I've been playing this game for roughly 4 month now and I am starting to question myself why. I am, however, not talking about bad customer service, lags, disconnects and an abundance of bugs.
The issue I have arises when you compare STO to a regular game. Let's take the Deus Ex series for example (sorry to everyone who'll reinstall it now:D). Installing any of the games brings you 20-40h thrilling gaming experience. Once you're done you're left with a satisfying feeling. This goes for most normal computer games. What's special about Deus Ex is that you'll find yourself thinking about the storyline. You'll replay the game to find more details. You'll find yourself googling passwords used in game (e.g. panopticon) and reading about the philosophical background of the game. In short, this game literally expanded my horizon and thinking.
Now I know that such an experience is much to ask for. As a matter of fact I was not expecting this of STO, which is my first MMOG anyway. What I am really missing though is this feeling of being done. You never are. There's always a way to find more upgrades. A new ship, better weapons, and so on. I wouldn't mind this that much if there was a point to having those things. But there is not. You don't need any of this gear to finish missions, or anything on the PvE queue. Heck it doesn't even make much sense vor PvP since it's going to take you month or a lot of money to be competitive. At the same time, I really don't find myself fascinated by the missions. I haven't played the Romulans yet but on the Fed side they are ok. But that's it. I can still vividly recall the story of many games that are over ten years old. I cannot do so for STO (Fed). So I don't feel like replaying it. So all that's left is grinding for gear that you don't need anyway. All motivated by this feeling of "not being done yet". You could say, go play the Rom campaign. Yes I could, but once I'm done I'm left with the same issue. Maybe this is a personal thing, maybe I'm not made for an MMOG but I am really looking for some more depth. Some purpose. I am missing it.
Well you might think I am complaining about the grind now. Sort of yes, but I mean something else. The actual problem I see with STO is the product it sells. A normal computer game you buy, you pay once and you get content. STO on the other hand does not sell you content. You can achieve everything for free. The way STO, or Cryptic in this case, makes money is by selling you your own time. Everything you can buy in game is for the sole purpose of shortening the amount of time you require to get to it. I installed STO because I am a fan of Star Trek and always dreamt of just taking a ship for a spin. STO certainly delivers on that. It does however fail at keeping me fascinated with content and experiences. If you want people to stick to something there is a point were you have to offer more than better and better items for no purpose. The reason why this is being done is because it's the one way to sell us our own time. So in essence the problem lies at the core of the business model. Take the dilithium mine for example. It doesn't really deliver new content but just brings endless possibilities of selling time. The weirdest thing is that people actually beg for more and more grind items to be added. It's like a hamsters wheel. However I believe that more and more a realizing how empty this actually feels. Nevertheless, everything that is added to this game has to be made with reference to this business model and I believe that's an issue. If Cryptic were to sell actual content, and not just things that shorten the time to get there, they would actually have to concentrate more on making good content so that people are motivated to buy it.
I know a business model can't be changed over night and if you want to stay f2p you can't stop with selling time, but how about adding some content that has to be bought? Such as well made special missions for 10-50 zen that you play for the content and because it might even get you thinking (no new items!)? Or competitions? Or more missions that you are summoned to randomly such as the New Romulus ones? Or a more player driven environment? Or some special summer event missions? Or a museum were you can walk through all the historical ships* of the tv series? You could even have holographic McCoys etc. guiding you around and telling you lots of anecdotes. You could also add a museum holodeck were you can replay the series missions and have to make some own decisions.
Or in short: Things were the focus is not on a reward in terms of marks, dilithium, EC, Lobi and items but the experience itself! Start charging for experience, not items and time!
So what do you guys think? Why did you start playing STO and most of all why are you still sticking to it? What ideas for actual content without grind do you have?
*As a matter of fact you could start programming some specific interior for the ships you actually bought and paid for! My defiant interior looks the same as a full blown cruiser and I was pretty disappointed by that! It just stands for how much emphasis is put on time rather than content.
one of the things i like about the game is there is something new to do every few months or every day when new foundry missions are being posted but its swioched off at the moment
Perfect World Entertainment runs the show, not Cryptic Studios. CS just adds new content, by the direction of PWE.
And on that side, new content is as it is; that business model you are talking about, it comes down to a statistical possibility that a player will "shorten" its gameplay by purchasing in game items when a new content is released. For that reason no new content, without possibility to sell the product, will be introduced. It will, at some degree.. And that immersion you are talking about, it's not quite achievable in F2P game models; as you stated, it is not about that, it is about turning out a profit. It is a business, game industry, and there are a few companies that actually value the experience of the game as opposed from just earning a profit and return sales. And I am talking solely about MMOG, with F2P models. Other games may or may not have the same problems.
And to answer the question; it is the only game of it's kind, and I can live with this model. It is, after all, free. You can buy anything for free, if you have enough patience.
I Started playing STO because I wanted to test out a MMO, but dislike the lame variants like LoR or now Neverwinter (Mid-evil fantasy worlds are kinda boring) or EvE where the primary goal of all players seem to be to scam, cheat or kill the others.
Recently, I am here more to spend time with my fleet, than an actual interest in the game... If my fleet leaves, I am fairly sure there will no longer be a reason for me to log on.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I log in more to chat with people but to get interested in the game again they would have to revert everything to season 5 as that was where my interest peaked but that will never happen... back then there was less profit to be made
I was ecstatic about LoR to the point I spent money on STO for the first time in a good long while. But here I am experiencing that "I'm done" feeling the OP is talking about. I got through the content--which was great--but here I am once again at "end-game," shrugging my shoulders and wondering what it was all for.
I don't think I will ever understand the grind mentality--the process of grinding through repeatable missions for gear so that you can do those same repeatable missions in less time. It just doesn't make sense to slog through content to earn the stuff you wanted to play with during that content in the first place; you burn yourself out chasing the carrot for so long that the journey itself becomes loathsome.
MMOs really need to figure out how to make the end-game as exciting and fresh as the journey to get there. That or simply do away with the dinosaur concept of an end-game completely. It's silly.
What it boils down to is that I think I'm simply done with this game. Every big update looks like it's going to come dripping with new grinds all geared toward getting you pissed off and impatient enough to spend money.
