs.

    Anyway you know my thoughts on it ... EPTE is fine just as it is.

    Power Creep is the issue that is driving you nuts... if someone is in a tractor... they can now break it with 50% uptime on omega... if that isn't an option well as you say defense is an issue... but again its not ETPE ... its a bunch of stacked boff passives that is giving them +20 defense just sitting still.

    You can point at defense and make a logical argument for there being to much of it... but the speed buff isn't the issue... speed defense is hard capped. However we now have ways to get 30s evasives with out burning doffs slots... and through doffs we can keep our immunities like Omega up 50% of the time. (I have seen some people running Omega + doffs + PH for 100% tractor immunity). I would say to you its all this other creep junk that is the issue... not the boff skill.

    PS... if people popping all the BS skills like tac team doesn't drive you nuts why does epte + evasive ? because they end up 50k away ?


    There are other issues w/it. W/the high speeds it's more often an effect reverts and doesn't take effect if there's any kind of latency then there was before. What was in range when the effect was used was determined after the fact to be out of range. This is very annoying when the cooldown doesn't reset back to zero.

    This has a similar effect to weapon damage which is dependent on range and can greatly reduce the damage based on the calculation instead of say 4km when fired, is 9km b/c of the latency and high speed of the target.

    The target can also avoid damage and cc much easier by staying out of arcs. Yes, the turning arc may get higher, but a quick j-turn or temp lowering throttle while turning then back to full throttle takes care of that.

    It's even effective when at full impulse which I think is new post LoR, at least I don't remember getting a speed boost from using EPtE at full impulse before.
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    EptE is finally a viable power. There is no need to change it. Same with EptW and EptA.

    Ironic seeing people complaining about EptE being so overpowered it prevents then from running 2 copies of EptS...and which BOff skill is overpowered again? =P
    Its way too viable where it has become must have.
    I never called for a EPTS nerf.. .I just pointed out that logic would dictate if you nerf one of the eptx cause its to powerful cause people use it to survive... EPTS should follow... as more people use it to survive and in MOST cases to better effect.

    I get that you been around the block as well... EPTE counters a bunch of stuff no doubt. Its hardly god mode I break everything though. I wish it was I would drop my PH and My Omega (well perhaps keep the omega). lol

    EPTE is just part of a stay moving stradagy... I don't find it to powerful... and most people combo epte with other speed buffs.

    Anyway you know my thoughts on it ... EPTE is fine just as it is.

    Power Creep is the issue that is driving you nuts... if someone is in a tractor... they can now break it with 50% uptime on omega... if that isn't an option well as you say defense is an issue... but again its not ETPE ... its a bunch of stacked boff passives that is giving them +20 defense just sitting still.

    You can point at defense and make a logical argument for there being to much of it... but the speed buff isn't the issue... speed defense is hard capped. However we now have ways to get 30s evasives with out burning doffs slots... and through doffs we can keep our immunities like Omega up 50% of the time. (I have seen some people running Omega + doffs + PH for 100% tractor immunity). I would say to you its all this other creep junk that is the issue... not the boff skill.

    PS... if people popping all the BS skills like tac team doesn't drive you nuts why does epte + evasive ? because they end up 50k away ?

    People could always have 50% uptime on omega by running 2x omega or ever since the gamma quadrant doffs came out over a year ago I think, and neither have been touched at all since then so I doubt that will change, however epte change was more recent. The change is so extreme, it trashed most of my pre LoR builds because you have to run epte to keep up with other escorts in dogfights, to be able to outrun people when fleeing or chasing someone, where as before LoR you didn't have to run epte and could still do this stuff. Its like having 2 or 3 doff slots stolen from you. I'm used to dealing with tac team and epts and having to run them, but this one more thing we are being forced to run and I'm tired of having limited choices when building my ships. Undoing the buff epte was given in LoR will make it still a good optional choice, just not mandatory.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • hroothvitnirhroothvitnir Member Posts: 322
    edited September 2013
    Added to the issue is with the helmsman trait, redone rcs and new neutronium consoles a ship can actually use all that speed, I'm messing about with a vesta that runs at 38 turnrate before I hit APO/A, and fast turning ships are just simply absurd. I made a speed freak Corvette that has triple digit turnrate with tac buffs and easily stays inside of the arches of DS9 at 250+ impulse. Before that was sole territory of klingon Bops. Use to be all speed was good for was running to or from a fight.

