@kapla1755 and @majortiraomega: One extra thing to consider for your information is if you think this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6nnusE6eT4&feature=youtu.be&hd=1
is wrong and broken and you do not believe borticuscryptic in this post. Then you should know that the same mechanic that causes willpower and knockback resistance to "fail", also allows Lunge and Pounce to knockback an enemy unconditionally for 2 seconds. EVERYTIME! The same as the sword in the video. The pulsewave can actually be tweaked to do just about the same. So the reason why most people are running the Lunge+Pulsewave method, is the same reason why the sword is so attractive. It gives you a solid 2 to 4 seconds to kill your opponent with reduced risk. But we should keep in mind that according to borticuscryptic this is all Working as Designed (WAD). It is up to you to makeup your own mind on this.
I personally find it funny fighting people with Lunge+Pulsewave method. I think it is a good strategy for most Tactical Officers to use the Lunge+Pulswave method at this stage. It is a hoot trying to beat it using the Fire Team Kit and a compression pistol.
The Simple way of doing the Lunge+Pulsewave method is to use: Strike Team, Battle Strategies, Target Optics, Ambush, get in range, Fire on My Mark, Lunge, and then Jam the Secondary on the pulsewave. You should have fairly great results against 95% of the people you fight.
This is a rather bad comparison you made there between lunge and the broken sword chain-knockback and sounds like a justification to use the broken swords.
Chain knockback and swords.. Most of the people using a sword are NOT going for a single knockback, they are doing it for the CHAIN-KNOCKBACK against a wall. The victims hotbar stays greyed out and can't do anything at all while the sword user has all the time of the world to finish its victim no matter if it takes 5 or 35 hits.
THAT is NOT how swords or knockbacks have been working in the past years in this game and since they never mentioned it in the patch notes either it seems to be obviously broken in some way and you know that. And i don't think borticus example about kb's was really saying "melee-chainknockback are WAD", maybe we need some clarification from him.
Lunge/Pounce and the non-chained knockbacks..
Lunge (and pounce) on the other hand give you a single knockback, if you manage to use that small time window for a kill with that one knockback - awesome - but often enough the target survives and may get a hypo in and start to fight back.
Thats pretty much how knockbacks have always been in this game since launch and if anything we need to get telekinesis fixed to be useful again, cause it used to do the exact same thing for the years before willpower was introduced.
Btw willpower.. If we go by what borticus said about resistances i believe willpower has always been working to good actually as it has made quiet a bunch of kit-powers totally useless and that can't be a good thing. Examples: science-kit stasis & gas, tactical-kit stun nade, stun-pistol secondary stun, lobi-store whip stun, telekinesis. Gladly a lot of that seems to be fixed on tribble atm, to bad they broke other stuff on tribble.
IMO:As long as everyone has access to the same resources and information then everything is equal. I really find it hilarious when the PVP community tries to "police" itself.
People want enjoyable PvP.
Just look at space and the attempts to run no-bs tournaments, even if this concept seems totally alien to you and your fleet, its pretty obvious that the majority of pvp players prefer pvp were the opponents have a chance to fight back and some gameplay happens.
In the end every fleet needs to make their own definition how much fairplay they want and where you draw the line what fairplay is. We at FS have some rather clear definition there, none of us carries 30 copies of the same kit for the extreme cooldowns circumvention that you described in a guide on this forum, we had banned the use of the stasis pistol while it had the weapon-malfunction bug and we are also discouraging the use of swords for its chain-knockback atm cause its obviously broken.
I have seen great pvpers use the operative kit and not cloak a single time, and use it effectively... what I am saying though, is people like you who rely on nothing but ganking to compensate for skill are using the cheapest of tactics and border line exploit. And yes, we were in a premade together and everyone in the premade agreed afterwards, that you are not the best sci to have in a team, as you lacked the skill to heal others as effectively as you should have been able to. You were playing more so as a solo player.
When fighting premade teams from a PUG team, if you oneshot 1-2 of their team AND get away with it, that's a lot of skill on your part. And the premade vs premade game you are talking about you were on the opposing team fighting the team I was. We didn't lose because I couldn't heal fast enough, we lost because the person who organized the match put 5 of the 6 tactical officers one team. A battle with 2 science, 3 engineers, and 1 tactical against 5 tactical and 1 engineer officers is already a loss. Especially when 3 of the players my team were fighting were in the same fleet and very used to fighting with eachother.
The match I was actually talking about was several assault matches. I did heal all of you when in range (and most of you remains within range), but you cats seem to forget that Bajorans can't run up walls like cats can to sustain healing line of sight. It's like using evasive maneuvers in space with an escort shooting 30km away from the healer. You can't expect them to follow you. And your "everyone agreed I lacked skill" comment is obviously false. I have been asked to run my science officer in premades by those players since then. If "everyone agreed" that clearly wouldn't have happened.
When fighting premade teams from a PUG team, if you oneshot 1-2 of their team AND get away with it, that's a lot of skill on your part. And the premade vs premade game you are talking about you were on the opposing team fighting the team I was. We didn't lose because I couldn't heal fast enough, we lost because the person who organized the match put 5 of the 6 tactical officers one team. A battle with 2 science, 3 engineers, and 1 tactical against 5 tactical and 1 engineer officers is already a loss. Especially when 3 of the players my team were fighting were in the same fleet and very used to fighting with eachother.
The match I was actually talking about was several assault matches. I did heal all of you when in range (and most of you remains within range), but you cats seem to forget that Bajorans can't run up walls like cats can to sustain healing line of sight. It's like using evasive maneuvers in space with an escort shooting 30km away from the healer. You can't expect them to follow you. And your "everyone agreed I lacked skill" comment is obviously false. I have been asked to run my science officer in premades by those players since then. If "everyone agreed" that clearly wouldn't have happened.
While it's not as easy as cats.. it's still doable.
When fighting premade teams from a PUG team, if you oneshot 1-2 of their team AND get away with it, that's a lot of skill on your part. And the premade vs premade game you are talking about you were on the opposing team fighting the team I was. We didn't lose because I couldn't heal fast enough, we lost because the person who organized the match put 5 of the 6 tactical officers one team. A battle with 2 science, 3 engineers, and 1 tactical against 5 tactical and 1 engineer officers is already a loss. Especially when 3 of the players my team were fighting were in the same fleet and very used to fighting with eachother.
The match I was actually talking about was several assault matches. I did heal all of you when in range (and most of you remains within range), but you cats seem to forget that Bajorans can't run up walls like cats can to sustain healing line of sight. It's like using evasive maneuvers in space with an escort shooting 30km away from the healer. You can't expect them to follow you. And your "everyone agreed I lacked skill" comment is obviously false. I have been asked to run my science officer in premades by those players since then. If "everyone agreed" that clearly wouldn't have happened.
Actually I was referring to the assault matches and not the premade battle we had, however, since you brought that match up, Let me remind you that if it would have been set up as you said, which it wasn't, you guys would have had the upper hand seeing as you would have had healing powers against a group of nothing but tac's who have no healing powers at all.. one simple tac who was receiving heals could have taken the whole team. You must have forgotten that I assisted in the set up of those matches though and it was actually a match of 4 tacs an engineer and a sci (who is also not the best but, did a great job still) vs 2 scis, 2 engineers, and 2 tacs.
And in one match we were down a guy (1 tac) and still pulled off a win by 12 points.