Thank the Maker I'm not stupid enough to fall for it anymore.
What it boils down to is that I think I'm simply done with this game. Every big update looks like it's going to come dripping with new grinds all geared toward getting you pissed off and impatient enough to spend money.
Exactly this, it would be nice if the content designers would come down here and ask us what WE want and what we would LIKE to spend our money on rather than boring us to the point we spend money because the alternative is more boring.
So what do you guys think? Why did you start playing STO and most of all why are you still sticking to it? What ideas for actual content without grind do you have?
*As a matter of fact you could start programming some specific interior for the ships you actually bought and paid for! My defiant interior looks the same as a full blown cruiser and I was pretty disappointed by that! It just stands for how much emphasis is put on time rather than content.
I have strated playing less and less. Due to the abundance of bugs, lack of customer service and just complete disregard of the STO fans that this game has built up over the years.
PWE/Cryptic has become nothing more then a money grubbing company. Yes they have to make money, but not nickel and dime you every chance they get. I have canceled my Gold sub due to this, and will no longer be getting anymore Zen.
I will only continue my Gold if any only if they start caring about their customers, and improve their customer service team. And lower the insane pries on the Zen store, sorry 300 -500 Zen for costume unlocks, and respects is asinine. Not to mention the fact that bugs they just won't fix, and tickets never getting answered, like mine. It's been now almost 2 months and I have had the same bug on my character.
I gave up complaining or reporting it because people say it's my fault, so okay if it is, no more money for PWE and no more Gold.
If this game gets taken over by another company that actually cares, then I will take the plunge again, but at this point I am playing less and less, and just starting not to care.
To be quite honest I agree with many of the OP's points.
Currently I'm grinding through Omega/Romulan Rep and I ask myself, am I purely getting gear for the sheer sake of it? Am I getting Borg, Klingon Honour Guard and Omega tech simply to make my life easier to grind through even more STF's to get the next level of shiny gear thats on offer?
If you look at it objectively you have to ask yourself WTH are you doing with your time?
So yes OP, there is no actual goal to the game, no accolades or "Well done Admiral you saved the Universe" shiny cutscene at the end. But thats an MMO for you. Expect lengthy grind and nothing more.
Why do I play the game? For the simple reason its Star Trek and sure its not brilliant and somewhat rough around the edges but the game can have its moments of greatness. Teaming up with friends for PVE can also be a lot of fun in this game.
Its interesting the OP uses Deus Ex as a comparison. Great game certainly the original and the most recent one too but they're single player games that you complete in 40 hours and may replay eventually.
STO by comparison I have sunk 100's of hours into. Sure it has no end goal but thats why people come back to it because it never ends. Grindy it may be at times but at least its free, its up to the individual how much of their own personal budget they want to invest into it and to be fair it offers a lot of entertainment.
Sure I'd like to see more content but I accept the game how it is. When it becomes too repetitive I just take a break and play something else anyway.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon, taH pagh, taH be"
I Started playing STO because I wanted to test out a MMO, but dislike the lame variants like LoR or now Neverwinter (Mid-evil fantasy worlds are kinda boring) or EvE where the primary goal of all players seem to be to scam, cheat or kill the others.
Recently, I am here more to spend time with my fleet, than an actual interest in the game... If my fleet leaves, I am fairly sure there will no longer be a reason for me to log on.
you know what eve stand for in the name??????? Everyone versus Everyone = eve
The problem is this is the most complicated MMO to make, this is 4 games with two very different factions that each have a diversity of characters, gear, tactics, and ships to balance, while adhering to a very long and established tradition with an active near adversarial partner (CBS) in making new content. There are many factors that make this uniquely difficult to pull off: number of games wrapped up in sto, meddling in dev's work, limited usefulness of sci and eng to win, and grind focused game play.
The 4 games are ground pve, ground pvp, space pve, and space pve. I consider them different because they are entirely different from each other. What works in pvp doesn't in pve of the same type to similiar effectiveness. Because I like pvp and pve i am limited to specific pvp builds in order to be competitive. The lack of available builds to be effective in all facets of sto impact enjoyment the game. This is not a dev issue, this is a matter that programming AIs are just not up to snuff with people therefore balance in pve and pvp is absolutely impossible. This is why i feel that separate/duplicate skill trees and ship layouts should be set aside for pvp and pve. The skill tree simplification too the sophistication out of build making, warp cores are adding that back, and more slots on a ship (not just more console slots) can help with personalization of a ship.
Further the devs are tied to the star trek universe and probably cant develop as they wish because CBS ties their hands and there are limits put on what they can do because this is Star Trek and not a new fresh idea.
Third this is a very linear game near solely dps focused. The joy in the trek shows was that any shirt color could save the day. Right now two shirt colors are regulated to support. Now this is not a show, this is a game, but the feel of trek isn't here. Just the appearance. This is not a bash on escorts/tac, they function properly and are not OP. The problem is there is no way to win without killing things. Disables should knock things out FTW there should be other measures of losing a ship than hull strength, perhaps computer core corruption or power system capture i don't know, but something. This is Star Trek, the focus is exploration and combat didn't always result in smoldering hulks adrift. Cap and Hold is a good mission, more situational PvP could be added, such as escort freighter missions, protection, or challenged search and rescue. Still that leaves problems for PvE.
Grinds are the point of pve for the most part. Instead of working on something new and novel to accomplish there is just another reputation or holding that requires the same old missions to be run daily. The starbase is a GREAT idea, but didnt implement well. Developments should have been much much cheaper for all fleets, to give small fleets a chance, then have provisions cost an arm, a leg, and part of a pointy ear. This way all fleets get to advance in the system, and the big fleets had to put in extra if they wanted the benefits for the starbase. The way they implemented the starbase is contributing greatly to the grind and taking away from Foundry play where more can find enjoyment in the variety.
The one thing devs could do is provide us with a 'users' manual for the skills, gear, traits, and weapons together, I have routinely suggested a 'holosuite' program at Quarks where we pay GPL to play scenarios of Star Trek lore (such as the TOS movies, etc). This could also be a way to test new builds and ships in limited scenarios (with no reward). This would allow us to experiment without respecing or buying expensive consoles off the exchange to find them lack luster.
