One of the benefits of cruisers that has been forgotten is the crew.
The crew should manage hull damage, repair systems and help a ship survive longer. At the moment they seem to just fade to black when the first shield facing goes red.
If we Leave weapons in their current state and make the crew play a bigger role in survivability vs BOFF abilities there would be more balance.
Also as ships take damage there is no diminshing performance.
Turnrate, power levels, speed, and max hull integrity should all be affected when there are serious holes in the hull. As it stands a ship can perform as well at 100% hull integrity as it can at 25% and that doesnt really make any sense in reality or Sci-Fi.
Having the crew play a role in returning the ships to optimum performance would also help create a new level of game play and bring some balance without hurting what escorts do best.
This would be a great thing to see. Currently crew regeneration seems rather weak, and I really hate that my crew dies a few seconds into any battle. It feels awful and it makes me feel bad, given that it is supposed to represent the lives on my ship. I don't want them to die in an instant.
Maybe I should stop giving them suicide pills and playing The Cure during battles.
I would give anything for an MMO that would figure out how to separate stats between PvP and PvE. That way, whenever someone playing PvP primarily complained about something being overpowered, it didn't get broken for the PvE-only guys.
I enjoy my escorts. For a long time, escorts just weren't viable, due to their low survivability for not much better damage. Now, the damage is where it makes it worth it for me, and makes playing the game fun. I might not mind a SMALL nerf, but we all know that's not how Cryptic does it. If it's worth doing at all, they will overdo it.
And, in the process, completely delegitimize an entire class of ship for everyone.
These threads are always so predictable, and they usually crop up when a new wave of players hits STO.
A few pages back someone was complainign about boff Attack Patterns being too good and Tac boff powers being too good increasing DPS.
What never fails to amaze me is how they complain about tac boff powers being too good but not engi boff powrs being too good defensively. Its hilarious really. If Tac boff powers are so OP... USE THEM!! Maybe I just missed the fine print that says that only escorts benefit from attack patters or tac boff powers, but I'm pretty sure my engi cruiser gets full benefit from using them.
Cruisers can do things escorts cannot and escorts can do things cruisers cannot. My engi cruiser happily wades into waves of angry Klingons at Starbase 24 and thanks to some of the recent passives and power creep everyone loves to complain as benefitting escorts more than cruisers, is all but indestructible while doing more DPS.
The trinity as a role enforced on players is a BAD idea in fantasy games and downright inconceivable in a sci fi setting... with spaceships. If the ship type you use is not measuring up t your standards then just switch to something else.
This would be a great thing to see. Currently crew regeneration seems rather weak, and I really hate that my crew dies a few seconds into any battle. It feels awful and it makes me feel bad, given that it is supposed to represent the lives on my ship. I don't want them to die in an instant.
Maybe I should stop giving them suicide pills and playing The Cure during battles.
Get the nurse boff that heals your crew faster, its got a very noticeable effect.
What never fails to amaze me is how they complain about tac boff powers being too good but not engi boff powrs being too good defensively. Its hilarious really.
Hilarious is your claim that engi boff abilities are strong. For the most part, engi boff abilities suck. I'll give a slight nod towards EPtX, and RSP actually is a strong ability. I'll admit my opinion might change slightly if I PvPd and had more need for the cleanse ET offers.
Maybe I just missed the fine print that says that only escorts benefit from attack patters or tac boff powers, but I'm pretty sure my engi cruiser gets full benefit from using them.
Only your escort is going to have the highest ranks of those abilities. Your cruiser probably won't even get a selection of more than three, of the low ranked versions, and probably only one rank 1 version of any of the attack patterns.
I guess you could devote most of your doff slots to reducing the cooldown on that one copy of a low rank attack pattern...
"Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." - Aristotle
There would be no more holds to be "magically immune" to if they got rid of the magic.
You mean science? The one counter this game has to ANYTHING in pvp? Which is practically worthless anyway after people complained about it killing their escorts...
Tractor beams were only used in ST to pull in relatively small masses or non resisting objects. It's another magic power needlessly added to STO. Wesley used it once to push away another ship, but that was experimental and it was Wesley.
And STO is set 40 years(ish) after those events, I'm sure that technological developments over that time period would account for such things I mean, heck, we're doing in excess of warp 30.
You are relying on the TNG habit of making the Deflector Dish do everything from Gravity manipulation to a Spinal Lance. Watch the REAL Star Trek TOS and you might get my point. And again, if you have Gravity Tech that good, you would be using it as a Propulsion system rather than Warp. It's just another magic spell for WoWTrek.
Maybe I am but then again TOS is ancient history by this point in the timeline, VOY is the even worse for it than TNG but that is established canon now, might as well use it. As for the propulsion, in case you hadn't noticed them gravity wells do some damage, you only use something for propulsion if it isn't going to cause damage to the ship using it, that's basic common sense.
Viral Matrix would work ONCE per battle as the receiving ship "adapts" to the Malware. Also Feds should not be using Malware if they were loyal to the IP.
As much I hate saying this, STO is a game first and ST second
Glad you agree about the shuttles. How about this: Cloaks have been shown throughout Trek to be notoriously fragile. Thus, when I reduce a BoP to less than 50% hull, he should NOT be able to Battle Cloak and bravely run away like a little girl which is the norm in this game.
Is it really worth doing that to a BoP? A good pilot will cloak if he/she doesn't kill you within 10 seconds of decloaking and if you do pin a bad one they die completely within 20 seconds... Not worth the extra code if you ask me.
It IS the ultimate DPS fest because that's how a realistic environment should work. Instead of Malware and magic spells it should be weapon's power against Hull and Shields.
Maybe if you were to undo the entire power creep and go back to launch balance that might work, as it stands though one NEEDs a science officer at least to kill anything in pvp and we should stand by our science brothers and sisters in calling for buffs in their department to make the killing of all things easier
Sci Captains and ships should never have existed in this game, but they were copying the sad tired old MMO formula and needed a Mage.
The same with playable monster races. but they are dug in so bad now that only a total redo of STO would fix things.
I can use the same "ancient history" disclaimer about all of Trek beyond TOS as JJ appears to be rebooting the entire franchise from there. $$$ = Most canon and currently JJ Trek is the only girl working so It's time for the genners to sit back and take what we TOS people had to.
Tractor beams may have come a long way, but if simply Polarizing the Hull from Enterprise (200 years prior to TOS) neutralizes them, then modern Hull manufacturing would have encorporated a "Tractorless" coating by now as well.
Keeping things as real as possible is always a benefit and I'm sure all those people currently being spawn camped and Alpha shot would appreciate at least cleaning the little mosquito's clocks.
But don't listen to me. Keep it exactly like it is since so many people like it that way. Most people would rather chew off a limb than PvP because of all the Sci magic powers and having to memorize all their counters. Hard core Trekkers may put up it, but casual and visiting people won't.
Eventually all the hard core trekkers will be huddled around ther Next gen Blu-rays mumbling "make it so" while the servers go dark.
That's your future Ebenezzer, unless changes are made.
Tractor beams may have come a long way, but if simply Polarizing the Hull from Enterprise (200 years prior to TOS) neutralizes them, then modern Hull manufacturing would have encorporated a "Tractorless" coating by now as well.
lets not forget the hole you should pull your self a part trying to escape a BIGER then your ship TB
In my honest opinion this thread has a fair amount of worthy argument. While I didn't see the addressing of the great need for tank players at current to take the heat off all the escorts, it is fairly spot on.
Escorts are so many because:
1) The are good platforms for doing massive damage.
2) Cruisers don't do enough damage without a large sac to their ability to survive.
3) Science ships suck for the role they need to be used for, flying a escort with science abilities is simply better.
There is a lot that can be done to fix this, which I will post some of my ideas in the days to come. However, a good amount of though needs to be put into how we can drive away from escorts.
Im a PvEr and Ive lost all care for good gear that only comes from rep grind and the like or the need to buy Z store ships any more. In PvE it just doesnt matter anymore. I dont even feel that useful with my Vesta triple pack of consoles.
PvE needs to be reworked where theres no such thing as first place for DPS. I want to FEEL valuable to my fellow Captains when Im in my Eng and Sci toons. Instead of DPS, take SB24 for example, make it nothing but Optionals for things like kill all Klinks in X amount of time, Starship deaths under X amount, X amount of Combo strikes (where a combo is killing 3 starships within 5-7 seconds) and defensive turrets on the starbase itself that must stay healed. Make the Sci and Eng ships feel needed for their roles where they know they must be good at their jobs of holding and healing for the team to get the best quality loot. If all optionals are accomplished, the whole team gets the exact same purple quality loot, miss 1-2 optionals and the loot falls to a blue item and on down the line. Make it so a balanced team of starships has the best chance at completing all optionals so that Sci and Eng dont envy the DPS of Tacs and Tacs have a harder time or impossible time of getting all optionals if every ship is a tac. Make our consoles feel valuable by making the team say "thank goodness the Zorro had some AMS on his ship to stop that squad from taking out the starbase life support tanks.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Furthermore nothing matters in this STO world. And when what we do doesnt matter, people stop caring, people stop grinding, and people stop buying.
What we need are 3-7 day Fleet events that pay out Dilithium and can build up to bigger and better payouts. For instance a star system evacuation event. A map thats built like a space guantlet. Several planets in the system will lose their sun, entire system must be evacuated, but a rival to those planets wants to kill them as they evacuate and they will be laying in wait in a Briar Patch type map that makes you navigate in a zig zag pattern to get out, give it a ST Armada type feel to the map. You only get rewards if you participate and personally evacuate x amount of refugees in 3-7 days. Events will be paired in threes. So next event next week or two weeks from the prior, if you participated in Event 1 of 3, then you get a dilithium multiplier to your reward. If you complete all three events in order maximum multiplier. Z store consoles will feel more valuable as they will help you get through the mini grind faster. Emphasis on mini grind. It should only take 1 hour of grind per every day event is open for a moderately equipped ship. Better more well equipped can get their daily quota done in 45 minutes. If a global quota is met by the entire community then another reward is given, but the best rewards are on an individual participation basis.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
While I believe some adjustments need to be made, and some have already taken place, as a whole escorts are not an unbalancing problem.
This game has a high meta curve. Everyone says pve easy, but that is only partially true. The content is easy, but character construction is NOT. Planning out and executing a strong build is highly elusive in this game. Adopting vital strategies to harness the most potential is equally scarce.
I see poor builds and poor judgment everywhere in the PUG environment. I see players struggling to accomplish things I know are very 'easy' with the right build and management.
I cannot speak for other fleets. I can say with all honesty that many new players to STO who come into close contact with my fleet often have a very large, eye opening, change of how they play the game after a session or two with the mentoring "Veterans' in our voice channel.
The game just needs a radical overhaul on it's mechanics. Cryptic won't do it though because it is too risking. Easier to keep things as is so long as the money flows.
You know Cryptic has Jumped the Proverbial Shark when they introduced Tractor Pulling to Star Trek Online!
PvP is a whole 'nother ball game. Escorts can't tank for s**t in PvP unless they are getting healed/buffed from a teammate. Again, if people knew the game they would know this...
Well i think its pretty obvious your clueless about this game...
Explain to me why a BOP can tank a TAC Cube?
Explain to me why a Jem Bug can tank multiple normal cubes?
Explain to me why several escort types (jem bug, defiant, HEC to name a few) can tank against 4 ships in pvp pounding on them alone?
In all cases above the escort was on its own with no healer around.
"You know when that shark bites, with its teeth dear... scarlet billows start to spread..."
.....I even have three copies of TT1 because there's really nothing else to put in that awful third ensign slot.
I think we can see what's going on here. If you are really slotting 3 copies of TT1 then I don't see the need to give your words much weight just yet.
Sorry but maybe when you can see past a third TT1 we can have a more meaningful discussion. Its no shame to not know how to build ships and then thinking something is wrong. The game does such a poor job of teaching players how to build that most get to lvl 50 with no real idea of how to do it and think that competent builds are somehow broken.