    For a humorous nerf leave its speed as is but make it add 30 inertia as well, sort of a say hello to Newton for me.
  • alopenalopen Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    PS... if people popping all the BS skills like tac team doesn't drive you nuts why does epte + evasive ? because they end up 50k away ?

    Because I want to play Star Trek and not some flight simulator. EptE makes ships way to damn fast. Torps, which were questionable pre-LoR, are now useless. Ships are easily outrunning cannons. A BoP in reverse with EptE can now outrun borg ships :rolleyes: Cryptic needs to slow the game down. If they insist on current speeds then vastly increase weapon travel times. Out running cannon fire is even more dumb than KDF and Feds flying Dominion ships against each other.

    Now because you brought it up earlier, I agree TT is over-powered. But only because manually doing the same thing is so much slower. EptS is not OP by itself. Only when stacked with TT + ES/TSS. Imagine shield power at 15 or 25 and then using EptS1 while taking fire. Thats not going to save you. Now have Shield power at 80/90 and doing the same thing that will help. WptW/WptA are in the same boat. They compliment your power in the system. EptE negates just about all holds all by itself and renders putting points in engine power unnecessary, so it is OP.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    deokkent wrote: »
    I have to disagree. EptE on its own doesn't do anything, it is definitely not OP. I should know, I tried.
    You have to consider turn rate and other speed buffs, that's when things get out of hand.
    edalgo wrote: »
    I think EPTE got a stealth nerf slightly in regards to escaping holds.

    Yes it used to allow you to escape anything but now it's takes a little more.

    Funny I am still running through tractor beams, grav wells, and tractor mines like they aren't even there in a ship only using epte1 and no aux2ID, and am able to do this when omega is on cd. Someone was able to consistently hold me today with tractors but this takes higher level tractor beam, graviton generator spec and consoles, and high aux. An ensign level skill that you dont even have to spec into like epte shouldnt require a lt cmdr skill like tb3 and full spec and consoles to beat it, thats op.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The Ensign level counter is pretty standard in STO... why should Tractor beam be immune to this.

    Tractor is countered by PH 1 Completely... and EPTE mostly negates it, it in that it helps people get outside the 5k range.

    I don't see any issue with that.

    If we are going to go off on Ensign level counters.

    There are many more ensign level counters that 100% cure things.

    How about Hazards 1 clearing Siphen 3... or Eject Warp Plasma 3... or Tykens 3.

    EPTE isn't a hard counter its a soft one.

    Frankly tractor beams with Zero spend in Graviton shouldn't hold anything at all imo.

    Why is it that so many people think there 100% unspeced stuff should work perfectly all the time... even when there target is running soft and or hard counters ?
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The Ensign level counter is pretty standard in STO... why should Tractor beam be immune to this.

    Tractor is countered by PH 1 Completely... and EPTE mostly negates it, it in that it helps people get outside the 5k range.

    I don't see any issue with that.

    If we are going to go off on Ensign level counters.

    There are many more ensign level counters that 100% cure things.

    How about Hazards 1 clearing Siphen 3... or Eject Warp Plasma 3... or Tykens 3.

    EPTE isn't a hard counter its a soft one.

    Frankly tractor beams with Zero spend in Graviton shouldn't hold anything at all imo.