Right now I play because of friends and I really enjoy some aspects of the game, unfortunately to be competitive in pvp i have to do a bunch of pve grind, and it seems that it will be harder in the future to balance my ship and skill build to meet both efficiently. (time yourself in episodes solo for a tac esc and a eng cruiser) Token specialty optionals are thrown in on occasion, but really missions need to be specific to the ship type. For my engineer I started flying an escort just to get through the mid level missions, because to make them harder it was necessary to just add more ships but not drastically increase enemy dps that makes my escorts die.
Maybe a group of foundry missions can be clustered and a significant reward added to them to include a true choice of marks if the group is completed. The foundry is great, but underutilized and under valued from a reputation system standpoint. Devs can lean on community material that is more creative, doesn't adhere to the same limitations as they have, but it competes with grind time. Just let the grind happen through the foundry. Link 5-8 SPECIFIC foundry missions into a chain with 50000 dilithium and 150 choice marks or something (numbers just pulled out of air). Then if someone makes a foundry chain themselves give them a special wardrobe item, or ribbon for their uniform, something (uniform ribbons and medals would be awesome too, especially for accolades). While my ideas are not fully fleshed out, kids are screaming in the back ground be fed or washed or talked to-who knows, I just wanted to put some things out there and see what sticks.
Bugs don't bother me for an evolving game. The customer service is ok, considering their likely level of customer interaction and their limited budget for it. I think game play needs more diversity and the focus of all future developments is on FUN not grind. Some kind of ongoing fleet tournament would be nice. Rewards could even be starbase or holdings experience points to allow for immediate upgrades. I support the devs, they are trying to do things right and look forward to the future.
This is a fun game, a fun game with lots of potential that is still in development.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
I was ecstatic about LoR to the point I spent money on STO for the first time in a good long while. But here I am experiencing that "I'm done" feeling the OP is talking about. I got through the content--which was great--but here I am once again at "end-game," shrugging my shoulders and wondering what it was all for.
I don't think I will ever understand the grind mentality--the process of grinding through repeatable missions for gear so that you can do those same repeatable missions in less time. It just doesn't make sense to slog through content to earn the stuff you wanted to play with during that content in the first place; you burn yourself out chasing the carrot for so long that the journey itself becomes loathsome.
MMOs really need to figure out how to make the end-game as exciting and fresh as the journey to get there. That or simply do away with the dinosaur concept of an end-game completely. It's silly.
What it boils down to is that I think I'm simply done with this game. Every big update looks like it's going to come dripping with new grinds all geared toward getting you pissed off and impatient enough to spend money.
Thank the Maker I'm not stupid enough to fall for it anymore.
Aye, I hear and agree with you.
Every time they big up the hype surrounding a new update, the following fallout from the mountain of bugs makes me dread the future updates, rather than look forward too them.
Every time they big up the hype surrounding a new update, the following fallout from the mountain of bugs makes me dread the future updates, rather than look forward too them.
Bugs are another problem that's making it difficult for me to log in. Specifically the little ones like cosmetic issues. I can't match colors on some of my Romulan outfits because the pallets are wonky and sometimes get shared with other costume pieces. I'm also peeved that I spent dilithium on a weapon that shoots from the floor under my character and not from the weapon itself.
They're annoying little gnats of bugs, but they add up. Big bugs don't bother me as much since they tend to get squashed with each update, but that's part of the problem: Cryptic keeps chasing the big-picture bugs while all the little ones linger--in some cases for years.
I personally just love the mix of ground and Space in STO.
On one hand i love the size and openness of games like this. I also love the fact that is is continously evolving and expanding (well more or less), compared to a singleplayer game. As a player i love NOT to be the center of attention, like in a singleplayer game. (It is almost like a second identity.)
I love the huge amount of customization (ships AND character) and long therm goals/motivation in STO or other MMOs.
No singleplayer game comes even close to this.
On the other hand i deeply hate the (subliminal forced) socialization in todays Singleplayergames and MMOs in general. When i play a game i just want to focus on the game and not on people talking about politics/religion or what they think of "funny" stuff or other things that don't belong to that game.
When i want to meet people i go out and meet some real friends in person, i don't need or want 100000 Facebook/MMO "friends".
So in the end it is a real love/hate relation i have with todays games.
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
I play STO because I like the visuals and the "feel" of the game, the genre. Sure, it's not perfect but I've been playing online games practically since the beginning of the internet (seriously, if you knew how old I am in RL you'd laugh and hand me a "Depends") but none of these games is perfect. STO has 4 games in one, as has been mentioned. I like that, as well as the extreme variety of races and ships to build.
The grind? I don't mind the grind because I save the newly "grinded gear" for my next character to use, so I can level him faster and experience another game aspect. I'd like to see one ( and only one) set of reputation grade space and ground gear that can be made/chosen account rather than character bound though; but the harder and better something is to get, the more fun it is too have. It's interesting and fun to "grind" using different ships/builds to see which works best. So far, each has its own advantage and disadvantage and it's fun to see hich build works best overall, I don't specialize, I generalize.
I will commit STO heresy here by saying, without shame, that I like PUGS!. Sometimes you get good teams and sometimes bad and it's a challnge to figure out quickly which it is and try to exert some leadership to improve the less experienced players so as to avoid a total "PUG Wipeout" (15-0 PUGS are a "fail". anything less is a win depending on the level of the opposing team. To me, 14-1 against an extremely well coordinated, extremely well equipped team is just as satisfying a win as a 0-15 win against a group of disorganized inexperienced players). There is one group of Germans, in a fleet, that is so good that if I can get a 13-2 loss I may throw myself a party.
The gear and dilithium and star base tiers SHOULD BE hard to get and take forever to get! That's the whole point! Was it Thomas Paine who said "That which we achieve too easily, we esteem to lightly".
What's the point of "grinding for gear?" It depends. For me, winning, in one way or another in PVP and making it through a difficult PVE solo without being blown-up even once is the goal and satisfying.
