They are the worst class in the game. Anything they can do, a Sci can do better, save for those selfish abilities they have.
If you win with an Engie on the team now, you're doing it at the expense of efficiency. A Sci breaking out Damp Field or Sci Fleet helps his team out way more than anything an Engie can do. Not to mention the ability to set up kills for his teammates with Subnuke and/or Sensor Scan.
Let's also not forget the increased utility in Sensor Scan+snooper console in snooping for cloaking ships.
For doffs I use 3 Purple Maintenance Engineer EPtA Doffs (boosts emitter array and hull repair by 25 each) and 2 Purple Development Lab Doffs (puts Sci Team to global cooldown after use).
This is why I think engineer is the best class for carriers, not sci. You can draw the enemies fire when using a carrier with all kind of annoying pets like siphon drones, yellowstones, or interceptors. Or with some pets can actually do enough damage to get kills like with advanced or elite bop pets. By combining drain and shield strip abilities with those bop or equiping siphons for even more drain I can be a threat and a zombie at same time, forcing the team to SNB and focus me. Also running 2 tractors with the doff and 250ish flow caps gets attention really quick, even if it doesn't drain much. I figure anytime my eng gets enemy to waste SNB on me instead of a tac, thats as useful as having a SNB, if not more.
I don't know if carrier pets really get to be that big of a deal that grav wells and faw can't handle. They are annoying but not worth pulling of the other teams dps ships. But maybe the new elite pets from T5 starbase are a bigger deal. I can't remember going againt a carrier with larger pets in premade games. It sounds interesting, will look at that too. One thing to remember, the healer can be healed and if you tesm is good then you will get heals and buffs ehile you are singled out.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
Agreed. But when you think about it, it's pretty amazing how even Tac and Sci are. There are 3 distinct careers, and even though one is a bit behind, I think they have done a pretty good job overall. Even a game like StarCraft: BroodWar, which is arguably the best competitive PvP game ever made, had a racial imbalance as Protoss was clearly the weaker race when looking at statistics. Still, Protoss could kick TRIBBLE and take names, and while engineers may not be able to kick TRIBBLE, they can surely take names!
They are the worst class in the game. Anything they can do, a Sci can do better, save for those selfish abilities they have.
As I said, somebody's gotta be the worst, a sad fact of life (if you're the worst). And those selfish abilities can save your TRIBBLE, which in turn saves other asses by the simple fact that you're still alive and now your heals are coming off cooldown and you're at 100% shields and hull when as a sci you could have been dead. A dead healer doesn't help anybody -_-
If you win with an Engie on the team now, you're doing it at the expense of efficiency. A Sci breaking out Damp Field or Sci Fleet helps his team out way more than anything an Engie can do. Not to mention the ability to set up kills for his teammates with Subnuke and/or Sensor Scan.
I dunno, people keep saying if you win with an engie you could be doing it better with a sci, or the other team was doing something wrong, or you got lucky. But I have beat some very skilled premade teams with a Hobo's premade and myself on engineer, including yourself a couple times^^. Something's working there. I'm not advocating a full team of engineers, but having one on the team can be beneficial, especially if you have a good tac whose alpha you can buff all day with EPS Power Tranfer.
Let's also not forget the increased utility in Sensor Scan+snooper console in snooping for cloaking ships.
I was in a premade vs. premade match yesterday where I was the main healer on my team and was on my engie, whereas the other team had all science captains for their healers. They tried to focus me once and barely scratched me (I didn't have to use MW or RSP) and after that they never tried again. That means every other person on my team has a higher chance to stay alive because 1) I'm not wasting heals on myself and 2) I'm still actually there to heal. We were able to take out their dedicated healer easier than they could take out ours because he was a science captain (even though he was in the same ship as me, a Recluse), and once he was dead we would always get 1-3 more kills before he was able to rejoin the fight.
Just a little food for thought.
actually that means you being an eng made no positive difference. if RSP and MW weren't even needed, you may as well had been a tac captain. all your team healing skills are from station powers, and if you dont even have to use your eng captain powers, then being an eng was totally pointless there. if you were a sci the team would have had an extra nuke, scan and sci fleet, wile losing 0 team healing ability, instead you were an eng and all your captain powers did nothing to help the team do anything. this is why people say eng sucks, and is pointless.
I have to ask Bob, and you are far from the only person to express this sentiment, but why would Engineers ever be about damage in the first place.
A little background, I've played quite a few of MMOs. Some PvP, some PvE, a good deal of "endgame" raid type stuff (Not WoW, never played it).
When I came to STO, within the first 15 mins of reading up on classes it was pretty "clear" (at the time) to me that Engineers were self-contained tanks or in other words that they were designed to allow a player to be a mitigation specialist.
Fast forward to now, and it still baffles me that people could assume that Engineers were ever designed to be anything except for the premier mitigation specialist.
Does that really make sense in PvP?
It doesn't actually matter because this game was not designed with PvP in mind.
(Obviously it matters as us to players, but from a Developer perspective they're probably confused why players would think Engineers should be doing damage like Tacs or be "support" like Sci).
It's a case of looking at the Eng in Space and the Eng on Ground...just the Captain Abilities, not the issue that exists with the BOFF abilities (okay, maybe later in the post).
And yes, I know you asked bob - but I run 4 Eng/3 Sci/2 Tac - and two of my Eng are still my most geared/played toons as I grind up the Reman Sci... meaning I've done more than my fair share of babbling about what's wrong with Eng. /cough
So, let's look at the Eng, eh?
