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Banned for talking with fleetmates about spam mail.

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  • pezjrpezjr Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    mancom wrote: »
    So if you don't like someone, you could just trick them into writing that web address and they get their account banned? What kind of madness is this?

    And why is the answer only a "mail support and hope for the best" and not a "This is really disturbing news, our engineers are going to investigate immediately and ensure that no legitimate player loses their account."?

    Thank you for the email addy Brandon, I just sent mine a moment ago. For the love of anything that is sane and right in the world PLEASE have that team fix this issue or at the very least have some sort of in-game warning system in place for folks that didn't think to google every word they say in chat that is longer than 2-3 letters first sir.

    Thank you. (still VERY upset though)

    -Pez

    P.S. over an hour later and I still cant sleep over this TRIBBLE tonight Brandon. I just feel really treated unfairly by Cryptic and can not get over the lack of in-game warning system at all. Is there anyone there I can contact directly about this issue? After over 30 years in customer service I feel this situation needs to be addressed quickly and placed on someone's desk who can make changes right away.
  • okitsunegaokitsunega Member Posts: 32 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    This comment was made because I was running a community event, and answering PMs at that time would have taken away from my coordination efforts: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=720531 -- If you've attended any of my past community events, I always post something similar so those who are PMing me do not think I am ignoring them.

    As I responded earlier in this thread, I have passed along your feedback so it can be considered, and commit to continue doing so. That is what I can do and will do :)

    Some good news I just learned about, though! We are considering adjusting the way the warning is displayed. I don't have exact details on this yet, but we we are hoping to be able to make it display even more clearer than it already does.

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=

    Colored by me for emphasis.

    Disclaimer: I'm aware your job is extremely difficult. I'm aware you aren't the one who's designing this flawed system, or one who's responsible for it, or making decisions regarding it. As such, any critique I express towards it, isn't directed at you personally, but rather directed through you towards - ultimately - PWE for implementing the system.. just as I take the responses from you as being responses initiated by PWE, and expressed through you. I don't envy your position as the face the company like PWE presents to it's customers.

    It's better than nothing, but not enough the way I see it.

    It's improvement, because as long as the message can be guaranteed to go through (refer to earlier suggestion about pop-up window with checkbox and confirm before you can do anything else), at least most people who are banned by the system will be aware that it's in place.. so after the first blunder the smart ones will hang their heads and STFO on all chat channels.

    It's not enough though, because the system is not exactly reliable. It's not reliable, because like so many other systems that try to interprete free text in various ways, it isn't aware of the context. And this particular system is obviously akin to newborn baby in that regard. A dumb letter pattern match will have no idea what the context or intent of the message actually was, and when you take it to the level that is necessary to try and (fail to) catch all the myriads obfuscated ways one can go about spelling the EC seller names, you unavoidably end up with a system that will fire off at complitely innocent sentences.

    Ultimately the response of EC sellers would be to create domains that are either so short that the pattern will come up in everyday chat (2 or 3 letters) or so common words that they accomplish the same (e.g. "resources"). Also keep in mind that people are not perfect typists. They make mistakes. If you ban someone for mentioning 'egpal' in any context, you'll also ban anyone who typos 'legplates' into 'legpaltes'.

    In this light, however clear and glaring you make the warning, in long term it accomplishes little more than forcing people to complitely stop using the chat, in fear that after their first 'mistake' - which quite possibly is in no way connected to the whole EC selling business (refer to carpentry example in my sig) - their second fully unintended mistake will cost them their account.

    This whole system is flawed from the very foundation. You simply cannot automate a system like this. No way, no how. It can meet with some initial success because the EC sellers are unprepared for the system, but once they begin to adapt to it, it no longer works. And if you start to evolve the automated system in order to fight them, you have to make the triggers wider and wider, and in turn you'll catch more and more innocent players. You'll end up inconviniencing and hurting the very people you should try to protect with the system (you can consider the target of the protection to be the earnings of the company, that are diminished by EC sellers undercutting the prices, but ultimately it leads to same thing - players are the ones to bring in the revenue).

    One way or the other, the only way to make the system work, is to bring in the human touch to interprete the context of the potentially offending message. You can make an automated system that pre-filters the messages to be checked, to make the human's job easier.. but you can not make the system complitely automated, and expect it to work. Human (seller) will always outsmart a simple word/letter filter that isn't aware of the context and semantics of the message - a filter that only policies letters, and not the actual message.

