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darramouss1
Member Posts: 1,811 Arc User
Title says it all. It was bad enough before, but now with LoR, you can add withering cloak alpha attacks to the escorts' already near-infinite inventory of ways to kill people.
Cryptic, you really need to address this problem. It's now getting beyond a joke. You've made it so that of the ships shown in the series only the Defiant is a real contender for an effective PvP ship. This spits in the face of what Star Trek is meant to be.
Whilst you're fixing the balance, do something about the JHAS. It's not a little OP, it's waaaaay OP. As evidenced by the sheer number of serious PvPers who use it.
(I know I'm wasting my breath with this post, but it really needs to be said and said and said again until Cryptic listens.)
Cryptic, you really need to address this problem. It's now getting beyond a joke. You've made it so that of the ships shown in the series only the Defiant is a real contender for an effective PvP ship. This spits in the face of what Star Trek is meant to be.
Whilst you're fixing the balance, do something about the JHAS. It's not a little OP, it's waaaaay OP. As evidenced by the sheer number of serious PvPers who use it.
(I know I'm wasting my breath with this post, but it really needs to be said and said and said again until Cryptic listens.)
Post edited by darramouss1 on
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It's pretty much this hard to keep just one timeline intact. ♪
running some parsing, it seems carrier pets do almost as much if not more dps then the average casual player.
this means you can do the same dps as 2 people if you are geared right.
im to the point now where every char i have flys a carrier.. its not worth not having one.
[12:44] Vessel One of Two Unimatrix 01 deals 1019527 (1157678) Kinetic Damage to you with Plasma Energy Bolt Explosion.
I'm sorry, but that's a weak way to do things. I very weak way with a side serve of weak with plenty of weak sauce on top. It should be the goal of ALL game developers to make their games better, even if some people aren't happy.
Funny how it was OK to nerf sci powers, though...
You would think that people would get sick of flying the same thing over and over and over yet I see it quite often. Certain players who are on every day fly the JHAS religiously. Me, I have 9 toons with a few different ships on each toon. If I flew the one ship non-stop I would have quit the game loooong ago.
Carriers also have a few defensive advantages by the way of flying targets that go buzzing about all overt he lace taking hits for the mothership as well as outright intercepting heavy torps.
As far as it being escorts online... my engi cruiser kills escorts in PvP, I don't see a problem. Its not easy and you have to play very aggressively, but you can hardly expect players to sit there and let you whittle them down while staying at just under max range with all your power to shields can you?
Let escorts have huge damage outputs or reasonable tanking capability but not both. Why should one class get everything?
I thought the new cores were meant to do that.
Beams shouldn't be weaker than cannons just another method of damage delivery...
Yes, ideal world and all that.
Second problematic premise with this thread: That Alphas from cloak are some sort of unbeatable trump card. There are a few PvPers who specialize in "one-shotting" from cloak, but even then, it's hard to pull off and can be stopped with quick reflexes and good decisions. If you regularly get beat in PvP by this tactic, you need to make an adjustment to your gear, your power selection, your reactions to attack, or all three.
Third problematic premise with this thread: Escorts do universally more damage than cruisers. The truth is, depending on build, a cruiser built to push weapon power and use FaW can actually do more overall damage in a target-rich environment like an STF or a Fleet Action. Those builds do sacrifice some team healing ability, but they can still tank as well or better than any escort, certainly well enough to manage any PvE content in the game.
Fourth problematic premise with this thread: Nerfing escorts will improve the game for cruisers. The fact is that if you don't like how cruisers play now on their own merits, no amount of nerfing escorts will make you enjoy them more. Cruisers will still be relatively slow. They will still do the same amount of damage. They will still be focused on tanking and supporting others. In other words, making escorts worse at their job doesn't change the role of the cruiser at all, and if that role isn't fun for you, DON'T PLAY A CRUISER.
Fifth problematic premise with this thread: Escorts can do anything a cruiser can do. Truth is, no Escort can run (say) Extend shields III, nor can any escort cycle as many hull heals and power buffs as a cruiser can. People often complain that escorts can tank "anything", when in fact much of the time the reason the escort can do that is because of timely team heals. True, those heals don't HAVE to come from a cruiser, but certainly it's a role cruisers excel in, even if there are relatively few players who aim to play a really excellent support character.
Moral of the story: "Escorts Online" is more about forum raging, and less about how the game really plays.
But the Summer Event ship is a Risian Corvette...it's going to be Corvettes Online.