Reroute Power to Shields (G) vs. Rotate Shield Frequency (S)
Cover Shield (G) vs. EPS Power Transfer (S)
Support Drone Fabrication (G) vs. Nadion Inversion (S)
Orbital Strike (G) vs. Miracle Worker (S)
Engineering Proficiency (G) vs. Engineering Team (S)
That's before looking at the kits, eh?
There are 5 Offensive, 4 Support/Control, 3 Heals, 2 Buffs...
So you go from this potential Combat Engineer on the ground to being...a Selfish Tank in space.
What about the other two Careers?
Target Optics (G) vs. Attack Pattern Alpha (S)
Fire on My Mark (G) vs. Fire on My Mark (S)
Tactical Initiative (G) vs. Tactical Initiative (S)
Security Escort (G) vs. Go Down Fighting (S)
Strike Team (G) vs. Tactical Fleet (S)
Tac on Ground and Tac in Space? Pretty consistent.
Tricorder Scan (G) vs. Sensor Scan (S)
Neural Neutralizer (G) vs. Subnucleonic Beam (S)
Dampening Field (G) vs. Scattering Field (S)
Nanoprobe Infestation (G) vs. Photonic Fleet (S)
Scientific Aptitude (G) vs. Science Fleet (S)
Not the obvious consistency of the Tac, but definitely a general consistency.
Not exclusively, but a Tac on the Ground is a Tac in Space. A Sci on the Ground has pretty much become a Sci in Space. The Eng on the Ground...is not...the Eng in Space.
Many folks would like to play an Eng in Space like they do on Ground. That doesn't mean that they'll be doing Tac DPS...but it does mean that they won't have gone from the Combat Engineer to the Selfish Tank.
Simple as that for some...
edit: Course, the two new Eng Ground traits are both survivability traits. Space, GUF boosts MW and EPS gives some additional power.
They are the worst class in the game. Anything they can do, a Sci can do better, save for those selfish abilities they have.
If you win with an Engie on the team now, you're doing it at the expense of efficiency. A Sci breaking out Damp Field or Sci Fleet helps his team out way more than anything an Engie can do. Not to mention the ability to set up kills for his teammates with Subnuke and/or Sensor Scan.
Let's also not forget the increased utility in Sensor Scan+snooper console in snooping for cloaking ships.
actually that means you being an eng made no positive difference....
Yes, we've gone over this. It was a bad example. My apologies. But my point still stands. You are a less desirable target because it's essentially a waste of time. So either a) you will survive longer when you're attacked or b) you will not be attacked and thus be free to keep the rest of your team alive. I don't see how that is a bad thing for what is arguably the most important ship to keep alive. Admittedly, I may be biased here as I mainly play healer roles, but when a dedicated healer dies, it leaves the team very vulnerable and it is more likely than not that another player will die before the healer gets back. When a tac dies, there is no real increase in threat to your team; it just means you won't be able to kill someone else for a short time. So basically, if you kill the healer you can get 2-5 kills if everything is properly aligned and if you kill a tac you get 1 kill. That's why these "selfish" abilities are actually good for the team overall.
People seem to be getting upset that I'm defending engineers as not completely useless. It's not like I'm saying they're better than tac or sci or even equal. They're not. What I'm saying is that there is a use for them. If you don't believe me, I'm always up for a challenge match as long as I can get a team together, so hit me up in STO, and that goes for anyone else as well, and you can show me how useless they are in a 5v5.
It's kind of funny looking at some of the older info over on STOwiki...
Tactical
Combat damage, stealth tactics and squad tactics. The Tactical officer can deliver damage in the widest variety of methods, while supporting his away team by drawing off enemy threat or bolstering their combat effectiveness with tactics and squad commands.
A Tactical officer's job is to keep the ship and crew safe from harm. A Tactical officer's skills are specialized for combat, both in space and on the ground. They get the job, whether using phasers, fists, or photon torpedoes, allowing Starfleet to explore and learn in safety.
Tactical officers increase the damage done by a ship, providing the ability to fire salvos of torpedoes and overload energy weapons for a massive attack. On the ground Tactical officers make the most out of any weapon, and are able to mix it up in melee combat better than anyone.
The Soldier is the most damage intensive class. They are the most direct attack class.
Security acts as a tank in typical combat roles. Although Cryptic has said that conventional battle tactics will not be part of STO, security can take the most damage. However they must sacrifice some attack.
Special Operations has the unique ability to stealth. They can sneak behind enemy lines and attack from behind.
Science
Weakening or incapacitating the enemy over time, creating energy fields that damage or hinder and healing their away team from such affects. The Science officer has the greatest potential to quickly react to chaotic combat situation through direct enemy holds, weakening an enemy groups combat strength or resistance, or responding to enemy attack by quickly healing damage. The science officers combat effectiveness is their versatility.
Science officers are essential to Starfleet's missions of exploration and diplomacy. They research, heal and innovate, using their knowledge and creativity to assist captain and crew. They can utilize technology to control and evade enemies, ensnare an enemy ship with a tractor beam, find cloaked ships, and even use holoprojectors to confuse enemies.
Researcher - Focuses on group debuffs, and buffs. Uses emitters to do this. A researcher is especially helpful in large fleet actions and other pvp opportunities. Their ability to buff a large group also allows them to buff your Bridge Officers.
Scientist - Focuses on single person buffs, and debuffs.