Let me summarize the majority of the forum POSTs to save people time:
1. The game is great; The game stinks.
2. The visuls are great; The visuals stink.
3. They finally fixed the "x" bug; They never fix anything.
4. I upgraded to "gold"; I canceled my subsciption.
5.LOR is great: LOR stinks/ was disappointing.
6. I finally broke down and spent zen on "x" and am glad; The C-store is a rip-off and I hate them.
7. That's a good ship build; Your build stinks.
8. I love this game; I quit.
The game is what you make it. I like it. Please post your words of agreement, disagreement and ad hominum attacks, but please, no profanity. It's tedious. I doubt there is a swear word I haven't heard and I don't want to "grind" a dictionary to look one up if I haven't. See you at my next warp core explosion, hopefully I will be warping away from yours, not you from mine.
To the OP: the missions/episodes are the single-player/co-op game. Once you finish that and get to level 50, it essentially becomes a mulitplayer game, with fleets, PVP, STFs, etc becoming available. You dont have to play that part of the game (likewise you dont have to play the SP/co-op part either), but it exists and is there for you to experience if you want.
To answer your question: I play because I like space sims, and I like thinking about multiplayer game design and theory. ST isnt really a space sim but its got some interesting game mechanics and I am still exploring some of the elements.
rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 58,669Community Moderator
edited June 2013
I started playing because it was going to go F2P, and I got my hands on a copy of the Collector's Edition. Found a good fleet, been hanging with them ever since.
Still waiting on them to fix the Season 7 MACO bug.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I have always been a Star Trek fan - that is why I am here. I very much enjoyed the storyline episodes, and usually pop in from time to time to replay a few on an alt or to flip doffs...I come and go alot. Why? because it gets boring and too grindy to hold my interest for more than a week or so at a time. Yeah....I already played the new Rom and Klingon missions. I do also enjoy the foundry missions from time to time as a break from the grind-fest that this game has become. Between the fleet grind, rep grind, gear grind, and dil grind........I would rather read to get my Trek fix or re watch an old episode.
I play because it's fun. That's all I demand of any of my games - entertainment. Should it ever cease to entertain me (which it hasn't yet), I will stop playing. And should that ever happen, I won't angst about it, and I probably won't post anything - it's not like I went onto the WoW forums and started spamming them with "I quit!" posts when it started to bore me.
Now, if you're looking for deep, thoughtful exploration of the human experience, my best suggestion is to pick up a good book. This is, after all, just a game...
Umm...because I am a lifelong Star Trek Fan. Because I like games. A lot. Because I have about two hours all to myself until Real Life figures out how to cross the moat and storm the walls. Again.
Why would anyone need anything more from a game?
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Whilst I quite like the concept of MMOs I do prefer those that have some sort of existent background rather than just a cloned fantasy setting..
I gave up with LOTR - it doesnt feel like anything to do with LOTR in atmosphere - in fact it resembles every other fantasy MMO but worse..
Tried SWTOR .. I think they really missed the boat with this one.. The old republic setting doesnt work for me -surely the point of setting a game within a licenced product is to play with that setting and invoke its atmosphere; but setting it before the events of the films (in fact way way way before) just makes it another MMO with SW. Quite like the way the story elements are handled though..
I think in a fashion this is where STO actually gets it right.. There are tips of the hat to items, characters and settings from the films and the TV episodes.(If only it had more voice acting sections)
So I prefer STO for its atmosphere, however like every other MMO it still has all the faults that seem to be the Norm now.. Namely the grind end game and no real direction..
I understand your point as I was reluctant to enter the world of MMORPG's a couple of years ago for the same reasons. With STO there are some differences, however. It is true that there is not that much compelling in the Fed story line. The new Klingon content is MUCH better, IMO, but does "lame out" a bit about halfway thru. The new Romulan story line is excellent and very replayable. There is also the Foundry. By far some of the best content in the game is found in the Foundry and new material is always being added. Beyond that there are social aspects that you can't find in a stand-alone game. Although those aren't nearly as important to me as they are to many others they are nice and can add a touch to the game that can't be found going solo. In short any MMORPG is what you make of it... STO especially.
ADDED: The word from "on high" is that there are plans to revamp the Fed story line to be more compelling and absorbing. It also helps to realize that STO, like most MMORPG's, is very much a "work-in-progress" so you never know what the future will bring.
*STO*Its mission: To destroy strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations... and then kill them, to boldly annihilate what no one has annihilated before!
I mostly play because there are no Star Trek games appearing other than the mindlessly boring and generic Abrams nonsense to cash in from the equally terrible movies. Since Birth Of The Federation isn't looking to be remade any time soon, if ever, then STO is pretty much the only choice left.
And it's nice to be able to play as female for a change, so few games allow for such a thing, and even nicer to actually be able to clothe female characters unlike most MMO's where the developers seem to think that chain mail bikini's are the most clothing that a female ever needs.
I play STO because it's Star Trek. I love Star Trek. I literally grew up with TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, and this game lets me "live" inside Star Trek.
This may or may not be helpful to the discussion, but I'll tell you the sole reason why I am playing this game still:
I have a lifetime account.
It's just that simple. I've actually stopped playing my other MMO (The Old Republic) I canned the first since it was like STO, but without the lifetime benefits of 500 points a month and 'normal' access to the game, without having to pay for daft things like titles, and normal equipment useage!
Back to the subject. I'm one of those rare one character-only players. (Everyone complains about the grind, yet they're willing to do it umpteen times with different characters?REDUNDANT anyone? Aye, you are.) I just log in here for an hour or so a day with my character. I do some grinds for fleet marks and the new faction one, then log off. It's just a mechanical aspect to the game, that's keeping me here. In fact, I don't even consider this Star Trek anymore. It's just...some neatly drawn sci-fi game with space ships, with Captains that have to do everything (are they control freaks? That's a bad captain who does everyone's job on a starship.) And a character that simply shoots things and ignores what the word 'Uniform' means anymore.