    Why is it that so many people think there 100% unspeced stuff should work perfectly all the time... even when there target is running soft and or hard counters ?
    hazzards or ph cant have 100% uptime though. I am ok with a soft counter as long as its a little softer then it is now. My 60-70 graviton skill mostly from my deflector and consoles should be enough to negate epte1 with tb1, but it isn't usually.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    hazzards or ph cant have 100% uptime though. I am ok with a soft counter as long as its a little softer then it is now. My 60-70 graviton skill mostly from my deflector and consoles should be enough to negate epte1 with tb1, but it isn't usually.

    Yes thats true EPTE can be kept up 100%... but its not a hard counter its a soft counter.

    Very soft because the only resisting it is doing is by increasing the speed at which you can pull away from things like GW and Tractor. (unless you are using the doff that increases your resist I guess)

    As for Hazards and PH... with 2 copies or aux to bat they have close to 70% up time....

    Omega has 50% up time with doffs.

    Omega + PH these days and you are 100% immune to Tractors hard counter like not just the soft speed counter.

    I do understand your point... that it can easily be ran 100% of the time these days... I am just saying its the nature of STO... where hard counters have super short cool downs... that with doffs these days have almost no cool down.

    So if your hard counters are up for 30s every 45s... what is reasonable for a counter that barely qualifies as a Soft one.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    So if your hard counters are up for 30s every 45s... what is reasonable for a counter that barely qualifies as a Soft one.

    That raises another point, there are already too much counters to cc that can be up as it is already, epte being up full time makes it worse, maybe some of those should be looked at as well if epte isn't scaled back enough, like granting resistance that would be based on spec and speed instead of 100% complete immunity.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • antoniosalieriantoniosalieri Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    marc8219 wrote: »
    That raises another point, there are already too much counters to cc that can be up as it is already, epte being up full time makes it worse, maybe some of those should be looked at as well if epte isn't scaled back enough, like granting resistance that would be based on spec and speed instead of 100% complete immunity.

    Well there are skill tree counters... to be honest I don't think they work right. We should be careful what we wish for if Cryptic ever fixes I Damp spec I think we will all be complaining about our 100% useless tractors.

    For the CC stuff though... I do get what Crytpic is going for... People in general freaking hate CC to death.

    I know I used to run a hold bop... and I used to team with a friend that did the same... we ran the bops with no Tac officers on the ships at all... it was all Dual Tractors GW VM Warp Plasmas ect.... in a lot of ways the amount of CC we have in this game feels like a total troll.

    So I get that they have added a ton of counters.

    What I would like to see more of in general is counters that make snese and open you up to other CC.... we have some of that now... but we still have some skills (Hazards looking at the wonder skill here) .... that simply counter way to much.

    Awhile back I had put forward an idea where the Teams (Tac Sci Engi) would be decoupled from there globals... and have them act as the main counters. With Engi Team countering thinigs like Eject Warp plasma... and Sci team countering things like Viral Matrix. With no global cool downs to lockout clears.

    In general though ya the entire system is a little borked. EPTE is a very soft counter and I don't see any major issues with it still... but I understand the frustration... CC in general doesn't work in this game all that well..... or to put it a better way.... CC works in this game way to well... OR not at all. Just specing most of the Sci defense skills negate the majority of the games CC skills.

    The entire thing could use a going over... at this point though I doubt Cryptic does anything major.
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  • rylanadionysisrylanadionysis Member Posts: 3,359 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Just take five scis and subnuke the hell out of them. over and over and over and over and over
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  • havamhavam Member Posts: 1,735 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Well there are skill tree counters... to be honest I don't think they work right. We should be careful what we wish for if Cryptic ever fixes I Damp spec I think we will all be complaining about our 100% useless tractors.

    For the CC stuff though... I do get what Crytpic is going for... People in general freaking hate CC to death.

    I know I used to run a hold bop... and I used to team with a friend that did the same... we ran the bops with no Tac officers on the ships at all... it was all Dual Tractors GW VM Warp Plasmas ect.... in a lot of ways the amount of CC we have in this game feels like a total troll.