Doctor - Heals other players.
Engineering
Survivability, support generators, and controlling the paths of enemy advance with fieldworks. The Engineering officer can withstand the most damage by improving the performance of their personal shields, while supporting their away team with power generators or by bottlenecking the enemies advance with defensive mine fields. The Engineer's own combat effectiveness is improved by modifications to their firearms or support fire from fabricated turrets and drones.
Engineers have advanced technical skills that are available in both space and ground combat. They are adept as using Starfleet technology to its best advantage. They can help in reducing the amount of damage done to your ship, repair systems quickly, and even do things not in the Starfleet Operations Manual.
On the ground, Engineers can disable enemy technology, build force field generators, and perform various sorts of technological feats.
Technicians - Focus on buffs and debuffs. Their buffs focus on the entire group, unlike a Scientist.
Fabrication - Uses turrets. Most damage focused career for engineers.
Combat - Manipulates the battlefield for the advantage of the engineer. Combat engineers use demolition and explosives to hold the enemy.
I have to ask Bob, and you are far from the only person to express this sentiment, but why would Engineers ever be about damage in the first place.
They aren't necessarily about damage as a primary role, but one of the aims of this game is to make every captain class viable in its choice of gameplay - not so much to pigeonhole people into one style.
No one expects an engineer to instantly vaporize someone, but people should be able to do some semblance of pressure damage if they choose to play dps as their preferred captain type. Lately there's a massive emphasis on shield healing/resist so pressure damage isn't as useful as it's been in the past.
I don't know if carrier pets really get to be that big of a deal that grav wells and faw can't handle. They are annoying but not worth pulling of the other teams dps ships. But maybe the new elite pets from T5 starbase are a bigger deal. I can't remember going againt a carrier with larger pets in premade games. It sounds interesting, will look at that too. One thing to remember, the healer can be healed and if you tesm is good then you will get heals and buffs ehile you are singled out.
the elite ones are tough, and yellowstones and elite intercepters are so annoying they will get lots of attention when you spam them with 3 purple doffs and max aux. My Fleet hobo was toying around with all or mostly all carrier team awhile back, got put on hold while we wait for elite pets in a few days and the main carrier pilot putting it together is away now I think but hope to get around to it soon.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
if a class cant contribute meaningful damage, as well as doing ether spike or healing or debriefing best, its got no reason to exist
I support that other than the fact that eng are still awesome on the ground (at least in some areas) I have seen really nice eng in ground PvP, though I am not sure if they would have done any worse with other classes. Though it would be much better to have it improved as opposed to nuked. Although I have many times thought about how it could have its abilities merged with the other careers, I reckon it would be much better that way.
if a class cant contribute meaningful damage, as well as doing ether spike or healing or debriefing best, its got no reason to exist
its not like cryptic has to reinvent the wheel so they can look at other mmos .They have tanks/engineers and they are useless like you said till you get to the point called content...STO has no pvp content for engineers...heck it doesnt have pvp lol
I dunno, people keep saying if you win with an engie you could be doing it better with a sci, or the other team was doing something wrong, or you got lucky. But I have beat some very skilled premade teams with a Hobo's premade and myself on engineer, including yourself a couple times^^. Something's working there. I'm not advocating a full team of engineers, but having one on the team can be beneficial, especially if you have a good tac whose alpha you can buff all day with EPS Power Tranfer.
Skurf, I fly an engie and Sci healer. They are my primaries. I prefer the eng from a personal view, and when we pug I take my eng healer. Now I have a science captain in nearly the same build and if we are doing something organized my fleet team wants all science and tac.
The only reason for this is, I have the same tanks for both captains and two things are happening that the team wants science over engineer.
1. We are attacking and dont want to wait on another Sub Nuke, and the sensor scan buffs an attack (also in the interests of confusing the enemy we launch a preempt on another ship to see if they will heal it and waste em before we switch to our primary target, and "wasting" an extra subnuke and sensor scan can really sell that kind of deception)
2. The healer is being attacked, but if that is happening then the healer can use their own heals AND the team helps heal while the tac guys go bananas without having to worry about them being focused on. We have battle drills, one of which is for when the healer has all pvp 'aggro' and that means instant attack on the weakest targets for kills while the team pumps necessary heals to the science healer under attack making the engineers greatest benefit moot.
I love engineers, and I appreciate your posts. Don't take anything I am writing as an attack on you for defending engineers, they are a good class. I am just hoping for something where the engineer is more useful for the team. DPS is out, control and power drain are out. The tank is its role, the problem is tanks are nonessential since the sci/cruiser can pseudo tank effectively for the needs in pvp.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
Skurf, I fly an engie and Sci healer. They are my primaries. I prefer the eng from a personal view, and when we pug I take my eng healer. Now I have a science captain in nearly the same build and if we are doing something organized my fleet team wants all science and tac.
The only reason for this is, I have the same tanks for both captains and two things are happening that the team wants science over engineer.
1. We are attacking and dont want to wait on another Sub Nuke, and the sensor scan buffs an attack (also in the interests of confusing the enemy we launch a preempt on another ship to see if they will heal it and waste em before we switch to our primary target, and "wasting" an extra subnuke and sensor scan can really sell that kind of deception)
2. The healer is being attacked, but if that is happening then the healer can use their own heals AND the team helps heal while the tac guys go bananas without having to worry about them being focused on. We have battle drills, one of which is for when the healer has all pvp 'aggro' and that means instant attack on the weakest targets for kills while the team pumps necessary heals to the science healer under attack making the engineers greatest benefit moot.
I love engineers, and I appreciate your posts. Don't take anything I am writing as an attack on you for defending engineers, they are a good class. I am just hoping for something where the engineer is more useful for the team. DPS is out, control and power drain are out. The tank is its role, the problem is tanks are nonessential since the sci/cruiser can pseudo tank effectively for the needs in pvp.
you forgot the part were rotate shield frequency only works for the engineer, but the sci energy damage debuff is a bubble. about the only thing engies have over sci for a team is their team buff, which I still think is better then the sci one.
If you could put nadion inversion on a target other then your self that might be something, but currently you can only put emergency power to everything on another target, I know that's not its real name. but a tac with nadion inversion would be nasty. however the right doffs, Marion, and boff powers or the borg weapon set and you can get almost the equivalent, just not as long.
if a class cant contribute meaningful damage, as well as doing ether spike or healing or debriefing best, its got no reason to exist
I am guessing u mean debuffing,
Engineers only have a very few amount of ship to really be effective and have a nitch in pvp. Carriers are one of engineers nitch
For a engineer to be effective, you must be the target, you must be the anchor of the team. So much that the other team know effectively they must target you first.
Debuffing is the main way to get noticed followed by healing. Spike is best suited for the other class.
I found shutting down systems and draining to catch the eye of any premade. when you take there best dps and turn them in to a wet noodle or makes there healer shield flicker like a broken street lamp it gets the other TS chatter going real fast. Also just having a name where premade know that your the anchor ones you collapse a team may flicker.
This is what a engineer must do, get notice be notice and hold them off , while still debuffing like any good sci ship can and healing like you should any other teamate.
The real question; Is it worth perma Eptw now over EptS with a Engineer? Dps is higher but you now, you loose that extra tanking edge. Disunions Disunions
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I always assumed engineers were PvE toons, not PvP; for space at least. And I think they are pigeonholed into one useful role, uber zombie cruiser/recluse tank with maxed out threat.
When I think of Engineers, I think of the two builds listed below. I don't think of a snoozer or the PvE tank (I mean, c'mon - you can tank in a BoP in PvE).
They're not "team" builds though.
Simply putting a Sci in each rather than an Eng would make them more of a "team" build - just because the Sci would bring SNB, Sensor Scan, Scattering Field, Science Fleet, and even Photonic Fleet.
Boost the Sci's damage for the "necessary" spike during the gaps created by switching out the Arrays for DHCs/Turrets.
Taking that a step further, after switching for the DHCs/Turrets - drop a Tac. Again, a more "team" friendly build because of how the Tac can boost their damage for those gaps.
Wouldn't simply switching out the Arrays for DHCs/Turrets make it more "team" friendly even with the Eng in them? Nope, because they wouldn't have the damage.
So I fly around PUGland going...wheeeee!
But still, they're what I think of when I think of Engineers...a more balanced mix of damage and survivability. Balanced has no place in STO though.
Things in italics are "future" endeavors - even if just an upgrade in Rarity...that may or may not take place. Chel Grett Warship w/ Fed Alien Eng
My pvp toon/Main is an engineer. While some days I wish he had some way to increase damage like all the other classes, or indeed some offense oriented skill at all, I just grit my teeth and suffer through it.
The LoR changes have definitely improved the engineer's lot in life, but his skills are still very lacking compared to the other classes, and really do not contribute to the team at all. I'd kill to have some sort of eng specifc subnuc like power, maybe one that knocks out an enemy subsystem reliably (so like, if viral matrix were made an eng captain skill). Change the theme of the power to reflect engineering knowledge, but it'd give engineers a reliable offense oriented skill that would let them actually contribute to teams like science and tactical captains can.
When I think of Engineers, I think of the two builds listed below. I don't think of a snoozer or the PvE tank (I mean, c'mon - you can tank in a BoP in PvE).
They're not "team" builds though.
Simply putting a Sci in each rather than an Eng would make them more of a "team" build - just because the Sci would bring SNB, Sensor Scan, Scattering Field, Science Fleet, and even Photonic Fleet.
Boost the Sci's damage for the "necessary" spike during the gaps created by switching out the Arrays for DHCs/Turrets.
Taking that a step further, after switching for the DHCs/Turrets - drop a Tac. Again, a more "team" friendly build because of how the Tac can boost their damage for those gaps.
Wouldn't simply switching out the Arrays for DHCs/Turrets make it more "team" friendly even with the Eng in them? Nope, because they wouldn't have the damage.
So I fly around PUGland going...wheeeee!
But still, they're what I think of when I think of Engineers...a more balanced mix of damage and survivability. Balanced has no place in STO though.
Things in italics are "future" endeavors - even if just an upgrade in Rarity...that may or may not take place. Chel Grett Warship w/ Fed Alien Eng
*(somewhere down the line, if everything other thing on every single toon was done - maybe Mk XII them)
if your looking at space id honestly replace those ground traits with Helmsman, yhea its a bit of EC, but if nothing else 10 secs off evasive is 10 secs off evasive. and engis can spike their damage with things like DHC's, nadion and eps, essepically with a full set of 8 weapons, its just not as good as tacs or scis can do.
I'd kill to have some sort of eng specifc subnuc like power, maybe one that knocks out an enemy subsystem reliably (so like, if viral matrix were made an eng captain skill).
