It just occurred to me, In the United Kingdom, where I am from, it is illegal to sell lottery tickets and scratchcards to anyone who is under the age of 15.
However Cryptic will sell lockbox keys to anyone of any age without asking parental consent. The lockbox system is essentially a form of gambling and I know of two minors in my Fleet who are 13 and 14 respectively and regularly buy lockbox keys.
Since the nature of the lockbox is essentially gambling and does contain a real money element as you have to pay for Zen in order to get keys, or I know that these people have. That means that Cryptic are essentially breaking UK Law and the law of many other European States.
How are they allowed to get away with this, or is it simply that nobody has reported them yet because this sort of concept is amoral on a game that has no age limit and asks for no real identification of the person buying the zen.
So I think Cryptic are completely liable for condone this type of exploitation of younger players for financial gain as there is no age limit on which accounts can buy Zen. Why can accounts belonging to players under the age of 15 have free access to buy ingame currency with real world currency... surely there should be some sort of lock on their account until they are old enough to legally do it.
This just seems rather wrong and shady if you ask me? I would very much appreciate how Cryptic can defend its position when its essentially "selling gambling to kids".
LOL id be more worried about the US gov reading ur mail listening to ur phone calls and looking at the data you send and recive.:eek:
but since we are americans i guess its alright for the US to ilegaly look everyones elses data.
It just occurred to me, In the United Kingdom, where I am from, it is illegal to sell lottery tickets and scratchcards to anyone who is under the age of 15.
However Cryptic will sell lockbox keys to anyone of any age without asking parental consent. The lockbox system is essentially a form of gambling and I know of two minors in my Fleet who are 13 and 14 respectively and regularly buy lockbox keys.
Since the nature of the lockbox is essentially gambling and does contain a real money element as you have to pay for Zen in order to get keys, or I know that these people have. That means that Cryptic are essentially breaking UK Law and the law of many other European States.
How are they allowed to get away with this, or is it simply that nobody has reported them yet because this sort of concept is amoral on a game that has no age limit and asks for no real identification of the person buying the zen.
So I think Cryptic are completely liable for condone this type of exploitation of younger players for financial gain as there is no age limit on which accounts can buy Zen. Why can accounts belonging to players under the age of 15 have free access to buy ingame currency with real world currency... surely there should be some sort of lock on their account until they are old enough to legally do it.
This just seems rather wrong and shady if you ask me? I would very much appreciate how Cryptic can defend its position when its essentially "selling gambling to kids".
Threadstarter, you gotta get your law straight
Firstly, WHO are you dealing with ( privity of contract )
Secondly, WHERE was the transaction held ( Determine origin )
Thirdly, WHOSE & WHICH laws will apply
If you are basing the answer to the above 3 just on literal terms, you are better off donating the funds/effort you intend ( whether pro bono or not ) on constructive efforts to assist Sto-forumners on STO questions..
eg: of a literal term whose answers you will be surprises, id not what you expect
A kid below legal age in the UK, does the above-mentioned act, allegedly with crytic
1. How sure are you that the kid is dealing with Cryptic
2. How sure are you that the transaction takes place in the UK
3. How sure are you that the above act constitutes gambling
4. How sure are you that UK law will apply?
Dude, it's like trying to call the Police over one of the crane grabber games.
It's virtually the same thing, you're not guaranteed to win a prize if you play...it's a game of chance and children play those all the time for stuffed animals and other prizes...again, not a guaranteed win, but they're still paying money for the chance of winning a prize.
The position Cryptic and PWE will (if they don't already) successfully take is that the lockbox mechanic is not gambling. That the comparison between lockboxes, that always award something, and scratchcards, that often award nothing, is falacious and that the comparison to a packet of collectible game cards would therefor be more appropriate.
It just occurred to me, In the United Kingdom, where I am from, it is illegal to sell lottery tickets and scratchcards to anyone who is under the age of 15.
According to state laws in United States, you have to be eighteen years old to buy, play, and claim lottery tickets and rewards. I am not sure how this affects "Star Trek: Online".
but, because its an international game,and each country got its own rules.
doesnt the rule's from the country that "hosts" the server it?
as far as i know pw is hosted in china, only the sto support and such is in the USA?
i can remember reading something about this subject, not about pw/sto, but about wich rule's apply to mmo's,because people everywhere can access/play the game....
i cant find the information back, but i hope someonelse can clear this up??
It just occurred to me, In the United Kingdom, where I am from, it is illegal to sell lottery tickets and scratchcards to anyone who is under the age of 15.
However Cryptic will sell lockbox keys to anyone of any age without asking parental consent. The lockbox system is essentially a form of gambling and I know of two minors in my Fleet who are 13 and 14 respectively and regularly buy lockbox keys.
Since the nature of the lockbox is essentially gambling and does contain a real money element as you have to pay for Zen in order to get keys, or I know that these people have. That means that Cryptic are essentially breaking UK Law and the law of many other European States.
How are they allowed to get away with this, or is it simply that nobody has reported them yet because this sort of concept is amoral on a game that has no age limit and asks for no real identification of the person buying the zen.
So I think Cryptic are completely liable for condone this type of exploitation of younger players for financial gain as there is no age limit on which accounts can buy Zen. Why can accounts belonging to players under the age of 15 have free access to buy ingame currency with real world currency... surely there should be some sort of lock on their account until they are old enough to legally do it.
This just seems rather wrong and shady if you ask me? I would very much appreciate how Cryptic can defend its position when its essentially "selling gambling to kids".
15 year olds would most likely not have the means to purchase Zen to then buy the keys, so parental input in terms or providing the money is required and therefore not breaking any laws.
This just seems rather wrong and shady if you ask me? I would very much appreciate how Cryptic can defend its position when its essentially "selling gambling to kids".
The universe is a dangerous place. (Props to whoever got that reference) It really doesn't matter how old you are, you will be exposed to gambling at some point in your life. It's better that it's at a young age, when the amount of resources kids have available is limited. They learn their lesson earlier, as opposed to later in life when it could devastate them financially.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Don't know if anyone said it already, but the whole Lockbox thing isn't a lottery.
It is trading. You buy keys with your money, you open boxes, and each box includes something. And it doesn't matter if you have got the 45th Duty-Officer Pack, or Lobi Crystal 38 or anything else.
In each box you open, there is something included as reward. No matter how cheap or precious the items in it are.
Playing a lottery is something different, you get something or you get nothing. That is lottery.
That is a game of chance in the proper sense.
It isn't gambling and the OP literally made this thread because he is a very angry Galaxy-class/TNG fanboy trying to lash out in any way that he can. Seriously look for some of his other posts, he has made an incredible amount of angry rants on the subject.
---
Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.
(a)it is promoted only by authorised members of a society, and
(b)each person to whom a ticket is sold is either a member of the society or on premises wholly or mainly used for the administration of the society or the conduct of its affairs ("society premises").
(2)In this Part "society" means any group or society established and conducted for purposes not connected with gambling.
(3)In sub-paragraph (1)(a) "authorised" means authorised in writing by the society or, if it has one, its governing body.
(4)In relation to a society which has branches or sections, the reference to a society in sub-paragraph (1)(a) is a reference to a single branch or section.
Any form of gambling not open to members of the general public, and in fact only open to members of a closed society (under which heading we clearly fall) is exempt from UK gambling laws.
Of course, the fact that lockboxes do not in anyway constitute gambling under any known or applicable laws makes this entire subject rather pointless. Perhaps the OP should go back to his UKIP rallies.
You know Sterlingwarbird, perhaps I should sue you for wasting my time with a post like this. It appears you are drumming up some kind of support for your cause. In-game lockboxes is not gambling. Playing Dabo clearly is but that is energy credits and we all know that is about as useless as monopoly money.
15 year olds would most likely not have the means to purchase Zen to then buy the keys, so parental input in terms or providing the money is required and therefore not breaking any laws.
In addition to that, there is also the fact that one could earn Zen in game without spending any real money at all, simply by earning enough Dilithium and putting it through the exchange. Heh... if only it was that easy to earn money in the real world :P
Paid STO subscriber since December 2010, and DJ for mmo-radio
Because some parents do not actually know that their child does this. See, its hypothetical but it does not negate Cryptic's responsibility in this matter since everyone gives their date of birth when they sign up to STO. As a free game, they should be taking proactive steps to stop these types of things from happening. The profanity filter is automatically engaged when you join STO for the first time, so why, like what Second Life does with age verification are you not asked to submit a form of identification in online games?
Especially ones that involve a REAL MONEY element?
So, you agree that the parent's bank account is where the money is coming from, correct? Therefore, it is the parent purchasing the Zen, and by association, the lockbox keys, therefore, Cryptic is selling the key to the parent, not the child.
Therefore, legally, they have not broken any laws in the UK.
Since Zen is paid for with real currency, via PayPal or debit/credit card, both of which are unavailable to minors without parental consent in the UK, if a child has purchased Zen then their parents are either permitting them to use their bank account, or acknowledging that purchases are the child's responsibility by granting them a bank account. Either that, or the child has TRIBBLE a Bank, in which case gambling is the least of their problems.
If the OP is really offended by Cryptic running a so called lottery then it would be in their best interests to uninstall STO and never play any MMO type games again, safe in the knowledge that they are safe from being tempted to gamble again.
There is no gambling here in a legal sense. The lockboxes never award 'nothing', hence you cannot 'lose'. You also cannot 'win', since there is no way to extract any cash from the game.
But the real question the OP should have asked himself is: Do you think Perfect World is so stupid as to not have their legal staff check the law in the UK prior to allowing UK players to buy keys?
_________________________________________________ [Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth] [Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk] [D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
When they first launched the lockboxes this might have been an issue but they have found a way around all of this. Now you will always get something from a lockbox you are not just throwing away money for nothing.
You will always get lobi crystals so it can't be said you are giving them money for nothing. You take a chance you may get great rewards for the lockboxes besides the lobi crystals and that can be seen as a gamble but it doesn't compare to a lottery or scratch card because unlike lottery tickets and scratch cards you get something if you don't acquire the grand prize.
There is also a part relating to age in the Terms of Service we all have to agree upon before creating an account:
While the game is rated as "T", you have to be 18 to create a PWE account without the consent of a parent, you aren't allowed to use or visit content that is not intended for your age in your country and PWE isn't responsible if you do.
I read through three pages before I hit reply, if someone replied with similar comment, I apologize.
1) You do not require real money to get keys for lock boxes.
* The keys can be acquired via the in-game exchange
* You can exchange Dilithium to Zen to purchase the keys in game
2) The Terms of Service in place.
* One of the main rules is that Parents are to keep an eye on what the kids do in game
* Anyone under the age of 18 is to have a legal guardian for purchases on the account
* Anyone under the age of 18 has to have the consent of a parent / legal guardian to play the account
While there is a very small aspect of gambling in the game, it is contained completely in the game, and does NOT require real money in any way shape or form to do.
How are underaged players paying for the "lottery" then.
As far as I know you need to be 18+ to get a creditcard or use PayPal ect.
if they still are able to pay for that "lottery" then its the bank or the parents breaking the law by letting them use their creditcard or PayPal... ect.
If they allow it, it becomes legal because they got their parents permission right?
That's the problem with Blood Moon weekends - the heroes who died defending Detroit aren't the only zombies that come shambling out of their burial sites.
I already see that every thursday through sunday I don't wanna see zombie's on a forum kthx :P
/Closed
Yes, I'm that Askray@Batbayer in game. Yes, I still play. No, I don't care. Former Community Moderator, Former SSR DJ, Now Full time father to two kids, Husband, Retail Worker. Tiktok: @Askray Facebook: Askray113
Comments
LOL id be more worried about the US gov reading ur mail listening to ur phone calls and looking at the data you send and recive.:eek:
but since we are americans i guess its alright for the US to ilegaly look everyones elses data.
Threadstarter, you gotta get your law straight
Firstly, WHO are you dealing with ( privity of contract )
Secondly, WHERE was the transaction held ( Determine origin )
Thirdly, WHOSE & WHICH laws will apply
If you are basing the answer to the above 3 just on literal terms, you are better off donating the funds/effort you intend ( whether pro bono or not ) on constructive efforts to assist Sto-forumners on STO questions..
eg: of a literal term whose answers you will be surprises, id not what you expect
A kid below legal age in the UK, does the above-mentioned act, allegedly with crytic
1. How sure are you that the kid is dealing with Cryptic
2. How sure are you that the transaction takes place in the UK
3. How sure are you that the above act constitutes gambling
4. How sure are you that UK law will apply?
Get back in Game!! :P
It's virtually the same thing, you're not guaranteed to win a prize if you play...it's a game of chance and children play those all the time for stuffed animals and other prizes...again, not a guaranteed win, but they're still paying money for the chance of winning a prize.
The position Cryptic and PWE will (if they don't already) successfully take is that the lockbox mechanic is not gambling. That the comparison between lockboxes, that always award something, and scratchcards, that often award nothing, is falacious and that the comparison to a packet of collectible game cards would therefor be more appropriate.
Which, it is.
I am still waiting for you to do the right thing and turn yourself into the local authorities.
doesnt the rule's from the country that "hosts" the server it?
as far as i know pw is hosted in china, only the sto support and such is in the USA?
i can remember reading something about this subject, not about pw/sto, but about wich rule's apply to mmo's,because people everywhere can access/play the game....
i cant find the information back, but i hope someonelse can clear this up??
15 year olds would most likely not have the means to purchase Zen to then buy the keys, so parental input in terms or providing the money is required and therefore not breaking any laws.
The universe is a dangerous place. (Props to whoever got that reference) It really doesn't matter how old you are, you will be exposed to gambling at some point in your life. It's better that it's at a young age, when the amount of resources kids have available is limited. They learn their lesson earlier, as opposed to later in life when it could devastate them financially.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
It is trading. You buy keys with your money, you open boxes, and each box includes something. And it doesn't matter if you have got the 45th Duty-Officer Pack, or Lobi Crystal 38 or anything else.
In each box you open, there is something included as reward. No matter how cheap or precious the items in it are.
Playing a lottery is something different, you get something or you get nothing. That is lottery.
That is a game of chance in the proper sense.
Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades.
Any form of gambling not open to members of the general public, and in fact only open to members of a closed society (under which heading we clearly fall) is exempt from UK gambling laws.
Of course, the fact that lockboxes do not in anyway constitute gambling under any known or applicable laws makes this entire subject rather pointless. Perhaps the OP should go back to his UKIP rallies.
Sig by my better half.
In addition to that, there is also the fact that one could earn Zen in game without spending any real money at all, simply by earning enough Dilithium and putting it through the exchange. Heh... if only it was that easy to earn money in the real world :P
So, you agree that the parent's bank account is where the money is coming from, correct? Therefore, it is the parent purchasing the Zen, and by association, the lockbox keys, therefore, Cryptic is selling the key to the parent, not the child.
Therefore, legally, they have not broken any laws in the UK.
Since Zen is paid for with real currency, via PayPal or debit/credit card, both of which are unavailable to minors without parental consent in the UK, if a child has purchased Zen then their parents are either permitting them to use their bank account, or acknowledging that purchases are the child's responsibility by granting them a bank account. Either that, or the child has TRIBBLE a Bank, in which case gambling is the least of their problems.
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But the real question the OP should have asked himself is: Do you think Perfect World is so stupid as to not have their legal staff check the law in the UK prior to allowing UK players to buy keys?
[Kluless][Kold][Steel Heels][Snagtooth]
[Louis Cipher][Outta Gum][Thysa Kymbo][Spanner][Frakk]
[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
You will always get lobi crystals so it can't be said you are giving them money for nothing. You take a chance you may get great rewards for the lockboxes besides the lobi crystals and that can be seen as a gamble but it doesn't compare to a lottery or scratch card because unlike lottery tickets and scratch cards you get something if you don't acquire the grand prize.
While the game is rated as "T", you have to be 18 to create a PWE account without the consent of a parent, you aren't allowed to use or visit content that is not intended for your age in your country and PWE isn't responsible if you do.
1) You do not require real money to get keys for lock boxes.
* The keys can be acquired via the in-game exchange
* You can exchange Dilithium to Zen to purchase the keys in game
2) The Terms of Service in place.
* One of the main rules is that Parents are to keep an eye on what the kids do in game
* Anyone under the age of 18 is to have a legal guardian for purchases on the account
* Anyone under the age of 18 has to have the consent of a parent / legal guardian to play the account
While there is a very small aspect of gambling in the game, it is contained completely in the game, and does NOT require real money in any way shape or form to do.
As far as I know you need to be 18+ to get a creditcard or use PayPal ect.
if they still are able to pay for that "lottery" then its the bank or the parents breaking the law by letting them use their creditcard or PayPal... ect.
If they allow it, it becomes legal because they got their parents permission right?
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Join Date: Jul 2009
You apparently didn't read the dates. Necro post by 16 months.
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I already see that every thursday through sunday I don't wanna see zombie's on a forum kthx :P
/Closed
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