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Premades vs PUGs
mikamocha
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
If it has already been discussed, then consider this post a "ping".
One of the major problems with the PvP Queues is that it often pits premade teams against pugs.
This discourages new players from joining the PvP community, and diminishes the quality of the PvP Queues.
I think a quick fix would be to create a PvP Premade Queue (A queue where you can join with your teammates, or PUG), and a PvP Pug Queue (a queue where you can't join as a team). Especially since it appears the queues need to be reworked anyways (since it takes forever to start a game, and the numbers seem to be off and everything) I would imagine this shouldn't be too hard to do.
Of course it can be argued that pugs can join and create their own premade teams, and I agree, they can. However, sometimes it is fun to just join a pickup game, get the luck of the draw and see how you do against your opponents.
Additionally, it changes the strategy of the PvP Queues somewhat. Whereas in the Team Queues, you would need to think up a build that supports and balances your teammate's builds. But in the PUG Queues, you would need to create more of a solid build that is more self reliant, since you don't know who you will be with, and who you will up against.
The advantage of having both is that premades can challenge themselves by playing other premades, and PUGs don't have to be scared away by facing a premade that is much better than them. Having been on premades, its not fun to squash 5 random PUGs, and its much more challenging and meaningful and inspiring to get defeated by another premade that has their act together.
(Obviously, single players should be able to join the Team Queues because if someone has a team of 4...maybe they just need that 1 random person...although, just as PUGs could and currently often have to make a team to join the queues, so too can one argue that premades should find a 5th.)
It's just my two cents. What do you guys think? Feasible? Other solutions?
One of the major problems with the PvP Queues is that it often pits premade teams against pugs.
This discourages new players from joining the PvP community, and diminishes the quality of the PvP Queues.
I think a quick fix would be to create a PvP Premade Queue (A queue where you can join with your teammates, or PUG), and a PvP Pug Queue (a queue where you can't join as a team). Especially since it appears the queues need to be reworked anyways (since it takes forever to start a game, and the numbers seem to be off and everything) I would imagine this shouldn't be too hard to do.
Of course it can be argued that pugs can join and create their own premade teams, and I agree, they can. However, sometimes it is fun to just join a pickup game, get the luck of the draw and see how you do against your opponents.
Additionally, it changes the strategy of the PvP Queues somewhat. Whereas in the Team Queues, you would need to think up a build that supports and balances your teammate's builds. But in the PUG Queues, you would need to create more of a solid build that is more self reliant, since you don't know who you will be with, and who you will up against.
The advantage of having both is that premades can challenge themselves by playing other premades, and PUGs don't have to be scared away by facing a premade that is much better than them. Having been on premades, its not fun to squash 5 random PUGs, and its much more challenging and meaningful and inspiring to get defeated by another premade that has their act together.
(Obviously, single players should be able to join the Team Queues because if someone has a team of 4...maybe they just need that 1 random person...although, just as PUGs could and currently often have to make a team to join the queues, so too can one argue that premades should find a 5th.)
It's just my two cents. What do you guys think? Feasible? Other solutions?
Post edited by mikamocha on
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currently, the game needs to be balanced first.
Do you even Science Bro?
There are currently 12 queues. Splitting Premade/PUG would result in 24 queues.
If one were to do away with FvF, FvK, & KvK...there would be 4 queues. Splitting Premade/PUG would result in 8 queues.
If Group A = Teamed and
If Group B = Not Teamed
Do not put them in same game
This type of complicated code has stumped programmers for over a decade.
except then what happens if theres not enough for either que to pop?
in theory you could have a team of 2 a team of 4 a team of 5 another team of 4 another team of 2 and the que not pop. thats 2+4+4+2+5=21 playes unable to play.
Do you even Science Bro?
There would be 10+ times more players in the pug que.
Basically some players want literally every available instance of public PvP to be a complete and utterly un-coordinated event.
Where teams have little to no coordination of powers or tactics.
Apparently it's not enough that 2 out 3 (Kerrat, C&H) public PvP scenarios already either cater to this or are predominately this out of evolution.
If they don't want to play against teams, they should not queue for an environment that caters specifically to teams.
There is always Kerrat which is rarely organized and C&H where pre-formed teams rarely join.
Enjoy the 10-15 minute ques, cause nobody is going to PVP until PUG's are separated from PREMADE's.
Enjoy the hyperbole, because no one will take a post seriously until the hyperbole is removed from it.
This might come as a shock to you, but its in cryptic's best interests to reinforce reasons to play in organized teams.
That's the driving force behind the entire fleet system, why it caters to larger groups instead of smaller ones, and why it caters to groups in general more than it does to random lone individuals.
Random lone individuals are not as invested in the game in the long term as people in organized social groups.
PWE & Crytpic recognize this, and that is why the fleet system was implemented in the first place.
A massive time sink, resource sink, and group achievement to focus on - to keep those players who are likely to invest in the game invested over the long term.
10-15 minutes is hyperbole? Gee I thought it was being conservative. Sometimes the que never advances during the night.
Enjoy the long que time, and when you get in half the players are just grinding dilithium and would rather take their shields off and sit there while your uber-team beats them to death.
Of course there are those.
There are always lazy people who want everything to cater to them, who want all aspects of a game to completely serve itself up to their playstyle only and deny everyone else other avenues.
It's pretty sad those players want to steer what is a teaming PvP environment into an uncoordinated headless chicken fest because they are too lazy to join a channel and form or join their own teams.
I guess C&H, Kerrat, OPvP and Tyler Durden channel are not enough?