I've been thinking for a while that we ought to move Boarding Party to Tac (maybe use a Marines skill for offense and defense), and move the subsystem targeting from Tac 1-3 to Eng 2-4.
if your looking at space id honestly replace those ground traits with Helmsman, yhea its a bit of EC, but if nothing else 10 secs off evasive is 10 secs off evasive. and engis can spike their damage with things like DHC's, nadion and eps, essepically with a full set of 8 weapons, its just not as good as tacs or scis can do.
Meh, forgot about the Helmsman thing. I've mentioned it elsewhere...wasn't sure whether the Alien could actually go 9 Space (if Helmsman could replace the Ground trait or if the player would be forced to replace a Space trait).
Oddly enough, though - I've wondered about taking Precise on the Fed over Helmsman. I find I spend most of my time blowing up Danubes, Breen Clusters, Tractor Mines, etc, etc, etc - still, he's looking at +55% Accuracy - so it's not often that he misses those things.
It's one of those pseudo roles that has somewhat of a place in PUGplay and can be helpful.
It would be nifty, if they actually implemented 10-man PvP rather than 2x 5-man PvP...there are so many of those pseudo roles that would make sense for a 10-man that simply have no room in 2x 5-man.
Meh, forgot about the Helmsman thing. I've mentioned it elsewhere...wasn't sure whether the Alien could actually go 9 Space (if Helmsman could replace the Ground trait or if the player would be forced to replace a Space trait).
Oddly enough, though - I've wondered about taking Precise on the Fed over Helmsman. I find I spend most of my time blowing up Danubes, Breen Clusters, Tractor Mines, etc, etc, etc - still, he's looking at +55% Accuracy - so it's not often that he misses those things.
It's one of those pseudo roles that has somewhat of a place in PUGplay and can be helpful.
It would be nifty, if they actually implemented 10-man PvP rather than 2x 5-man PvP...there are so many of those pseudo roles that would make sense for a 10-man that simply have no room in 2x 5-man.
Well with beams you can hit what 75% total, or you could just go for the precise, and slap in a auto turret console, X5 damage to figs, x10 to torps and fighters/shuttles, and it prioritizes those targets. and is a bit of a dps boost, just a long timer. its one of those things id put in for team play if my job was to sweep the field of small craft/mines/torps in short order. good for assaulting 2-3 carriers
oh and that's 75% not counting skill points, just raw bonus from weapons, traits, consoles.
My Engineer isn't built to be useful to anyone in PVP.
My Engineer is built for all of you to say: WTF??? And, How the hell is he able to do that? And then go to the forums and cry Nerf.
My Engineer isn't built to be useful to anyone in PVP.
My Engineer is built for all of you to say: WTF??? And, How the hell is he able to do that? And then go to the forums and cry Nerf.
I don't know what he's talking about, Cryptic...but damn it, he obviously needs to be nerfed!
Comments
They are the worst class in the game. Anything they can do, a Sci can do better, save for those selfish abilities they have.
If you win with an Engie on the team now, you're doing it at the expense of efficiency. A Sci breaking out Damp Field or Sci Fleet helps his team out way more than anything an Engie can do. Not to mention the ability to set up kills for his teammates with Subnuke and/or Sensor Scan.
Let's also not forget the increased utility in Sensor Scan+snooper console in snooping for cloaking ships.
I don't know if carrier pets really get to be that big of a deal that grav wells and faw can't handle. They are annoying but not worth pulling of the other teams dps ships. But maybe the new elite pets from T5 starbase are a bigger deal. I can't remember going againt a carrier with larger pets in premade games. It sounds interesting, will look at that too. One thing to remember, the healer can be healed and if you tesm is good then you will get heals and buffs ehile you are singled out.
As I said, somebody's gotta be the worst, a sad fact of life (if you're the worst). And those selfish abilities can save your TRIBBLE, which in turn saves other asses by the simple fact that you're still alive and now your heals are coming off cooldown and you're at 100% shields and hull when as a sci you could have been dead. A dead healer doesn't help anybody -_-
I dunno, people keep saying if you win with an engie you could be doing it better with a sci, or the other team was doing something wrong, or you got lucky. But I have beat some very skilled premade teams with a Hobo's premade and myself on engineer, including yourself a couple times^^. Something's working there. I'm not advocating a full team of engineers, but having one on the team can be beneficial, especially if you have a good tac whose alpha you can buff all day with EPS Power Tranfer.
Yeah...you got me there.
@DevolvedOne
actually that means you being an eng made no positive difference. if RSP and MW weren't even needed, you may as well had been a tac captain. all your team healing skills are from station powers, and if you dont even have to use your eng captain powers, then being an eng was totally pointless there. if you were a sci the team would have had an extra nuke, scan and sci fleet, wile losing 0 team healing ability, instead you were an eng and all your captain powers did nothing to help the team do anything. this is why people say eng sucks, and is pointless.
It's a case of looking at the Eng in Space and the Eng on Ground...just the Captain Abilities, not the issue that exists with the BOFF abilities (okay, maybe later in the post).
And yes, I know you asked bob - but I run 4 Eng/3 Sci/2 Tac - and two of my Eng are still my most geared/played toons as I grind up the Reman Sci... meaning I've done more than my fair share of babbling about what's wrong with Eng. /cough
So, let's look at the Eng, eh?
Reroute Power to Shields (G) vs. Rotate Shield Frequency (S)
Cover Shield (G) vs. EPS Power Transfer (S)
Support Drone Fabrication (G) vs. Nadion Inversion (S)
Orbital Strike (G) vs. Miracle Worker (S)
Engineering Proficiency (G) vs. Engineering Team (S)
That's before looking at the kits, eh?
There are 5 Offensive, 4 Support/Control, 3 Heals, 2 Buffs...
So you go from this potential Combat Engineer on the ground to being...a Selfish Tank in space.
What about the other two Careers?
Target Optics (G) vs. Attack Pattern Alpha (S)
Fire on My Mark (G) vs. Fire on My Mark (S)
Tactical Initiative (G) vs. Tactical Initiative (S)
Security Escort (G) vs. Go Down Fighting (S)
Strike Team (G) vs. Tactical Fleet (S)
Kits? 4 Offensive, 3 Support/Control, 1 Heal, 6 Buffs (Offensive/Control)...
Tac on Ground and Tac in Space? Pretty consistent.
Tricorder Scan (G) vs. Sensor Scan (S)
Neural Neutralizer (G) vs. Subnucleonic Beam (S)
Dampening Field (G) vs. Scattering Field (S)
Nanoprobe Infestation (G) vs. Photonic Fleet (S)
Scientific Aptitude (G) vs. Science Fleet (S)
Kits? 2 Offensive, 5 Support/Control, 4 Heals, 3 Buffs...
Not the obvious consistency of the Tac, but definitely a general consistency.
Not exclusively, but a Tac on the Ground is a Tac in Space. A Sci on the Ground has pretty much become a Sci in Space. The Eng on the Ground...is not...the Eng in Space.
Many folks would like to play an Eng in Space like they do on Ground. That doesn't mean that they'll be doing Tac DPS...but it does mean that they won't have gone from the Combat Engineer to the Selfish Tank.
Simple as that for some...
edit: Course, the two new Eng Ground traits are both survivability traits. Space, GUF boosts MW and EPS gives some additional power.
QFT.
/10char
Yes, we've gone over this. It was a bad example. My apologies. But my point still stands. You are a less desirable target because it's essentially a waste of time. So either a) you will survive longer when you're attacked or b) you will not be attacked and thus be free to keep the rest of your team alive. I don't see how that is a bad thing for what is arguably the most important ship to keep alive. Admittedly, I may be biased here as I mainly play healer roles, but when a dedicated healer dies, it leaves the team very vulnerable and it is more likely than not that another player will die before the healer gets back. When a tac dies, there is no real increase in threat to your team; it just means you won't be able to kill someone else for a short time. So basically, if you kill the healer you can get 2-5 kills if everything is properly aligned and if you kill a tac you get 1 kill. That's why these "selfish" abilities are actually good for the team overall.
People seem to be getting upset that I'm defending engineers as not completely useless. It's not like I'm saying they're better than tac or sci or even equal. They're not. What I'm saying is that there is a use for them. If you don't believe me, I'm always up for a challenge match as long as I can get a team together, so hit me up in STO, and that goes for anyone else as well, and you can show me how useless they are in a 5v5.
@DevolvedOne
Tactical
Combat damage, stealth tactics and squad tactics. The Tactical officer can deliver damage in the widest variety of methods, while supporting his away team by drawing off enemy threat or bolstering their combat effectiveness with tactics and squad commands.
A Tactical officer's job is to keep the ship and crew safe from harm. A Tactical officer's skills are specialized for combat, both in space and on the ground. They get the job, whether using phasers, fists, or photon torpedoes, allowing Starfleet to explore and learn in safety.
Tactical officers increase the damage done by a ship, providing the ability to fire salvos of torpedoes and overload energy weapons for a massive attack. On the ground Tactical officers make the most out of any weapon, and are able to mix it up in melee combat better than anyone.
The Soldier is the most damage intensive class. They are the most direct attack class.
Security acts as a tank in typical combat roles. Although Cryptic has said that conventional battle tactics will not be part of STO, security can take the most damage. However they must sacrifice some attack.
Special Operations has the unique ability to stealth. They can sneak behind enemy lines and attack from behind.
Science
Weakening or incapacitating the enemy over time, creating energy fields that damage or hinder and healing their away team from such affects. The Science officer has the greatest potential to quickly react to chaotic combat situation through direct enemy holds, weakening an enemy groups combat strength or resistance, or responding to enemy attack by quickly healing damage. The science officers combat effectiveness is their versatility.
Science officers are essential to Starfleet's missions of exploration and diplomacy. They research, heal and innovate, using their knowledge and creativity to assist captain and crew. They can utilize technology to control and evade enemies, ensnare an enemy ship with a tractor beam, find cloaked ships, and even use holoprojectors to confuse enemies.
Researcher - Focuses on group debuffs, and buffs. Uses emitters to do this. A researcher is especially helpful in large fleet actions and other pvp opportunities. Their ability to buff a large group also allows them to buff your Bridge Officers.
Scientist - Focuses on single person buffs, and debuffs.
Doctor - Heals other players.
Engineering
Survivability, support generators, and controlling the paths of enemy advance with fieldworks. The Engineering officer can withstand the most damage by improving the performance of their personal shields, while supporting their away team with power generators or by bottlenecking the enemies advance with defensive mine fields. The Engineer's own combat effectiveness is improved by modifications to their firearms or support fire from fabricated turrets and drones.
Engineers have advanced technical skills that are available in both space and ground combat. They are adept as using Starfleet technology to its best advantage. They can help in reducing the amount of damage done to your ship, repair systems quickly, and even do things not in the Starfleet Operations Manual.
On the ground, Engineers can disable enemy technology, build force field generators, and perform various sorts of technological feats.
Technicians - Focus on buffs and debuffs. Their buffs focus on the entire group, unlike a Scientist.
Fabrication - Uses turrets. Most damage focused career for engineers.
Combat - Manipulates the battlefield for the advantage of the engineer. Combat engineers use demolition and explosives to hold the enemy.
They aren't necessarily about damage as a primary role, but one of the aims of this game is to make every captain class viable in its choice of gameplay - not so much to pigeonhole people into one style.
No one expects an engineer to instantly vaporize someone, but people should be able to do some semblance of pressure damage if they choose to play dps as their preferred captain type. Lately there's a massive emphasis on shield healing/resist so pressure damage isn't as useful as it's been in the past.
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Twitter:
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the elite ones are tough, and yellowstones and elite intercepters are so annoying they will get lots of attention when you spam them with 3 purple doffs and max aux. My Fleet hobo was toying around with all or mostly all carrier team awhile back, got put on hold while we wait for elite pets in a few days and the main carrier pilot putting it together is away now I think but hope to get around to it soon.
I miss my 100% hull, 24.9% damage GDF.
I support that other than the fact that eng are still awesome on the ground (at least in some areas) I have seen really nice eng in ground PvP, though I am not sure if they would have done any worse with other classes. Though it would be much better to have it improved as opposed to nuked. Although I have many times thought about how it could have its abilities merged with the other careers, I reckon it would be much better that way.
its not like cryptic has to reinvent the wheel so they can look at other mmos .They have tanks/engineers and they are useless like you said till you get to the point called content...STO has no pvp content for engineers...heck it doesnt have pvp lol
Skurf, I fly an engie and Sci healer. They are my primaries. I prefer the eng from a personal view, and when we pug I take my eng healer. Now I have a science captain in nearly the same build and if we are doing something organized my fleet team wants all science and tac.
The only reason for this is, I have the same tanks for both captains and two things are happening that the team wants science over engineer.
1. We are attacking and dont want to wait on another Sub Nuke, and the sensor scan buffs an attack (also in the interests of confusing the enemy we launch a preempt on another ship to see if they will heal it and waste em before we switch to our primary target, and "wasting" an extra subnuke and sensor scan can really sell that kind of deception)
2. The healer is being attacked, but if that is happening then the healer can use their own heals AND the team helps heal while the tac guys go bananas without having to worry about them being focused on. We have battle drills, one of which is for when the healer has all pvp 'aggro' and that means instant attack on the weakest targets for kills while the team pumps necessary heals to the science healer under attack making the engineers greatest benefit moot.
I love engineers, and I appreciate your posts. Don't take anything I am writing as an attack on you for defending engineers, they are a good class. I am just hoping for something where the engineer is more useful for the team. DPS is out, control and power drain are out. The tank is its role, the problem is tanks are nonessential since the sci/cruiser can pseudo tank effectively for the needs in pvp.
this is my engie motto, I will say in ground stf's engies look like loads
of fun, and really are neat! they should play this up.
in space combat i think they are a little broken, Uber tanks are just to much,
specially for the newb pvpers
you forgot the part were rotate shield frequency only works for the engineer, but the sci energy damage debuff is a bubble. about the only thing engies have over sci for a team is their team buff, which I still think is better then the sci one.
If you could put nadion inversion on a target other then your self that might be something, but currently you can only put emergency power to everything on another target, I know that's not its real name. but a tac with nadion inversion would be nasty. however the right doffs, Marion, and boff powers or the borg weapon set and you can get almost the equivalent, just not as long.
I am guessing u mean debuffing,
Engineers only have a very few amount of ship to really be effective and have a nitch in pvp. Carriers are one of engineers nitch
For a engineer to be effective, you must be the target, you must be the anchor of the team. So much that the other team know effectively they must target you first.
Debuffing is the main way to get noticed followed by healing. Spike is best suited for the other class.
I found shutting down systems and draining to catch the eye of any premade. when you take there best dps and turn them in to a wet noodle or makes there healer shield flicker like a broken street lamp it gets the other TS chatter going real fast. Also just having a name where premade know that your the anchor ones you collapse a team may flicker.
This is what a engineer must do, get notice be notice and hold them off , while still debuffing like any good sci ship can and healing like you should any other teamate.
The real question; Is it worth perma Eptw now over EptS with a Engineer? Dps is higher but you now, you loose that extra tanking edge. Disunions Disunions
ParadiseKiller
House of Beautiful Orions
Zeadonouse
ToLate
When I think of Engineers, I think of the two builds listed below. I don't think of a snoozer or the PvE tank (I mean, c'mon - you can tank in a BoP in PvE).
They're not "team" builds though.
Simply putting a Sci in each rather than an Eng would make them more of a "team" build - just because the Sci would bring SNB, Sensor Scan, Scattering Field, Science Fleet, and even Photonic Fleet.
Boost the Sci's damage for the "necessary" spike during the gaps created by switching out the Arrays for DHCs/Turrets.
Taking that a step further, after switching for the DHCs/Turrets - drop a Tac. Again, a more "team" friendly build because of how the Tac can boost their damage for those gaps.
Wouldn't simply switching out the Arrays for DHCs/Turrets make it more "team" friendly even with the Eng in them? Nope, because they wouldn't have the damage.