    <-- .t'nseod yllareneg retlif bmud a erehw gninaem dnif lliw namuh A <--

    Youz cazn quiczkly esztabzlish a sysztem thazt huzman zwill caztch zon tzo, whezre az filzter fzails toz zautomzaticalzly adazpt zto.
    Txhxexrxexfxoxrxe yxoxu cxaxn oxbxfxuxsxcxaxtxe txhxe mxexsxsxaxgxe axnxd pxaxsxs ixt txhxrxoxuxgxh txhxe fxixlxtxexr, fxoxr axnxoxtxhxexr hxuxmxaxn txo ixnxtxexrxpxrxextxe.

    Master tells you: buy cheap TRIBBLE___TRIBBLE__X___X___X___X_X___X .cmo
    Master tells you: buy cheap X__X_X___X_XX_XX__X_X__X_XX__X .cmo
    Master tells you: buy cheap X__X_X___X_X_X_X_X___X_X_X_X_X .cmo
    Master tells you: buy cheap X__X_X___X_X___X_XXXXX_X_X__XX .cmo
    Master tells you: buy cheap TRIBBLE___TRIBBLE__X___X_X___X_X_X___X .cmo
  • joelleyjoelley Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    I can forsee a hidden trap here for the international players.

    If they are chatting in their native language in a pm, and type a word in that language that includes the forbidden 5 letter sequence, they get autobanned.

    That person will have no idea what just happened.

    Also, banning someone for a typo including those letters is just ludicrous.

    This approach to spambot banning has the potential to cost you real money in large amounts.

    I suggest it is just as important and urgent as the server stability fixes that have taken place every day for some time now.
    [SIGPIC]Patch.jpg[/SIGPIC]
  • tpalelenatpalelena Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    joelley wrote: »
    I can forsee a hidden trap here for the international players.

    If they are chatting in their native language in a pm, and type a word in that language that includes the forbidden 5 letter sequence, they get autobanned.

    That person will have no idea what just happened.

    Also, banning someone for a typo including those letters is just ludicrous.

    This approach to spambot banning has the potential to cost you real money in large amounts.

    I suggest it is just as important and urgent as the server stability fixes that have taken place every day for some time now.

    Agreed. A year ago several hungarian everyday words were marked as "profane" by the curse filter in game. There were no curse words, just basic things like "Door" .
    Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
  • bones1970bones1970 Member Posts: 953 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    hfmudd wrote: »
    So the auto-banning tool is working as intended, and those who bump into it by accident once are auto-warned before they're banned by it ...

    I'd have a lot more confidence in this system if I wasn't on my ____th day of being unable to delete Exchange mail from my in-box. Just one obvious example of things that can and do go wrong.

    We have one section of the code handing out bans without human intervention, and we just have to hope and trust that it's working better than, say, the section of code that handles in-game email. :p

    +1, If the game and coders was much better i still would not trust a system like this, but with all the bugs in the game ... the ban system only need to bug 1 time and we loose our account...
    Is muting some1 for a day not a better way to start ??
    Putting key-words in a filter, that always work ???
    But what you guys made .. no words for it..
  • captyoung01captyoung01 Member Posts: 311 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    On the one hand I am glad something is being done about these hacker spammers, on the other just to talk about it gets you banned. . .<Picard Double Face Palm> Then all Bran can say is contact support directly? Employee's are over whelmed as it is with tickets and emails. Took 2 weeks to get to my ticket and yet they still couldn't restore any of my characters that went missing?? Don't hold your breath on this one, it's going to be a loooonnnngggg wait.
  • cuatelacuatela Member Posts: 296 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    One of my fleets is actually looking into third-party chat options because of this. We've had at least one member get banned simply for mistyping a word or two, or inadvertently saying a trigger word.

    None of us wants to be banned simply for saying the name of a company. We're not spamming chats or whispers, or sending out mass emails. We're not telling people to buy our stuff. We're simply trying to have conversations or roleplay our characters.

    I seriously hope PWE and Cryptic either turn this system off completely, or make some major changes to it so members (some of whom have spent thousands on this game) don't get caught in the crossfire.

  • pezjrpezjr Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    On the one hand I am glad something is being done about these hacker spammers, on the other just to talk about it gets you banned. . .<Picard Double Face Palm> Then all Bran can say is contact support directly? Employee's are over whelmed as it is with tickets and emails. Took 2 weeks to get to my ticket and yet they still couldn't restore any of my characters that went missing?? Don't hold your breath on this one, it's going to be a loooonnnngggg wait.

    Missing characters? What is this about? Are seriously saying that there is a chance I will loose toons over this non-since? Two weeks?

