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Is Cryptic breaking International Law?
sterlingwarbird
Member Posts: 186 Arc User
It just occurred to me, In the United Kingdom, where I am from, it is illegal to sell lottery tickets and scratchcards to anyone who is under the age of 15.
However Cryptic will sell lockbox keys to anyone of any age without asking parental consent. The lockbox system is essentially a form of gambling and I know of two minors in my Fleet who are 13 and 14 respectively and regularly buy lockbox keys.
Since the nature of the lockbox is essentially gambling and does contain a real money element as you have to pay for Zen in order to get keys, or I know that these people have. That means that Cryptic are essentially breaking UK Law and the law of many other European States.
How are they allowed to get away with this, or is it simply that nobody has reported them yet because this sort of concept is amoral on a game that has no age limit and asks for no real identification of the person buying the zen.
So I think Cryptic are completely liable for condone this type of exploitation of younger players for financial gain as there is no age limit on which accounts can buy Zen. Why can accounts belonging to players under the age of 15 have free access to buy ingame currency with real world currency... surely there should be some sort of lock on their account until they are old enough to legally do it.
This just seems rather wrong and shady if you ask me? I would very much appreciate how Cryptic can defend its position when its essentially "selling gambling to kids".
However Cryptic will sell lockbox keys to anyone of any age without asking parental consent. The lockbox system is essentially a form of gambling and I know of two minors in my Fleet who are 13 and 14 respectively and regularly buy lockbox keys.
Since the nature of the lockbox is essentially gambling and does contain a real money element as you have to pay for Zen in order to get keys, or I know that these people have. That means that Cryptic are essentially breaking UK Law and the law of many other European States.
How are they allowed to get away with this, or is it simply that nobody has reported them yet because this sort of concept is amoral on a game that has no age limit and asks for no real identification of the person buying the zen.
So I think Cryptic are completely liable for condone this type of exploitation of younger players for financial gain as there is no age limit on which accounts can buy Zen. Why can accounts belonging to players under the age of 15 have free access to buy ingame currency with real world currency... surely there should be some sort of lock on their account until they are old enough to legally do it.
This just seems rather wrong and shady if you ask me? I would very much appreciate how Cryptic can defend its position when its essentially "selling gambling to kids".
Post edited by sterlingwarbird on
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Comments
Lockboxes are not a new thing in MMOs you know.
I'm not nitpicking, essentially what Cryptic is doing is fundamentally morally wrong and I actually think its not only that but illegal under international trading laws. I think I will actually send a letter to UK Trading Standards to see if this is actually right.
From UK Laws on Online Gambling, including "in-game" gambling used in MMO's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_gambling
"In 2003 Tessa Jowell, then Culture Secretary suggested a change in the British Gambling laws to keep up with advances in technology.
"Our gambling laws date back to the 1960s. Since then attitudes to gambling have changed and the law has failed to keep pace with rapid technological change. Gambling is now a diverse, vibrant and innovative industry and a popular leisure activity enjoyed in many forms by millions of people. The law needs to reflect that."
"The Bill identified updates to the laws already in place in the UK, and also created the UK Gambling Commission to take over from the Gambling Board. The Commission will have the power to prosecute any parties in breach of the guidelines set out by the bill and will be tasked with regulating any codes of practice they set forward. The Bill set out its licensing objectives, which are as follows:
Ensuring no link between gambling and crime or disorder
Ensuring that gambling is conducted fairly and openly
Protecting children and vulnerable adults from harm or exploitation
The Bill also set out guidelines stating that gambling will be unlawful in the UK unless granted a licence, permit or registration. It outlined the penalty for being in breach of these guidelines, that being a maximum of six months in prison, a fine, or both for each offence. Any person under 18 will not be allowed to gamble and it is an offence to invite or permit anyone under the age of 18 years old to gamble."
Hence, Cryptic are breaking UK law
As Smokeybacon said, find something else to nitpick.
Actually no, it is illegal because you are still trading in money (Zen) to have a shot at winning something in the game to people under the age of 18 which is illegal in many countries. You are encouraging minors to buy lockbox keys using zen and spend them trying to get in-game items.
How do we know that some kid is not using his mother's credit card to for keys, we don't... is there any regulation to protect that... no.
Now go find where the change was implemented.
::WARNING:: This game is not intended for use as a source of self-esteem.
Actually that is the bill that was changed, go look it up. Its the bill that was implemented in the UK in 2003 to prevent exactly the kind of exploitation which Cryptic is trying to pull.
Edit: I got nnja swiped :P
Comment still applies
Yep. And because you can't win any money from the lockboxes, it doesn't actually qualify as gambling by any definition of the law.
I'm gonna say it again because you seem to not get it.
You can't win money from the lockboxes.
You can't win money from the lockboxes.
You can't win money from the lockboxes.
Thus it is not, legally-speaking, gambling.
I'm just going to quote myself over and over again if you keep arguing this point, by the way.
Seriously doubt it, we all know how desperate they are for money. Even if it is fine legally, there is no way to restrict minors accounts from purchasing zen or have any parental controls in place to prevent this. Would you not agree?