"blah blah blah"
Anyways the solution is to separate premades and pugs, unless of course you prefer to have 1 interesting battle with your premade every 6 hours. That what you want? One interesting battle every 6 hours? WOW.....clone.
Average pug doesn't have TS, average pug has to rely on team chat, as we know some who disable it, there's an instant disadvantage.
A group of random people is never ever going to be as organised as a premade. Fact!
Then there's the roll of the dice thing with toons, you could have 5 Tac goes in, no heal boats. Or 4 engineer, 1 sci, low DPS. The random goes on.
Disadvantage again.
To set up what is a real premade vs. premade match can sometimes take an entire week.
When you see 4 or 5 guys in the queue with the same fleet tag that doesn't automatically make them a "premade" in the sense that it is some fully optimized war machine.
Usually it's whoever was available and felt like PvPing together.
They are doing these evil, terrible things like:
Revolutionary, I know.
So in that span where we try to form proper premade matches that can and do take anywhere from the better part of an entire day to an entire week, where two sides have to get 5 guys, balance their teams, iron out team comp, set up a time that accommodates everyone's time zone, agree on some set of rules that keeps everyone happy...yeah...
Sometimes the handful of guys who happened to be online want to just pewpew, try an experimental new build and not worry so much about being super optimized.
So they hop in the queue hoping that other people are doing the same.
Like last night where my fleet had a really fun match when we met 1AQ in the queues without any planning.
It's fun, it's exciting. There are no rules decided, maybe you aren't as prepared as you usually would be.
Maybe you don't have enough healing or damage, it adds a fun random element to things.
You can hop into the queues and probably have 5 to 10 matches in the time it would take to set up a premade, if there is even another premade online at the time who wants to set up a match.
This is why some "premades" hop into the queues.
Open Public queues are there for everyone to join and utilize.
Let's imagine Arena PvP to be like getting a game of Pick Up Ice Hockey or Pick Up Football with full contact rules.
These sports are good examples because they actually require equipment, i.e. both teams really need to be prepared.
Unlike say, pick up games of basketball where all you need is a court, players and a ball.
So let's stick with this Imaginary situation of Full Contact Non-scheduled Ice Hockey.
The Public Ice Rink is owned by the City, there are no rules regarding teams forming teams.
Team A did some prep beforehand, all the players have gear. They know each other, they play a lot together.
Maybe they don't have a full team, but they can pick up a few players at the rink.
Team B formed literally on the spot, right before the game.
Some of them don't even have proper equipment, or know how to play.
They didn't prepare at all.
Due to luck of the draw, Team A faced Team B.
Team A was disappointed, they were hoping to face some real competition.
Team B was angry, they felt it was unfair to have to face a team that was organized.
Some players from Team B, instead of spending their energy on preparing for the next week - spend all their time lobbying the city council to ban all pre-formed teams because they don't like losing to them.
Was Team A solely in the wrong? Or does Team B actually bear some responsibility for showing up completely unprepared to play a Team game?
And one of them looks like a multi-boxer.
In any physical sport, the two would generally never have to face each other; but despite the fact that some video games are now being considered official sports (and their pro players being officially considered athletes), video game developers don't seem to take this into account when they make PvP.
Of course, STO's population simply may not have enough people interested in PvP to make separating the players into different leagues workable (it's not like the queues are lightning fast as it is).
sorry to break it to you,
premade and pug is no longer "black and white" these days.
there are-
pugmades,
premades,
pugs.
Do you even Science Bro?
MMORPG cheese
I hear it's the #1 thing in Eve Online that makes PVP cheese; 50 people locking onto one player and insta killing them.
"OK everyone target BOB49382"
"Yay bob dead, OK everyone target BEEBOO948392"
"Yay BEEBOO dead, OK everyone target......."
cheese
The terminology is the one used by the forums, where people split hairs of premade vs. pugmade vs. a real proper tournament team.
When people say "premades" like in this thread, they are not pointing their sights at PUGmades, because they have no idea if those guys were pre-formed or not.
No they are very specifically targeting players who are in the same fleet who are...playing together.
There is a clear difference between what they think is "a premade' (i.e. a preformed team) and a properly optimzed "Premade".
When I, and many others, say "premade" we mean a team composition that was decided well in advance - my own fleet uses simple things like excel documents to form the base and then work out details on TS - we only do this for actual premade vs premade matches.
Don't ring the school bell just yet, sparky.
Nope. Getting on teamspeak don't make you pro, it just gives you a huge advantage over premades.
Separate Premades vs. Pugs = problem solved.
Yes it's definitely cheesy for people to work together, play together, coordinate their activities in a Multiplayer online game. :rolleyes:
You might try sticking to single player games, you get the to be the hero and win all of the time and you don't have to worry about socializing or people who socialize.
PvP Bootcamp hosts an open teamspeak available to anyone who wants to use it and coordinate their activities.
Many fleets, like mine, also have Open Teamspeak or Ventrillo servers and guests are welcome to join, chat, ask questions and team with us or use rooms for teaming.
"OK everyone target BOB."
"Yay BOB dead. OK everyone target Fred."
"OK fred dead. OK everyone target Goober."
"OK Goober dead. OK everyone target OOgyboogy."
"OK OOgyboogy dead..........."
Wow thrilling. Does this thrill you?
It's about as complex as tossing pennies into a can cause I can't think of a more simple type of game. Even Connect 4 is more complicated. Seriously I can't think of a more simple type of game. Tic-Tac-Toe has more strategy.
Breaking News: I don't want to get on teamspeak and "coordinate my activities".