So I fly around PUGland going...wheeeee!
But still, they're what I think of when I think of Engineers...a more balanced mix of damage and survivability. Balanced has no place in STO though.
Things in italics are "future" endeavors - even if just an upgrade in Rarity...that may or may not take place.
Chel Grett Warship w/ Fed Alien Eng
Traits - Accurate, Astrophysicist, EPS Manifold Efficiency, Efficient Captain, Elusive, Grace Under Fire, Techie, Warp Theorist, Resilient
Reputation
New Rom - Precision, Sensor Targeting Assault, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
Nukara - Enhanced Shield Penetration, Auxiliary Power Config - Offense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Assault
TT1, FAW2/BO2, APO1, APO3
THY1, TS2
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtW1
ST1, HE2, TSS3
DOFFs - SDO(BFI), 3x DCE(EPtX), WCE(Cleanse)
Deflector - MACO Mk XII
Impulse - Aegis
Core - Elite Fleet Reinforced Warp Core Mk XII [Rep][S->A][WCap][AMP][SSS]
Shields - MACO Mk XII
Weapons
Fore - Omega Torp, Experimental Array, 2x Romulan Plasma Array Mk XII [Acc]x2
Aft - Hyper-Plasma Torp, Cutting Beam, 2x Romulan Plasma Array Mk XII [Acc]x2
Consoles
Tac - 4x Plasma Infuser Mk XI*
Eng - Nukara, Borg, Enhanced Neut Mk XII [+Turn]
Sci - 0Point, Tachyo, Field Gen Mk XII
Devices - SFM, Aux Batt, Eng Batt
Jem'Hadar Heavy Escort Carrier w/ KDF Alien Eng
Traits - Accurate, Astrophysicist, EPS Manifold Efficiency, Efficient Captain, Elusive, Grace Under Fire, Techie, Warp Theorist, Shield Harmonic Resonance
Reputation
New Rom - Precision, Sensor Targeting Assault, Quantum Singularity Manipulation
Nukara - Enhanced Shield Penetration, Auxiliary Power Config - Offense, Refracting Tetryon Cascade
Omega - Omega Weapon Training, Omega Graviton Assault
TT1, FAW2/BO2, DPA2, APO3
EPtS1, AtB1, EWP1
EPtW1, AtB1
ST1, HE2
PH1
DOFFs - SDO(BFI), 3x Tech (AtB), MAS(EWP)
Deflector - Omega Mk XII
Impulse - Aegis
Core - Elite Fleet Reinforced Warp Core Mk XII [Rep][S->A][WCap][AMP][SSS]
Shields - Omega Mk XII
Weapons
Fore - Cutting Beam, Hyper Dual R-Tetryon Beam, 2x R-Tetryon Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2
Aft - Nukara Web Mine, 2x R-Tetryon Beam Array Mk XII [Acc]x2
Consoles
Tac - 4x Tetryon Pulse Generator Mk XI*
Eng - Borg, Leech, Tachyo, Enhanced Neut Mk XII [+HullRep]
Sci - 0Point, Nukara
Hangar - Elite Tholian Widow Fighters
Devices - SFM, Aux Batt, Eng Batt
*(somewhere down the line, if everything other thing on every single toon was done - maybe Mk XII them)
The LoR changes have definitely improved the engineer's lot in life, but his skills are still very lacking compared to the other classes, and really do not contribute to the team at all. I'd kill to have some sort of eng specifc subnuc like power, maybe one that knocks out an enemy subsystem reliably (so like, if viral matrix were made an eng captain skill). Change the theme of the power to reflect engineering knowledge, but it'd give engineers a reliable offense oriented skill that would let them actually contribute to teams like science and tactical captains can.
if your looking at space id honestly replace those ground traits with Helmsman, yhea its a bit of EC, but if nothing else 10 secs off evasive is 10 secs off evasive. and engis can spike their damage with things like DHC's, nadion and eps, essepically with a full set of 8 weapons, its just not as good as tacs or scis can do.
Meh, forgot about the Helmsman thing. I've mentioned it elsewhere...wasn't sure whether the Alien could actually go 9 Space (if Helmsman could replace the Ground trait or if the player would be forced to replace a Space trait).
Oddly enough, though - I've wondered about taking Precise on the Fed over Helmsman. I find I spend most of my time blowing up Danubes, Breen Clusters, Tractor Mines, etc, etc, etc - still, he's looking at +55% Accuracy - so it's not often that he misses those things.
It's one of those pseudo roles that has somewhat of a place in PUGplay and can be helpful.
It would be nifty, if they actually implemented 10-man PvP rather than 2x 5-man PvP...there are so many of those pseudo roles that would make sense for a 10-man that simply have no room in 2x 5-man.
Well with beams you can hit what 75% total, or you could just go for the precise, and slap in a auto turret console, X5 damage to figs, x10 to torps and fighters/shuttles, and it prioritizes those targets. and is a bit of a dps boost, just a long timer. its one of those things id put in for team play if my job was to sweep the field of small craft/mines/torps in short order. good for assaulting 2-3 carriers
oh and that's 75% not counting skill points, just raw bonus from weapons, traits, consoles.
My Engineer is built for all of you to say: WTF??? And, How the hell is he able to do that? And then go to the forums and cry Nerf.
I don't know what he's talking about, Cryptic...but damn it, he obviously needs to be nerfed!