Well i think its pretty obvious your clueless about this game...
Explain to me why a BOP can tank a TAC Cube?
Explain to me why a Jem Bug can tank multiple normal cubes?
Explain to me why several escort types (jem bug, defiant, HEC to name a few) can tank against 4 ships in pvp pounding on them alone?
In all cases above the escort was on its own with no healer around.
I think it is you sir who didn't read... When is there a tac cube in PvP? Next time be sure to read my whole post thoroughly.
Not all heals are seen or have a visual that is readily recognized or you are just to per-occupied to see them. Please get your facts straight before you come here and run your mouth on something you know nothing about. Do you know how defense and accuracy works in this game? I do. An escort gets high defense (And a bonus because of speed). Take that speed away through a hold of some sort like a tractor beam (between a hold clear) and their defense goes down to a negative defense. But alas, escorts can only rely on defense for so long before it (defense) won't protect them (heal cool-downs). Turn on all your damage floaters and watch them above the escort you are watching. You will see a lot of low numbers or even a lot of "misses" for those shots being taken at that escort. Its not that they are tanking well, its because of their defense is allowing those escorts to "maneuver" around those shots (in a game sense).
Building your ship/character has A LOT to do with what you "perceive" as the ability to stay alive or "tank".
As far a PvP, again unless someone is holding that escort, it will seem like he is just "tanking it up". Again, defense my fine friend. You want to hit that escort on the move? Accuracy needs to be high to overcome his defense and that isn't going to happen unless you get his defense low. Two high powered DPS escorts in PvP can fight each other all day by themselves unless one is being out maneuvered or being held. Then, all it takes in an alpha strike (burst DPS between tac teams or that power crutch "RSP") to utterly destroy that escort.
PS - I have been playing since open beta as a escort in both PvP and PvE. But this argument usually comes up anytime there is a new influx of noob players who do not understand this game. Every time this happens, these "whining" or "complaining" threads show up.
This game has a high meta curve. Everyone says pve easy, but that is only partially true. The content is easy, but character construction is NOT. Planning out and executing a strong build is highly elusive in this game.
This is very much the case, the game does a terrible job of teaching one how to build a strong ship of any kind.
This is very much the case, the game does a terrible job of teaching one how to build a strong ship of any kind.
Agreed. While I don't usually recommend this, PvP boot camp may be a good place for the players who recently leveled to 50 to get good strong build (or at least an understanding of the game), it might be an idea. I have found that most PvP builds are exceptional in PvE. It teaches teamwork (and maybe some solo stuff) and how to build you ships for almost anything.
I think it is you sir who didn't read... When is there a tac cube in PvP? Next time be sure to read my whole post thoroughly.
Not all heals are seen or have a visual that is readily recognized or you are just to per-occupied to see them. Please get your facts straight before you come here and run your mouth on something you know nothing about. Do you know how defense and accuracy works in this game? I do. An escort gets high defense (And a bonus because of speed). Take that speed away through a hold of some sort like a tractor beam (between a hold clear) and their defense goes down to a negative defense. But alas, escorts can only rely on defense for so long before it (defense) won't protect them (heal cool-downs). Turn on all your damage floaters and watch them above the escort you are watching. You will see a lot of low numbers or even a lot of "misses" for those shots being taken at that escort. Its not that they are tanking well, its because of their defense is allowing those escorts to "maneuver" around those shots (in a game sense).
Building your ship/character has A LOT to do with what you "perceive" as the ability to stay alive or "tank".
As far a PvP, again unless someone is holding that escort, it will seem like he is just "tanking it up". Again, defense my fine friend. You want to hit that escort on the move? Accuracy needs to be high to overcome his defense and that isn't going to happen unless you get his defense low. Two high powered DPS escorts in PvP can fight each other all day by themselves unless one is being out maneuvered or being held. Then, all it takes in an alpha strike (burst DPS between tac teams or that power crutch "RSP") to utterly destroy that escort.
PS - I have been playing since open beta as a escort in both PvP and PvE. But this argument usually comes up anytime there is a new influx of noob players who do not understand this game. Every time this happens, these "whining" or "complaining" threads show up.
Tanking isn't just taking damage, its also avoiding it altogether, to tank is to be able to mitigate though some means, a large portion of the damage being directed to you, or simple having the health, hull, what have you, to take it.
the high defense of escorts is still a form of tanking, which is why people say their too tanky. and their resistance can be every bit as good as a cruiser, what they lack is hull. but escorts are supposed to get firepower for squish factor, but they don't have a lot of squish factor anymore, not with how easy it is to shrug off most hold, slows, engine disables, wrap plasma, what have you. which is also what's hurting pressure dps in pvp, since you cant make a escort hang around and engage if its alpha is failing. I'm not one for wanting to return to original release sci abilities, were you could be rendered helpless by one ship for 45 secs or more, but you have to admit that changes in crippling, slowing, draining abilities, couped with changes in gear and defensive powers, and left escorts very tanky thanks to the def boost they get, and how hard it is to pin them down.
Tanking isn't just taking damage, its also avoiding it altogether, to tank is to be able to mitigate though some means, a large portion of the damage being directed to you, or simple having the health, hull, what have you, to take it.
the high defense of escorts is still a form of tanking, which is why people say their too tanky. and their resistance can be every bit as good as a cruiser, what they lack is hull. but escorts are supposed to get firepower for squish factor, but they don't have a lot of squish factor anymore, not with how easy it is to shrug off most hold, slows, engine disables, wrap plasma, what have you. which is also what's hurting pressure dps in pvp, since you cant make a escort hang around and engage if its alpha is failing. I'm not one for wanting to return to original release sci abilities, were you could be rendered helpless by one ship for 45 secs or more, but you have to admit that changes in crippling, slowing, draining abilities, couped with changes in gear and defensive powers, and left escorts very tanky thanks to the def boost they get, and how hard it is to pin them down.