But you just complained that the Defiant is the only viable pvp ship from canon! And now you want to nerf the other one??
Make up your mind, man!
Which could even the playing field as it would make beam arrays competitive but still different enough from cannons.
I should have been clearer. Out of the main ships that appear in the show, the Enterprise, the Voyager and the Defiant, the Defiant class is the one main ship that performs better in PvP.
Aside from this, the JHAS is better than every other escort by a fair margin.
I's true that BFAW can do more damage than a ship with cannons, but that damage is never focused at a single target unless that target is the only ship in range. If you are an escort and the only ship in range, you have the capability to get to the rear of the ship where the BFAW effectiveness is halved. Sometimes less than half as a lot of people put a cutting beam on the rear.
I don't think that cannons shouls hit as hard as cannons, but cannons shouldn't do such high magnitudes of damage more than beams. Also, beam damage shouldn't drop off as much as it does.
Just my opinions and I'm sure that many people disagree but the beauty of forums is that we can discuss opposing views and share ideas.
Senator Vreenak (one of my fave characters, BTW) this is an EXCELLENT idea!!! If this idea was implemented correctly there would be no nerfs required to achieve balance.
Even setting up a Fleet Assault Cruiser with a canon build using only phaser beams and quantum torpedos I can still get pretty decent dps, and almost always win SB24 with FAW spam and aux2bat.
My eng in Fleet Voquv can also do good dps using BOP refits, and will be even better once I get elite pets soon, it has no problem soloing cubes while guarding probes or killing most targets I run into in pvp, and is nearly unkillable unless heavily focused on and subnucced.
So as long as you set your ship up for dps whether by going the simple DHC route, or using aux2bat/FAW spam, or use pets you are good for most of this games content.
Unfortunatley sci ships and cruisers only set up to support and not do any dps are not useful outside of pvp and no win scenario.
Indeed. I guess my engi cruiser that tanks and does DPS (less DPS than an escort but a lot tankier) is just not meant to exist at all.
Go figure!
You and others need to realize ships exist on a set of sliding scales, at one end you have low DPS potential but super tanky, on the other you have super DPS and low tanking. Once you know in which point of the scale you want to be at all you have left to do is pick which of the ships sitting at that point in DPS/Tankyness you want to get.
It really IS that simple. Unfortunately what most people complaining REALLY want is to sit at the extreme tanky side of the scale and do way more damage than a ship at that extreme end of the scale should do. If you want to play cruiser that can do significant DPS, you can. It just won't be as tanky as a Galaxy.
Pretty sure he was saying the same thing...just coming from the angle for the Escort rather than the Cruiser. He wasn't complaining about boosting Cruiser DPS...he was complaining about the need to nerf Escort Tank.
Escort: ++DPS
Cruiser: ++Tank
Sci Vessel: +DPS/+Tank
Tac: ++DPS
Eng: ++Tank
Sci: +DPS/+Tank
DPSiest:
(4 DPS) Escort + Tac
(3 DPS) Escort + Sci or Sci Vessel + Tac
(2 DPS) Escort + Eng or Sci Vessel + Sci or Cruiser + Tac
(1 DPS) Cruiser + Sci
(0 DPS) Cruiser + Eng
Tankiest:
(4 Tank) Cruiser + Eng
(3 Tank) Cruiser + Sci or Sci Vessel + Eng
(2 Tank) Cruiser + Tac or Sci Vessel + Sci or Escort + Eng
(1 Tank) Escort + Sci
(0 Tank) Escort + Tac
Let's look at that 2's, eh?
(2 DPS/2 Tank)
Escort + Eng
Cruiser + Tac
Sci Vessel + Sci
The "balanced" middle...and if STO were more like that, there would likely be less complaints, eh? There might be new complaints and there still would be old complaints, but many of the complaints we see couldn't stand anymore...
...unfortunately, what's happened has been the following:
Boost DPS...benefits the Escort and Tac most, because of no diminishing returns.
Boost Tank...because of diminishing returns, benefits the least Tanky Ships and Careers most.
Tada...Cruiser Rage, Eng Rage, Cruiser+Eng Rage Galore...
...oh well.
And that's exactly where most people get it wrong. The boost to tanking has come from improvements to shield resistance and regen, not hull. It benefits all classes equally. What this allows cruiser to do is twofold.
First, it allows one to build a superlative tank so its possible to run all PvE as a zombie tank. Not terribly fun but VERY easy. Some people like that.
