I've just had another idea. Leave the escorts' DPS alone and more closely tie their defence to their speed. If they move at top speed they should have full defence. As soon as they slow down their defence should drop DRASTICALLY. More harshly than other ships.
Why would this be a good idea? It would stop yo-yo strategies. As soon as the escort slowed for yo-yo its defence would drop to the point where it would be an easy kill. This would make escorts more resemble the Defiant during its battles with the dominion; hard to hit and agile but with a very nasty forward-facing sting. In fact, their shields should be reduced and their defence raised. After all, there's no way that the Defiant should have shields anywhere near the capabilities of the larger ships. Their method of survival should be avoidance, not tanking.
Add the idea of beams having effects to your enemy over time and we may see escorts with beams on the back. Again, like the Defiant.
As an aside, I've read a number of threads regarding balance before and in them I've noticed a trend; on the whole those who identify as escort pilots believe that the game is fine the way it is and science and cruiser pilots believe balance is required.
What does this mean? Well, my conclusion is that escort pilots are more than prepared to have their enjoyment at the expense of others. Not a very Trek mentality.
As an aside, I've read a number of threads regarding balance before and in them I've noticed a trend; on the whole those who identify as escort pilots believe that the game is fine the way it is and science and cruiser pilots believe balance is required.
What does this mean? Well, my conclusion is that escort pilots are more than prepared to have their enjoyment at the expense of others. Not a very Trek mentality.
Nice strawman. Not accurate, though.
My experience, as an escort pilot even, is that most escort pilots know there's a problem with the other ship/class types. Specifically, the potency of their class abilities.
Eng and Sci have some great healing abilities, so much so that a Defiant can weather a lot of punishment with just a Lt. Eng and Lt. Sci. At the same time, Cruisers and Science vessels really should be running Tac Team to get the most out of their own healing abilities, which basically puts their own Eng and Sci Teams off the table. This chains a lot of builds.
One solution would be to tone down the healing from Eng and Sci teams, and add in the shield redistribution to both of those. That way, they can get the most out of their Tac slots by buffing their attacks instead of their survivability.
That's just one change, but I think it would really free up Cruiser and Science vessel builds, as well as make them more durable against Escorts as everybody wants by giving them heals basically every 15s.
First problematic premise with this thread: That LoR "introduced" the idea of an alpha strike from cloak. Guess who's always been able to do that? I'll give you a hint - it starts with a "K-", and ends with a "-lingons". Heck, Defiants have been able to do that for practically the entire life of the game, too, so it's not like this is even a totally new issue for FvF PvP.
Second problematic premise with this thread: That Alphas from cloak are some sort of unbeatable trump card. There are a few PvPers who specialize in "one-shotting" from cloak, but even then, it's hard to pull off and can be stopped with quick reflexes and good decisions. If you regularly get beat in PvP by this tactic, you need to make an adjustment to your gear, your power selection, your reactions to attack, or all three.
Third problematic premise with this thread: Escorts do universally more damage than cruisers. The truth is, depending on build, a cruiser built to push weapon power and use FaW can actually do more overall damage in a target-rich environment like an STF or a Fleet Action. Those builds do sacrifice some team healing ability, but they can still tank as well or better than any escort, certainly well enough to manage any PvE content in the game.
Fourth problematic premise with this thread: Nerfing escorts will improve the game for cruisers. The fact is that if you don't like how cruisers play now on their own merits, no amount of nerfing escorts will make you enjoy them more. Cruisers will still be relatively slow. They will still do the same amount of damage. They will still be focused on tanking and supporting others. In other words, making escorts worse at their job doesn't change the role of the cruiser at all, and if that role isn't fun for you, DON'T PLAY A CRUISER.
Fifth problematic premise with this thread: Escorts can do anything a cruiser can do. Truth is, no Escort can run (say) Extend shields III, nor can any escort cycle as many hull heals and power buffs as a cruiser can. People often complain that escorts can tank "anything", when in fact much of the time the reason the escort can do that is because of timely team heals. True, those heals don't HAVE to come from a cruiser, but certainly it's a role cruisers excel in, even if there are relatively few players who aim to play a really excellent support character.