And that is the difference between PvE and PvP. While I agree, release level sci abilities were OP, going into a PvP match with a properly set up team can render even the most "tankiest" of escorts helpless and looking like a noob with tractor spam, gravity wells and sub-nukes.
While there needs to be balance in the game, I believe that "balance" is achieved in powers/consoles, not the ships or classes. A tac escort is "working as intended". To mitigate their DPS and defense would be a complete opposite of what they are intended.
But also, I do not find it hard to pin down an escort. Its all about timing of those holds. Yeah, if an escort has APO running and you throw a tractor or gravity well on it, it will do nothing to that escort until APO runs out and by then they are usually out of range of that tractor or gravity well. In addition, most escorts are running two APO or one (if they are running the APO cool-down reduction doff). Yes it is hard to hold an escort down, but again, this is working as intended. Escorts were designed to deal a extensive amount of damage, high maneuverability and quickly move in and out of combat.
But more in point, its always the Jem bug or defiant that makes it's way into these threads. I am sorry not everyone can get/afford the Jem bug or the fleet defiant or that they feel owned by what they perceive as an overpowered/tanky escort. I use it (Jem Bug), and I extremely like it. Am I invincible? No. Can I survive a long time? Yes, if the conditions are right. Does it do well in PvE? Yes, the universal slots leave a host of combinations for builds. Do PvP'rs like this ship? Yes, see previous comment. Is it the best escort in the game? Depends on your play-style. The Jem Bug does not make a bad player good. Like all the ships, you have to learn them. If you don't have one, or if you don't have a proper build for it, don't come to the forums complaining about how OP it is because you got your butt handed to you in PvE/PvP. Its not classy. Also, do not come here if you are new to the game complaining about this and that, when in fact, you haven't even touched the surface of the game like most of us veterans here... (This is not directed at anyone in particular)
All in all, I am pretty satisfied with this game, ships, powers/consoles. Some things are prematurely nerfed or buffed (and when its done, its never subtle, its always extreme on way to the other) but for the most part I have no complaints. My real complaint is sometimes certain people in "organized events" have a tendency to complain when something comes out that makes they have to think outside of their element (outside of their normal routine) when they themselves first spam that stuff for the quick/easy kill/win. This makes me sick, actually. It shouldn't happen but it does.
I have 3 Engineers, 2 Science and 2 Tactical characters. I play them all. I in no way feel penalized when playing my non-Tactical characters in their cruisers/science ships.
Good for you that you have no problem with taking vastly longer to grind levels or gathering crafting material or to be relegated to a backseat in STFs as you can never win 1st place unless you play an escort and are also oblivious to the occasional rude comment about bringing an sci ship instead if a escort.
But there are people out there who notice those things.
Good for you that you have no problem with taking vastly longer to grind levels or gathering crafting material or to be relegated to a backseat in STFs as you can never win 1st place unless you play an escort and are also oblivious to the occasional rude comment about bringing an sci ship instead if a escort.
But there are people out there who notice those things.
I can actually bring home first in some stfs, CE, mine field, with my SCI or my engi. Typically in a recluse with mesh weavers, or my talshiar BC on my sci, infact the sci has a fairly good chance of first or 2nd in CE thanks to grav well. the engi as well, though that's more all the torps I have and mesh weavers. but it has to do with being able to be super aggressive because im in a flying brick, especially in the recluse. Hell I tank tac cubes 1.5-3km off their hull, not because of turn rate, but because I can tank them at that range and not care about the torps.
in some of the placement stfs is very easy to pull way more stuff then you can handle if your not in a brick, most escorts are good about engaging what they can kill quickly. but play to the cruisers strengths in those, be aggressive, shoot everything! faw, or rapid. move all your healing to self centric, but shift to throwing out what damage you can, at anything that's in range, without a care in the world since your a flying space brick. Im not saying youll always take first, but you should start to see it.
Good for you that you have no problem with taking vastly longer to grind levels or gathering crafting material or to be relegated to a backseat in STFs as you can never win 1st place unless you play an escort and are also oblivious to the occasional rude comment about bringing an sci ship instead if a escort.
But there are people out there who notice those things.
Your inaccuracies regarding non-escort performance couldn't be more glaring. Cruisers and Sci ships will out perform cannon equipped escorts in PvE environments via sustained damage. The fact is, burst means NOTHING in PvE. You will not burst your way to first place in Gorn Minefield verse a decent Bfaw boat. Your escort will not burst your way to the top of the damage charts in any STF verses good sci ships and cruisers.
I can actually bring home first in some stfs, CE, mine field, with my SCI or my engi. Typically in a recluse with mesh weavers, or my talshiar BC on my sci, infact the sci has a fairly good chance of first or 2nd in CE thanks to grav well. the engi as well, though that's more all the torps I have and mesh weavers. but it has to do with being able to be super aggressive because im in a flying brick, especially in the recluse. Hell I tank tac cubes 1.5-3km off their hull, not because of turn rate, but because I can tank them at that range and not care about the torps.
in some of the placement stfs is very easy to pull way more stuff then you can handle if your not in a brick, most escorts are good about engaging what they can kill quickly. but play to the cruisers strengths in those, be aggressive, shoot everything! faw, or rapid. move all your healing to self centric, but shift to throwing out what damage you can, at anything that's in range, without a care in the world since your a flying space brick. Im not saying youll always take first, but you should start to see it.
I wish everyone understood like you...:) Would be a pleasure to fly along side of you in my escort.
I wish everyone understood like you...:) Would be a pleasure to fly along side of you in my escort.
Cruisers and larger bring to mind a ship quote from a book "hung in the air in much the same way that bricks don't"
though I still contend that pvp is utterly imbalanced, and in favor of escorts right now, partially due to def, and largely due to other imbalances in dps vs survivability vs control. STO has said they will get to it, so they have as much admitted that its out of whack at least some way.
but pve doesn't see the same issues, and head to head dps in pve is more about weapons, environment, class being used, then it is about the ship its self in most cases. but bring a brick can matter there, so its a strength to play off of .
