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Birds of Prey need a buff
timezarg
Member Posts: 1,268
I think most people realize that, in the aftermath of the LoR release. . .what real advantage the Bird of Prey class had is gone. Romulans have battlecloaks on everything, and use them even better than the KDF BoP class. Universal boffstations are thrown onto every Tier 5 ship that gets released nowadays, so they are no longer as 'exclusive' as they used to be. There are now several ship variants that can keep up with the BoP in regards to turning and maneuvering.
So, I propose that the entire Bird of Prey class (or, at least the C-Store and Fleet ships) receive some sort of boost. I do not recommend raising the hull strength or shield modifier, as that would render raptors moot (I wouldn't mind this, personally, but I can't see Cryptic agreeing to it).
I suggest that the impulse modifier be increased. Currently, all BoPs use the same .20 impulse modifier that escorts use. In the past, this was sufficient. Now, it is not. There are multiple ship types out there that can go faster. . .the Steamrunner, the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, all of the 1000 day veteran ships, and most recently the Risan Corvette with its ridiculous .25 impulse modifier.
Perhaps a boost to a .22 impulse modifier for the Bird of Prey class is warranted. Maybe even .23
A second suggestion is to boost the properties of the KDF battlecloak. . .specifically, adding a large hull resist buff to make it easier to cloak under fire, or give you more time to escape if you're detected. Or boosting the innate de-cloak damage buff.
Does anyone else have any suggestions? Keep in mind, I am looking at boosts that can be applied to more than one BoP type.
So, I propose that the entire Bird of Prey class (or, at least the C-Store and Fleet ships) receive some sort of boost. I do not recommend raising the hull strength or shield modifier, as that would render raptors moot (I wouldn't mind this, personally, but I can't see Cryptic agreeing to it).
I suggest that the impulse modifier be increased. Currently, all BoPs use the same .20 impulse modifier that escorts use. In the past, this was sufficient. Now, it is not. There are multiple ship types out there that can go faster. . .the Steamrunner, the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, all of the 1000 day veteran ships, and most recently the Risan Corvette with its ridiculous .25 impulse modifier.
Perhaps a boost to a .22 impulse modifier for the Bird of Prey class is warranted. Maybe even .23
A second suggestion is to boost the properties of the KDF battlecloak. . .specifically, adding a large hull resist buff to make it easier to cloak under fire, or give you more time to escape if you're detected. Or boosting the innate de-cloak damage buff.
Does anyone else have any suggestions? Keep in mind, I am looking at boosts that can be applied to more than one BoP type.
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Post edited by timezarg on
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~Karona@Sobekeus
Jem'Hadar Dreadnought Carrier Exterminatus
Can't really agree with any of this, they still seem to do perfectly fine in PvP, they're a ship that rely on decloaking in groups hitting and running, a bit like a pack of wolves... And from what I've seen they can still do this effectively against the new Romulan ships every seems to think are overpowered, which I think is another fallacy.
"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." - Carl Sagan
What you're seeing is skill and experience. I think a lot of the folks flying Romulans and trying hit-and-run tactics aren't really good at it. . .some are, and it definitely shows. Not only that, but I suspect the Romulan ships are still being put through their paces in terms of builds.
Most people who bother running KDF BoPs in PvP generally have a good idea how to at least effectively de-cloak alphastrike a target, otherwise they'd stop using them as it becomes increasingly obvious how disadvantaged BoPs are in straight-up combat and defending. Especially if you're flying a Hegh'ta or a Fleet Norgh, which have only 3 tactical consoles.
The improvements I suggested would simply enhance their hitting-and-running capabilities, as that is essentially all they're good at right now. . .whether it be damage-based 'hitting' or science-based 'hitting', they're still having to 'run' a lot. An impulse modifier increase would help with the running, and would make it to where it's not so laughably easy for a Risan Corvette to keep up with a BoP pulling out all the stops trying to get away to cloak safely and then re-position for another run. It would put the BoP on equal speed footing with the JHAS and the Veteran ships, as well.
The change to the battlecloak would make it a little easier to use that battlecloak without risking someone suddenly getting into range (i.e. a Corvette or a Romulan ship) and shredding you in 2 seconds because you hit cloak.
Lastly, BoPs can't always travel in packs. If I could, I would join up with a regular group of BoP pilots to wreak havoc in Ker'rat and the PvP queues. . .but it is very, very rare to see more than 2-3 BoP pilots together in one place, even when a KDF PvP fleet is throwing its weight around as a team. Half the time, I'm the only one flying a BoP and having to try solo-running a target and hoping my alphastrike crits, and crits high enough to kill the target or severely damage it.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Seriously Rommie ships are sooooo stupid strong compared to KFD BOP's it isn't even a question of if. Just how much.
Where to start? With the ability to flit in and out of cloak and all the crazy bonus that gives ALL while maintaining buff coverage? Is that a good start? Okay I'm not going to bother with a list. Huge waste of time.
Just go with what this guy said. Consider it covered.
kdf ships should at least have the shield mods the fed counterparts have, and the feds should get something for not being able to cloak at all, im thinking SA for all non cloakers, slightly inferior to what sci ships get.
As a bopper and t'varo (energy build with torps for harrasment so its basically a glorified bop) pilot, I have to say currently survival in a t'varo and the corvette are far, far easier than a kdf bop - I adore my fleet norgh, but the truth is that beyond the universal seating, a bop has litle else to come close towards an energy weapon t'varo - the romulan ships pay far too little for their bonuses in my opinion; the simple fact being that the 40 less energy is pretty much an annoyance than a flaw that requires skill to negate (the fact you can mount two uni consoles and get half that loss back instantly doesn't help either, let alone shields, engines and such that boost it further) and the overall turn rate loss is easily remedied as well to boot
Of course we are all urinating in the wind as the rommies are the new cash cow thus have to be 'uber' to sell well; but I feel the romulan ships versus the kdf ships are seriously imbalanced to a point that its akin to flying a rear admiral level ship versus a bug - skill can overcome it, but you enter battle with a serious disadvantage
I personally would prefer the romulans power setting to be hard capped at 115 instead of 125 - let them keep the cloaks, the hull, the shield - but make that power penalty count for something - if they are supposed to have less power, make it so its a penalty, not a minor annoyance
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Either KDF ships need a boost, or Rom ships need an across-the-board nerf.
Only Fed/kdf non romulan need a buff. Refering to the major imbalance with critrates.
The KDF BOPs sure as hell need a buff.
The KDF BOP pays for it's Universal BOFF with fewer skills allowed, yet other newer ships are getting Universal BOFF stations and giving up nothing for the build flexibility.
You have Escorts now that approach KDF BOP maneuverability and speed while retaining the robustness of an Escort.
The Romulans all have Battlecloaks and with their BUFFs very short cooldowns alongside powerful BUFFs that inherently come by playing Romulan / Reman characters (their BOFFs). Yet the T'Varo gives up nothing in survivability but still exceeds the KDF BOP in the hit & run capability, and having the Enhanced Battlecloaks.
For stat contrasts:
B'Rel Retrofit
Fleet B'Rel - [sarcastic tone] Thank you Cryptic, because if there was one thing that BOPs need, is an Engineering Console, most especially the B'Rel which needs it the most.
T'Varo Retrofit
Fleet T'Varo
I agree with this. I suggest that the B'rel retrofit, should have a larger crew. The small amount it has now, is terrible, or perhaps give it's fire-power more....well...Power. That ship is the least used of all the one's I bought from the Zen store.
And it's sad, cause I would have preferred to use it more. But it's not worth using really. And I feel , was a waste of money.
On top of all that in end game we really don't have any kind of missions to do where you actually have to raid something especially since they are raiders as well as classified as such. On top of all that the B'rel in Star Trek 6 was the model for the enhanced battle cloak but the Romulan T'varo is the only one with a decent setup to use that way...
Along with the bortasqu' being the only real ship to hit the c-store in almost 2 years now the KDF sure does need some love which they did get some momentum with the kamarag and the few missions we got with LoR but it seems Cryptic, PWE, or both seem to have forgotten the true problem with the KDF is that theres enough content to level on but the selection of ships and missions to do with said ships is very very very low. The momentum however has run out with new KDF players that have nothing to do that they can't do on their fed toons.
Edit: The only thing we actually got in the words of *words* is a most likely a day dream of something that will most likely never come to be from the interview recently where it was stated this is not a promise LOL.
Cloak becomes Battle Cloak on every KDF ship equipped with Cloak. Also the Defiant and Galaxy X.
The BoP gets a Klingon Battle Cloak, it keeps the shields up while cloaking for a few extra seconds. Klingon BOFFs get an ability to enhance the Cloak, but not the same as Romulans. Maybe longer shield uptime, for ships that don't Klingon Battle Cloak those bonus seconds count from 0.
All KDF cloaked vessels get a slight boost to hull and shields. Fleet 10% adjustments from the new stats too.
I'd also like to see the Fleet B'Rel have it's 4th Eng Console moved to Tac (preferably) or Sci. I'd like to see a Klingon Battle Cloaking Raptor released, a Klingon Battle Cloaking Sci ship (Proper Sci with Sensor Analysis and built in Subsytem Targeting, and let's be serious here Aux powered Disruptors.) I seriously don't think any current B'Rel owner will complain about losing the 4th Eng slot and gaining it anywhere else. Heck why not make the 10th slot 100% universal (which of course translates to Tac anyway.)
