I mostly play engineers and I find that when I do pvp I generally fall into hawking down targets that try to run. Were the engineer falls flat compared to the other two classes fro group play, they do have personal survival as a edge. its a bit less dangerous for them to go charging off after someone, but its only a slight edge. It is a viable role however, running a wounded target to ground, even if the goal is just to keep that target in combat. still its a niche role, and not one that couldn't be done by another class ultimately.
The whole games become like that though, pve included. Sci got nerfed, engineering got tweaked, and tacs mostly gotten a buff here and there. but the gear, ships, and various changes have meant that engineers aren't really the ship healers and tanks since anyone's boffs can have top end engi powers. Sci even nerfed brings specific things to the table both pvp and pve that are helpful to their whole team, and tac brings what's become king, more dps, both for them selves and others.
This had lead to a situation were no engineer preforms a role that couldn't be filled or replaced with a sci/tac and be more team friendly that way, and no Sci can preform a role that couldn't be simply replaced by a tac and more dps. So in essence there really is no role in the game that couldn't be replaced by a tac and more dps right now. Ship disparity just adds to it, the tanking ability of a tac captain in a escort right now is on par with anything as engineer can pull off in anything short of a carrier. Bonus def, plus the new crippling fire, which essentially means more def, plus sets that offer yet more def, and the ability to get roughly the same resistances, while delivering far more firepower on target.
MW has also been nerfed from its former glory, and while no longer dependent on crew alive, still isn't what it used to be. don't get me wrong its still a nice "oh ****" button but these days it might buy you about a sec or two against some of the builds out there.
To sum up we are basically in a situation now were its all about class specific abilities and traits, and what they bring to the team table/solo table. and honestly right now engineering in space is lack luster enough that you can just do without one and it wont hurt your team. ground has kits going for it, which helps keep classes more unique, more role defined. I guess you could call it that, role creep, in space you have role creep, anyone can get in any ship and pretty much do what the other classes the ship was built for could do. I should amend that slightly, in that they can slot the boffs in the ship the same way any other class would, the actual performance of the ship then comes down to the class and their abilities that's at the helm, which is were not all captains are equal, and were you see the difference.
My Engineer isn't built to be useful to anyone in PVP.
My Engineer is built for all of you to say: WTF??? And, How the hell is he able to do that? And then go to the forums and cry Nerf.
Well, you must be doing something wrong cause I don't see anyone crying for engie's to be nerfed.
Exactly, the grace underfire gives you a second MW if you take spike damage. The sci and tac traits give you something that is more useful, even if the sci just lets you have a faster photofleet. That spam is more beneficial to the team than a self heal to a ship that doesn't draw the ire of the enemy.
What they need to add is a captain passive for eng that damage resist for the team increases +1% (or some hard number) every minute the ship is alive. That means that if you let the cruiser engineer sit there unmolested then you risk the rest of their team being more tanky as the fight goes on. It lets you ignore the cruiser for periods of time, but not forever. The kicker could be the resistance doesn't impact the the eng's own ship. Call it Engineering Collaboration or something, where the engineer captains ship uses their facilities to devise ways to increase other ship's damage resist over time then shares that knowledge with allied ship's engineers.
One problem I foresee with a passive like this, is if you start getting multiple ships like this, all buffing their team to ridiculous resistance levels. It would need some kind of cap or mitigating factor.
One point to make to the thread as a whole, with regard to engineers as healers is that your higher power levels also mean that you can pump out much bigger heals to the team. If my EPS manifold trait causes my Auxiliary to be 125, and I throw Hazard Emitters or the like at you, your heal and resist is going to be significantly higher. This principle applies to other such things. We're talking about better Extend Shields, etc. I'm not so sure I would entirely dismiss the engineer offhand like this, and I say this as someone who is more preferential to Science and Tactical.
I'm just going to comment on the "engs = moar powah!" aspect:
Sure, being an engineer lets you run higher power levels. But is that really helpful in today's PvP? There are so many ways of getting additional power in systems -- investing into system performance skills, using Borg set, etc. -- that it's fairly easy to get to a constant 125 power in at least two systems, especially if you're cycling at least a rank 1 version of EPtX. I've found that for most builds, two systems at 125 power is good enough, and that any additional power that can be spread around is a marginal boost at best. For example, a healboat only really needs 125 power in shields and aux, and can make do with 30-40 power in weapons and engines.
In addition, EPS manifold efficiency as a trait is one of the lackluster ones -- an extra +10 power boost to other systems is rather small, and the power boost doesn't even last the full duration of an EPtX activation (even with 9 ranks in batteries).
Even EPS Power Transfer doesn't help much. Once you get 125 power in the two systems that are most important for your build, any extra power to the other two systems tends to be of marginal use, especially when you consider the fact that EPS Power Transfer takes up a capt. power slot. For example, as a healboat I'd be using EPS Power Transfer for extra power to engines and weapons -- but that doesn't really help me in my primary job of healing people. It's of minor use, sure, but nowhere near as useful as a Tac or Sci capt. ability would have been.
In short, if you think that engineers are balanced compared to scis and tacs because they can get more power in their ship, I'd disagree.
I was finally able to bring my eng out of mothballs for pvp with a fbp pvp build that works because when an opponent think they can tank my fbp and kill me first I can pop mw and out tank him. Its incedibly niche but it lets me play a toon I would have normally ignored and have a good laugh while I am at it.
this whole thread is very upsetting, I asked in the ship build thread for the most effective pvp build, and asked if I could do it engineering. I was linked several builds including ren's pug eng build.
In short, if you think that engineers are balanced compared to scis and tacs because they can get more power in their ship, I'd disagree.
With EPS Manifold Efficiency, they can get a base +40 Power...+10/subsystem via DCE'd EPtX/Y or AtB'd EPtX/Y. That will be affected by the various Efficiency/Performance things.
They've also got the temporary boost from EPS Power Transfer.
It's not a case that they're sporting oodles and oodles of power compared to other Careers. Course, if somebody wanted to argue that they did - grab an Eng in a balanced power ship and put a Tac or Sci in a non-balanced power Warbird. Yes, it can give the appearance of the Eng having 400-500+ total power compared to the Tac/Sci having ~250 total power. But the actual comparisons to be made there should be the Eng vs. Tac/Sci in a balanced power ship and the Eng vs. Tac/Sci in the non-balanced power Warbird...apples and oranges. (Yes, I've seen somebody try to make that comparison).
A question that would arise in regard to subsystem power levels, though, is how difficult is it for the average person to maintain at least 75 power in 3 systems?
Why do I ask? Have you seen the [AMP] mod on those Cores?
Some how integrate aggro into PvP with Eng. specked into threat control. More points you have in it and longer you are alive your teams gets higher def. bonus. Also have ability where you can guard an ally where damage is mitigated on to you. Make this something unique to Eng. captains not a boff or a doff
Small sample size, but, I have been playing some pvp as an eng (very poor gear) using Ren's build (all healing, power and staying alive stuff), pure heals and living no damage. I have been pugging or picking up a friend or 2 and grouping. Even in bad gear I am generally top of the heals and usually have more total total heals and damage then anyone else (about 96% of it heals) and feel that I contribute to wins. I usually die 0 or 1 times and alot of my gear is only common lvl (but it is the right gear), cept for universal consoles.
when an eng isn't getting shot by 5 people, he is effectively a tac captain that doesn't use any of his captain skills
When engineering gets mines and turrets back in space maps I'll be a happy little engineer. Why those were taken away is anyones guess. Oh I know. Because actual tactical abilities in space are very meager. Extremely so. It would have been nice if more thought had been put into the attack pattern model, instead of just TRIBBLE grabbing the tools of science and engineering to flesh out tactical.
Comments
The whole games become like that though, pve included. Sci got nerfed, engineering got tweaked, and tacs mostly gotten a buff here and there. but the gear, ships, and various changes have meant that engineers aren't really the ship healers and tanks since anyone's boffs can have top end engi powers. Sci even nerfed brings specific things to the table both pvp and pve that are helpful to their whole team, and tac brings what's become king, more dps, both for them selves and others.
This had lead to a situation were no engineer preforms a role that couldn't be filled or replaced with a sci/tac and be more team friendly that way, and no Sci can preform a role that couldn't be simply replaced by a tac and more dps. So in essence there really is no role in the game that couldn't be replaced by a tac and more dps right now. Ship disparity just adds to it, the tanking ability of a tac captain in a escort right now is on par with anything as engineer can pull off in anything short of a carrier. Bonus def, plus the new crippling fire, which essentially means more def, plus sets that offer yet more def, and the ability to get roughly the same resistances, while delivering far more firepower on target.