Edit
a nice example in mine field, fed or kdf, is the second phase asteroid stations, the far right station has its pack, and the patrol pack, a well built cruiser or heavier can swing in, FaW through the first pack, and keep on trucking into the second with a torp spread or the like, and fight both packs at once, spaming out as much damage as possible across all the targets, and racking up a nice healing bonus keeping them selves alive.
The amount of inaccurate information in this thread is making my head hurt.
Escorts are NOT squishy
Same resistance potential, same healing potential, slightly lower passive regen, 10% less base HP (shield/hull) than cruiser, same as sci (hull penalty on sci hurts), but have 10% bonus defense making the effective HP/regen of all 3 ship classes roughly the same.
Holds do NOT effect escorts more than any other hull
Want to know a secret about those bonus defense values? You still get them while being held reducing the amount of accuracy overflow the enemy gets or still allowing the enemy to miss. *edit* you do loose the 10% for being an escort it seems *edit* Granted in the past few escorts ran with a high shield power level or EPtS 3 but now days both of those can be done if desired. Those are a boff difference, not a hull difference.
Escorts have the most ESCAPE from hold capability
Next time someone hits you with a TB try popping your evasive and/or deuterium plus jacking engine power. It is fun.
Cruisers can deal good damage
Not as much as escorts, nor as bursty or as focused. However if you stack a ton of special TRIBBLE on a cruiser beam boat and become even more squishy than a stock escort one can pump out respectable DPS. Infact I prefer using beams for some PvE content. Downside is you really have to gather a TRIBBLE ton of expensive gear and use highly specialized builds.
Carriers are carriers not sci vessels or cruisers
Just because a carrier shines in specific PvE situations does not mean that escorts are not OP or that cruisers/sci vessels are not UP.
Getting 1st in a FA does not mean your ship is a DPS monster
First off you could just be the best baddie on the team. Secondly passive overhealing is more valuable in FAs than any amount of damage to score 1st. Simply use things like borg set proc, shield distro doffs, and other things that grant massive amounts of healing even when not hurt and you will always get first.
Just because a ton of debuffs + teamwork can kill something in PvP
Does not mean it is balanced. Throw 3+ ships using proper teamwork and timing against anything and it will die. Sub-Nuke FTW!
Sci Captains and ships should never have existed in this game, but they were copying the sad tired old MMO formula and needed a Mage.
That 'tired old MMO formula' exists for a reason.
When people talk about how much they hate the Trinity, they really tend to seem to mean , "I hate the two thirds of the Trinity playstyles that I don't personally enjoy, and that means they should be rendered useless. "
Damage is always going to be a requirement in any game that revolves around combat as the primary content/means of advancement, which means that supporting other play styles requires mechanics that make them necessary, because otherwise it comes down to 'damage is the only thing that matters'.
Which is basically what we're seeing in STO. Sure, you can still fly a ship fit for tanking/healing/cc/debuff/whatever, but all you're really doing is slowing your team down, because in 9 out of 10 situations, 'more DPS' would have far more useful to your team than all your tanking/healing/cc/debuff abilitis.
But don't listen to me. Keep it exactly like it is since so many people like it that way. Most people would rather chew off a limb than PvP because of all the Sci magic powers and having to memorize all their counters. Hard core Trekkers may put up it, but casual and visiting people won't.
Might I suggest one of many available FPS's? No counters required, just point and shoot, respawn and repeat.
When people talk about how much they hate the Trinity, they really tend to seem to mean , "I hate the two thirds of the Trinity playstyles that I don't personally enjoy, and that means they should be rendered useless. "
No, when people talk about how much they hate the trinity, they mean "I hate having to wait hours to find a group"
When people talk about how much they love the trinity, they mean "I love having people beholden to me just because i tank/heal, regardless of how good or bad I am"
No, when people talk about how much they hate the trinity, they mean "I hate having to wait hours to find a group"
When people talk about how much they love the trinity, they mean "I love having people beholden to me just because i tank/heal, regardless of how good or bad I am"
No well built game takes hours to find a group even with the trinity. WoW you can have a group in minutes as DPS. TOR, same thing groups form quickly. Also, please, tanking and healing are much harder than DPS for almost everything but raid level content. In WoW normal content is tuned so loose that your DPS can be atrocious and you still win.
Bad players gravitate to DPS because they think it's the "easiest". This game has a huge base of unknowledgable players and plays more like a single player game than a group game. I mean it doesn't even have damage meters that are visible to the players. You have to get combat log parsers to do it.
Its built to let everyone be winners and for Cryptic to take their money to the bank. I'm fine with it, along with most players I'm sure, but don't pretend that escorts and tac aren't OP. They're OP because that's what a majority of players want, big numbers, and Cryptic is more than happy to sell you those numbers for Zen.
Comments
This would be a great thing to see. Currently crew regeneration seems rather weak, and I really hate that my crew dies a few seconds into any battle. It feels awful and it makes me feel bad, given that it is supposed to represent the lives on my ship. I don't want them to die in an instant.
Maybe I should stop giving them suicide pills and playing The Cure during battles.
I enjoy my escorts. For a long time, escorts just weren't viable, due to their low survivability for not much better damage. Now, the damage is where it makes it worth it for me, and makes playing the game fun. I might not mind a SMALL nerf, but we all know that's not how Cryptic does it. If it's worth doing at all, they will overdo it.
And, in the process, completely delegitimize an entire class of ship for everyone.
A few pages back someone was complainign about boff Attack Patterns being too good and Tac boff powers being too good increasing DPS.
What never fails to amaze me is how they complain about tac boff powers being too good but not engi boff powrs being too good defensively. Its hilarious really. If Tac boff powers are so OP... USE THEM!! Maybe I just missed the fine print that says that only escorts benefit from attack patters or tac boff powers, but I'm pretty sure my engi cruiser gets full benefit from using them.
Cruisers can do things escorts cannot and escorts can do things cruisers cannot. My engi cruiser happily wades into waves of angry Klingons at Starbase 24 and thanks to some of the recent passives and power creep everyone loves to complain as benefitting escorts more than cruisers, is all but indestructible while doing more DPS.