    WOW, Brandon I must appeal to common decency here and ask you to intervene and communicate this atrocity to the folks that can make this change happen, like now. Not "its being looked at" excuses.

    As the #3 in charge of a very small and upcoming fleet my absence over this time it will take to get my account reinstated is a real issue with delays in completing and queuing up fleet missions and such. I have alone contributed over 4.5 mil in donations in regards to fleet credit earnings with my main toon alone. Now I just spent 350,000 in dilithum to finish a project with my new Romulan to upgrade to fleet equipment and now I'm out for an undermined amount of time? This really hurts a small fleet that struggles with completing fleets projects with limited rosters in the current non-scaled fleet project system. Also be nice to see that addressed too but I know I'm pushing my luck at this point.

    Still a very unhappy camper...

    -Pez
  • betayuyabetayuya Member Posts: 1,059 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    this is what happens when you leave a "basic script" to handle what a human should be reading in a report, i have reported people like this before, best thing until pwe's method of handling these people are more "clear" is to due what i do, treat the spammer like they do not exist, and file a report in the name of the person, and what they did, or if they had made a character named by a website, and want you to say the name, which indicates no human triggering the ban, "script ran" is no administration at all, or named their ship such a name, or all of the above.

    thankfully i have not had this issue, but running their bans by a script i do not believe in, that is just baaaaad .... :S

    thought police anyone? looks as bad as a pvp exploit, this is how it really goes watch lol

    (ex.
    troll #1:"hey, i have an idea, let's get that one to say the name so they will get kicked from the game hurr hurr hurr"
    troll #2: "yup, good exploit, we will be pwning n00bs all day with this tool XD"
    troll #1: "LOL! let's enter some chats with some n00b toons named by a website and see if we find some idiots HAAHAHAHAHA!!
    troll #2: rofl!)

    you think i am joking? something like the above was going on yesterday

    best process since Win95: spam is spam, kill it dead, inform an administrator/GM
    best response since Win95, handle it as a separate entity, all being pertained to behavior on it's own list to sort out the real issues from the ones that are not
    eywdK7c.jpg
  • pezjrpezjr Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Update at ban hour #12. Apparently there is progress at Cryptic on this issue as my account was just reinstated just a moment ago without email or ticket update. This does make me feel some level of encouragement that there are actual humans looking at this problem.

    Either way this script needs to just go away to be replaced by some sort up pop-up window or server notification that can't be disabled in chat settings. Common since folks, or am I wrong?

    -Pez
  • betayuyabetayuya Member Posts: 1,059 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    welcome back :D

    but uh, ya, running that kind of ban from a script is uh, sloppy :(
    eywdK7c.jpg
  • stargazerjmbstargazerjmb Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    This comment was made because I was running a community event, and answering PMs at that time would have taken away from my coordination efforts: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=720531 -- If you've attended any of my past community events, I always post something similar so those who are PMing me do not think I am ignoring them.

    As I responded earlier in this thread, I have passed along your feedback so it can be considered, and commit to continue doing so. That is what I can do and will do :)

    Some good news I just learned about, though! We are considering adjusting the way the warning is displayed. I don't have exact details on this yet, but we we are hoping to be able to make it display even more clearer than it already does.

    Cheers,

    Brandon =/\=

    As someone else rightly pointed out Brandon we are not holding you personally responsible for this whole mess. That said however, a statement like, "...we are hoping to be able to make it display even more clearer than it already does." rings of complete obliviousness and denial to the fact that many have stated they received NO WARNING AT ALL!

    I'm concerned here that there is an ulterior motive, as I think someone already suggested, to force players to enable the annoying system which spams us with winners of ships. Personally I decided to leave this on as I'm not 100% sure that all of what is being spammed are real players. The reason I have this doubt is that I have recorded around 50 spammed winners from this system which I attempted to contact in order to congratulate, but when I typed "/tell someone@haswonaship" I received a message, "player not found". Strangely, this was not the same message I got when I tried to /tell an offline player that I knew existed. For those 50 email addresses that I recorded as being suspicious I only managed to contact 2 or 3 actual players. I have not tried to contact any winners for some time now so I'm not sure if the same thing still happens or not but if it does then it begs the question, "Why?". I'm also not the only person to have noticed this, or the fact that occasionally we appear to see someone win 2 or 3 ships in a row.
  • itsthebishopitsthebishop Member Posts: 50 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Brandon,

    It's nice to hear that you're actually considering a warning that's not invisible. It would be even nicer to hear that you've decided to take steps to make certain that players with legitimate accounts aren't being banned.

    Is the player currently a subscriber? Has the player ever purchased Cryptic points? Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't have a system that auto-bans revenue generating customers.

    I've never seen an MMO that allows a script to issue an account ban based on keywords. There's no reason the script can't display a warning in a way that's always seen 100% of the time. If you can blow up my screen every time some random person I don't even know gets a lockbox item, I'm pretty sure you can figure out how to display a warning.

    Maybe you ought to create a test account, turn off lockbox spam, and see if you get the warning, and then post the result on YouTube? It might help to restore customer confidence. Cryptic Community Team's current response has them looking like bloody muppets.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Romulan Praetorian Guard
    Original join date:January 2010
  • assimilatedktarassimilatedktar Member Posts: 1,708 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    Well, and I was just starting to be happy with Cryptic again, brought and old NWN and WoW-Buddy into the game with LoR and actually considered buying Zen again instead of saving my stipend. And then they manage to make a bigger warp core breach than the time when Atari was trying to get rid of them. I already warned my friend to not mention any EC spam he gets in the game and I most definitely won't spend any more money on rights of use in a game that can automatically take them away.

    I'm happy I don't have to work for Cryptic.
    FKA K-Tar, grumpy Klingon/El-Aurian hybrid. Now assimilated by PWE.
    Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
  • zeroalexandrazeroalexandra Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    All one has to consider regarding this issue any any future concerns about Cryptic or PWE. Both companies have F ratings from the BBB. Both companies have refused, out right, to even respond to a portion of complains submitted through the BBB.

    Just take that into consideration before you consider them deserving of any of your money.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • obsidiusrexobsidiusrex Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    All one has to consider regarding this issue any any future concerns about Cryptic or PWE. Both companies have F ratings from the BBB. Both companies have refused, out right, to even respond to a portion of complains submitted through the BBB.

    Just take that into consideration before you consider them deserving of any of your money.

    BBB ratings these days are almost analogous to Amazonbombings, something for which petulant gamers are infamous. IOW, they can't wholly be trusted.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    I don't care how long you've been playing. I only care about how you play.
    And remember to follow the rules.
  • kacenovakacenova Member Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited May 2013
    You know, I'm not really livid about falling victim to this by mistake. I do agree with the other users, there should be a visible warning - Nothing was notified and I thought I was banned for something else until I googled this issue.

    Submitted a ticket, and now need to wait and hope it gets cleared up. Other people got their accounts reinstated, so I'm not worried about mine, since it was an honest mistake. Now how long it will take before my account is reinstated is a good question. Lol. Hearing people range from a day to two-weeks.
  • voxinvictusvoxinvictus Member Posts: 261
    edited June 2013
    kacenova wrote: »
    You know, I'm not really livid about falling victim to this by mistake. I do agree with the other users, there should be a visible warning - Nothing was notified and I thought I was banned for something else until I googled this issue.

    Submitted a ticket, and now need to wait and hope it gets cleared up. Other people got their accounts reinstated, so I'm not worried about mine, since it was an honest mistake. Now how long it will take before my account is reinstated is a good question. Lol. Hearing people range from a day to two-weeks.

    I've got a fleetmate who's on day 8 and still waiting.
  • sirkoricsirkoric Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Sitting on day 4 myself,
    Waiting and hopeing to hear something some day.
  • john98837john98837 Member Posts: 761 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    sirkoric wrote: »
    Sitting on day 4 myself,
    Waiting and hopeing to hear something some day.
    I've got a fleetmate who's on day 8 and still waiting.

    Brandon if you want to pass along some feedback this right here is the biggest problem with this filter, and your companies customer service overall. This is a poorly conceived and implemented filter, that's bad enough, but it is made exponentially worse by the lack of customer service. I cannot think of a company I have done business with that has had worse customer service than PWE. You guys implement an auto ban filter and then have people waiting over a week for you to fix what you screwed up. PWE is a company that is making a fortune, as demonstrated by the recently posted financial reports, there is no excuse for not having a responsive customer service team. When someone contacts customer service, especially with an issue this serious, they should have a resolution within 24 hours or less, not left sitting waiting on some customer service rep to finally get around to replying to there ticket a week or two later.

    I sometimes feel bad for you Brandon, you and the community staff usually do an alright job, but the company you represent here on these forums leaves allot to be desired.
  • eatsmarteatsmart Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Is there really no way to put an exemption on this for characters that are obviously not bot-created? For example "character had over X accolade points earned, send for manual review by GM instead".

    Also, please see:
    http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

    12. One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.
  • notorycznynotoryczny Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    john98837 wrote: »
    PWE is a company that is making a fortune, as demonstrated by the recently posted financial reports, there is no excuse for not having a responsive customer service team

    Well, they already have your money, so there is no reason for them to have a responsive customer support :P

    eatsmart wrote: »
    Is there really no way to put an exemption on this for characters that are obviously not bot-created? For example "character had over X accolade points earned, send for manual review by GM instead".

    Also, please see:
    http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

    12. One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.

    PWE probably calculated that random bans will cost them less than upkeep of an "average five-year-old".
    By the way, neat idea with that accolade score check.


    On a serious note though - my recent experience with Mr. Banbot killed my trust into this game. I mean, I still can play it, I still can have fun, but it doesn't feel as my game anymore. Its like I'm borrowing server time instead using my own account. That feeling will probably go away (needs time for that), but as of now its distasteful how Cryptic had ninjaed in that kind of censorship. Or how failed the implementation of this idea is.Or the "quality" of customer support. Or the "working as intended" comment.
    May 2013, automatic permanent ban for mentioning gold-seller sites
    pwebranflakes: this system is currently in place and working the way it should.
    moradum: I got banned for saying "I started my day with cutting off 3 MM off of the bottom of my cabinet"
  • tilartatilarta Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    notoryczny wrote: »
    Well, they already have your money, so there is no reason for them to have a responsive customer support :P

    The question they should be asking themselves is, do they want to get more of your money? ;)

    A regular customer will buy things from C-Store.
    A Gold Account is paying a monthly sub fee.

    If the account is terminated, both those sources of income are terminated along with it.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
  • mavgeekrsamavgeekrsa Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Huh, seems like good material to talk about on a podcast.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    redshirtarmy.com - RedShirtArmy Podcast
    STO / Cryptic member since 2009 (mavgeek)
  • bpharmabpharma Member Posts: 2,022
    edited June 2013
    Maybe the next ask Cryptic too?

    I just hope Kotaku don't get wind of this, they'd have a field day!

    It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
    A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.

    Has damage got out of control?
    This is the last thing I will post.
  • cutter187cutter187 Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    While I am currently taking a break from this game, wind of this problem was caught over on the CO forums where I was linked to here. I have had my own ridiculous problems with PWE/Cryptic customer service and after reading about this problem I feel I can no longer support this company with my time or money. I have canceled my account and my brother may do the same. The only way corrupt companies like this learn, if they learn at all, is to stop giving them your money when they so clearly do not deserve it.
    __________________________________________________
    This is a signature.
  • voxinvictusvoxinvictus Member Posts: 261
    edited June 2013
    john98837 wrote: »
    I cannot think of a company I have done business with that has had worse customer service than PWE.

    Square Enix had similarly terrible customer service for the first 2-3 years of Final Fantasy XIs career. They would double bill people, those people would dispute the second charge with their credit card company, and then S-E would ban the account.

    Those that waited patiently for S-E to resolve the double billing in many cases never got a refund. The money was just gone, and S-E never felt the need to explain or defend their screwed up billing system, insisting that customers were wrong to object when they would be billed on the 27th of one month and then the 1st of the next month (3-4 days later).

    Eventually they got their act straightened out, but only when they started seeing a drop in paid accounts.

    PWE seems tied. They at least have some one who is reading and sometimes responding to customer issues, which S-E never had, but whoever is making the decisions to implement automated ban systems and such is totally clueless or outright hostile to the customer.

    When Blizzard proposed something similarly stupid (real names required to post on their web forum), they were also initially stubborn. In a short period of time they realized what a mistake they were making and backed off.

    We're still waiting to see if some one at PWE/Cryptic grasps what a hostile move this is to their customers and corrects it, or if they double down. It's hard to believe that they'd make a supposedly large investment to breath new life into STO, and then sabotage their own efforts in such a preventable way.

    Probably the feedback mechanism to the bean counters is very sloppy, since their revenue isn't really based on subscriptions, and they'd already sold a ton of LoR related stuff prior to this snafu.

    By the time some one realizes something is wrong, a lot of players may have just moved on, either willingly or unwillingly.
  • shroommageshroommage Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    bpharma wrote: »
    Maybe the next ask Cryptic too?

    I just hope Kotaku don't get wind of this, they'd have a field day!

    If you ask me, some bad publicity is just what the doctor ordered.
  • sirkoricsirkoric Member Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Well at 7 days with no response from Support yet,
  • tilartatilarta Member Posts: 1,801 Arc User
    edited June 2013
    Is anyone counting the number of players we are loosing due to this "innovation"?

    I'd like to know those figures.

    Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
    Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad :'(
This discussion has been closed.