You are wrong, it doesn't matter what the prize is... fact of the matter is, its exploitation of minors. Besides, I only asked for proof that it was legal, no need to jump on me like this because from where I stand, it looks surprisingly dodgy.
At some point, you have to say it's up to parents to stop their children from doing certain things.
If Lil' Johnny is swiping his mom's credit card to buy things, it's not on Cryptic to police that behavior. It's on the parents to teach their kids that stealing is wrong.
It's not by the definition of the word gambling, let alone legally. It is merley a game of chance that you don't need to spend money to play
On a technicality, keys can be bought with zen, however zen is not a monetary currency. You buy it with money and exchange it for a digital product. If you buy keys with Zen, that is your decision, much like it us to dump $50 worth of zen on a ship 3 pack.
Though if this was illegal, wouldn't you think that someone would have sued the TRIBBLE out of them by now? The fact that this hasn't happened doesn't support this claim...
Whether or not it's dodgy isn't an issue. It's perfectly legal behavior.
In fact, it's probably the most legal form of "raffle" or "prize giveaway" out there -- giving away things like cars or other material prizes has tax ramifications, because those items still have a cash value, even if they aren't cash themselves. Cryptic Lockbox prizes, on the other hand, are still owned by Cryptic even if you win a fancy new ship.
All you're paying for, when you buy something for STO, whether it's a C-Store item or a key to a lockbox, is the license to use said item. When STO goes under, your stuff disappears forever, and you can't ask for a refund for your money. Since you don't own anything that comes from the lockbox, you aren't technically winning a single thing.
Yes but Cryptic just allow that to happen when its their responsibility to make sure that children cannot access these features. There should be some sort of lock on buying zen for people with accounts under a certain age, to protect both minors and their parents.
As someone pointed out, unless these fleet mates are stealing the money, their parents must be paying for it. Under 16 (or is it 18.. i can't remember) - no debit card for you, just a bank card.
Quite frankly, if a parent is stupid enough to dump serious amounts of cash on a online game for their child, that has absolutely nothing to do with cryptic.
Though really, I do agree/belive that it skirts the intent of the laws concerning lotteries an gambling at the very least. I t might even be rulled a big nono in the US. I think a suit for damages on People court would be great fun to see. (go get 'em Judge Judy!)
See, that's what I thought as well, its probably some obscure legal loophole that Cryptic is using to justify it but it doesn't make it any less right. If there is no age limit on the game, then their should be measures to protect children, like the profanity filter that is already in the game.
What about methods to stop children from buying stupid amounts of zen? Surely that would become a very grey legal issue because Cryptic are doing nothing to stop them and its their responsibility as a company?
oh I agree, parents should be spanked for letting their kids buy drugs... so should the drug dealers.
Europe is not a big nanny state, we just like to protect our children from online predators which don't just come in the form of individuals but companies as well. Its what is called "Good Service", most of the TV and ISP providers now have parental controls on their services, to prevent kids from buying things or accessing obscene material.
Cryptic have done nothing to protect children from being financially exploited and I find that to be quite scary actually. If Cryptic and PWE do not want to do this then they should be barred from trading in the EU.
Thank you for your straw man
If parents give their kids money to buy drugs then they should be punished yes. It is very simple though the parents are buying their kids the stuff. If they want to "protect" their children don't buy it for them... Very simple.
Because some parents do not actually know that their child does this. See, its hypothetical but it does not negate Cryptic's responsibility in this matter since everyone gives their date of birth when they sign up to STO. As a free game, they should be taking proactive steps to stop these types of things from happening. The profanity filter is automatically engaged when you join STO for the first time, so why, like what Second Life does with age verification are you not asked to submit a form of identification in online games?
Especially ones that involve a REAL MONEY element?
R.I.P
Again, it's the parents' responsibility. Trying to outsource parenting to businesses is hilariously ridiculous.
If a kid charges $500 worth of Zen onto a card, then the parent can probably call Billing and have that refunded. However, as a business, Cryptic doesn't want to put a huge barrier in front of legitimate customers just because one out of every 10,000 might be a kid with his parent's credit card and not a clue in the world. That would be bad business, and every mild inconvenience is a lot of lost sales, despite what you may think -- whenever you ask people "Are you sure?", a lot of them will say "Hmm on second thought, I don't need to spend $5 to get that Grappler console after all".
If you see a problem with kids, then go after their parents. By the time that kid is playing a T-Rated game, they should have enough sense not to (A) Steal their parents' credit card, and (B) Charge up a ton of money on it. If they don't, then the parents did a crappy job raising that kid, and Cryptic shouldn't be held responsible for it. If a kid aged below the T-rating is playing, again... it's up to the parents to make sure they're ready to play said game.
It is not a legal requirement for cryptic to police that matter, it is for the parents. I'm pretty damned sure they will notice money missing to perfect world entertainment when the statement comes through. If they don't notice missing money then they obviously have more money than sense.
Then maybe the parents should be more careful...Why should every one be punished for their stupidity and laziness. What's next the company has to hire a man to stand in the corner of every house and baby sit their kids :rolleyes: