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Are engineers even now?
sophlogimo
Member Posts: 6,507 Arc User
With the LOR changes, now that we all have had time to figure out how to apply them best... woul you say that engineers are now even in PvP?
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Wheeeeeee!
Well, not for a team...
/10OhEeOhAhAhDingDangWallaWallaBingBang
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
It is not that the eng is useless, he can be respectable, but going into a tough match I choose Sci in the same boat just to be able to put more powers out into the world instead of internalize them.
Sometimes I die without MW, but that happens less often than the team benefits from an extra SNB with the same Boff heals available. It all comes down to probability of application of the captain abilities for me, and my teams play style. I just find that I don't get attacked that often and if I do then my team takes that as a green light to go on a kill fest since my escorts are free and clear. It also helps having tractor mines and other hold abilities between me and the sci/recluse on the team.
We typically fly 2-3 sci cruiser/carrier/wells and 3-2 tac escort. Eng are fun for me personally in pve and there are possibly other play styles where the team benefits from the eng captain, but just not ours till the captain abilities are more useful or the cruiser receives more constant aggro in pvp matches, such as the eps or some other passive that substantially boosts the team's dps, heal ability, or resistance over time.
Exactly, the grace underfire gives you a second MW if you take spike damage. The sci and tac traits give you something that is more useful, even if the sci just lets you have a faster photofleet. That spam is more beneficial to the team than a self heal to a ship that doesn't draw the ire of the enemy.
What they need to add is a captain passive for eng that damage resist for the team increases +1% (or some hard number) every minute the ship is alive. That means that if you let the cruiser engineer sit there unmolested then you risk the rest of their team being more tanky as the fight goes on. It lets you ignore the cruiser for periods of time, but not forever. The kicker could be the resistance doesn't impact the the eng's own ship. Call it Engineering Collaboration or something, where the engineer captains ship uses their facilities to devise ways to increase other ship's damage resist over time then shares that knowledge with allied ship's engineers.
Heck have the damage resistance reset if the engineer pops MW or dies.
QFT ariggedingbingding
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
If you're still in the mindset that Engineers are an auto-loss for a team, I urge you to get a team together and message me in-game for a challenge match.
@DevolvedOne
They didn't make an engineer more necessary. Engineers can still be useful (like I don't doubt at all that Skurf makes great use of an engineer for example), but they still aren't needed.
Ok /trollmode off,
I do in fact they got a little bit more back in favor with the new Metagame and all the cloakers around.
Subnucs arent necessarily needed to kill, and Engi's might actually have a spot in teams again even if it was to tank everyone and let the killers to their job.
But if your killers cant kill without nukes, I guess its a different story. Long drawn out matches... (Honestly I havent seen those matches in a while though)
Now I'm not going to say players like Jedi Master Yoda can't smoke me like rolled up dollar bill. They can. Thankfully there are not that many Yoda quality players out there.
With double extends, 13k engineering teams and a 8-9k augtosif3 I literally force attention to be spent upon me in pvp. And every second I can squeeze out of my fleet ambassador is priceless time for my team mates. And I can squeeze a lot. Short of ungodly Yoda types I typically don't break a sweat even when double sub-nuc.
Brody
Yeah, I'd say things are pretty even. I was almost impossible to kill, dealt plenty of damage though, not as much as an escort which it shouldn't be able to do anyways, kept the rest of my teammates healed and going.
So the way I see it, ENG ships are more powerful than escorts. What they can do besides dealing a crapload of damage surpasses them no doubt.
I have never been able to compel the enemy to engage my cruiser with and engie. I too run 2ES but if they had to chose between me and the other 4noncruisers I find organized teams spend time with someone else. They may test me but it only happens once, early on.
I am not saying I am indestructible, but the path of least resistance is not through the cruiser and with out anything else to modify that there is no reason for them to try to tackle me. Others pop easier.
I think those that fights often are aware the eng is not a TRIBBLE, but I feel there is something lacking in the role of the eng commanding a cruiser, opposed to a science in the cruiser.
The op talks about eng getting a lift, I contend the cruiser got a lift but the eng, while useful, is less useful than an equally skilled and equiped sci at heals and the sci captain holds the ability to subnuke. That snb might not be bottom line essential but more useful than a pure tank ability of eng since heals are driven by boffs. I still don't draw their fire as sci but I am able to use my highest captain ability and be more useful.
I just don't know what the eng does better in pvp that is highly relevant in pvp. I don't view pure tanking relevant if the tank doesn't get targeted regularly.
maybe they lack in damage because they need to tank/heal and not do damage?!:rolleyes:
Ican understand that unfortunately the grinds limit my ability to have competitive alts quickly and my kdf alt fleet is woefully understaffed for star base projects. I was in the orion syndicaye but the leader did not appear stable to commit long term. I bounced through some fleets before finding one that was less ........emotional.
I should be near completion on kdf eng reputation and grind gear. But I fear new reputations are not far off. If I get caught up theni would like to have a competitive kdf eng.
emp to batts useful to help but i find the emp to weapons to be better. also haveing the fleet plasma infused science console even only one helps for damage alot. the romuland and borg rep that help damage or crit chance also help a lot.
An eng can show up to battle and be felt. But when would an eng ever be better than tac or sci in any ship in a common competitive pvp scenario. It is a matter of performance the eng can be out performed by sci in heal roles and killing in tac roles. There are not common situations that let the eng tank. Tanking =pvp frustration=change target=tanking irrelevant=no eng needed. At keast sci cruiser has abilities to contribute instead of self heals of a ship without damage.
It could be argued that an engineer is the best dedicated healer. It goes back to what you said in a previous post: "I have never been able to compel the enemy to engage my cruiser with and engie." As most people know, the best way to quickly get multiple kills in a match is to take out a dedicated healer. Once he's gone, the other kills can come faster.
I was in a premade vs. premade match yesterday where I was the main healer on my team and was on my engie, whereas the other team had all science captains for their healers. They tried to focus me once and barely scratched me (I didn't have to use MW or RSP) and after that they never tried again. That means every other person on my team has a higher chance to stay alive because 1) I'm not wasting heals on myself and 2) I'm still actually there to heal. We were able to take out their dedicated healer easier than they could take out ours because he was a science captain (even though he was in the same ship as me, a Recluse), and once he was dead we would always get 1-3 more kills before he was able to rejoin the fight.
Just a little food for thought.
@DevolvedOne
Could you have stayed alive with a sci cap then too? There might be a skill gap between you and other recluse or you team either was more powerful or lucky. If you didn't need MW/RSP then you could have swapped out for a sci in your build and had the same outcome. I am not sure we can resolve this anecdotally. I am going to have to test this with some fleet mates in more controlled conditions. Compare apples to apples if you will.
In that exact situation, sure I could have stayed alive with a sci captain so maybe it wasn't the best example to use, but just the most recent, and perhaps if I was a sci they may have focused me more. I have a sci Recluse healer as well and it seems that I do draw more damage/blow up more in it. Anyway, my point was that deterring people from focusing on the healer is a good thing. And at the same time, if they do focus on the healer it's easier to tank as an engie.
As I said, I have a Recluse healer on both sci and eng. There's quite a bit of difference on the builds I use for them, not because one's an engie and the other sci, but because the teams I fly them on are different and call for different synergy (sci is on my fed and eng on my kdf). I'll post my engie build because that's what this thread is about and it's a well-rounded hull and shield heal build, but realize it's not necessarily an engie build, it's more of a Recluse build. The engie does play a part in it though. For instance, as an engie I feel safer not having to cycle EPtS so I use just 1 copy (EPtS2) and only use it when I'm getting focused.
http://skillplanner.stoacademy.com/?build=kratomeng_0
For doffs I use 3 Purple Maintenance Engineer EPtA Doffs (boosts emitter array and hull repair by 25 each) and 2 Purple Development Lab Doffs (puts Sci Team to global cooldown after use).
And now you know my heal hax :x
@DevolvedOne
I have to ask Bob, and you are far from the only person to express this sentiment, but why would Engineers ever be about damage in the first place.
A little background, I've played quite a few of MMOs. Some PvP, some PvE, a good deal of "endgame" raid type stuff (Not WoW, never played it).
When I came to STO, within the first 15 mins of reading up on classes it was pretty "clear" (at the time) to me that Engineers were self-contained tanks or in other words that they were designed to allow a player to be a mitigation specialist.
Fast forward to now, and it still baffles me that people could assume that Engineers were ever designed to be anything except for the premier mitigation specialist.
Does that really make sense in PvP?
It doesn't actually matter because this game was not designed with PvP in mind.
(Obviously it matters as us to players, but from a Developer perspective they're probably confused why players would think Engineers should be doing damage like Tacs or be "support" like Sci).
[QUOTE=masterkeychnk5;11248381[/quote]
I do in fact they got a little bit more back in favor with the new Metagame and all the cloakers around.
Subnucs arent necessarily needed to kill, and Engi's might actually have a spot in teams again even if it was to tank everyone and let the killers to their job.
But if your killers cant kill without nukes, I guess its a different story. Long drawn out matches... (Honestly I havent seen those matches in a while though)[/QUOTE]
Its certainly possible, I think the current meta needs another month to simmer in the pot before we all can really assess what changes were brought in with LoR.
my thought is the most likely fix will be more situational pvp. Doesnt mess with abilities and all, but I yhink straight up pvp matches are faster and played more often. Situational pvp will need greater dil reward and pvp marks if they launch a pvp rep system.
This is why I think engineer is the best class for carriers, not sci. You can draw the enemies fire when using a carrier with all kind of annoying pets like siphon drones, yellowstones, or interceptors. Or with some pets can actually do enough damage to get kills like with advanced or elite bop pets. By combining drain and shield strip abilities with those bop or equiping siphons for even more drain I can be a threat and a zombie at same time, forcing the team to SNB and focus me. Also running 2 tractors with the doff and 250ish flow caps gets attention really quick, even if it doesn't drain much. I figure anytime my eng gets enemy to waste SNB on me instead of a tac, thats as useful as having a SNB, if not more.