A new Klingon Escort 3 pack. Not a 5 Weapon variant either to be honest. But definately a 5 Tac console variant. I want the Klingon Sci ship to have the extra forward weapon to be honest I think it suits us more.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
S imple
E asy
E ffective
... not being done.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
This might be overdoing it. The Risan corvette is bloody ridiculous, but it is a limited-availability ship, which reduces its numbers. BoPs can be obtained by anyone with sufficient dilithium and fleet credits. That's why I suggested the numbers that are in my original post.
This is it. It is all about CASH. New uber toys ppl are willing to pay for. This is Cryptic's World. They wont never ever change something for the BoPs (I prefer too), until we will pay for it. Cryptic is great in releasing fast new goodies to buy, but the rest is... meh.
I really hate to admit, but this is my conclusion from being Cryptics customer for several years now.
Game balance - what??? Youre already in the game, have sunk your energy or rl money in the economy, so what. Change to the new ubertoys, pay again for it or gtfo.
This i think is what Cryptic thinks about older customers.
Deeply disappointed and disillusioned am I.
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I mean Bops are made for strike and raid, of course the weapon payload is goning to be focused fore,
doesnt change how fragile the bops are, adds dps but extra weapon drain overall?
Bops still have all universal Boff stations, but seriously once you have your Setup thats not doing you much good. Its not that other ships don't have decent Boff layouts wich offer setups not possible on other ships. So while this is nice to have and adds to the flexibility of capabilites its not really an advantage in combat.
Their combat advantage was their Battle Cloak, and hands down, this has already been seriously challenged by the Defiant (Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit), wich was the first ship rendering Bops obsolote, especially considering that it runs five tactical consoles. There is no way a Bop can compete with that, universal officer station or not.
With the addition of the Romulan ships, wich do not only offer Battlecloak on dreadnoughts and cruisers (technically putting EVERY other faction on a disadvantage, not just Klingon), but also bring a new set of singularity-mechanicts to the table (allowing for cloaking with enabled shields and temporary hull hit points as an example) the bar has been raised considerable in favour of Romulan warships.
It has to be stated that there are not much 5-tactical console Romunlan Batllecloakers, only the Scimitar (and only the Scimitar) wich brings also 5 forward weapons wich is... sabotaged by its sluggish 7 turn rate...
and
...the Fleet Ha'feh Assault Warbird, wich isn't an escort either but with a Turnrate of 16 the only things it suffers from is its interia (40) and allowing "only" four forward weapons, leaving the romulans with a very capable 5-tac battlecloaker cruiser. Its not an escort but its certainly not a lemon either.
Compared to a 5-cannon Kumari (inertia 70) it still stands it ground with Battlecloak and singularity abilities and needs not to hide.
This is the general capability level for a decent Tier 5 Ship and both do fairly well in that regard.
And Raptors don't even have a Battlecloak, nor do they sport 5 tactical consoles or 5 forward weapons, no singularity abilities, nothing.
Yes, something needs to happen to Bops and Raptors. Certianly the Raptors are off worst.
What to do? Well... Tier 5 Raptors (Qin&Somraw and Fleet versions + Mirror) should get 5 forward cannons across the board. Romulan warships don't come with 5 forward weapos and Feds lack either the cloak or guns, even if they come with more consoles. That would make them compeditive and it suits Klingon war doctrine to put more firepower on it.
Tier 5 Bops need to be upped to five tactical consoles each (thats the B'rel Retrofit, Fleet Norgh and the respective Fleet versions). Thats in most cases a change of two tactical console slots, just so you understand where we are now.
There is an exception and that is the Hoh'SuS and its Fleet version, wich is more offensive oriented and therefore would only gain a single tactical console. Therefore it should be upped to five forward guns instead (and remain at 4 tac consoles, doing both would be too much).
This would make the ships compeditive to the Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit (Defiant) again, wich comes at 5 tac consoles and four forward guns plus battlecloak.
Thats my recommendation
Please buff your skills, obviously u lack tactics and the know-how to fight frigate type ships, if u don't know how to counter the now Obsolete BoP's then u no doubt suck in PvP.
few months ago i also started a thread say that BoP's and Raptors needs a buff, i'm glad it's brought up again so Cryptic should read our concerns... like if they even listen to us KDF players
First off, the KDF Battle Cruisers and Carriers stats are very good so they don't need a change.
but the Basic ''Klingon Cloak'' needs a change (in my opinion) from 20 sec but can't cloak in combat to 40 sec with an ability to cloak in combat for the Battle Cruisers and Raptors, i will propose this for the Defiant and Galaxy-X as well on their ''Federation Cloak'' to be fair.