I'll just say what I've said for last few years. I really did wish the vapour-ware that was the original concept for this game (ie: Perpetual's screenshots and writing) was the actual gameplay. Everyone feeling like they had a part to play on a starship, working together. Solving problems that didn't always require a phaser and all your red shirts. Something that the players could make last, with their own interactions, as well as the base game elements. (You know what had a better crew, interior? Mass Effect. Just think of the Normandy and you'll think of Joker, laughing it up, till his bones literally crack. Garrus, always 'calibrating something'. That kind of thing. The little character details that added up in the game, and the interactions going on. Granted you were the leader...but imagine just playing that game without the crew and the personalities? Would you still have loved it so and being inside your ship? It's a shame that, Mass Effect 2 for example, had a deeper system for planetary sensors/probes...wait the fact they even had it, and this game doesn't! No exploration! That could have been just one aspect of a science officers duty on a ship. And I mean a real science officer. Not these three 'classes'.)
If I knew how to make a game...I would. But I can't. So to be fair, I'll play this one. But if I could snap my fingers and make 'my vision', well it'd be different from this.
Our characters would have started at the Academy, during our final days there, and picking our field out of more than three options (Command, Science, Medical, Operations, Engineering, Security, Tactical, Navigation, etc). Maybe even be given the Kobayashi Maru-like sim, where there is no right/wrong answer...only facing that life and death situation. That's the best place to learn the ropes, and it gives the place meaning, to start.
After that, everyone would start out as a fresh-faced Ensign inside a ship. Where it goes could be player-made (like a foundry?) or part of the game's randomized travels. Players would then have to earn their ranks, and let's face it...some of you should NOT even be considered to be a Captain, in the first place. Maybe you're the Scotty of the game, or the Dr. McCoy? What matters is your character and interactions, not your rank. Somehow I'd make that the main element of the gameplay. Your character (when logged in), doing things to help the ship the crew and the mission. And of course I would have went with some of those mini-games, like diagnostic repairs, using the astrometrics lab for a system survey...allocating the allotted power for each department, ship equipment at Ops. Flying at the helm. Whatever. And of course you'd have to have reviews of your personal file. Did you earn any commendations? Are you recommended for a promotion, or a position? Did you be a complete TRIBBLE and get yourself court-martialed, because you forgot you were in Starfleet, and not the Klingon Defence Force? (As a way to remove troublesome players who don't fit in.) All of that scored and kept track of by the game and your actions of course.
Maybe there would be a grind of sorts...but it would be a living, breathing starship. And in turn, those starships and crews could go on in actual task forces and fleets to do things. (Imagine four starships, with say 10 players each on average, attempting a patrol or first contact mission in their sector?) That could play out any number of ways...and take any amount of time...for just that! Random events could enter into play, on the ship. Those good old holodeck malfunctions? Check. Some unknown life form attempting communication, or help? Or maybe they're dissecting the crew? Check. Investigate. Play. Be part of a team. Solve problems. That's what I miss about Star Trek and TNG.
Don't even get me started on the ships themselves. Get rid of the three 'classes' again. Ships are defined into scouts, frigates, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, dreadnaughts, etc (no matter if they have more weapons, vs advanced sensors, or a larger crew than normal). There would be more equipment of course. (After all, sickbays are ALWAYS equipped with biobeds. You have to have inertia dampning, or you're all going to be chunky salsa when you go to impulse, let alone warp. EPS conduits are standard. What happened to the neural bio-gel pack relays? Did they get an upgrade, like the old Isolinier chips were to that? Who's maintaining the computer system?
Upgrades, refits, repairs would occasionally mean a trip back to a Starbase, drydock. Heaps of time to go back to the home systems and check-in. Take some shore leave?
I'd give up a lifetime sub, just to get some of this.
Alright, this was a wall of text. Apologies. Went everywhere but to the point eh. Again: I'm just logging in to be a solo bot for a time, then going back to single-player games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Fallout, and Baulder's Gate. STO just...well, it's like going to work for an hour, than taking the day off. I really wouldn't make a fuss if it went under and we all got sacked from it. But I'm still playing along. We're all still playing, who post here, eh. Just be honest to yourself, and your reasons for logging on. That's all we can hope for.
. I really wouldn't make a fuss if it went under and we all got sacked from it. But I'm still playing along. We're all still playing, who post here, eh. Just be honest to yourself, and your reasons for logging on. That's all we can hope for.
You know I liked so much of your post, I think the prevailing frustration is in what the game could be instead of a dps/kill fest.
Your quote struck me that I have wondered if I would be all that upset if/when sto servers go offline. I am pretty sure I would be ok too. I have a LTS as well and without it I would have left a long time ago, i don't really feel like renting games.
In the end I enjoy star trek stuff and my friends, but if they changed games I would too.
PvE Jem'Hadar motto:Participation Ribbonsare life.
- I get to fly around in an end-game Akira-class and kick total TRIBBLE.
- No matter how many times I see it happen, watching a Borg Cube blow up never gets old.
- I get to hear the voice of Denise Crosby.
- my Gorn has this signature finishing move, where he bites you in the neck and walks away as you bleed to death. I love doing that.
- I want to be James T. Kirk when I grow up.
- My fleet's a pretty cool bunch of people.
- And there's a whole galaxy out there to explore. I wanna see it all.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon
Comments
And on that side, new content is as it is; that business model you are talking about, it comes down to a statistical possibility that a player will "shorten" its gameplay by purchasing in game items when a new content is released. For that reason no new content, without possibility to sell the product, will be introduced. It will, at some degree.. And that immersion you are talking about, it's not quite achievable in F2P game models; as you stated, it is not about that, it is about turning out a profit. It is a business, game industry, and there are a few companies that actually value the experience of the game as opposed from just earning a profit and return sales. And I am talking solely about MMOG, with F2P models. Other games may or may not have the same problems.
And to answer the question; it is the only game of it's kind, and I can live with this model. It is, after all, free. You can buy anything for free, if you have enough patience.
Recently, I am here more to spend time with my fleet, than an actual interest in the game... If my fleet leaves, I am fairly sure there will no longer be a reason for me to log on.
I don't think I will ever understand the grind mentality--the process of grinding through repeatable missions for gear so that you can do those same repeatable missions in less time. It just doesn't make sense to slog through content to earn the stuff you wanted to play with during that content in the first place; you burn yourself out chasing the carrot for so long that the journey itself becomes loathsome.