MW has also been nerfed from its former glory, and while no longer dependent on crew alive, still isn't what it used to be. don't get me wrong its still a nice "oh ****" button but these days it might buy you about a sec or two against some of the builds out there.
To sum up we are basically in a situation now were its all about class specific abilities and traits, and what they bring to the team table/solo table. and honestly right now engineering in space is lack luster enough that you can just do without one and it wont hurt your team. ground has kits going for it, which helps keep classes more unique, more role defined. I guess you could call it that, role creep, in space you have role creep, anyone can get in any ship and pretty much do what the other classes the ship was built for could do. I should amend that slightly, in that they can slot the boffs in the ship the same way any other class would, the actual performance of the ship then comes down to the class and their abilities that's at the helm, which is were not all captains are equal, and were you see the difference.
Well, you must be doing something wrong cause I don't see anyone crying for engie's to be nerfed.
@DevolvedOne
One problem I foresee with a passive like this, is if you start getting multiple ships like this, all buffing their team to ridiculous resistance levels. It would need some kind of cap or mitigating factor.
One point to make to the thread as a whole, with regard to engineers as healers is that your higher power levels also mean that you can pump out much bigger heals to the team. If my EPS manifold trait causes my Auxiliary to be 125, and I throw Hazard Emitters or the like at you, your heal and resist is going to be significantly higher. This principle applies to other such things. We're talking about better Extend Shields, etc. I'm not so sure I would entirely dismiss the engineer offhand like this, and I say this as someone who is more preferential to Science and Tactical.
Sure, being an engineer lets you run higher power levels. But is that really helpful in today's PvP? There are so many ways of getting additional power in systems -- investing into system performance skills, using Borg set, etc. -- that it's fairly easy to get to a constant 125 power in at least two systems, especially if you're cycling at least a rank 1 version of EPtX. I've found that for most builds, two systems at 125 power is good enough, and that any additional power that can be spread around is a marginal boost at best. For example, a healboat only really needs 125 power in shields and aux, and can make do with 30-40 power in weapons and engines.
In addition, EPS manifold efficiency as a trait is one of the lackluster ones -- an extra +10 power boost to other systems is rather small, and the power boost doesn't even last the full duration of an EPtX activation (even with 9 ranks in batteries).
Even EPS Power Transfer doesn't help much. Once you get 125 power in the two systems that are most important for your build, any extra power to the other two systems tends to be of marginal use, especially when you consider the fact that EPS Power Transfer takes up a capt. power slot. For example, as a healboat I'd be using EPS Power Transfer for extra power to engines and weapons -- but that doesn't really help me in my primary job of healing people. It's of minor use, sure, but nowhere near as useful as a Tac or Sci capt. ability would have been.
In short, if you think that engineers are balanced compared to scis and tacs because they can get more power in their ship, I'd disagree.
there seems to be some disconnect here.
With EPS Manifold Efficiency, they can get a base +40 Power...+10/subsystem via DCE'd EPtX/Y or AtB'd EPtX/Y. That will be affected by the various Efficiency/Performance things.
They've also got the temporary boost from EPS Power Transfer.
It's not a case that they're sporting oodles and oodles of power compared to other Careers. Course, if somebody wanted to argue that they did - grab an Eng in a balanced power ship and put a Tac or Sci in a non-balanced power Warbird. Yes, it can give the appearance of the Eng having 400-500+ total power compared to the Tac/Sci having ~250 total power. But the actual comparisons to be made there should be the Eng vs. Tac/Sci in a balanced power ship and the Eng vs. Tac/Sci in the non-balanced power Warbird...apples and oranges. (Yes, I've seen somebody try to make that comparison).
A question that would arise in regard to subsystem power levels, though, is how difficult is it for the average person to maintain at least 75 power in 3 systems?
Why do I ask? Have you seen the [AMP] mod on those Cores?
Second this^
When engineering gets mines and turrets back in space maps I'll be a happy little engineer. Why those were taken away is anyones guess. Oh I know. Because actual tactical abilities in space are very meager. Extremely so. It would have been nice if more thought had been put into the attack pattern model, instead of just TRIBBLE grabbing the tools of science and engineering to flesh out tactical.
EDIT: Hai DDIS! *waves*