The trinity as a role enforced on players is a BAD idea in fantasy games and downright inconceivable in a sci fi setting... with spaceships. If the ship type you use is not measuring up t your standards then just switch to something else.
Get the nurse boff that heals your crew faster, its got a very noticeable effect.
I do. I even have three copies of TT1 because there's really nothing else to put in that awful third ensign slot.
Only your escort is going to have the highest ranks of those abilities. Your cruiser probably won't even get a selection of more than three, of the low ranked versions, and probably only one rank 1 version of any of the attack patterns.
I guess you could devote most of your doff slots to reducing the cooldown on that one copy of a low rank attack pattern...
You mean science? The one counter this game has to ANYTHING in pvp? Which is practically worthless anyway after people complained about it killing their escorts...
And STO is set 40 years(ish) after those events, I'm sure that technological developments over that time period would account for such things I mean, heck, we're doing in excess of warp 30.
Maybe I am but then again TOS is ancient history by this point in the timeline, VOY is the even worse for it than TNG but that is established canon now, might as well use it. As for the propulsion, in case you hadn't noticed them gravity wells do some damage, you only use something for propulsion if it isn't going to cause damage to the ship using it, that's basic common sense.
As much I hate saying this, STO is a game first and ST second
Is it really worth doing that to a BoP? A good pilot will cloak if he/she doesn't kill you within 10 seconds of decloaking and if you do pin a bad one they die completely within 20 seconds... Not worth the extra code if you ask me.
Maybe if you were to undo the entire power creep and go back to launch balance that might work, as it stands though one NEEDs a science officer at least to kill anything in pvp and we should stand by our science brothers and sisters in calling for buffs in their department to make the killing of all things easier
The same with playable monster races. but they are dug in so bad now that only a total redo of STO would fix things.
I can use the same "ancient history" disclaimer about all of Trek beyond TOS as JJ appears to be rebooting the entire franchise from there. $$$ = Most canon and currently JJ Trek is the only girl working so It's time for the genners to sit back and take what we TOS people had to.
Tractor beams may have come a long way, but if simply Polarizing the Hull from Enterprise (200 years prior to TOS) neutralizes them, then modern Hull manufacturing would have encorporated a "Tractorless" coating by now as well.
Keeping things as real as possible is always a benefit and I'm sure all those people currently being spawn camped and Alpha shot would appreciate at least cleaning the little mosquito's clocks.
But don't listen to me. Keep it exactly like it is since so many people like it that way. Most people would rather chew off a limb than PvP because of all the Sci magic powers and having to memorize all their counters. Hard core Trekkers may put up it, but casual and visiting people won't.
Eventually all the hard core trekkers will be huddled around ther Next gen Blu-rays mumbling "make it so" while the servers go dark.
That's your future Ebenezzer, unless changes are made.
lets not forget the hole you should pull your self a part trying to escape a BIGER then your ship TB
system Lord Baal is dead
Escorts are so many because:
1) The are good platforms for doing massive damage.
2) Cruisers don't do enough damage without a large sac to their ability to survive.
3) Science ships suck for the role they need to be used for, flying a escort with science abilities is simply better.
There is a lot that can be done to fix this, which I will post some of my ideas in the days to come. However, a good amount of though needs to be put into how we can drive away from escorts.
PvE needs to be reworked where theres no such thing as first place for DPS. I want to FEEL valuable to my fellow Captains when Im in my Eng and Sci toons. Instead of DPS, take SB24 for example, make it nothing but Optionals for things like kill all Klinks in X amount of time, Starship deaths under X amount, X amount of Combo strikes (where a combo is killing 3 starships within 5-7 seconds) and defensive turrets on the starbase itself that must stay healed. Make the Sci and Eng ships feel needed for their roles where they know they must be good at their jobs of holding and healing for the team to get the best quality loot. If all optionals are accomplished, the whole team gets the exact same purple quality loot, miss 1-2 optionals and the loot falls to a blue item and on down the line. Make it so a balanced team of starships has the best chance at completing all optionals so that Sci and Eng dont envy the DPS of Tacs and Tacs have a harder time or impossible time of getting all optionals if every ship is a tac. Make our consoles feel valuable by making the team say "thank goodness the Zorro had some AMS on his ship to stop that squad from taking out the starbase life support tanks.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
What we need are 3-7 day Fleet events that pay out Dilithium and can build up to bigger and better payouts. For instance a star system evacuation event. A map thats built like a space guantlet. Several planets in the system will lose their sun, entire system must be evacuated, but a rival to those planets wants to kill them as they evacuate and they will be laying in wait in a Briar Patch type map that makes you navigate in a zig zag pattern to get out, give it a ST Armada type feel to the map. You only get rewards if you participate and personally evacuate x amount of refugees in 3-7 days. Events will be paired in threes. So next event next week or two weeks from the prior, if you participated in Event 1 of 3, then you get a dilithium multiplier to your reward. If you complete all three events in order maximum multiplier. Z store consoles will feel more valuable as they will help you get through the mini grind faster. Emphasis on mini grind. It should only take 1 hour of grind per every day event is open for a moderately equipped ship. Better more well equipped can get their daily quota done in 45 minutes. If a global quota is met by the entire community then another reward is given, but the best rewards are on an individual participation basis.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
This game has a high meta curve. Everyone says pve easy, but that is only partially true. The content is easy, but character construction is NOT. Planning out and executing a strong build is highly elusive in this game. Adopting vital strategies to harness the most potential is equally scarce.
I see poor builds and poor judgment everywhere in the PUG environment. I see players struggling to accomplish things I know are very 'easy' with the right build and management.
I cannot speak for other fleets. I can say with all honesty that many new players to STO who come into close contact with my fleet often have a very large, eye opening, change of how they play the game after a session or two with the mentoring "Veterans' in our voice channel.
Well i think its pretty obvious your clueless about this game...
Explain to me why a BOP can tank a TAC Cube?