Second, it allows for a cruiser to shift resources to offences, more than it'd be able to without the tanky boosts. Its why you can tank with an Aux2Batt build regardless of the loss of aux power while having the equivalent of 8 boff powers in a Fleet AC, two of which are Lt. CMDR level!
Beyond that, surely it has escaped no one's notice that a lot of the rep set are specifically set to boost cruiser and even sci vessel DPS? Is there any serious cruiser pilot that doesn't want the Tholian rep console or the no power using Beam Array?
The boost to tanking has come in many flavors.
Yes, there have been the additions to Shield Tanking. Whether one is talking Enhanced Shield Systems, Emergency Secondary Shielding, Superior Shield Repair, or partially from Auxiliary Power Config - Defense with Reputation...the addition of Elite Fleet Shields or even the Embassy Science Consoles providing higher Shield Regen or Shield Emitters (as well as the Shield Heal proc for them)...yep, there's been a bunch added for shields.
Aux Power Config - Defense also boosts Hull healing. There's also a Hull heal proc for the Embassy Science Consoles. There's the Hull-Repairing Nanites and Fortified Hull Reputation passives. They're adding Fleet Armor Consoles with the next holding. You can proc a Hull HoT off the DCE(AtS) DOFFs. The new WCE DOFF has a 40% chance to clear hazards. There have been changes reducing the amount of damage done from Tricobalts, Transphasics, and other mines as well as Plasma DoTs from EWP/DEW/Torps/Miines...etc, etc, etc.
Sure, there's Elite Fleet Disruptors that reduce Shield Damage Reduction. There's the Enhanced Shield Penetration and Omega Graviton Amplifier from the Rep system. Various things that...require hitting the target. What's easier to hit? Escort or Cruiser/Sci Vessel?
Escort: Maneuverability, Hull, Shield
Cruiser: Hull, Shield, Maneuverability
Sci Vessel: Shield, Maneuverability, Hull
With no DR on Maneuverability (outside of hitting the 25% min To-Hit with Acc vs. Def), which benefits the most from boosts to Maneuverability? Escort.
With the changes to Hull, both + and -, while taking into consideration Maneuverability as well as diminishing returns (can't look at things in isolation); which benefits the most from boost to Hull? Escort.
With the overall changes to Shields, taking into account diminishing returns and Maneuverability; which benefits the most from the boost to Shields? Escort.
Avoidance > Mitigation. With Avoidance, there will be reduced damage done requiring Mitigation...so any boosts to Mitigation will be reflected greater in a vessel with higher Avoidance than one with lower Avoidance.
Did you notice the changes that took place with EM and Defense? Dropped from 25 to 15 then back up to 25 based on speed? Who does that benefit the most? The least? EPtE?
The list goes on and on and on and on and on...almost everything that is buffed in the game, benefits Escorts and Tacs more than Cruisers/Sci Vessels or Eng/Sci Captains.
That's before even getting into a "team" environment with crosshealing and the like...
You can build all the tank you need for PvE into a BoP. You can tank a Tac Cube in a BoP.
Since you can tank in a BoP...tanking in a Cruiser should be /faceroll. The BoP will still do more meaningful damage than the Cruiser. Less damage done to kill a target is better than more damage done to kill a target eventually.
Omega Torp, Borg Console, Cutting Beam
Hyper Torp, 0Point Console, Experimental Array
Hyper-Dual Beam, Nukara Console, Web Mines
The Omega Torp, Cutting Beam, Hyper Torp, Experimental Array, Hyper-Dual DBA, and Web Mines will all do more damage if used on an Escort than on a Cruiser or with a Tac instead of an Eng.
The Borg Console boost CrtH, CrtD, Wep Power, Hull Repair, and Grav Gens.
The 0Point Console boosts Subsystem Power, Power Insulators, and CrtH.
The Nukara Console boosts Shield Power, Power Insulators, Part Gens, and Beam Accuracy.
2pc Adapted provides a 2.5% chance to apply OWA (+10 Wep Power, +500 Weapon Drain Resist).
3pc Adapted provides a 1% chance for Reactive Deflection (the Green Diaper...near 99% damage reduction for a couple of secs).
2pc Harness provides +7.6% Plasma Damage (DEW/DEW DoT) and +15.2 EPS.
3pc Harness provides Plasma Hyperflux...boosting the Experimental Array (beefy DoT and HDR debuff).