I can tell you why you guys lost. You lost because you weren't coordinating well enough. When I cycled through my targets, you were all on different targets... which means that you are not focusing your damage which means that you are less likely to kill anyone. If I remember correctly in all of those matches I pretty much self healed myself with the occasional heal here or there and put out most of the damage from my team. There was no shield tanking or shield healing from the engineers, and you had one engineer who ran nothing but the enemy neutralization kit and placed mines and a bomb in front of the door while hiding in the corner on the outside of the door... which rarely killed anyone as we didn't really play at the door much. This means he was putting out almost no damage and leaving the rest of his team to take more damage and that reflected at the end game. I also noticed that you guys weren't coordinating buffs all that well. At one point I noticed that 2 tac init were up at the same time.. which is a big no no in any team. The tacs were also not using their battle strategies correctly and had ill timed suppressing fire. Your engineers were not using weapon malfunction, which would have been perfect against tacs as it takes away our power to shoot or sacrifice our power to heal. And from you sci's, I rarely ever saw any dampening fields to reduce incoming damage.
These are the reasons you lost, Not because it was a mismatched team. You guys just needed to work on more skilled usage of buffs and debuffs and have more team work. Its not easy working as a team when you normally run with pugs, as pugs almost never work together, and I realize that as I mostly run with pugs... so when I'm in a team it occasionally gets hard for me to adjust. It normally takes me at least one sometimes two matches. Then when I switch back over to pugs I forget that they are most likely not going to work together and start expecting support, I'm not going to get. I am sure that's mostly what was going on in those premades and same with the assault.
The problems there were simple, you did more self healing and didn't use the dampening field as much as you should have, which is fine.. We still won because it was only against FDC/KIG. ;P jk. But yeah...
I'm not perfect in pvp by far, which I am sure that's how this post is making my thinking seem, and its hard for me to realize what I'm doing wrong so I actually LOVE for ppl to call me out on my mistakes so, if you see me in pvp and see that you can improve my game, please... by all means, call me out on it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
Actually I was referring to the assault matches and not the premade battle we had, however, since you brought that match up, Let me remind you that if it would have been set up as you said, which it wasn't, you guys would have had the upper hand seeing as you would have had healing powers against a group of nothing but tac's who have no healing powers at all.. one simple tac who was receiving heals could have taken the whole team. You must have forgotten that I assisted in the set up of those matches though and it was actually a match of 4 tacs an engineer and a sci (who is also not the best but, did a great job still) vs 2 scis, 2 engineers, and 2 tacs.
And in one match we were down a guy (1 tac) and still pulled off a win by 12 points.
I can tell you why you guys lost. You lost because you weren't coordinating well enough. When I cycled through my targets, you were all on different targets... which means that you are not focusing your damage which means that you are less likely to kill anyone. If I remember correctly in all of those matches I pretty much self healed myself with the occasional heal here or there and put out most of the damage from my team. There was no shield tanking or shield healing from the engineers, and you had one engineer who ran nothing but the enemy neutralization kit and placed mines and a bomb in front of the door while hiding in the corner on the outside of the door... which rarely killed anyone as we didn't really play at the door much. This means he was putting out almost no damage and leaving the rest of his team to take more damage and that reflected at the end game. I also noticed that you guys weren't coordinating buffs all that well. At one point I noticed that 2 tac init were up at the same time.. which is a big no no in any team. The tacs were also not using their battle strategies correctly and had ill timed suppressing fire. Your engineers were not using weapon malfunction, which would have been perfect against tacs as it takes away our power to shoot or sacrifice our power to heal. And from you sci's, I rarely ever saw any dampening fields to reduce incoming damage.
These are the reasons you lost, Not because it was a mismatched team. You guys just needed to work on more skilled usage of buffs and debuffs and have more team work. Its not easy working as a team when you normally run with pugs, as pugs almost never work together, and I realize that as I mostly run with pugs... so when I'm in a team it occasionally gets hard for me to adjust. It normally takes me at least one sometimes two matches. Then when I switch back over to pugs I forget that they are most likely not going to work together and start expecting support, I'm not going to get. I am sure that's mostly what was going on in those premades and same with the assault.
The problems there were simple, you did more self healing and didn't use the dampening field as much as you should have, which is fine.. We still won because it was only against FDC/KIG. ;P jk. But yeah...
I'm not perfect in pvp by far, which I am sure that's how this post is making my thinking seem, and its hard for me to realize what I'm doing wrong so I actually LOVE for ppl to call me out on my mistakes so, if you see me in pvp and see that you can improve my game, please... by all means, call me out on it.
Somehow I have a feeling you are talking about an entirely different premade vs premade. There was no FDC/KIG members in the match at all. The only premade vs premade I was in recently was a 4 tac/1 eng vs 2 sci/3 eng/1 tac. You, 3 FES members, and 2 others were on one team and I, one Hammer Squadron, and 4 LFT fleet members where on the other team. And your team was not down one player, it was our team that someone had to leave. I had noted in match chat right before it started that such a match was going to be very onesided, but we stuck with it. I didn't really care, the match was just for fun. I did very little self healing in that match. The only times I needed to self heal was when your team would drop super buffed cloaknades in the far back of the corridor. And yes, I could have run up to drop damper fields, but with your constant jumping to cover I would have needed to switch to shooter mode. During that time it would have been impossible to keybind heal the team. That's enough on this long topic here on the forums though, the match has long since ended. And all we are doing right now is giving the 20+ space PvPers reading this thread a good long laugh at our expense.
Cats are ugly, hairy furballs that should never been invented
If i am gonna play a game i am not gonna look at a cat and be like ohhh nice, no im gonna make a HOT charactor that i can take Screenshots with because it will just make my screenshots look more awwsome cuz ill be like "Hmmm look at that sexy chick "
Cats are ugly, hairy furballs that should never been invented
If i am gonna play a game i am not gonna look at a cat and be like ohhh nice, no im gonna make a HOT charactor that i can take Screenshots with because it will just make my screenshots look more awwsome cuz ill be like "Hmmm look at that sexy chick "
Cats are ugly, hairy furballs that should never been invented
If i am gonna play a game i am not gonna look at a cat and be like ohhh nice, no im gonna make a HOT charactor that i can take Screenshots with because it will just make my screenshots look more awwsome cuz ill be like "Hmmm look at that sexy chick "
Just make a Female Cat and give it 7 of 9 Borg parts to make it look like a Liberated Borg.
You think that your beta test was bad?
Think about this: American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
5 man premades ...with the predictable 3 tactical officer with 2 science officers?
using teamspeak to coordinate your three tactical officers to super buff at the same time. No other... PvP fleet uses those tactics, it's not skillful or enjoyable for the other team.
team ducks behind walls/corners
So what else are you complaining about? I mean thats what 99.99% of PvP'ers DO! Feel free to meet us in a pre-made vs pre-made, but you and FS always decline to do so.
Where's MT? I bet even the Pandas use TS!!!! ZOMG NOT TS!!!!!!!
So what else are you complaining about? I mean thats what 99.99% of PvP'ers DO! Feel free to meet us in a pre-made vs pre-made, but you and FS always decline to do so.
Where's MT? I bet even the Pandas use TS!!!! ZOMG NOT TS!!!!!!!
Besides, I wasn't using TS last night to kill 2 scis(one of which was tira) and a tac, vs 2 tacs (Sutherland and I). There is no way we should have won that match and we creamed you guys. lol. You had us out numbered and was trying to run the virus on us. lol.
Next, going into PvP will be hax too. lol
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
This is a rather bad comparison you made there between lunge and the broken sword chain-knockback and sounds like a justification to use the broken swords.
Chain knockback and swords.. Most of the people using a sword are NOT going for a single knockback, they are doing it for the CHAIN-KNOCKBACK against a wall. The victims hotbar stays greyed out and can't do anything at all while the sword user has all the time of the world to finish its victim no matter if it takes 5 or 35 hits.
THAT is NOT how swords or knockbacks have been working in the past years in this game and since they never mentioned it in the patch notes either it seems to be obviously broken in some way and you know that. And i don't think borticus example about kb's was really saying "melee-chainknockback are WAD", maybe we need some clarification from him.
Lunge/Pounce and the non-chained knockbacks..
Lunge (and pounce) on the other hand give you a single knockback, if you manage to use that small time window for a kill with that one knockback - awesome - but often enough the target survives and may get a hypo in and start to fight back.
Thats pretty much how knockbacks have always been in this game since launch and if anything we need to get telekinesis fixed to be useful again, cause it used to do the exact same thing for the years before willpower was introduced.
On August 23, 2012 the patch to melee, changed all melee damage attacks. One of the changes were the alteration of how knockback from melee attacks are evaluated. You can observe this from pounce. Any melee attack that has a chance to knockback will knockback a 100% of the time and completely ignore knockback resistance. Pounce has a 80% chance to knockback on the tooltip but instead it knocksback a 100% of the time. The sword's secondary hit always had a knockback on it. In fact it has always been a 100% knockback. The combination hit from Bat'leth's has and always has had a 100% knockback. But in the past these knockbacks would evaluate the knockback resistance and if it was resisted the knockback would become a repel. This use to work in the favor of those using Pulsewaves since it kept you in range of maximum damage to pulsewaves but pushed the sword wielder out of sword range.
Lunge, Pounce and other melee Weapons have a knockback that cannot be resisted as they were before August 23, 2012. If you repeat any of these hits they will continuously knockback. If two people lunge back to back on the same target the target will experience a chain knockback. So if the sword's knockback that cannot be resisted is wrong then the lunge can accomplish the exact same thing. There is nothing that prevents Lunge from being used in a chain knockback. So if you are ok with Lunge and not with the Sword's knockback then it is very much the same as saying that you are ok with a little bit of exploiting but not a lot of exploiting. Then again Borticus had full access to the video showing the sword chain knockback and it was the very first item in the write up he replied to. So when he wrote his reply he obviously was including the sword knockback in his reference.
Before LoR, the Pulsewave's secondary 66% chance to knockback was also ignoring knockback resistance. This allowed a lunge+pulsewave combination to result in a chain knockback. But now weapon's knockback can be resisted in LoR. So it is clear that the developers are changing the knockback or evaluations of knockback, as Borticus suggested they would do, if they felt it should be different.
What I am gathering from your reply is that you would like to keep the lunge guaranteed knockback that can also be used in a chain knockback but remove the knockback from the sword. If that is what you would like then convince cryptic to code it in.
In the end the developers determine how the game plays and what receives focus. Some features like knockback resistance disappearing might be a desired effect to establish an easier play-style for some players. Or it might be a change to their mechanics that alters how things work and might require a balance pass at a later stage. Whatever the reason is, only the developers can determine how these things work. At best we can provide feedback. But it is clear that Cryptic rarely appreciates PvPers feedback. What I would like to see, and I believe this to be of more importance is the implementation of Six Sigma within Cryptic. http://www.sixsigmaonline.org/index.html
Back to my original response. Screaming to other players that they are committing bloody murder does nothing useful and quite often you are found to use something that another "self proclaimed police officer" thinks is broken. Or even worse you are found to break your own rules and thereby becoming a hypocrite.
Just look at space and the attempts to run no-bs tournaments, even if this concept seems totally alien to you and your fleet, its pretty obvious that the majority of pvp players prefer pvp were the opponents have a chance to fight back and some gameplay happens.
Do you even realize that the attempts for a no-bs tournament has been going on for a long time? Several teams don't even agree on the current no-bs rules. As stated before, many people do not agree on how the game should work. But why are they even "involved" in this? In my opinion it is because of Cryptic's neglect of PvP features.
Furthermore, how many players cannot participate in the tournament because their builds violate the rules? You are assuming it is the majority of space PvPers involved in these tournaments. Currently these tournaments have about 6 to 9 teams participating. That is about 45 players participating in a Space PvP Tournament. Do you really think there are only 45 players PvPing in space combined, all the time? In the end the no-bs tournaments is a great step forward, but don't place it on some high pedestal. It is an exclusive tournament not inclusive. For now it works, but it hopefully would lead to something bigger and better. Other PvP games have massive tournament setups that lasts weeks. And those allow any player to participate as long as they can find a team that suits them.
I agree to some degree with pug, BUT if there are certain items that are not working as intended or broken and YOU KNOW IT because the item/power is working differently as it should, then KNOWING the FRAGILE status of Ground PvP in this game, WHY USE IT?.
Just WHY? It's this new broken item/mechanic giving you the EDGE over players? It's giving you too much edge to just play with 1 hand? It's fun? What about the other side of the equation, is fun for them?
MrKollins this response is not just directed at you but at all of us.
I would like to think that the STO PvP Players could affect the game format in a positive way. But how many times have we now seen, where PvPers give input about some feature, broken or new, and they get completely ignored. The Developers are the only ones that can provide a meaningful positive input into PvP. Ground PVP has been fragile for quite some time. In that same breath so has space PvP. If I really thought that some action of mine could improve PvP then I would really strive for such results. But I am just not that important in PvP. Especially Ground PvP. The only role I have hoped to play is to make sure everyone has a good chance at knowing what I know.
The issue here is that we hardly look at cryptic anymore for the issue in ground PvP. We have now had to take a gentle glove approach whenever we work with Cryptic because they might just ignore us again. I am all for a polite conversation with developers but we are the customers playing their game. If we are not happy with the game then we can either voice our complaints and if nothing else happens we could stop supporting Cryptic's product. There are several ways to do so: Completely leave the game, or stop buying zen. If that doesn't get their attention then we are just not that important to the game and that is fine too.
But instead we have resorted to harassing ("verbally") other players for their play-style. It appears to be effective to us, because it is the one area, we as players, are having some effect on PvP. But this only results in frustration since we really cannot enforce our wills and wants on another game player. It is not much different from telling someone else that they should believe in the same religion as you do, because "you" are "right". We are just playing this game and any harassment to change how another player plays this game is sad and pathetic because it involves a bias interpretation of how "you" would like things to be like. We are not in a position to be democratic. In the end Cryptic will do what it wants. Cryptic might take some of our democratically derived inputs but Cryptic exercises its own prerogative when implementing features.
In my opinions this player harassment has been fostered by Cryptic. Cryptic's method of communication and style of practice is best suited when players are not harassing them directly. Instead; us focusing on other players allows them to "get away with murder". This suits cryptic even further when it gets to an area of the game where a very small portion of the game players participate. And in the process players from other areas of the game look at the PvP concept as broken and unfriendly. Kirk captains that enter PvP in space get a verbal lashing instead of a helping hand. Players that enter ground combat get a verbal beating when they seek higher ground because that is a broken mechanic according to some. Even though in other games the technique is almost always to find a high vantage point to fight from. That doesn't mean that these techniques are correct or not unfair but we have become a community where our harassing("verbally") of other players are now effectively part of our game play. In my opinion it would be nice if zone chat was disabled in PvP zones.
We have to consider that the lead developers have no interest in PvP and don't PvP. They have clearly expressed that it wouldn't be a problem for them to remove PvP from Star Trek Online. They have promised PvP improvements for years. They have expressed that if a PvP reputation system is introduced that it probably would not require everyone to PvP. They have also expressed that if sector control is implemented that it most likely won't be completely based on PvP and that we probably will see very little impact from PvP in sector control. We really only see some changes related to PvP when it causes an embarrassment to PWE. To really save PvP we will need developer PvP changes. No amount of PvP Player desire will change the game.
P. S. The latest big hit setup on ground is as follows. Use the Operative kit with the melee doffs. Start with Strike Team, Battle Strategies, Target Optics and Fire on My Mark. Start shooting your opponents shields down. When their shields are just about gone load Ambush and Lunge for full effect. If they are not dead just hit the secondary on your weapon and it should finish them. They won't be able to use a hypo until your weapon's hit is complete. It is useful to make sure they don't have much shields before you start your Lunge since the full damage from the Lunge will hit their armor. Even without a critical hit the Lunge is still a 600+ hit through 65% resistance. Furthermore without the shields your weapon's damage will be able to guarantee that you get a full armor damage after the Lunge. This combination will start your full armor damage with a guaranteed knockback preventing them from responding with a hypo until you are done with your sequence.
I respectfully disagree with you Pug, while Cryptic has said that they can remove PvP from the game resulting in a little player base loss I don't believe that is what they really want for their game. No MMO is complete without a Good PvP System.
I do believe that Cryptic wants a good PvP for their MMO, but we aren't there yet, the game is slowly developing and first things come first, like factions and keeping the large PvE player base happy.
The bug fixes for PvP may take a while, but if we ask for them they will deliver.
Lunge, Pounce and other melee Weapons have a knockback that cannot be resisted as they were before August 23, 2012. If you repeat any of these hits they will continuously knockback. If two people lunge back to back on the same target the target will experience a chain knockback. So if the sword's knockback that cannot be resisted is wrong then the lunge can accomplish the exact same thing.
The 23th August 2012 patch did not do that, its not mentioned in the patch notes and since i have a video of some sword melee duel i actually know that this bug was not present in 2012/09 either. Got no facts to back your story up so you play a little guessing game here when it entered the game eh?
There is nothing that prevents Lunge from being used in a chain knockback. So if you are ok with Lunge and not with the Sword's knockback then it is very much the same as saying that you are ok with a little bit of exploiting but not a lot of exploiting.
Yes there is something that prevents pounce and lunge from beeing used in that way.. the cooldown. You still seem to have an issue understanding what the real issue with the sword chainknockback is, im gonna highlight it for you:
ONE player using lunge (or pounce) results in ONE knockback caused by that, thats perfectly fine.
ONE player using a sword all by himself pressing repeatedly the button 2 results in UNLIMITED chain knockback. You could even use a MK 1 sword here, as it doesn't matter if it takes you 5, 10 or 10000 hits to finish the victim since your victim is stunned nonstop forever.
So YOU bring up some hypothetical example of multiple players using lunge in a coordinated & timed team effort to achieve the same thing ONE sword user can do.... so thats your justification to use swords.. seriously? lol.
Then again Borticus had full access to the video showing the sword chain knockback and it was the very first item in the write up he replied to. So when he wrote his reply he obviously was including the sword knockback in his reference.
He didn't seem to reply to your videos directly item by item but made an "example" there. He also pointed out that you seem to misunderstand how resistances work and in your cold-hold video its pretty clear that you really seem to misunderstood how it works.
What I am gathering from your reply is that you would like to keep the lunge guaranteed knockback that can also be used in a chain knockback but remove the knockback from the sword. If that is what you would like then convince cryptic to code it in.
What i am gathering from your reply is that you are still comparing apples and oranges in an attempt to justify your use of the broken swords chain knockback.
One player pressing 22222222222222222222 and causing 20 knockbacks back to back on a victim thats never able to stand up again is something totally different then a theoretical coordinated teamplay attack with multiple players trying to mimic the same with abilities that have cooldowns like lunge or pounce.
Your example is rarely ever happening in games and in 2on1, Xon1 situations the knockback isn't really the deciding factor anyway.
P. S. The latest big hit setup on ground is as follows. Use the Operative kit with the melee doffs. Start with Strike Team, Battle Strategies, Target Optics and Fire on My Mark. Start shooting your opponents shields down. When their shields are just about gone load Ambush and Lunge for full effect. If they are not dead just hit the secondary on your weapon and it should finish them. They won't be able to use a hypo until your weapon's hit is complete.[...]
Killing an opponent with one knockback (as you describe here) is a show of good timing/playing skill and not new at all, its been like that forever and i'd even say thats what knockbacks are made for, without em we'd play HealTankOnline. Its also not as guaranteed to lead to a win as you make it sound here, just play it if you think its so awesome.
Its also much more clean then relying on the ambush-not-consumed-on-use-of-nades coupled with the no-impact-circle-for-victims-when-throwing-nades-cloaked "feature" that you guys seem to be so fond off (also known as cloak-nading).
The 23th August 2012 patch did not do that, its not mentioned in the patch notes and since i have a video of some sword melee duel i actually know that this bug was not present in 2012/09 either. Got no facts to back your story up so you play a little guessing game here when it entered the game eh?
Yes there is something that prevents pounce and lunge from beeing used in that way.. the cooldown. You still seem to have an issue understanding what the real issue with the sword chainknockback is, im gonna highlight it for you:
ONE player using lunge (or pounce) results in ONE knockback caused by that, thats perfectly fine.
ONE player using a sword all by himself pressing repeatedly the button 2 results in UNLIMITED chain knockback. You could even use a MK 1 sword here, as it doesn't matter if it takes you 5, 10 or 10000 hits to finish the victim since your victim is stunned nonstop forever.
So YOU bring up some hypothetical example of multiple players using lunge in a coordinated & timed team effort to achieve the same thing ONE sword user can do.... so thats your justification to use swords.. seriously? lol.
He didn't seem to reply to your videos directly item by item but made an "example" there. He also pointed out that you seem to misunderstand how resistances work and in your cold-hold video its pretty clear that you really seem to misunderstood how it works.
What i am gathering from your reply is that you are still comparing apples and oranges in an attempt to justify your use of the broken swords chain knockback.
One player pressing 22222222222222222222 and causing 20 knockbacks back to back on a victim thats never able to stand up again is something totally different then a theoretical coordinated teamplay attack with multiple players trying to mimic the same with abilities that have cooldowns like lunge or pounce.
Your example is rarely ever happening in games and in 2on1, Xon1 situations the knockback isn't really the deciding factor anyway.
Killing an opponent with one knockback (as you describe here) is a show of good timing/playing skill and not new at all, its been like that forever and i'd even say thats what knockbacks are made for, without em we'd play HealTankOnline. Its also not as guaranteed to lead to a win as you make it sound here, just play it if you think its so awesome.
Its also much more clean then relying on the ambush-not-consumed-on-use-of-nades coupled with the no-impact-circle-for-victims-when-throwing-nades-cloaked "feature" that you guys seem to be so fond off (also known as cloak-nading).
Nice wall-of-text btw pug. GG.
not going to quote each lil thing I am addressing or make it in any order... I am sure you'll figure it out.
Firstly, Even if borticus was referring to a general example and not a specific example... uhm, lets face it... even the resistances are screwed up and DO NOT work "as intended". Willpower gives absolutely no real resistance. its a joke. straight up. The only thing I have ever seen it resist against is the cane and that's if you have it turned to max. lol.
Next, you are ok with the sword KB but... what about the kb in which you can use tac init with a pulse wave with a kb buff and do a lunge, arc, pounce, arc, lunge, arc, pounce? That pretty much does the same as the sword but kills much faster... and unfortunately I first learned about that exploit from FS using it on me when I was only a young noob. So, basically what you're doing is trying to sound innocent with your devils tail sticking out... lol. Did I mention this requires only 1 player?
Also, when pug mentioned your lunge kill he mentioned shooting the shield down but didn't really point out that it was a 1 shot hit to take down the shields first with the secondary with a lunge behind it. I don't really call that skill seeing as you also have the cloak to get a surprise attack and a flank. but of course you were going to mention that right after you withdrew your statement of how skilled it was... right? I just know you were, because you cant be that dim.
Also when pug mentioned the above... I don't think he said NEW anywhere in his post statement. He just said that it was the latest strategy, which isn't really true either.. its just FS' latest strategy...
Now, I'm finished attacking your nice wall of text. gg.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
The problem with PvP is that there only one or two ways that people can win and I'm sad to say that a lot of them involve some tactic that can be seen as cheap.
A lot of Klingon tactics involve decloaking, using photonic shockwave to disable and alpha striking a cruiser to which the cruiser can do nothing in return. This is a bit sad when you consider the size of a cruiser compared to a tiny BoP. Its also somewhat inaccurate from the role of the BoP in Star Trek in general.
I understand why people get so upset, to win in a fair fight is great but to win through unhanded tactics and game mechanics that another player cannot do anything to defend against... well its seen as cheap and until this changes... its always going to be like this.
Firstly, Even if borticus was referring to a general example and not a specific example... uhm, lets face it... even the resistances are screwed up and DO NOT work "as intended". Willpower gives absolutely no real resistance. its a joke. straight up. The only thing I have ever seen it resist against is the cane and that's if you have it turned to max. lol.
Willpower should shorten stun's not turn kit abilities or weapons completely off, it got a well deserved change in my opinon. Finaly science-kit stasis & gas, tactical-kit stun nade, stun-pistol secondary stun, lobi-store whip stun aren't totally useless anymore. I like what the devs did there.
what about the kb in which you can use tac init with a pulse wave with a kb buff and do a lunge, arc, pounce, arc, lunge, arc, pounce? That pretty much does the same as the sword but kills much faster... and unfortunately I first learned about that exploit from FS using it on me when I was only a young noob. So, basically what you're doing is trying to sound innocent with your devils tail sticking out... lol. Did I mention this requires only 1 player?
Maybe you should have spend a couple minutes more researching that because its not working like that.
a) Your ability rotation makes no sense
Lunge an pounce share a cooldown.
Ability cooldown is 12 seconds; Shared cooldown is 6 seconds. (since February 28, 2013)
Tac ini shortens the ability cooldown to 6s, its not touching the shared one.
Whats the point of doing "lunge, arc, pounce, arc, lunge, arc, pounce" if you don't even need pounce since both abilities are up the very same second with tac ini? You'd actually gimp yourself there as lunge deals more dmg.
b) Your rotation timing won't work.
Average duration my hotbar stays greyed on a lunge or shotgun kb seems to be around 1,7-2s . With your lunge,arc,pounce rotation you have a 2s gap after the second ability of your rotation already.
c) Shotgun KB has a 66% chance
Your whole chain-kb thing (assuming you'd work a rotation out that actually works) fails already with your magic shotgun, cause mine ain't knocking all the time
Also, when pug mentioned your lunge kill he mentioned shooting the shield down but didn't really point out that it was a 1 shot hit to take down the shields first with the secondary with a lunge behind it. I don't really call that skill seeing as you also have the cloak to get a surprise attack and a flank. but of course you were going to mention that right after you withdrew your statement of how skilled it was... right? I just know you were, because you cant be that dim.
Even you should be able to diffentiate between timing & using multiple abilities to defeat an opponent vs playing like a monkey by clicking 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 with a sword, its pretty obvious which of the two is a bug.
And yes i consider using a combination of different abilities at the right moment in the right order indeed as skilled playing in a RPG.. while pressing one button nonstop clearly requires close to zero playing skill.
Also when pug mentioned the above... I don't think he said NEW anywhere in his post statement. He just said that it was the latest strategy, which isn't really true either.. its just FS' latest strategy...
Now, I'm finished attacking your nice wall of text. gg.
Nice try. I'll give you credit for the valiant effort dreaming that combo up at least.
You should know better then trying to defend this spam-one-button-chainlock stun bug tho.
Willpower should shorten stun's not turn kit abilities or weapons completely off, it got a well deserved change in my opinon. Finaly science-kit stasis & gas, tactical-kit stun nade, stun-pistol secondary stun, lobi-store whip stun aren't totally useless anymore. I like what the devs did there.
No im not.
It used to had an immunity that worked like the rifle butt kb's.
Maybe you should have spend a couple minutes more researching that because its not working like that.
a) Your ability rotation makes no sense
Lunge an pounce share a cooldown.
Ability cooldown is 12 seconds; Shared cooldown is 6 seconds. (since February 28, 2013)
Tac ini shortens the ability cooldown to 6s, its not touching the shared one.
Whats the point of doing "lunge, arc, pounce, arc, lunge, arc, pounce" if you don't even need pounce since both abilities are up the very same second with tac ini? You'd actually gimp yourself there as lunge deals more dmg.
b) Your rotation timing won't work.
Average duration my hotbar stays greyed on a lunge or shotgun kb seems to be around 1,7-2s . With your lunge,arc,pounce rotation you have a 2s gap after the second ability of your rotation already.
c) Shotgun KB has a 66% chance
Your whole chain-kb thing (assuming you'd work a rotation out that actually works) fails already with your magic shotgun, cause mine ain't knocking all the time
Even you should be able to diffentiate between timing & using multiple abilities to defeat an opponent vs playing like a monkey by clicking 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 with a sword, its pretty obvious which of the two is a bug.
And yes i consider using a combination of different abilities at the right moment in the right order indeed as skilled playing in a RPG.. while pressing one button nonstop clearly requires close to zero playing skill.
Nice try. I'll give you credit for the valiant effort dreaming that combo up at least.
You should know better then trying to defend this spam-one-button-chainlock stun bug tho.
Before I get to the KB thing I want to point out that willpower effectively does not reduce any hold, root, placate, etc etc etc other than the cane, the way it should. Therefore it is broken.
You were right, and I was wrong when it came to the 6 second shared cool down. However... you are still just a little wrong in your math. You forgot to add that it takes 2.5 seconds to actually stand back up and your tray to be working. That leaves the attacker with a 3.5 second cool down on the second lunge and not a 6 second cool down for the next tray lock. Then you are looking at adding 1.25 seconds on to that which ends up being a max of 4.75 seconds to avoid the next kb.. and that's if you don't get a kb with your arc. First let me explain how the KB with the arc works. You can NEVER get a kb with the arc while the opponent is starting to stand up. it will simply push them.. now, assuming the person uses their hypo as they will need to after facing the combo, if done in this order, you narrow it down to 4.5 seconds. you still have this combo coming again which will result in immediate death... assuming you don't have the lunge doffs added which was pointed out above in my previous post and later in this post.. But, if you get hit with the arc kb which can be increased beyond the 66%, but we'll say for the sake of argument that you only face that 66%, that's another 2.5 seconds off there and then the lunge is coming 2 seconds later to finish the job.. and if not, by then the arc will be reactivated... or you could get in another arc seeing as it has a shorter cool down and then do the lunge... either way, the KB is the reason you have lost this battle. Also, the lunge activation is not always 1.25 as it says. tested and saw that it actually activates faster if you are closer. Also this is getting close to the exploit you guys use with the lunge doffs.
I may have been wrong on how I put it the first time, seeing as I had forgotten about the lunge actually being the attack and not pounce as it used to be when you guys spammed me with it before it was nerfed.. and I had forgotten about the 6 second shared cool down that was added.
And I didn't say it locks you out of your tray like swords do but is ABLE to do the same and is even more effective as swords can be because it kills a lot faster.. which is true. Don't try to spin my material to fit your argument.
Also, uhm... the above can be countered just like the sword method can be countered. Since your complaint is about sword I'll go ahead and give you the counter for it. Counter it by rolling out of it. Even in a corner if you get the timing right you can roll out of the way of the sword.. with the tray locked. once it unlocks before the next KB you get enough time to either hit a hypo or just simply use your stasis pistol to stop them from attacking and then use your hypo. This method is also able to be countered by running around in circles and shooting them or running backwards. It screws up their combo, even with the tholian sword, and stops them from getting the KB. The first time they use the sword you may die but it is effectively able to be countered almost every time. Try using it the next time someone is using it against you in pvp.
And now to address your use of the lunge exploit. How is using an almost 100% guaranteed method of killing your enemy not an exploit and how does it require skill? You hit a few keys, in which knowing all the while that your opponent does not have a chance. Anything that does not have a method of effectively being countered every time is the definition of an exploit... and that's just with one part of the tactic... you are also facing cloak.
Com'on... stop treating everyone here like idiots. I haven't been playing near as long as pug and yourself and I know these things. I may get some things incorrect still but no one is perfect... but, the things that you are addressing have been out there for a while and you are using most of them yourself... There is no doubt in my mind that you know as well that the use of these mechanics isn't right. Just admit when you see a problem and lets move on. You cant get just the mechanics that you find not suiting to you fixed and then not the rest.
Now, with all of that said.. Even though, I know about the all of the above and more. I do not support the use of broken mechanics or exploits, and yes, they are broken no matter what cryptic says. We're getting the same answer apple gives about their broken products... its our imagination and works as intended.
Now, I can already see that you are one of those people who can not admit when they are wrong and must have the last word, so I will just go ahead and stop posting and allow you to have the last word. By all means, the floor is yours.
P.S. Thanks T.J. and Sutherland for allowing me to test the combo. :P
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
Reading this thread is funny. I love reading my 2 shot combo is not a exploit because...
If you lock out your target completely during your "tactic", it shows unsportsmanlike conduct. i don't care if you feel its designed that way or not. If your target never gets to fight back during the combo, you removed the vP part from PvP and instead changed it to dummy pratice. If you want to fight things that don't have a chance to fight back, do some more PvE and leave the players who want to PvP alone :P
Comments
This is a rather bad comparison you made there between lunge and the broken sword chain-knockback and sounds like a justification to use the broken swords.
Chain knockback and swords..
Most of the people using a sword are NOT going for a single knockback, they are doing it for the CHAIN-KNOCKBACK against a wall. The victims hotbar stays greyed out and can't do anything at all while the sword user has all the time of the world to finish its victim no matter if it takes 5 or 35 hits.
THAT is NOT how swords or knockbacks have been working in the past years in this game and since they never mentioned it in the patch notes either it seems to be obviously broken in some way and you know that. And i don't think borticus example about kb's was really saying "melee-chainknockback are WAD", maybe we need some clarification from him.
Lunge/Pounce and the non-chained knockbacks..
Lunge (and pounce) on the other hand give you a single knockback, if you manage to use that small time window for a kill with that one knockback - awesome - but often enough the target survives and may get a hypo in and start to fight back.
Thats pretty much how knockbacks have always been in this game since launch and if anything we need to get telekinesis fixed to be useful again, cause it used to do the exact same thing for the years before willpower was introduced.
Btw willpower.. If we go by what borticus said about resistances i believe willpower has always been working to good actually as it has made quiet a bunch of kit-powers totally useless and that can't be a good thing. Examples: science-kit stasis & gas, tactical-kit stun nade, stun-pistol secondary stun, lobi-store whip stun, telekinesis. Gladly a lot of that seems to be fixed on tribble atm, to bad they broke other stuff on tribble.
People want enjoyable PvP.
Just look at space and the attempts to run no-bs tournaments, even if this concept seems totally alien to you and your fleet, its pretty obvious that the majority of pvp players prefer pvp were the opponents have a chance to fight back and some gameplay happens.
In the end every fleet needs to make their own definition how much fairplay they want and where you draw the line what fairplay is. We at FS have some rather clear definition there, none of us carries 30 copies of the same kit for the extreme cooldowns circumvention that you described in a guide on this forum, we had banned the use of the stasis pistol while it had the weapon-malfunction bug and we are also discouraging the use of swords for its chain-knockback atm cause its obviously broken.
The match I was actually talking about was several assault matches. I did heal all of you when in range (and most of you remains within range), but you cats seem to forget that Bajorans can't run up walls like cats can to sustain healing line of sight. It's like using evasive maneuvers in space with an escort shooting 30km away from the healer. You can't expect them to follow you. And your "everyone agreed I lacked skill" comment is obviously false. I have been asked to run my science officer in premades by those players since then. If "everyone agreed" that clearly wouldn't have happened.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
While it's not as easy as cats.. it's still doable.
Actually I was referring to the assault matches and not the premade battle we had, however, since you brought that match up, Let me remind you that if it would have been set up as you said, which it wasn't, you guys would have had the upper hand seeing as you would have had healing powers against a group of nothing but tac's who have no healing powers at all.. one simple tac who was receiving heals could have taken the whole team. You must have forgotten that I assisted in the set up of those matches though and it was actually a match of 4 tacs an engineer and a sci (who is also not the best but, did a great job still) vs 2 scis, 2 engineers, and 2 tacs.
And in one match we were down a guy (1 tac) and still pulled off a win by 12 points.
I can tell you why you guys lost. You lost because you weren't coordinating well enough. When I cycled through my targets, you were all on different targets... which means that you are not focusing your damage which means that you are less likely to kill anyone. If I remember correctly in all of those matches I pretty much self healed myself with the occasional heal here or there and put out most of the damage from my team. There was no shield tanking or shield healing from the engineers, and you had one engineer who ran nothing but the enemy neutralization kit and placed mines and a bomb in front of the door while hiding in the corner on the outside of the door... which rarely killed anyone as we didn't really play at the door much. This means he was putting out almost no damage and leaving the rest of his team to take more damage and that reflected at the end game. I also noticed that you guys weren't coordinating buffs all that well. At one point I noticed that 2 tac init were up at the same time.. which is a big no no in any team. The tacs were also not using their battle strategies correctly and had ill timed suppressing fire. Your engineers were not using weapon malfunction, which would have been perfect against tacs as it takes away our power to shoot or sacrifice our power to heal. And from you sci's, I rarely ever saw any dampening fields to reduce incoming damage.
These are the reasons you lost, Not because it was a mismatched team. You guys just needed to work on more skilled usage of buffs and debuffs and have more team work. Its not easy working as a team when you normally run with pugs, as pugs almost never work together, and I realize that as I mostly run with pugs... so when I'm in a team it occasionally gets hard for me to adjust. It normally takes me at least one sometimes two matches. Then when I switch back over to pugs I forget that they are most likely not going to work together and start expecting support, I'm not going to get. I am sure that's mostly what was going on in those premades and same with the assault.
The problems there were simple, you did more self healing and didn't use the dampening field as much as you should have, which is fine.. We still won because it was only against FDC/KIG. ;P jk. But yeah...
I'm not perfect in pvp by far, which I am sure that's how this post is making my thinking seem, and its hard for me to realize what I'm doing wrong so I actually LOVE for ppl to call me out on my mistakes so, if you see me in pvp and see that you can improve my game, please... by all means, call me out on it.
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
I'd love to see you try to run up the trench wall in assault while under fire that can knock you back. It would be quite amusing.
Somehow I have a feeling you are talking about an entirely different premade vs premade. There was no FDC/KIG members in the match at all. The only premade vs premade I was in recently was a 4 tac/1 eng vs 2 sci/3 eng/1 tac. You, 3 FES members, and 2 others were on one team and I, one Hammer Squadron, and 4 LFT fleet members where on the other team. And your team was not down one player, it was our team that someone had to leave. I had noted in match chat right before it started that such a match was going to be very onesided, but we stuck with it. I didn't really care, the match was just for fun. I did very little self healing in that match. The only times I needed to self heal was when your team would drop super buffed cloaknades in the far back of the corridor. And yes, I could have run up to drop damper fields, but with your constant jumping to cover I would have needed to switch to shooter mode. During that time it would have been impossible to keybind heal the team. That's enough on this long topic here on the forums though, the match has long since ended. And all we are doing right now is giving the 20+ space PvPers reading this thread a good long laugh at our expense.
--->Ground Combat General Bugs Directory
Real join date: March 2012 / PvP Veteran since May 2012 (Ground and Space)
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
Make a cat if your having trouble :P
Ewww no!
Cats are ugly, hairy furballs that should never been invented
If i am gonna play a game i am not gonna look at a cat and be like ohhh nice, no im gonna make a HOT charactor that i can take Screenshots with because it will just make my screenshots look more awwsome cuz ill be like "Hmmm look at that sexy chick
Nah, I'm always curious to hear what goes on in that other part of PvP. I'm sure most of us are just going 'wtf' at the stuff being discussed here.
You'll make a cat and like it!
Just make a Female Cat and give it 7 of 9 Borg parts to make it look like a Liberated Borg.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
I have a signature below for you ...therefore your argument is invalid...dismissed
So what else are you complaining about? I mean thats what 99.99% of PvP'ers DO! Feel free to meet us in a pre-made vs pre-made, but you and FS always decline to do so.
Where's MT? I bet even the Pandas use TS!!!! ZOMG NOT TS!!!!!!!
-Spells
| Dues Ex Mechina |
Fleet Leader
Your sig is HAX!! lol.
@Tira
Besides, I wasn't using TS last night to kill 2 scis(one of which was tira) and a tac, vs 2 tacs (Sutherland and I). There is no way we should have won that match and we creamed you guys. lol. You had us out numbered and was trying to run the virus on us. lol.
Next, going into PvP will be hax too. lol
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
On August 23, 2012 the patch to melee, changed all melee damage attacks. One of the changes were the alteration of how knockback from melee attacks are evaluated. You can observe this from pounce. Any melee attack that has a chance to knockback will knockback a 100% of the time and completely ignore knockback resistance. Pounce has a 80% chance to knockback on the tooltip but instead it knocksback a 100% of the time. The sword's secondary hit always had a knockback on it. In fact it has always been a 100% knockback. The combination hit from Bat'leth's has and always has had a 100% knockback. But in the past these knockbacks would evaluate the knockback resistance and if it was resisted the knockback would become a repel. This use to work in the favor of those using Pulsewaves since it kept you in range of maximum damage to pulsewaves but pushed the sword wielder out of sword range.
Lunge, Pounce and other melee Weapons have a knockback that cannot be resisted as they were before August 23, 2012. If you repeat any of these hits they will continuously knockback. If two people lunge back to back on the same target the target will experience a chain knockback. So if the sword's knockback that cannot be resisted is wrong then the lunge can accomplish the exact same thing. There is nothing that prevents Lunge from being used in a chain knockback. So if you are ok with Lunge and not with the Sword's knockback then it is very much the same as saying that you are ok with a little bit of exploiting but not a lot of exploiting. Then again Borticus had full access to the video showing the sword chain knockback and it was the very first item in the write up he replied to. So when he wrote his reply he obviously was including the sword knockback in his reference.
Before LoR, the Pulsewave's secondary 66% chance to knockback was also ignoring knockback resistance. This allowed a lunge+pulsewave combination to result in a chain knockback. But now weapon's knockback can be resisted in LoR. So it is clear that the developers are changing the knockback or evaluations of knockback, as Borticus suggested they would do, if they felt it should be different.
What I am gathering from your reply is that you would like to keep the lunge guaranteed knockback that can also be used in a chain knockback but remove the knockback from the sword. If that is what you would like then convince cryptic to code it in.
In the end the developers determine how the game plays and what receives focus. Some features like knockback resistance disappearing might be a desired effect to establish an easier play-style for some players. Or it might be a change to their mechanics that alters how things work and might require a balance pass at a later stage. Whatever the reason is, only the developers can determine how these things work. At best we can provide feedback. But it is clear that Cryptic rarely appreciates PvPers feedback. What I would like to see, and I believe this to be of more importance is the implementation of Six Sigma within Cryptic. http://www.sixsigmaonline.org/index.html
Back to my original response. Screaming to other players that they are committing bloody murder does nothing useful and quite often you are found to use something that another "self proclaimed police officer" thinks is broken. Or even worse you are found to break your own rules and thereby becoming a hypocrite.
Do you even realize that the attempts for a no-bs tournament has been going on for a long time? Several teams don't even agree on the current no-bs rules. As stated before, many people do not agree on how the game should work. But why are they even "involved" in this? In my opinion it is because of Cryptic's neglect of PvP features.
Furthermore, how many players cannot participate in the tournament because their builds violate the rules? You are assuming it is the majority of space PvPers involved in these tournaments. Currently these tournaments have about 6 to 9 teams participating. That is about 45 players participating in a Space PvP Tournament. Do you really think there are only 45 players PvPing in space combined, all the time? In the end the no-bs tournaments is a great step forward, but don't place it on some high pedestal. It is an exclusive tournament not inclusive. For now it works, but it hopefully would lead to something bigger and better. Other PvP games have massive tournament setups that lasts weeks. And those allow any player to participate as long as they can find a team that suits them.
MrKollins this response is not just directed at you but at all of us.
I would like to think that the STO PvP Players could affect the game format in a positive way. But how many times have we now seen, where PvPers give input about some feature, broken or new, and they get completely ignored. The Developers are the only ones that can provide a meaningful positive input into PvP. Ground PVP has been fragile for quite some time. In that same breath so has space PvP. If I really thought that some action of mine could improve PvP then I would really strive for such results. But I am just not that important in PvP. Especially Ground PvP. The only role I have hoped to play is to make sure everyone has a good chance at knowing what I know.
The issue here is that we hardly look at cryptic anymore for the issue in ground PvP. We have now had to take a gentle glove approach whenever we work with Cryptic because they might just ignore us again. I am all for a polite conversation with developers but we are the customers playing their game. If we are not happy with the game then we can either voice our complaints and if nothing else happens we could stop supporting Cryptic's product. There are several ways to do so: Completely leave the game, or stop buying zen. If that doesn't get their attention then we are just not that important to the game and that is fine too.
But instead we have resorted to harassing ("verbally") other players for their play-style. It appears to be effective to us, because it is the one area, we as players, are having some effect on PvP. But this only results in frustration since we really cannot enforce our wills and wants on another game player. It is not much different from telling someone else that they should believe in the same religion as you do, because "you" are "right". We are just playing this game and any harassment to change how another player plays this game is sad and pathetic because it involves a bias interpretation of how "you" would like things to be like. We are not in a position to be democratic. In the end Cryptic will do what it wants. Cryptic might take some of our democratically derived inputs but Cryptic exercises its own prerogative when implementing features.
In my opinions this player harassment has been fostered by Cryptic. Cryptic's method of communication and style of practice is best suited when players are not harassing them directly. Instead; us focusing on other players allows them to "get away with murder". This suits cryptic even further when it gets to an area of the game where a very small portion of the game players participate. And in the process players from other areas of the game look at the PvP concept as broken and unfriendly. Kirk captains that enter PvP in space get a verbal lashing instead of a helping hand. Players that enter ground combat get a verbal beating when they seek higher ground because that is a broken mechanic according to some. Even though in other games the technique is almost always to find a high vantage point to fight from. That doesn't mean that these techniques are correct or not unfair but we have become a community where our harassing("verbally") of other players are now effectively part of our game play. In my opinion it would be nice if zone chat was disabled in PvP zones.