MMOs really need to figure out how to make the end-game as exciting and fresh as the journey to get there. That or simply do away with the dinosaur concept of an end-game completely. It's silly.
What it boils down to is that I think I'm simply done with this game. Every big update looks like it's going to come dripping with new grinds all geared toward getting you pissed off and impatient enough to spend money.
Thank the Maker I'm not stupid enough to fall for it anymore.
Exactly this, it would be nice if the content designers would come down here and ask us what WE want and what we would LIKE to spend our money on rather than boring us to the point we spend money because the alternative is more boring.
I have strated playing less and less. Due to the abundance of bugs, lack of customer service and just complete disregard of the STO fans that this game has built up over the years.
PWE/Cryptic has become nothing more then a money grubbing company. Yes they have to make money, but not nickel and dime you every chance they get. I have canceled my Gold sub due to this, and will no longer be getting anymore Zen.
I will only continue my Gold if any only if they start caring about their customers, and improve their customer service team. And lower the insane pries on the Zen store, sorry 300 -500 Zen for costume unlocks, and respects is asinine. Not to mention the fact that bugs they just won't fix, and tickets never getting answered, like mine. It's been now almost 2 months and I have had the same bug on my character.
I gave up complaining or reporting it because people say it's my fault, so okay if it is, no more money for PWE and no more Gold.
If this game gets taken over by another company that actually cares, then I will take the plunge again, but at this point I am playing less and less, and just starting not to care.
Currently I'm grinding through Omega/Romulan Rep and I ask myself, am I purely getting gear for the sheer sake of it? Am I getting Borg, Klingon Honour Guard and Omega tech simply to make my life easier to grind through even more STF's to get the next level of shiny gear thats on offer?
If you look at it objectively you have to ask yourself WTH are you doing with your time?
So yes OP, there is no actual goal to the game, no accolades or "Well done Admiral you saved the Universe" shiny cutscene at the end. But thats an MMO for you. Expect lengthy grind and nothing more.
Why do I play the game? For the simple reason its Star Trek and sure its not brilliant and somewhat rough around the edges but the game can have its moments of greatness. Teaming up with friends for PVE can also be a lot of fun in this game.
Its interesting the OP uses Deus Ex as a comparison. Great game certainly the original and the most recent one too but they're single player games that you complete in 40 hours and may replay eventually.
STO by comparison I have sunk 100's of hours into. Sure it has no end goal but thats why people come back to it because it never ends. Grindy it may be at times but at least its free, its up to the individual how much of their own personal budget they want to invest into it and to be fair it offers a lot of entertainment.
Sure I'd like to see more content but I accept the game how it is. When it becomes too repetitive I just take a break and play something else anyway.
"You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon, taH pagh, taH be"
you know what eve stand for in the name??????? Everyone versus Everyone = eve
system Lord Baal is dead
The 4 games are ground pve, ground pvp, space pve, and space pve. I consider them different because they are entirely different from each other. What works in pvp doesn't in pve of the same type to similiar effectiveness. Because I like pvp and pve i am limited to specific pvp builds in order to be competitive. The lack of available builds to be effective in all facets of sto impact enjoyment the game. This is not a dev issue, this is a matter that programming AIs are just not up to snuff with people therefore balance in pve and pvp is absolutely impossible. This is why i feel that separate/duplicate skill trees and ship layouts should be set aside for pvp and pve. The skill tree simplification too the sophistication out of build making, warp cores are adding that back, and more slots on a ship (not just more console slots) can help with personalization of a ship.
Further the devs are tied to the star trek universe and probably cant develop as they wish because CBS ties their hands and there are limits put on what they can do because this is Star Trek and not a new fresh idea.
Third this is a very linear game near solely dps focused. The joy in the trek shows was that any shirt color could save the day. Right now two shirt colors are regulated to support. Now this is not a show, this is a game, but the feel of trek isn't here. Just the appearance. This is not a bash on escorts/tac, they function properly and are not OP. The problem is there is no way to win without killing things. Disables should knock things out FTW there should be other measures of losing a ship than hull strength, perhaps computer core corruption or power system capture i don't know, but something. This is Star Trek, the focus is exploration and combat didn't always result in smoldering hulks adrift. Cap and Hold is a good mission, more situational PvP could be added, such as escort freighter missions, protection, or challenged search and rescue. Still that leaves problems for PvE.
Grinds are the point of pve for the most part. Instead of working on something new and novel to accomplish there is just another reputation or holding that requires the same old missions to be run daily. The starbase is a GREAT idea, but didnt implement well. Developments should have been much much cheaper for all fleets, to give small fleets a chance, then have provisions cost an arm, a leg, and part of a pointy ear. This way all fleets get to advance in the system, and the big fleets had to put in extra if they wanted the benefits for the starbase. The way they implemented the starbase is contributing greatly to the grind and taking away from Foundry play where more can find enjoyment in the variety.
The one thing devs could do is provide us with a 'users' manual for the skills, gear, traits, and weapons together, I have routinely suggested a 'holosuite' program at Quarks where we pay GPL to play scenarios of Star Trek lore (such as the TOS movies, etc). This could also be a way to test new builds and ships in limited scenarios (with no reward). This would allow us to experiment without respecing or buying expensive consoles off the exchange to find them lack luster.
Right now I play because of friends and I really enjoy some aspects of the game, unfortunately to be competitive in pvp i have to do a bunch of pve grind, and it seems that it will be harder in the future to balance my ship and skill build to meet both efficiently. (time yourself in episodes solo for a tac esc and a eng cruiser) Token specialty optionals are thrown in on occasion, but really missions need to be specific to the ship type. For my engineer I started flying an escort just to get through the mid level missions, because to make them harder it was necessary to just add more ships but not drastically increase enemy dps that makes my escorts die.