    So I get that they have added a ton of counters.

    What I would like to see more of in general is counters that make snese and open you up to other CC.... we have some of that now... but we still have some skills (Hazards looking at the wonder skill here) .... that simply counter way to much.

    Awhile back I had put forward an idea where the Teams (Tac Sci Engi) would be decoupled from there globals... and have them act as the main counters. With Engi Team countering thinigs like Eject Warp plasma... and Sci team countering things like Viral Matrix. With no global cool downs to lockout clears.

    In general though ya the entire system is a little borked. EPTE is a very soft counter and I don't see any major issues with it still... but I understand the frustration... CC in general doesn't work in this game all that well..... or to put it a better way.... CC works in this game way to well... OR not at all. Just specing most of the Sci defense skills negate the majority of the games CC skills.

    The entire thing could use a going over... at this point though I doubt Cryptic does anything major.

    Dont forget doff'ed up APO3. I swear one day it ll include counters to drain, snb, and what not so that those evil NWS mobs don't disturb the zen of the escorts pilots under 10 min record runs.
  • masterkeychnk5masterkeychnk5 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    The Ensign level counter is pretty standard in STO... why should Tractor beam be immune to this.

    Tractor is countered by PH 1 Completely... and EPTE mostly negates it, it in that it helps people get outside the 5k range.

    I don't see any issue with that.

    If we are going to go off on Ensign level counters.

    There are many more ensign level counters that 100% cure things.

    How about Hazards 1 clearing Siphen 3... or Eject Warp Plasma 3... or Tykens 3.

    EPTE isn't a hard counter its a soft one.

    Frankly tractor beams with Zero spend in Graviton shouldn't hold anything at all imo.

    Why is it that so many people think there 100% unspeced stuff should work perfectly all the time... even when there target is running soft and or hard counters ?

    Honestly tho, higher ranks should also increase the strength a little bit more, it does _NOT_.

    Ok. spoil a whole Leituenant or Lieutenant ocmmander for a few secs more tractor? thats dumb. Increase the strenght on rank upping too.

    In that case nothing on EptE needs changed and investing anything higher then TB1 is finally worth something.
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  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    I agree tractor beam 2 or 3 needs the hold to be beefed up. Tractor beam 1 should still do more against epte1 though, especially if you have more points in gravitons then the target has in inertial dampers then maybe it will be more worth it to slot higher epte more instead of just having epte1 immune to everything. Also you should need more then epte1 to move around in grav well.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • whamhammer1whamhammer1 Member Posts: 2,290 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Is it my imagination or is it no longer possible to have engine batteries and Deuterium Tanks on escorts? And I have never seen an escort have problems keeping up with cruisers.
  • marc8219marc8219 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2013
    Is it my imagination or is it no longer possible to have engine batteries and Deuterium Tanks on escorts? And I have never seen an escort have problems keeping up with cruisers.

    I'm pretty sure you can but most use a subspace field mod so only 1 battery. Cruisers have more device slots but lower impulse modifier and worse inertia, also many of them can't use attack pattern omega for another speed buff, also the ones that can slot it can only slot 1 copy so need aux2battery or attack pattern doffs to use it as often as an escort can.

    The main reason why you won't notice all that much speed difference though is because of EPTE, most likely both the escort and cruiser are running it, and keeping it up 100% of time, all the other speed buffs like omega and deutrium only last a short time so don't make nearly as much of a difference as the overpowered epte.
    Tala -KDF Tac- House of Beautiful Orions
  • jellico1jellico1 Member Posts: 2,719
    edited September 2013
    If they reduce the strength of the EPTE buff... then they can reduce the EPTS strength as well... I'm fine with that.

    50% off the EPTE buff... and 50% off the EPTS buff...

    Sounds good.


    Also reduse energy weapons damage by 50% and speed while cloaked by 75%

    Thats sounds good too
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