Though it may work like the Klingon and Romulan ''Battle Cloak'' it will have a 20 sec slower CD time so it's not really a ''Battle'' cloak cause anything could happen in that longer 20 sec time frame in PvP and even with Embassy Rommie Boff Superior Operative traits would not give it much of an advantage... only slight.
As for the ''Klingon Battle Cloak'' i don't think it needs a change, though i notice that the ''Romulan Battle Cloak'' have an +10% dmg bonus out of cloak than it, but i suggest that the KDF needs new Generation of Boff with new space traits to compensate for this.
BoP's needs a buff on the Impulse Mod. and 10+ Inertia, and few new future release BoP's with 5 fore weapon slots like a Fleet' Hegh'ta and some more BoP's with 4 tac console slots. i will also suggest adding a 2nd Lt. Com boff station to relpace the other Lt. boff Station with a setup of 1x Com Universal Station, 2x Lt. Com Universal Station, 1x Lt. Universal Station to all tier 5 BoP's and give the Fleet Norgh a 10th console slot on the Sci or Tac if this change is made...
Like i said b4 many times the Raptors are totally obsolete for awhile and need a major change with some new types having 5 fore weapon slots or having 5 tactical console slots, and increase Shield Mod., if not change the basic ''Klingon Cloak'' the way i posted above.
i would mention about the weak Turn Rate on the Raptors but right now it's not an issue due to the new Dilithium Mine ENG consoles.
Romulan Battle Cloak increases Turn rate, Defense and Flight Speed while cloaked. Klingon Cloak/Battle Cloak simply puts you into Cloak.
Everybody gets bonus damage coming out of cloak, Feds, KDF, Rommies everyone.
My thoughts on Cloak are on page 2.
@discloned, I don't think every BoP should have 5 Tac consoles or 5 Weapons forward, but I wouldn't object to at least 1 having those features. I don't think every Raptor needs 5 Fore weapons but I wouldn't object to 1 having it.
Let's be honest KDF would really benefit from at least 1 new ship in BoP, Raptor, Battlecruiser and Sci vessel categories and I realise this is asking a huge huge amount of Cryptic. Klingons need and deserve a Sci ship with Battle Cloak.
Every single ship in this game could do with a rebalance to make them more balanced. I'm not saying remove all the downsides I'm just saying they should be fairer.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
LOLz, are u sure???... My Fleet B'rel/Hoh'SuS have bonuses with +1.5/+3 Increase Flight Speed, +5/+10 Increase Turn Rate and +50% Defense and +25%/+15% dmg after decloak from their Battle Cloaks while my Fleet K't'inga only have +50% defense bonus with its basic cloak with +15% dmg out of cloak.
Most of the Romulan Advantage of thier cloak ability bonuses comes mostly from their OP Boff's space traits period... don't say it's not OP otherwise cause the KDF/Feds have no real effective indigenous boff's space traits that can compete with them (FACT) and the Fleet Embassay boff's still can't match the RR boff's space traits as well (Embassay 1 space traits boff's vs RR 2 space trait boff's).
I guess u are one of those KDF players that don't use an indigenous klingon ship design with cloaks... i wonder what ship do u use... a Jem'hadar attack ship, dreadnought, a cardassian galor cruiser, tholian ships or maybe a ferengi ship i wonder...
I haven't been in my BoP for ages.
I leveled in BoPs and Raptors (with an occaisonal Cruiser, back when you could buy ships with EC). I was in a Qin Raptor for awhile and now I'm in a Vo'quv, the next ship I intend to get KDF side will be the Fleet Tor'kaht. I'll use it to replace and improve my Vor'cha R.
I own a Garumba, Hegh'ta, Qin, Vor'cha R, Negh'var, Vo'quv, Mirror Vo'quv (prefer the original) the free Bortasq, and the Risalian Corvette (Unpacked but not flown). Heck I even own the To'duj Fighter which has Battle Cloak and doesn't seem to get any buffs for it. I never used the Garumba in PVP or Missions just ESTF. Until recently the Raptor was my usual ship. I admit the only time I flew the Heg'tha was in organised PVP where I played the role of Bait.
I was unaware that Battle Cloak is now the equivalent of Romulan Battle Cloak.
I'd like to thank you for taking my lack of knowledge on how Battle Cloak works for BoPs as proof I fly a Lockbox/Lobi ship and attempted to use that to humiliate me.
I'll be double checking the Hegh'ta and To'duj right now but.
Edit: Yep Seems Battle Cloak is Romulan Battle Cloak, weird that they decided to make a big deal out of the Romulan version when all Battle Cloaks are the same. I don't remember getting these bonuses but it's been nearly 3 years since I flew the BoP.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.