Maybe a group of foundry missions can be clustered and a significant reward added to them to include a true choice of marks if the group is completed. The foundry is great, but underutilized and under valued from a reputation system standpoint. Devs can lean on community material that is more creative, doesn't adhere to the same limitations as they have, but it competes with grind time. Just let the grind happen through the foundry. Link 5-8 SPECIFIC foundry missions into a chain with 50000 dilithium and 150 choice marks or something (numbers just pulled out of air). Then if someone makes a foundry chain themselves give them a special wardrobe item, or ribbon for their uniform, something (uniform ribbons and medals would be awesome too, especially for accolades). While my ideas are not fully fleshed out, kids are screaming in the back ground be fed or washed or talked to-who knows, I just wanted to put some things out there and see what sticks.
Bugs don't bother me for an evolving game. The customer service is ok, considering their likely level of customer interaction and their limited budget for it. I think game play needs more diversity and the focus of all future developments is on FUN not grind. Some kind of ongoing fleet tournament would be nice. Rewards could even be starbase or holdings experience points to allow for immediate upgrades. I support the devs, they are trying to do things right and look forward to the future.
This is a fun game, a fun game with lots of potential that is still in development.
Aye, I hear and agree with you.
Every time they big up the hype surrounding a new update, the following fallout from the mountain of bugs makes me dread the future updates, rather than look forward too them.
Bugs are another problem that's making it difficult for me to log in. Specifically the little ones like cosmetic issues. I can't match colors on some of my Romulan outfits because the pallets are wonky and sometimes get shared with other costume pieces. I'm also peeved that I spent dilithium on a weapon that shoots from the floor under my character and not from the weapon itself.
They're annoying little gnats of bugs, but they add up. Big bugs don't bother me as much since they tend to get squashed with each update, but that's part of the problem: Cryptic keeps chasing the big-picture bugs while all the little ones linger--in some cases for years.
On one hand i love the size and openness of games like this. I also love the fact that is is continously evolving and expanding (well more or less), compared to a singleplayer game. As a player i love NOT to be the center of attention, like in a singleplayer game.
(It is almost like a second identity.)
I love the huge amount of customization (ships AND character) and long therm goals/motivation in STO or other MMOs.
No singleplayer game comes even close to this.
On the other hand i deeply hate the (subliminal forced) socialization in todays Singleplayergames and MMOs in general. When i play a game i just want to focus on the game and not on people talking about politics/religion or what they think of "funny" stuff or other things that don't belong to that game.
When i want to meet people i go out and meet some real friends in person, i don't need or want 100000 Facebook/MMO "friends".
So in the end it is a real love/hate relation i have with todays games.
The grind? I don't mind the grind because I save the newly "grinded gear" for my next character to use, so I can level him faster and experience another game aspect. I'd like to see one ( and only one) set of reputation grade space and ground gear that can be made/chosen account rather than character bound though; but the harder and better something is to get, the more fun it is too have. It's interesting and fun to "grind" using different ships/builds to see which works best. So far, each has its own advantage and disadvantage and it's fun to see hich build works best overall, I don't specialize, I generalize.
I will commit STO heresy here by saying, without shame, that I like PUGS!. Sometimes you get good teams and sometimes bad and it's a challnge to figure out quickly which it is and try to exert some leadership to improve the less experienced players so as to avoid a total "PUG Wipeout" (15-0 PUGS are a "fail". anything less is a win depending on the level of the opposing team. To me, 14-1 against an extremely well coordinated, extremely well equipped team is just as satisfying a win as a 0-15 win against a group of disorganized inexperienced players). There is one group of Germans, in a fleet, that is so good that if I can get a 13-2 loss I may throw myself a party.
The gear and dilithium and star base tiers SHOULD BE hard to get and take forever to get! That's the whole point! Was it Thomas Paine who said "That which we achieve too easily, we esteem to lightly".
What's the point of "grinding for gear?" It depends. For me, winning, in one way or another in PVP and making it through a difficult PVE solo without being blown-up even once is the goal and satisfying.
Let me summarize the majority of the forum POSTs to save people time:
1. The game is great; The game stinks.
2. The visuls are great; The visuals stink.
3. They finally fixed the "x" bug; They never fix anything.
4. I upgraded to "gold"; I canceled my subsciption.
5.LOR is great: LOR stinks/ was disappointing.
6. I finally broke down and spent zen on "x" and am glad; The C-store is a rip-off and I hate them.
7. That's a good ship build; Your build stinks.
8. I love this game; I quit.
The game is what you make it. I like it. Please post your words of agreement, disagreement and ad hominum attacks, but please, no profanity. It's tedious. I doubt there is a swear word I haven't heard and I don't want to "grind" a dictionary to look one up if I haven't. See you at my next warp core explosion, hopefully I will be warping away from yours, not you from mine.
To answer your question: I play because I like space sims, and I like thinking about multiplayer game design and theory. ST isnt really a space sim but its got some interesting game mechanics and I am still exploring some of the elements.
Still waiting on them to fix the Season 7 MACO bug.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
LOL
Now, if you're looking for deep, thoughtful exploration of the human experience, my best suggestion is to pick up a good book. This is, after all, just a game...
Why would anyone need anything more from a game?
I gave up with LOTR - it doesnt feel like anything to do with LOTR in atmosphere - in fact it resembles every other fantasy MMO but worse..
Tried SWTOR .. I think they really missed the boat with this one.. The old republic setting doesnt work for me -surely the point of setting a game within a licenced product is to play with that setting and invoke its atmosphere; but setting it before the events of the films (in fact way way way before) just makes it another MMO with SW. Quite like the way the story elements are handled though..
I think in a fashion this is where STO actually gets it right.. There are tips of the hat to items, characters and settings from the films and the TV episodes.(If only it had more voice acting sections)
So I prefer STO for its atmosphere, however like every other MMO it still has all the faults that seem to be the Norm now.. Namely the grind end game and no real direction..
I could not care less. It's still a bad game.
ADDED: The word from "on high" is that there are plans to revamp the Fed story line to be more compelling and absorbing. It also helps to realize that STO, like most MMORPG's, is very much a "work-in-progress" so you never know what the future will bring.
And it's nice to be able to play as female for a change, so few games allow for such a thing, and even nicer to actually be able to clothe female characters unlike most MMO's where the developers seem to think that chain mail bikini's are the most clothing that a female ever needs.
I play STO because it's Star Trek. I love Star Trek. I literally grew up with TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise, and this game lets me "live" inside Star Trek.