Explain to me why a Jem Bug can tank multiple normal cubes?
Explain to me why several escort types (jem bug, defiant, HEC to name a few) can tank against 4 ships in pvp pounding on them alone?
In all cases above the escort was on its own with no healer around.
I think we can see what's going on here. If you are really slotting 3 copies of TT1 then I don't see the need to give your words much weight just yet.
Sorry but maybe when you can see past a third TT1 we can have a more meaningful discussion. Its no shame to not know how to build ships and then thinking something is wrong. The game does such a poor job of teaching players how to build that most get to lvl 50 with no real idea of how to do it and think that competent builds are somehow broken.
I think it is you sir who didn't read... When is there a tac cube in PvP? Next time be sure to read my whole post thoroughly.
Not all heals are seen or have a visual that is readily recognized or you are just to per-occupied to see them. Please get your facts straight before you come here and run your mouth on something you know nothing about. Do you know how defense and accuracy works in this game? I do. An escort gets high defense (And a bonus because of speed). Take that speed away through a hold of some sort like a tractor beam (between a hold clear) and their defense goes down to a negative defense. But alas, escorts can only rely on defense for so long before it (defense) won't protect them (heal cool-downs). Turn on all your damage floaters and watch them above the escort you are watching. You will see a lot of low numbers or even a lot of "misses" for those shots being taken at that escort. Its not that they are tanking well, its because of their defense is allowing those escorts to "maneuver" around those shots (in a game sense).
Building your ship/character has A LOT to do with what you "perceive" as the ability to stay alive or "tank".
As far a PvP, again unless someone is holding that escort, it will seem like he is just "tanking it up". Again, defense my fine friend. You want to hit that escort on the move? Accuracy needs to be high to overcome his defense and that isn't going to happen unless you get his defense low. Two high powered DPS escorts in PvP can fight each other all day by themselves unless one is being out maneuvered or being held. Then, all it takes in an alpha strike (burst DPS between tac teams or that power crutch "RSP") to utterly destroy that escort.
PS - I have been playing since open beta as a escort in both PvP and PvE. But this argument usually comes up anytime there is a new influx of noob players who do not understand this game. Every time this happens, these "whining" or "complaining" threads show up.
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This is very much the case, the game does a terrible job of teaching one how to build a strong ship of any kind.
Agreed. While I don't usually recommend this, PvP boot camp may be a good place for the players who recently leveled to 50 to get good strong build (or at least an understanding of the game), it might be an idea. I have found that most PvP builds are exceptional in PvE. It teaches teamwork (and maybe some solo stuff) and how to build you ships for almost anything.
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Tanking isn't just taking damage, its also avoiding it altogether, to tank is to be able to mitigate though some means, a large portion of the damage being directed to you, or simple having the health, hull, what have you, to take it.
the high defense of escorts is still a form of tanking, which is why people say their too tanky. and their resistance can be every bit as good as a cruiser, what they lack is hull. but escorts are supposed to get firepower for squish factor, but they don't have a lot of squish factor anymore, not with how easy it is to shrug off most hold, slows, engine disables, wrap plasma, what have you. which is also what's hurting pressure dps in pvp, since you cant make a escort hang around and engage if its alpha is failing. I'm not one for wanting to return to original release sci abilities, were you could be rendered helpless by one ship for 45 secs or more, but you have to admit that changes in crippling, slowing, draining abilities, couped with changes in gear and defensive powers, and left escorts very tanky thanks to the def boost they get, and how hard it is to pin them down.
And that is the difference between PvE and PvP. While I agree, release level sci abilities were OP, going into a PvP match with a properly set up team can render even the most "tankiest" of escorts helpless and looking like a noob with tractor spam, gravity wells and sub-nukes.
While there needs to be balance in the game, I believe that "balance" is achieved in powers/consoles, not the ships or classes. A tac escort is "working as intended". To mitigate their DPS and defense would be a complete opposite of what they are intended.
But also, I do not find it hard to pin down an escort. Its all about timing of those holds. Yeah, if an escort has APO running and you throw a tractor or gravity well on it, it will do nothing to that escort until APO runs out and by then they are usually out of range of that tractor or gravity well. In addition, most escorts are running two APO or one (if they are running the APO cool-down reduction doff). Yes it is hard to hold an escort down, but again, this is working as intended. Escorts were designed to deal a extensive amount of damage, high maneuverability and quickly move in and out of combat.
But more in point, its always the Jem bug or defiant that makes it's way into these threads. I am sorry not everyone can get/afford the Jem bug or the fleet defiant or that they feel owned by what they perceive as an overpowered/tanky escort. I use it (Jem Bug), and I extremely like it. Am I invincible? No. Can I survive a long time? Yes, if the conditions are right. Does it do well in PvE? Yes, the universal slots leave a host of combinations for builds. Do PvP'rs like this ship? Yes, see previous comment. Is it the best escort in the game? Depends on your play-style. The Jem Bug does not make a bad player good. Like all the ships, you have to learn them. If you don't have one, or if you don't have a proper build for it, don't come to the forums complaining about how OP it is because you got your butt handed to you in PvE/PvP. Its not classy. Also, do not come here if you are new to the game complaining about this and that, when in fact, you haven't even touched the surface of the game like most of us veterans here... (This is not directed at anyone in particular)
All in all, I am pretty satisfied with this game, ships, powers/consoles. Some things are prematurely nerfed or buffed (and when its done, its never subtle, its always extreme on way to the other) but for the most part I have no complaints. My real complaint is sometimes certain people in "organized events" have a tendency to complain when something comes out that makes they have to think outside of their element (outside of their normal routine) when they themselves first spam that stuff for the quick/easy kill/win. This makes me sick, actually. It shouldn't happen but it does.
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Original Handle: the_orig_jean_luc_picard
Good for you that you have no problem with taking vastly longer to grind levels or gathering crafting material or to be relegated to a backseat in STFs as you can never win 1st place unless you play an escort and are also oblivious to the occasional rude comment about bringing an sci ship instead if a escort.
But there are people out there who notice those things.
I can actually bring home first in some stfs, CE, mine field, with my SCI or my engi. Typically in a recluse with mesh weavers, or my talshiar BC on my sci, infact the sci has a fairly good chance of first or 2nd in CE thanks to grav well. the engi as well, though that's more all the torps I have and mesh weavers. but it has to do with being able to be super aggressive because im in a flying brick, especially in the recluse. Hell I tank tac cubes 1.5-3km off their hull, not because of turn rate, but because I can tank them at that range and not care about the torps.
in some of the placement stfs is very easy to pull way more stuff then you can handle if your not in a brick, most escorts are good about engaging what they can kill quickly. but play to the cruisers strengths in those, be aggressive, shoot everything! faw, or rapid. move all your healing to self centric, but shift to throwing out what damage you can, at anything that's in range, without a care in the world since your a flying space brick. Im not saying youll always take first, but you should start to see it.
Your inaccuracies regarding non-escort performance couldn't be more glaring. Cruisers and Sci ships will out perform cannon equipped escorts in PvE environments via sustained damage. The fact is, burst means NOTHING in PvE. You will not burst your way to first place in Gorn Minefield verse a decent Bfaw boat. Your escort will not burst your way to the top of the damage charts in any STF verses good sci ships and cruisers.
Dual Heavy Cannon < Beams outside of PvP, period.
I wish everyone understood like you...:) Would be a pleasure to fly along side of you in my escort.
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Cruisers and larger bring to mind a ship quote from a book "hung in the air in much the same way that bricks don't"
though I still contend that pvp is utterly imbalanced, and in favor of escorts right now, partially due to def, and largely due to other imbalances in dps vs survivability vs control. STO has said they will get to it, so they have as much admitted that its out of whack at least some way.
but pve doesn't see the same issues, and head to head dps in pve is more about weapons, environment, class being used, then it is about the ship its self in most cases. but bring a brick can matter there, so its a strength to play off of .
Edit
a nice example in mine field, fed or kdf, is the second phase asteroid stations, the far right station has its pack, and the patrol pack, a well built cruiser or heavier can swing in, FaW through the first pack, and keep on trucking into the second with a torp spread or the like, and fight both packs at once, spaming out as much damage as possible across all the targets, and racking up a nice healing bonus keeping them selves alive.
Escorts are NOT squishy
Same resistance potential, same healing potential, slightly lower passive regen, 10% less base HP (shield/hull) than cruiser, same as sci (hull penalty on sci hurts), but have 10% bonus defense making the effective HP/regen of all 3 ship classes roughly the same.
Holds do NOT effect escorts more than any other hull
Want to know a secret about those bonus defense values? You still get them while being held reducing the amount of accuracy overflow the enemy gets or still allowing the enemy to miss. *edit* you do loose the 10% for being an escort it seems *edit* Granted in the past few escorts ran with a high shield power level or EPtS 3 but now days both of those can be done if desired. Those are a boff difference, not a hull difference.
Escorts have the most ESCAPE from hold capability
Next time someone hits you with a TB try popping your evasive and/or deuterium plus jacking engine power. It is fun.
Cruisers can deal good damage
Not as much as escorts, nor as bursty or as focused. However if you stack a ton of special TRIBBLE on a cruiser beam boat and become even more squishy than a stock escort one can pump out respectable DPS. Infact I prefer using beams for some PvE content. Downside is you really have to gather a TRIBBLE ton of expensive gear and use highly specialized builds.
Carriers are carriers not sci vessels or cruisers
Just because a carrier shines in specific PvE situations does not mean that escorts are not OP or that cruisers/sci vessels are not UP.
Getting 1st in a FA does not mean your ship is a DPS monster
First off you could just be the best baddie on the team. Secondly passive overhealing is more valuable in FAs than any amount of damage to score 1st. Simply use things like borg set proc, shield distro doffs, and other things that grant massive amounts of healing even when not hurt and you will always get first.
Just because a ton of debuffs + teamwork can kill something in PvP
Does not mean it is balanced. Throw 3+ ships using proper teamwork and timing against anything and it will die. Sub-Nuke FTW!
That 'tired old MMO formula' exists for a reason.
When people talk about how much they hate the Trinity, they really tend to seem to mean , "I hate the two thirds of the Trinity playstyles that I don't personally enjoy, and that means they should be rendered useless. "
Damage is always going to be a requirement in any game that revolves around combat as the primary content/means of advancement, which means that supporting other play styles requires mechanics that make them necessary, because otherwise it comes down to 'damage is the only thing that matters'.
Which is basically what we're seeing in STO. Sure, you can still fly a ship fit for tanking/healing/cc/debuff/whatever, but all you're really doing is slowing your team down, because in 9 out of 10 situations, 'more DPS' would have far more useful to your team than all your tanking/healing/cc/debuff abilitis.
Might I suggest one of many available FPS's? No counters required, just point and shoot, respawn and repeat.
No, when people talk about how much they hate the trinity, they mean "I hate having to wait hours to find a group"
When people talk about how much they love the trinity, they mean "I love having people beholden to me just because i tank/heal, regardless of how good or bad I am"
No well built game takes hours to find a group even with the trinity. WoW you can have a group in minutes as DPS. TOR, same thing groups form quickly. Also, please, tanking and healing are much harder than DPS for almost everything but raid level content. In WoW normal content is tuned so loose that your DPS can be atrocious and you still win.
Bad players gravitate to DPS because they think it's the "easiest". This game has a huge base of unknowledgable players and plays more like a single player game than a group game. I mean it doesn't even have damage meters that are visible to the players. You have to get combat log parsers to do it.
Its built to let everyone be winners and for Cryptic to take their money to the bank. I'm fine with it, along with most players I'm sure, but don't pretend that escorts and tac aren't OP. They're OP because that's what a majority of players want, big numbers, and Cryptic is more than happy to sell you those numbers for Zen.
BS
On my DPS sniper, it takes anywhere from 30 mins to an hour. On my 2 tanks, its instantaneous.