Moral of the story: "Escorts Online" is more about forum raging, and less about how the game really plays.
Good post. And good points to think about.
It seems to me, though, that most of the griping about escorts comes from the PvP crowd. However, I don't do PvP.
Eighty percent of the time, I'm jockeying cruisers. And successful at it in STFs, PvE, and general play/story missions.
I've seen science vessels do well in those venues.
So, I don't complain about a given category of vessel being "game breaking". When taking on an annoying enemy in STFs or fleet actions, I'm glad to see an escort or two show up to the party. There's plenty of targets to go around for everybody.
And the primary issue is simple - beams do not do enough damage, and there is no good single-target buff for them, i.e. no 'beam rapid fire'.
The theory that greater firing arc is worth reduced damage completely failed when escorts became so fast and maneuverable that they no longer have a problem keeping targets in arc.
Don't nerf escorts - buff beam arrays a LOT.
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And the primary issue is simple - beams do not do enough damage, and there is no good single-target buff for them, i.e. no 'beam rapid fire'.
The theory that greater firing arc is worth reduced damage completely failed when escorts became so fast and maneuverable that they no longer have a problem keeping targets in arc.
Beam overload is not a rapid fire attack. It's a single shot attack that can miss. At a HUGE energy cost, more than the energy cost of 10 seconds of rapid firing cannons. BFAW and CRF may have some misses but you usually have some hits. Like naevius said, though, BFAW is not a single target attack.
Yeah, BO is an attack that is a special case, because it costs you a ton of weapon power. It is most definitely not the equivalent of CRF.
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Beam overload is not a rapid fire attack. It's a single shot attack that can miss. At a HUGE energy cost, more than the energy cost of 10 seconds of rapid firing cannons. BFAW and CRF may have some misses but you usually have some hits. Like naevius said, though, BFAW is not a single target attack.
not only that is only good ones every 30 secs unless you stack then its good only every 15 secs but to me its pointless to do so
I have a tac escort that can tank moderately well, and do some amazing burst damage and pretty impressive sustained damaged.
I have a eng cruiser that is a rock with lasers. It needs most of the Hive Onslaught to take it down, can single target burst damage quite well and high area DPS. Numbers are usually 20-25% lower than the escort on average.
I had a sci sci, gave up, now a sci destroyer.
Now tell me whats broken? Stop your campaigning.
Not knowing how to play properly isn't an excuse to nerf anything.
Complaining that one ship configuration isn't useful in a broken PvP environment is also not fit for general discussion.
Beam overload is not a rapid fire attack. It's a single shot attack that can miss. At a HUGE energy cost, more than the energy cost of 10 seconds of rapid firing cannons. BFAW and CRF may have some misses but you usually have some hits. Like naevius said, though, BFAW is not a single target attack.
Honestly these objections feel like nitpicking. Yes, BO and BFAW are different from C:RF and C:SV. That does not mean that Beam Overload doesn't fill the role you are looking for, nor does it mean we need even more beam powers than we already have. They perform the same general roles, and BFAW in particular is very flexible. Depending on the situation, it can be a single target damage buff (if there is only a single target in range, like most STF boss fights), a multi-target spam clear (Like when fighting a carrier or minelayer in pvp), or multi-target aggro grabber for cruisers who want to tank. Oh, and it also helps pad your DPS score in Fleet actions. And it's available at ensign, unlike any cannon power.
So, yeah, if Beams are getting a direct port of Cannon:Rapid Fire, can cannons get, say, an ensign level power that mimics FAW or Beam Overload? Or how about getting some target subsystem abilities for cannons, can we do that at least? I promise, there are many, many Defiant captains that would kill to have any ensign level cannon buff. They won't get one, though, because part of the balance between the weapon types is that cannons get less available and less flexible buffs than beams.
I have a tac escort that can tank moderately well, and do some amazing burst damage and pretty impressive sustained damaged.
I have a eng cruiser that is a rock with lasers. It needs most of the Hive Onslaught to take it down, can single target burst damage quite well and high area DPS. Numbers are usually 20-25% lower than the escort on average.
I had a sci sci, gave up, now a sci destroyer.
Now tell me whats broken? Stop your campaigning.
Not knowing how to play properly isn't an excuse to nerf anything.
Complaining that one ship configuration isn't useful in a broken PvP environment is also not fit for general discussion.
STFs require things to be destroyed in a set period of time. Tanking won't get you the optional extras. Which class can do that better AND tank against PvE enemies?
PvP is geared towards escorts that can lay down withering fire and not be made of paper.
It seems to me, though, that most of the griping about escorts comes from the PvP crowd. However, I don't do PvP.
Except that currently scis in sci vesels/sci carriers are the currently most important players in PvP. Without them an escort can rarely do enough dps to bring even other escorts down. Assuming equal competence the side with more scis usually wins.
Honestly these objections feel like nitpicking. Yes, BO and BFAW are different from C:RF and C:SV. That does not mean that Beam Overload doesn't fill the role you are looking for...
This shows a mis-understanding. BO basically bundles up damage to give you a spike, but if you use it repeatedly it doesn't do much for your overall damage. In PvE, where enemies have huge hit point pools, BO doesn't help you. And it only helps you in PvP if it is part of an alpha strike that can overwhelm an enemy in one volley. BO from a cruiser is laughable in PvP.
So, short of making cruisers just like escorts, they need more damage over time, so beams need to be buffed, and cruisers need buffs to beams that are engineer boff abilities, like DEM is.
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Not entirely true, but for those optionals that do, that's a design flaw in the STFs then, not escorts.
True that cruisers tanking doesn't help towards getting the optionals in STFs, but it's also a design flaw in the game that results in escorts being able to tank cubes in STFs.
What they should have done (Or still should do) is made stuff class specific. From ships, to weapons, to gear, ect. While I understand this may step on some toes, it's how every MMO balances its game between classes. How this was lost in development of this game or over time is sad.
The other problem is how they made a lot of PVE timer based, which makes DPS king. Instead of having it where certain classes are needed for success they made it to where as long as you dish out enough DPS you'll be fine in the end. This makes it to where Engineers and Science are considered "weak" in PVE unless they completely go another way of how they should play their class. (PVP is a whole other beast when it comes to balancing)
I personally think if they were really serious about making this game more balanced and giving classes their own roles in PVE and PVP, that's the two places they need to start. I know it's controversial, because of what people have either bought or earned already in this game. However cryptic should step on toes if they wish to fix this issue, then worry about the fallout later instead of trying to please everyone all the time.
Evacuation
A vast number of colonists must be beamed up and transfered to rescue ships some distance away
Each ship can beam up a number equal to its Crew size (life support)
reward is based on total number rescued by all team members / number of players who actively beamed someone up
Assimilator HELL
The interdicted planet is surrounded by countless turrets and assimilators and large minefields
These must all be cleared before the mission can proceed
"Renegade"
The commander of a Defiant class prototype has gone renegade
this ship (cloaked) must be found and taken INTACT within the time limit
precise control of damage delivered is required
The Shield
An unusual shield has been raised over the planet
it causes feed back damage Equal to any inflicted upon it on the attacking ship (bypassing shields )
but it MUST come down
Comments
its that simple
if it doesn't something is wrong somewhere
normally the cruiser jock has forgotten that he is supposed to be a warship
What? ESCORTS ONLINE. Sue me.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
I'll remind you of that next time CEE has it's Re-crystalise 2% Dmg stacked 150 times and someone asks for Tachyon Beam to debuff it.
Ya'know, a science power
I have seen some epic cruiser and science ship captains.