That's all I need.
I have a lifetime account.
It's just that simple. I've actually stopped playing my other MMO (The Old Republic) I canned the first since it was like STO, but without the lifetime benefits of 500 points a month and 'normal' access to the game, without having to pay for daft things like titles, and normal equipment useage!
Back to the subject. I'm one of those rare one character-only players. (Everyone complains about the grind, yet they're willing to do it umpteen times with different characters?REDUNDANT anyone? Aye, you are.) I just log in here for an hour or so a day with my character. I do some grinds for fleet marks and the new faction one, then log off. It's just a mechanical aspect to the game, that's keeping me here. In fact, I don't even consider this Star Trek anymore. It's just...some neatly drawn sci-fi game with space ships, with Captains that have to do everything (are they control freaks? That's a bad captain who does everyone's job on a starship.) And a character that simply shoots things and ignores what the word 'Uniform' means anymore.
I'll just say what I've said for last few years. I really did wish the vapour-ware that was the original concept for this game (ie: Perpetual's screenshots and writing) was the actual gameplay. Everyone feeling like they had a part to play on a starship, working together. Solving problems that didn't always require a phaser and all your red shirts. Something that the players could make last, with their own interactions, as well as the base game elements. (You know what had a better crew, interior? Mass Effect. Just think of the Normandy and you'll think of Joker, laughing it up, till his bones literally crack. Garrus, always 'calibrating something'. That kind of thing. The little character details that added up in the game, and the interactions going on. Granted you were the leader...but imagine just playing that game without the crew and the personalities? Would you still have loved it so and being inside your ship? It's a shame that, Mass Effect 2 for example, had a deeper system for planetary sensors/probes...wait the fact they even had it, and this game doesn't! No exploration! That could have been just one aspect of a science officers duty on a ship. And I mean a real science officer. Not these three 'classes'.)
If I knew how to make a game...I would. But I can't. So to be fair, I'll play this one. But if I could snap my fingers and make 'my vision', well it'd be different from this.
Our characters would have started at the Academy, during our final days there, and picking our field out of more than three options (Command, Science, Medical, Operations, Engineering, Security, Tactical, Navigation, etc). Maybe even be given the Kobayashi Maru-like sim, where there is no right/wrong answer...only facing that life and death situation. That's the best place to learn the ropes, and it gives the place meaning, to start.
After that, everyone would start out as a fresh-faced Ensign inside a ship. Where it goes could be player-made (like a foundry?) or part of the game's randomized travels. Players would then have to earn their ranks, and let's face it...some of you should NOT even be considered to be a Captain, in the first place. Maybe you're the Scotty of the game, or the Dr. McCoy? What matters is your character and interactions, not your rank. Somehow I'd make that the main element of the gameplay. Your character (when logged in), doing things to help the ship the crew and the mission. And of course I would have went with some of those mini-games, like diagnostic repairs, using the astrometrics lab for a system survey...allocating the allotted power for each department, ship equipment at Ops. Flying at the helm. Whatever. And of course you'd have to have reviews of your personal file. Did you earn any commendations? Are you recommended for a promotion, or a position? Did you be a complete TRIBBLE and get yourself court-martialed, because you forgot you were in Starfleet, and not the Klingon Defence Force? (As a way to remove troublesome players who don't fit in.) All of that scored and kept track of by the game and your actions of course.
Maybe there would be a grind of sorts...but it would be a living, breathing starship. And in turn, those starships and crews could go on in actual task forces and fleets to do things. (Imagine four starships, with say 10 players each on average, attempting a patrol or first contact mission in their sector?) That could play out any number of ways...and take any amount of time...for just that! Random events could enter into play, on the ship. Those good old holodeck malfunctions? Check. Some unknown life form attempting communication, or help? Or maybe they're dissecting the crew? Check. Investigate. Play. Be part of a team. Solve problems. That's what I miss about Star Trek and TNG.
Don't even get me started on the ships themselves. Get rid of the three 'classes' again. Ships are defined into scouts, frigates, destroyers, cruisers, battlecruisers, battleships, dreadnaughts, etc (no matter if they have more weapons, vs advanced sensors, or a larger crew than normal). There would be more equipment of course. (After all, sickbays are ALWAYS equipped with biobeds. You have to have inertia dampning, or you're all going to be chunky salsa when you go to impulse, let alone warp. EPS conduits are standard. What happened to the neural bio-gel pack relays? Did they get an upgrade, like the old Isolinier chips were to that? Who's maintaining the computer system?
Upgrades, refits, repairs would occasionally mean a trip back to a Starbase, drydock. Heaps of time to go back to the home systems and check-in. Take some shore leave?
I'd give up a lifetime sub, just to get some of this.
Alright, this was a wall of text. Apologies. Went everywhere but to the point eh. Again: I'm just logging in to be a solo bot for a time, then going back to single-player games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Fallout, and Baulder's Gate. STO just...well, it's like going to work for an hour, than taking the day off. I really wouldn't make a fuss if it went under and we all got sacked from it. But I'm still playing along. We're all still playing, who post here, eh. Just be honest to yourself, and your reasons for logging on. That's all we can hope for.
You know I liked so much of your post, I think the prevailing frustration is in what the game could be instead of a dps/kill fest.
Your quote struck me that I have wondered if I would be all that upset if/when sto servers go offline. I am pretty sure I would be ok too. I have a LTS as well and without it I would have left a long time ago, i don't really feel like renting games.
In the end I enjoy star trek stuff and my friends, but if they changed games I would too.
- I get to fly around in an end-game Akira-class and kick total TRIBBLE.
- No matter how many times I see it happen, watching a Borg Cube blow up never gets old.
- I get to hear the voice of Denise Crosby.
- my Gorn has this signature finishing move, where he bites you in the neck and walks away as you bleed to death. I love doing that.
- I want to be James T. Kirk when I grow up.
- My fleet's a pretty cool bunch of people.
- And there's a whole galaxy out there to explore. I wanna see it all.
...Oh, baby, you know, I've really got to leave you / Oh, I can hear it callin 'me / I said don't you hear it callin' me the way it used to do?...
- Anne Bredon