Groovy, it still doesn't change the fact that premades VS. pugs are keeping over 90% of the players away from PVP.
Yes it does. If you outlawed premades, it would make no difference; because good players would continue to work together, and achieve much the same results regardless.
Heck, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if half the teams that seem to have so soured you on STO's PvP were not in fact premades at all; just skilled players who were willing to work together.
Public queues should be randomized teams. Just red team vs blue team, randomly assigned. These things are OORP anyway, so there is not even any good reason for FvK in these things. Pick a match type, and kill the other team.
If teams want organized fleet warfare, let them use one of the channels to arrange private matches.
Option three, would be to have in-RP combat that was actually meaningful to end-game content, aka minefield control, starbase control, stuff like that.
Yes it does. If you outlawed premades, it would make no difference; because good players would continue to work together, and achieve much the same results regardless.
Heck, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if half the teams that seem to have so soured you on STO's PvP were not in fact premades at all; just skilled players who were willing to work together.
A) Nobody is going to outlaw your premade teams.
Getting on teamspeak and calling out the next target for everyone to focus fire at doesn't make you "good".
Groovy, it still doesn't change the fact that premades VS. pugs are keeping over 90% of the players away from PVP.
I can't disagree with this enough.
It has nothing to do with the Premades. If anything, the Premades are doing some folks a favor.
The folks that still PvP, well - no offense, but they've done so many /facepalms over the years that well - they're not right in the head any more...otherwise, they wouldn't put up with the continued deluge of TRIBBLE that Cryptic exhales continuously out their TRIBBLE at the game...
If a Premade is driving off a potential PvPer - well, I say...they should be thankful as Hell that's all it took.
Otherwise, well...they too could end up with a permanent palmprint on their forehead somewhere down the line.
Gotta disagree here, it's not the premades, it's that over 90% of the playerbase wouldn't PvP if you paid them to-regardless of the conditions.
Why? most of them are PVE players-they want item drops, they want to be able to memorize a pattern and run missions like time-trials. If you have a cloaking ship, REALLY visit Ker'rat once in a while-as in just cruise it and count handles. The three to five Feds who want to fight someone are outnumbered by the ones farming Borg, usually something like two or three to one depending on instance.
They're silent in zone chat-why? because they don't WANT to talk to anyone.
back to the subject though-when I was newer I thought separating the ques was a good idea-but here's the problem: PvP is most active on the weekends, yes?
if you roll through queing up, you rapidly discover you're pugging with the same people, over and over again, against the same people, over and over again.
That's when the Ques actually 'kick'. Best time is on a Saturday.
Now, assume random draw, that means it's the same people queing. Over and over again, with very little to no variation.
There just aren't enough players to make the idea of separated ques work.
Separate premades and pugs and there would be 10 times more players queing up for PVP.
Actually it does for the simple fact that players can quickly tell each other which abilities are ready or on cool down, which makes setting up a kill or healing that much easier with minimal waste of abilities.
talking into a microphone doesn't make you "good" or "skilled", it just means you can speak the same language.
Since the black ball of death was nerfed, I've started to like PvP again (I sort of threatened to quit before). But I'm a TRIBBLE, and I will keep pugging. I truly doubt I'll ever give up on PvP .
Meh, each new thing - each new investment...it's just no longer fun for me. I've been waffling on it - I used to have fun find new and interesting ways to die; but now - well, it's over so fast there's nothing to enjoy.
Cryptic has created a game where there's no investment needed for PvE - where I can just fly around going wheeeee with whatever during some downtime...and...they've created a game where there's an extreme investment needed for PvP - where I have to grind PvE until I'm blue in the face. PvP in STO's not just killing my desire to PvP, but to bother with STO at all.
And there's just so much - ahem - boasting coming from some of the players when they're unloading their wallets on somebody. It's kind of funny.
So say you're in Ker'rat, and you see a ship named I.K.S. Tar'get...that flies up to a Fedball and sits there with no shields. Anybody with half a clue is going to realize the guy's doing Die25. But there are folks that are still dropping Dark Poo Matter, popping AMS, dropping GPG, and even normal things like VM, SNB, etc, etc, etc. Like...hello? At first, it was kind of funny...but then it kind of hits you, just how sad it all is. And then you realize that you're a part of that...and...it's like, oh Hell no.
These fleet premades aren't going to stop doing it because its so much easier for them to roll up a queue and ruin everyone else's game.
I'd say they take great pride in it as well, its that whole entitlement thing.
I call BS on 'it takes a week to setup a match'.
It doesn't take a week to get some guys in your fleet together who are online, then fire a PM to another fleet and see if they are up for some no pressure friendly matches.
The proof that they enjoy roflstomping through the queues is evident on the fact its always the pug leaving and the premade stays, then complains they all rage quit.
No, they left because it was a pointless match.
it does in fact take far longer to set up a real premade vrs premade match. have you ever tried?
i remember a time when the only way to get a premade vrs premade match was during a tourny because one premade would warp out on the other due to their skill difference. ie- not all premades are equal
Getting on teamspeak and calling out the next target for everyone to focus fire at doesn't make you "good".
banishing the "premades" to their own que is just as good as outlawing them.
as to point B- this sounds more like you just hate players that are better then you.
a lot of matchs that tsi used to run as a group of friends were just whoever was on, and even then we'd rarely call targets because we all knew what the other was going to do.
playing in ONLY pug matchs will not get you this.
maybe they should make pvp matches only be que able if you're pre teamed with at least one other person?
problem solved. make the pug's do private matches if they want to just go solo.
i like this idea.
make the pvp que's require you be teamed with at least one other person to enter the que.
So it takes a week to go, hey fleeties, who's up for a couple of friendly private matches with X fleet?
Y fleet members then go yeah cool.
Team leader of y fleet PMs someone on X fleet, x fleet responds, a friendly no pressure private match to burn time?
Yeah, why not, give me 10, I'll get some guys together.
10 minutes later, match is setup.
If it takes you a week to setup a 'quick friendly' then it must take you a fortnight to coordinate a team to do some roflstomping.
So it takes a week to go, hey fleeties, who's up for a couple of friendly private matches with X fleet?
Y fleet members then go yeah cool.
Team leader of y fleet PMs someone on X fleet, x fleet responds, a friendly no pressure private match to burn time?
Yeah, why not, give me 10, I'll get some guys together.
10 minutes later, match is setup.
If it takes you a week to setup a 'quick friendly' then it must take you a fortnight to coordinate a team to do some roflstomping.
Stop acting so special and entitled!
Sometimes it's that easy. Most of the time it's not.
After reaching about Page 5 of the thread I feel what would be needed first in order to even begin to have a "Balanced" PVP:
Leaderboards.. and Rankings.
The Leaderboards hopefully would be based on each characters stats as they perform.. Heals done, Damage delt, Kills acrewed, etc.. etc.. Allowing players to be able to judge weither a character is a good healer, etc.. etc..
Rankings would be based on wins and losses gained from PVP Capture and Holds as well as Arena based PVP. Which would in turn allow for more balanced teams to be created because it could eaisly be set up for lower ranked players only playing players with in a range of their ranking +/- X amount of points. (Granted this is not a perfect system character by character since it would be based on the teams you get matched with. But it would help to slowly move higher ranked teams up the ladder and allow for newer players to get a better feel. It wouldnt' stop "Griefing" how ever as all a "Premade" team would have to do is make 5 fresh level 50's, grind out their gear, and then start to PVP.. )
This could be further split between Space and Ground PVP to allow for people who are good at Space to have a higher space based ranking vs Players who mostly do ground based PVP having a better Ground based ranking.
The individual Rankings could also open the door for Fleet based Rankings in PVP, so then PVP Fleets could be tracked. This how ever would require perhaps a specific seperate que or some way to track it from the open Queues.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Oh you mean like your entire thread here that demands your style of play take precedence over anyone else?
Where does it say that?
Eh, it doesn't, not even between the lines.
Reverse it though and funnily enough it all reads as 'pug teams aren't welcome, pug teams aren't good enough to grace our PvP. Love, premades'.
To be honest, if the in game voice chat was working, we wouldn't see so many outcries against premades. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they wouldn't be any if the ingame voice chat was working. But it's probably not a bad thing to give a chance for pugs to coordinate like premades. /snip
The in game voice chat is/was horrible. ESPECIALLY for a F2Per. Nothing worse then, from my experience on Champions Online, being in the middle of a statement when suddenly..:rolleyes:
"This Voice chat is brought to you by... Lowe's... etc.. etc..."
That in addition to the poor voice quality provided ment it became pointless to use. Also don't forget the lag that sometimes went along with using the in game voice channel.
If it were more like Dungeons and Dragons online, where they provide a halfway decient Team Voice chat with NO advertisements, and Little/no Lag, it wouldn't be so bad. People wouldn't mind using it.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
To be honest, if the in game voice chat was working, .
To be honest if a player doesn't want to get on teamspeak and create a crack team of PVP'ers, and just wants to have some fun relaxing PVP, they're sure not going to join an in-game voice chat program either.
How about some fun relaxing PVP, and stop taking PVP so seriously like your self-worth completely depends on it.
Separating Pugs and Premades would separate the "I take this too seriously" group from the "I just wanna shot stuff and have fun" group. It would work perfectly.
After reaching about Page 5 of the thread I feel what would be needed first in order to even begin to have a "Balanced" PVP:
Leaderboards.. and Rankings..
And then you have what you had in (takes way way too seriously) StarCraft 2, where players purposely lose games so they can get on the lower ladders.
And you still haven't fixed the premades vs. pugs problem. StarCraft 2 still has a problem of multi-player PVP games where players on the same ladder scheme still get ROFLstomped by premades because guess what, da da da da, your buddies aren't always online when you're online so you still spend a majority of your time pugging.
banishing the "premades" to their own que is just as good as outlawing them.
.
Well you know what they say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the very few. You're in a very small minority, and you are stepping on the fun of the very large majority.
Lol, I think being coordinated makes you good in my book. Extremely good, so good you roflstomp most people who aren't as coordinated as you. Why would you be scared of premades otherwise?
I've played the most tactically complex multiplayer game on the planet for 6 years, WWIIONLINE, and the only thing guildies are capable of "coordinating" is cat herding a zerg into one spot.
The in game voice chat is/was horrible. ESPECIALLY for a F2Per. Nothing worse then, from my experience on Champions Online, being in the middle of a statement when suddenly..:rolleyes:
"This Voice chat is brought to you by... Lowe's... etc.. etc..."
That in addition to the poor voice quality provided ment it became pointless to use. Also don't forget the lag that sometimes went along with using the in game voice channel.
If it were more like Dungeons and Dragons online, where they provide a halfway decient Team Voice chat with NO advertisements, and Little/no Lag, it wouldn't be so bad. People wouldn't mind using it.
yeah DDO's voice chat is amazing compared to STO's. It's even on a separate server so you can talk ( and type) while in a loading screen.
Having a working voice chat in this game would be a big boost to all team play (pvp and pve). Also different languages shouldn't be a problem because, well, its not a problem in other MMOs. Just think of the things that could happen in STO if the voice chat was better...things like organizing and dare I say it...teaching. The voice quality of Vent and TS will always be better, but a working voice chat is better than no chat.
We all told Dstahl how terrible the in-game voice chat implementation was last time around, and he plugged his ears and implemented it anyway. Lo and behold absolutely nobody uses it. What makes you think things can be any different now?
And then you have what you had in (takes way way too seriously) StarCraft 2, where players purposely lose games so they can get on the lower ladders.
And you still haven't fixed the premades vs. pugs problem. StarCraft 2 still has a problem of multi-player PVP games where players on the same ladder scheme still get ROFLstomped by premades because guess what, da da da da, your buddies aren't always online when you're online so you still spend a majority of your time pugging.
Can't say I've played Star Craft 2.
And sure it isn't a perfect suggestion. There are bound to be loop holes. I kinda thought about that very possibility while making the suggestion. There could be a set limit to how much you could lose in a single day/week/month, etc.. So that way you couldn't spiral your way down too quickly.
For example, say your first 5 matches per day are Ranked.. And then the rest are not. Your still stuck in that ranking win or lose more then likely for at least a week depending on how many points a loss would be considered vs a Win. If Starting points were say ... 600 out of say 2k It could take some time to get to Top tier ranking if your earning only say 10-15 points per win. Same for going down rankings.