I will agree on one thing, that science ships have been nerfed by way of their available powers.
thats what i toild my little brother
i told him to fly a frieghter and i took a Jem Hader escort
and blew him to bits everytime
when he cried i showed him your quote
Lol
Awww, and I bet putting those big boy pants on this morning felt sooo good. :rolleyes:
Why would this be a good idea? It would stop yo-yo strategies. As soon as the escort slowed for yo-yo its defence would drop to the point where it would be an easy kill. This would make escorts more resemble the Defiant during its battles with the dominion; hard to hit and agile but with a very nasty forward-facing sting. In fact, their shields should be reduced and their defence raised. After all, there's no way that the Defiant should have shields anywhere near the capabilities of the larger ships. Their method of survival should be avoidance, not tanking.
Add the idea of beams having effects to your enemy over time and we may see escorts with beams on the back. Again, like the Defiant.
As an aside, I've read a number of threads regarding balance before and in them I've noticed a trend; on the whole those who identify as escort pilots believe that the game is fine the way it is and science and cruiser pilots believe balance is required.
What does this mean? Well, my conclusion is that escort pilots are more than prepared to have their enjoyment at the expense of others. Not a very Trek mentality.
Nice strawman. Not accurate, though.
My experience, as an escort pilot even, is that most escort pilots know there's a problem with the other ship/class types. Specifically, the potency of their class abilities.
Eng and Sci have some great healing abilities, so much so that a Defiant can weather a lot of punishment with just a Lt. Eng and Lt. Sci. At the same time, Cruisers and Science vessels really should be running Tac Team to get the most out of their own healing abilities, which basically puts their own Eng and Sci Teams off the table. This chains a lot of builds.
One solution would be to tone down the healing from Eng and Sci teams, and add in the shield redistribution to both of those. That way, they can get the most out of their Tac slots by buffing their attacks instead of their survivability.
That's just one change, but I think it would really free up Cruiser and Science vessel builds, as well as make them more durable against Escorts as everybody wants by giving them heals basically every 15s.
Good post. And good points to think about.
It seems to me, though, that most of the griping about escorts comes from the PvP crowd. However, I don't do PvP.
Eighty percent of the time, I'm jockeying cruisers. And successful at it in STFs, PvE, and general play/story missions.
I've seen science vessels do well in those venues.
So, I don't complain about a given category of vessel being "game breaking". When taking on an annoying enemy in STFs or fleet actions, I'm glad to see an escort or two show up to the party. There's plenty of targets to go around for everybody.
And the primary issue is simple - beams do not do enough damage, and there is no good single-target buff for them, i.e. no 'beam rapid fire'.
The theory that greater firing arc is worth reduced damage completely failed when escorts became so fast and maneuverable that they no longer have a problem keeping targets in arc.
Don't nerf escorts - buff beam arrays a LOT.
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they should shoot and run, not be able to endure a sustained fight against a cruiser
that is just stupid
just droip their defense to like a bird of prey or somethng
No escort should be able to cloak for 10 seconds after firing cannons
ALL federation escorts should come prefitted with weapons that can NOT be changed
(ie the defiant gets a beam array mounted aft)
indeed fed ships should all be set to limited customisation because the federation mass produces uniform ships
http://sto.gamepedia.com/Beam_Overload
Beam overload is not a rapid fire attack. It's a single shot attack that can miss. At a HUGE energy cost, more than the energy cost of 10 seconds of rapid firing cannons. BFAW and CRF may have some misses but you usually have some hits. Like naevius said, though, BFAW is not a single target attack.
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not only that is only good ones every 30 secs unless you stack then its good only every 15 secs but to me its pointless to do so
system Lord Baal is dead
Yeah, that's right.
I have a eng cruiser that is a rock with lasers. It needs most of the Hive Onslaught to take it down, can single target burst damage quite well and high area DPS. Numbers are usually 20-25% lower than the escort on average.
I had a sci sci, gave up, now a sci destroyer.
Now tell me whats broken? Stop your campaigning.