2pc Appropriated provides +7.6% Tetryon Damage and +15.2 Flow Caps.
3pc Appropriated provides Refracting Assault...boosting the Hyper Dual Beam (FAW/BO hit additional targets).
So sure, one can see where a Cruiser-jock might want in on some of that. One can see where a Sci-jock might want in on some of that. But one could also see where the Escort-jock might want in on some of that.
So again, what's wrong with the following:
Why all the deflection away from trying to look at balancing things? I mean, that list there is pretty simple...the guy you replied to made a pretty simple statement that you ignored to reply with something he didn't say. You ignored what I said to try to offer partial truths...
There's a big difference between some of us that want a balanced game and those that want to fly as Cruiser+Eng and do everything an Escort+Tac can do. We laugh at those folks just like most do.
A balanced game would be a good thing, no? Why all the objections?
if playing PvP from Queue then everyone should be automatically transported in T1 vessels with no doff buffs and everyone is armed with phaser or disruptor beams.
problem solved
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Its easy to counter things if one decides to simply handwave away other's points.
As to that layout you keep pushing, I don't think for a moment that would work for a multitude of reasons. But its not necessary to go into that. Suffice it to say that Cryptic's game development, engagement, retention and monetization model would not work at all with it.
What you describe sounds a lot like what the game's original meta was suppossed to be like. In practice being at the extreme squishy end of things was problematic at best but that was more a result of unpolished and untested game balance than anything else.
However, as Cryptic tries to release bitesize content and include both a way to monetize it and carrots for players to chase they cannot hope to keep the innate balance you are pushing for. What you want is based on classes and ships being balanced. That's great but as gear and rep passives get released that balance will shift while the classes and ships remain static.
They have to, not only would changing them represent a PR nightmare if they are store bought, Cryptic doesn't work in a way that allows organic growth in existing aspects of the game. They work on whatever new thing they have and the rest of the game can become a bug ridden ant farm and nothing would get done unless its too game breaking or somehow allows for players circumventing the grinds.
What balance we have now, with Crpytic pushing for a lot of new gear and benefits for cruisers is how they hope to balance the game in the eyes of players. The days of rigind class roles are pretty much gone, now everyone tanks, does DPS and CC's. Destroyers and Hybrids rule the skies as they should. The mere dea of a ship that's a glass cannon or a toothless tank is pretty silly for fantasy RPGs, but downright idiotic for a space game.
As a final note:
If things were as unbalanced as you claim, why is it that when i look around me all I see is cruisers and carriers with a few escorts and sci vessels scattered here and there?
I get that everyone wants to do damage and feel cool, but if you can't get that feeling out of doing space magic or being a juggernaught cruiser then those ships are not for you. No matter how much you wish it cruisers will never be as DPS-y as escorts, and while you can argue that things are not balanced (the measure of balance is subjective after all) I will disagree based on my own ships and builds I've done and play with constantly.
I HAVE a tacscort and an engi cruiser. I like that they play differently and i personally feel that if you add the tankyness and DPS of each they are pretty similar. One performs better in some cases and that varies based on many factors. With one I can stay in the middle of any fight and wade through anything, with the other I have to constantly be zipping about. And yet both are fun and entertaining. Yet my cruiser is no slouch in the damage dealing department and my escort can usually go one on one with the E-Cure Negh'Var and Raptor, unless the cube butts in then its a lot dicier.
Honestly, I feel a lot of player's perception is based on not having worked out how to play and gear up a cruiser right. I will wholeheartedly admit that cruiser while being easier to pilot require a bit more resources invested into them before they shine. So most people are reluctant to do it without being sure of it being a worthwhile investment. But players that want to do damage in a cruiser just need to suck it up and get working on figuring out how to play a cruiser and what gear they want.
Could we choose to use shuttles instead of T1 ships? I usually do the first 10 levels in a shuttle anyway... its more fun to fly and practically as powerful.
Perhaps for pvp more balance would be something to have, but i rather like the imbalances built into the ships for PVE.. I'll be honest. I fly a Mogai and it used to bring me nearly to tears because as a default setup, its a pathetic ship. Now, its fairly decent but yeah, it was way out of balance, but i'd still rather have it that way than have it so powerful as to bore me to death..
Well the Mogai can be one of the most powerful ships out there and has a better balanced Boff-layout then most escorts.
Also do not think of the Mogai as an escort, think of it as a Warbird. The role is to sneak up on their target decloak and then unleash hell, which by the way the Mogai can be very effective at.