They queue could eaisly be made, to avoid "I have no one to fight" sceneros by allowing lower ranked teams to still have a chance to run into higher ranked teams out side their "Tier" but it would be a much lower chance.
Rankings could also be seperated into Tiers of say.. 200 points each. 0-200 = Tier 0, 201-400 = Tier 1, etc.. or If you want to make things closer.. 500 points per tier instead 0-500 = Tier 0, 501-1000 = Tier 1, etc..
Also obviously, it wouldn't just be a single individual that determined the ranking of a team of players, but the average of the team together.
So lets say you had the following team using the above example for Ranking:
Player 1: 2,000
Player 2, 300
Player 3: 635
Player 4: 425
Player 5: 1125
The Average ranking for a team like this would be: 897
Still enough of a challange for Player 5, Player 1 would find it probably too easy, almost like a pug stomp, while Players 2 and 4 might feel its tough.. Player 3 probably wouldn't notice much. Of course that is in a perfect world (Ha ha) mean while in reality we will have the griefers, the guys who are probably on their.. 5th or more character, who have characters at the max ranking and are at this point just trying out a new concept.
A Ranking system could also unlock better gear sellers, maybe unique ship skins or even ships themselves. Something similar to how the Fleet System works now, but your ranking would be the requirements to purchase something, instead of the fleet level. They could even keep Ship modules and use them for such a ranking system for some of the ships they could decide to offer. Maybe even some new "Fleet" or "PVP Ranked" version of the Bug Ship or other ships. One Requiring you own the Bug, have 4 Fleet Modules, and PVP Ranking 2000 (Using the ranking example above) (And Yeah.. yeah.. I know.. we don't NEED a fleet version of THAT ship.. :P) Hey look.. monetizing PVP..
Ranking obviously will never truelly promote how skillful a player is. How ever a ranking system could, in my very humble opinion, improve the PVP Queue environment... I am not saying it would be the end all be all fix that PVP finally needs, but could go a looong way towards making things better. Because lets face it, most PVPers we have ever run across have some form of Ego that needs stroking. Other wise we wouldn't be PVPers.
Now of course they (STO development team) still needs to get around to improving how often they (The Queues) pop.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
^Lol I totally support such a system but make ranking account wide :P. That way it would only take the most dedicated PvPer to create new account (new grind) and try roflstomp newbies XD.
While it might put off some folks from creating alts to roflstomp newbies, it would also put folks off from creating alts in general...their own newbies would get roflstomped.
Comments
Yes it does. If you outlawed premades, it would make no difference; because good players would continue to work together, and achieve much the same results regardless.
Heck, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if half the teams that seem to have so soured you on STO's PvP were not in fact premades at all; just skilled players who were willing to work together.
If teams want organized fleet warfare, let them use one of the channels to arrange private matches.
Option three, would be to have in-RP combat that was actually meaningful to end-game content, aka minefield control, starbase control, stuff like that.
A) Nobody is going to outlaw your premade teams.
I can't disagree with this enough.
It has nothing to do with the Premades. If anything, the Premades are doing some folks a favor.
The folks that still PvP, well - no offense, but they've done so many /facepalms over the years that well - they're not right in the head any more...otherwise, they wouldn't put up with the continued deluge of TRIBBLE that Cryptic exhales continuously out their TRIBBLE at the game...
If a Premade is driving off a potential PvPer - well, I say...they should be thankful as Hell that's all it took.
Otherwise, well...they too could end up with a permanent palmprint on their forehead somewhere down the line.
Run from PvP while you can! Run, my friends! Run!
Separate premades and pugs and there would be 10 times more players queing up for PVP.
talking into a microphone doesn't make you "good" or "skilled", it just means you can speak the same language.
Meh, each new thing - each new investment...it's just no longer fun for me. I've been waffling on it - I used to have fun find new and interesting ways to die; but now - well, it's over so fast there's nothing to enjoy.
Cryptic has created a game where there's no investment needed for PvE - where I can just fly around going wheeeee with whatever during some downtime...and...they've created a game where there's an extreme investment needed for PvP - where I have to grind PvE until I'm blue in the face. PvP in STO's not just killing my desire to PvP, but to bother with STO at all.
And there's just so much - ahem - boasting coming from some of the players when they're unloading their wallets on somebody. It's kind of funny.
So say you're in Ker'rat, and you see a ship named I.K.S. Tar'get...that flies up to a Fedball and sits there with no shields. Anybody with half a clue is going to realize the guy's doing Die25. But there are folks that are still dropping Dark Poo Matter, popping AMS, dropping GPG, and even normal things like VM, SNB, etc, etc, etc. Like...hello? At first, it was kind of funny...but then it kind of hits you, just how sad it all is. And then you realize that you're a part of that...and...it's like, oh Hell no.
That's where I'm at now...oh Hell no.
it does in fact take far longer to set up a real premade vrs premade match. have you ever tried?
i remember a time when the only way to get a premade vrs premade match was during a tourny because one premade would warp out on the other due to their skill difference. ie- not all premades are equal
i dont think we are.
banishing the "premades" to their own que is just as good as outlawing them.
as to point B- this sounds more like you just hate players that are better then you.
a lot of matchs that tsi used to run as a group of friends were just whoever was on, and even then we'd rarely call targets because we all knew what the other was going to do.
playing in ONLY pug matchs will not get you this.
maybe they should make pvp matches only be que able if you're pre teamed with at least one other person?
problem solved. make the pug's do private matches if they want to just go solo.
i like this idea.
make the pvp que's require you be teamed with at least one other person to enter the que.
Do you even Science Bro?
Y fleet members then go yeah cool.
Team leader of y fleet PMs someone on X fleet, x fleet responds, a friendly no pressure private match to burn time?
Yeah, why not, give me 10, I'll get some guys together.
10 minutes later, match is setup.
If it takes you a week to setup a 'quick friendly' then it must take you a fortnight to coordinate a team to do some roflstomping.
Stop acting so special and entitled!
Oh you mean like your entire thread here that demands your style of play take precedence over anyone else?
Sometimes it's that easy. Most of the time it's not.
@DevolvedOne
Leaderboards.. and Rankings.
The Leaderboards hopefully would be based on each characters stats as they perform.. Heals done, Damage delt, Kills acrewed, etc.. etc.. Allowing players to be able to judge weither a character is a good healer, etc.. etc..
Rankings would be based on wins and losses gained from PVP Capture and Holds as well as Arena based PVP. Which would in turn allow for more balanced teams to be created because it could eaisly be set up for lower ranked players only playing players with in a range of their ranking +/- X amount of points. (Granted this is not a perfect system character by character since it would be based on the teams you get matched with. But it would help to slowly move higher ranked teams up the ladder and allow for newer players to get a better feel. It wouldnt' stop "Griefing" how ever as all a "Premade" team would have to do is make 5 fresh level 50's, grind out their gear, and then start to PVP.. )
This could be further split between Space and Ground PVP to allow for people who are good at Space to have a higher space based ranking vs Players who mostly do ground based PVP having a better Ground based ranking.
The individual Rankings could also open the door for Fleet based Rankings in PVP, so then PVP Fleets could be tracked. This how ever would require perhaps a specific seperate que or some way to track it from the open Queues.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Where does it say that?
Eh, it doesn't, not even between the lines.
Reverse it though and funnily enough it all reads as 'pug teams aren't welcome, pug teams aren't good enough to grace our PvP. Love, premades'.
The in game voice chat is/was horrible. ESPECIALLY for a F2Per. Nothing worse then, from my experience on Champions Online, being in the middle of a statement when suddenly..:rolleyes:
"This Voice chat is brought to you by... Lowe's... etc.. etc..."
That in addition to the poor voice quality provided ment it became pointless to use. Also don't forget the lag that sometimes went along with using the in game voice channel.
If it were more like Dungeons and Dragons online, where they provide a halfway decient Team Voice chat with NO advertisements, and Little/no Lag, it wouldn't be so bad. People wouldn't mind using it.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
To be honest if a player doesn't want to get on teamspeak and create a crack team of PVP'ers, and just wants to have some fun relaxing PVP, they're sure not going to join an in-game voice chat program either.
How about some fun relaxing PVP, and stop taking PVP so seriously like your self-worth completely depends on it.
Separating Pugs and Premades would separate the "I take this too seriously" group from the "I just wanna shot stuff and have fun" group. It would work perfectly.
And then you have what you had in (takes way way too seriously) StarCraft 2, where players purposely lose games so they can get on the lower ladders.
And you still haven't fixed the premades vs. pugs problem. StarCraft 2 still has a problem of multi-player PVP games where players on the same ladder scheme still get ROFLstomped by premades because guess what, da da da da, your buddies aren't always online when you're online so you still spend a majority of your time pugging.
Well you know what they say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the very few. You're in a very small minority, and you are stepping on the fun of the very large majority.
I've played the most tactically complex multiplayer game on the planet for 6 years, WWIIONLINE, and the only thing guildies are capable of "coordinating" is cat herding a zerg into one spot.
yeah DDO's voice chat is amazing compared to STO's. It's even on a separate server so you can talk ( and type) while in a loading screen.
Having a working voice chat in this game would be a big boost to all team play (pvp and pve). Also different languages shouldn't be a problem because, well, its not a problem in other MMOs. Just think of the things that could happen in STO if the voice chat was better...things like organizing and dare I say it...teaching. The voice quality of Vent and TS will always be better, but a working voice chat is better than no chat.
Can't say I've played Star Craft 2.
And sure it isn't a perfect suggestion. There are bound to be loop holes. I kinda thought about that very possibility while making the suggestion. There could be a set limit to how much you could lose in a single day/week/month, etc.. So that way you couldn't spiral your way down too quickly.
For example, say your first 5 matches per day are Ranked.. And then the rest are not. Your still stuck in that ranking win or lose more then likely for at least a week depending on how many points a loss would be considered vs a Win. If Starting points were say ... 600 out of say 2k It could take some time to get to Top tier ranking if your earning only say 10-15 points per win. Same for going down rankings.
They queue could eaisly be made, to avoid "I have no one to fight" sceneros by allowing lower ranked teams to still have a chance to run into higher ranked teams out side their "Tier" but it would be a much lower chance.
Rankings could also be seperated into Tiers of say.. 200 points each. 0-200 = Tier 0, 201-400 = Tier 1, etc.. or If you want to make things closer.. 500 points per tier instead 0-500 = Tier 0, 501-1000 = Tier 1, etc..
Also obviously, it wouldn't just be a single individual that determined the ranking of a team of players, but the average of the team together.
So lets say you had the following team using the above example for Ranking:
Player 1: 2,000
Player 2, 300
Player 3: 635
Player 4: 425
Player 5: 1125
The Average ranking for a team like this would be: 897
Still enough of a challange for Player 5, Player 1 would find it probably too easy, almost like a pug stomp, while Players 2 and 4 might feel its tough.. Player 3 probably wouldn't notice much. Of course that is in a perfect world (Ha ha) mean while in reality we will have the griefers, the guys who are probably on their.. 5th or more character, who have characters at the max ranking and are at this point just trying out a new concept.
A Ranking system could also unlock better gear sellers, maybe unique ship skins or even ships themselves. Something similar to how the Fleet System works now, but your ranking would be the requirements to purchase something, instead of the fleet level. They could even keep Ship modules and use them for such a ranking system for some of the ships they could decide to offer. Maybe even some new "Fleet" or "PVP Ranked" version of the Bug Ship or other ships. One Requiring you own the Bug, have 4 Fleet Modules, and PVP Ranking 2000 (Using the ranking example above) (And Yeah.. yeah.. I know.. we don't NEED a fleet version of THAT ship.. :P) Hey look.. monetizing PVP..
Ranking obviously will never truelly promote how skillful a player is. How ever a ranking system could, in my very humble opinion, improve the PVP Queue environment... I am not saying it would be the end all be all fix that PVP finally needs, but could go a looong way towards making things better. Because lets face it, most PVPers we have ever run across have some form of Ego that needs stroking. Other wise we wouldn't be PVPers.
Now of course they (STO development team) still needs to get around to improving how often they (The Queues) pop.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
While it might put off some folks from creating alts to roflstomp newbies, it would also put folks off from creating alts in general...their own newbies would get roflstomped.