Not knowing how to play properly isn't an excuse to nerf anything.
Complaining that one ship configuration isn't useful in a broken PvP environment is also not fit for general discussion.
Completed Starbase, Embassy, Mine, Spire and No Win Scenario
Nothing to do anymore.
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Visit our Youtube channel
Honestly these objections feel like nitpicking. Yes, BO and BFAW are different from C:RF and C:SV. That does not mean that Beam Overload doesn't fill the role you are looking for, nor does it mean we need even more beam powers than we already have. They perform the same general roles, and BFAW in particular is very flexible. Depending on the situation, it can be a single target damage buff (if there is only a single target in range, like most STF boss fights), a multi-target spam clear (Like when fighting a carrier or minelayer in pvp), or multi-target aggro grabber for cruisers who want to tank. Oh, and it also helps pad your DPS score in Fleet actions. And it's available at ensign, unlike any cannon power.
So, yeah, if Beams are getting a direct port of Cannon:Rapid Fire, can cannons get, say, an ensign level power that mimics FAW or Beam Overload? Or how about getting some target subsystem abilities for cannons, can we do that at least? I promise, there are many, many Defiant captains that would kill to have any ensign level cannon buff. They won't get one, though, because part of the balance between the weapon types is that cannons get less available and less flexible buffs than beams.
Too true. That or they like to sit at just under max range and plink away at targets until they die and wonder why its not always effective.
STFs require things to be destroyed in a set period of time. Tanking won't get you the optional extras. Which class can do that better AND tank against PvE enemies?
PvP is geared towards escorts that can lay down withering fire and not be made of paper.
What's broken? Hmm. I wonder what...
Except that currently scis in sci vesels/sci carriers are the currently most important players in PvP. Without them an escort can rarely do enough dps to bring even other escorts down. Assuming equal competence the side with more scis usually wins.
premades use 3 healers (sci if possible ) and 2 escorts for spike damage.Escorts are garbage without support in pvp.
This shows a mis-understanding. BO basically bundles up damage to give you a spike, but if you use it repeatedly it doesn't do much for your overall damage. In PvE, where enemies have huge hit point pools, BO doesn't help you. And it only helps you in PvP if it is part of an alpha strike that can overwhelm an enemy in one volley. BO from a cruiser is laughable in PvP.
So, short of making cruisers just like escorts, they need more damage over time, so beams need to be buffed, and cruisers need buffs to beams that are engineer boff abilities, like DEM is.
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
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True that cruisers tanking doesn't help towards getting the optionals in STFs, but it's also a design flaw in the game that results in escorts being able to tank cubes in STFs.
The other problem is how they made a lot of PVE timer based, which makes DPS king. Instead of having it where certain classes are needed for success they made it to where as long as you dish out enough DPS you'll be fine in the end. This makes it to where Engineers and Science are considered "weak" in PVE unless they completely go another way of how they should play their class. (PVP is a whole other beast when it comes to balancing)
I personally think if they were really serious about making this game more balanced and giving classes their own roles in PVE and PVP, that's the two places they need to start. I know it's controversial, because of what people have either bought or earned already in this game. However cryptic should step on toes if they wish to fix this issue, then worry about the fallout later instead of trying to please everyone all the time.
We add some new missions (NOT BORG)
Evacuation
A vast number of colonists must be beamed up and transfered to rescue ships some distance away
Each ship can beam up a number equal to its Crew size (life support)
reward is based on total number rescued by all team members / number of players who actively beamed someone up
Assimilator HELL
The interdicted planet is surrounded by countless turrets and assimilators and large minefields
These must all be cleared before the mission can proceed
"Renegade"
The commander of a Defiant class prototype has gone renegade
this ship (cloaked) must be found and taken INTACT within the time limit
precise control of damage delivered is required
The Shield
An unusual shield has been raised over the planet
it causes feed back damage Equal to any inflicted upon it on the attacking ship (bypassing shields )
but it MUST come down