We have to consider that the lead developers have no interest in PvP and don't PvP. They have clearly expressed that it wouldn't be a problem for them to remove PvP from Star Trek Online. They have promised PvP improvements for years. They have expressed that if a PvP reputation system is introduced that it probably would not require everyone to PvP. They have also expressed that if sector control is implemented that it most likely won't be completely based on PvP and that we probably will see very little impact from PvP in sector control. We really only see some changes related to PvP when it causes an embarrassment to PWE. To really save PvP we will need developer PvP changes. No amount of PvP Player desire will change the game.
P. S. The latest big hit setup on ground is as follows. Use the Operative kit with the melee doffs. Start with Strike Team, Battle Strategies, Target Optics and Fire on My Mark. Start shooting your opponents shields down. When their shields are just about gone load Ambush and Lunge for full effect. If they are not dead just hit the secondary on your weapon and it should finish them. They won't be able to use a hypo until your weapon's hit is complete. It is useful to make sure they don't have much shields before you start your Lunge since the full damage from the Lunge will hit their armor. Even without a critical hit the Lunge is still a 600+ hit through 65% resistance. Furthermore without the shields your weapon's damage will be able to guarantee that you get a full armor damage after the Lunge. This combination will start your full armor damage with a guaranteed knockback preventing them from responding with a hypo until you are done with your sequence.
I do believe that Cryptic wants a good PvP for their MMO, but we aren't there yet, the game is slowly developing and first things come first, like factions and keeping the large PvE player base happy.
The bug fixes for PvP may take a while, but if we ask for them they will deliver.
www.divisionhispana.com
The 23th August 2012 patch did not do that, its not mentioned in the patch notes and since i have a video of some sword melee duel i actually know that this bug was not present in 2012/09 either. Got no facts to back your story up so you play a little guessing game here when it entered the game eh?
Yes there is something that prevents pounce and lunge from beeing used in that way.. the cooldown. You still seem to have an issue understanding what the real issue with the sword chainknockback is, im gonna highlight it for you:
ONE player using lunge (or pounce) results in ONE knockback caused by that, thats perfectly fine.
ONE player using a sword all by himself pressing repeatedly the button 2 results in UNLIMITED chain knockback. You could even use a MK 1 sword here, as it doesn't matter if it takes you 5, 10 or 10000 hits to finish the victim since your victim is stunned nonstop forever.
So YOU bring up some hypothetical example of multiple players using lunge in a coordinated & timed team effort to achieve the same thing ONE sword user can do.... so thats your justification to use swords.. seriously? lol.
He didn't seem to reply to your videos directly item by item but made an "example" there. He also pointed out that you seem to misunderstand how resistances work and in your cold-hold video its pretty clear that you really seem to misunderstood how it works.
What i am gathering from your reply is that you are still comparing apples and oranges in an attempt to justify your use of the broken swords chain knockback.
One player pressing 22222222222222222222 and causing 20 knockbacks back to back on a victim thats never able to stand up again is something totally different then a theoretical coordinated teamplay attack with multiple players trying to mimic the same with abilities that have cooldowns like lunge or pounce.
Your example is rarely ever happening in games and in 2on1, Xon1 situations the knockback isn't really the deciding factor anyway.
Killing an opponent with one knockback (as you describe here) is a show of good timing/playing skill and not new at all, its been like that forever and i'd even say thats what knockbacks are made for, without em we'd play HealTankOnline. Its also not as guaranteed to lead to a win as you make it sound here, just play it if you think its so awesome.
Its also much more clean then relying on the ambush-not-consumed-on-use-of-nades coupled with the no-impact-circle-for-victims-when-throwing-nades-cloaked "feature" that you guys seem to be so fond off (also known as cloak-nading).
Nice wall-of-text btw pug. GG.
not going to quote each lil thing I am addressing or make it in any order... I am sure you'll figure it out.
Firstly, Even if borticus was referring to a general example and not a specific example... uhm, lets face it... even the resistances are screwed up and DO NOT work "as intended". Willpower gives absolutely no real resistance. its a joke. straight up. The only thing I have ever seen it resist against is the cane and that's if you have it turned to max. lol.
Next, you are ok with the sword KB but... what about the kb in which you can use tac init with a pulse wave with a kb buff and do a lunge, arc, pounce, arc, lunge, arc, pounce? That pretty much does the same as the sword but kills much faster... and unfortunately I first learned about that exploit from FS using it on me when I was only a young noob.
Also, when pug mentioned your lunge kill he mentioned shooting the shield down but didn't really point out that it was a 1 shot hit to take down the shields first with the secondary with a lunge behind it. I don't really call that skill seeing as you also have the cloak to get a surprise attack and a flank.
Also when pug mentioned the above... I don't think he said NEW anywhere in his post statement. He just said that it was the latest strategy, which isn't really true either.. its just FS' latest strategy...
Now, I'm finished attacking your nice wall of text. gg.
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
:P
Ain't Nobody Got Time for That
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
A lot of Klingon tactics involve decloaking, using photonic shockwave to disable and alpha striking a cruiser to which the cruiser can do nothing in return. This is a bit sad when you consider the size of a cruiser compared to a tiny BoP. Its also somewhat inaccurate from the role of the BoP in Star Trek in general.
I understand why people get so upset, to win in a fair fight is great but to win through unhanded tactics and game mechanics that another player cannot do anything to defend against... well its seen as cheap and until this changes... its always going to be like this.
I beg to differ! and he dances!
https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4778681600/h94D0FCD9/
Do you even Science Bro?
^
Era Skysni.
HAHAHAH! i miss playing with the fleeties in sto
Do you even Science Bro?
Willpower should shorten stun's not turn kit abilities or weapons completely off, it got a well deserved change in my opinon. Finaly science-kit stasis & gas, tactical-kit stun nade, stun-pistol secondary stun, lobi-store whip stun aren't totally useless anymore. I like what the devs did there.
No im not.
It used to had an immunity that worked like the rifle butt kb's.
Maybe you should have spend a couple minutes more researching that because its not working like that.
a) Your ability rotation makes no sense
Lunge an pounce share a cooldown.
Ability cooldown is 12 seconds; Shared cooldown is 6 seconds. (since February 28, 2013)
Tac ini shortens the ability cooldown to 6s, its not touching the shared one.
Whats the point of doing "lunge, arc, pounce, arc, lunge, arc, pounce" if you don't even need pounce since both abilities are up the very same second with tac ini? You'd actually gimp yourself there as lunge deals more dmg.
b) Your rotation timing won't work.
Average duration my hotbar stays greyed on a lunge or shotgun kb seems to be around 1,7-2s . With your lunge,arc,pounce rotation you have a 2s gap after the second ability of your rotation already.
c) Shotgun KB has a 66% chance
Your whole chain-kb thing (assuming you'd work a rotation out that actually works) fails already with your magic shotgun, cause mine ain't knocking all the time
Even you should be able to diffentiate between timing & using multiple abilities to defeat an opponent vs playing like a monkey by clicking 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 with a sword, its pretty obvious which of the two is a bug.
And yes i consider using a combination of different abilities at the right moment in the right order indeed as skilled playing in a RPG.. while pressing one button nonstop clearly requires close to zero playing skill.
Nice try. I'll give you credit for the valiant effort dreaming that combo up at least.
You should know better then trying to defend this spam-one-button-chainlock stun bug tho.
Before I get to the KB thing I want to point out that willpower effectively does not reduce any hold, root, placate, etc etc etc other than the cane, the way it should. Therefore it is broken.
You were right, and I was wrong when it came to the 6 second shared cool down. However... you are still just a little wrong in your math. You forgot to add that it takes 2.5 seconds to actually stand back up and your tray to be working. That leaves the attacker with a 3.5 second cool down on the second lunge and not a 6 second cool down for the next tray lock. Then you are looking at adding 1.25 seconds on to that which ends up being a max of 4.75 seconds to avoid the next kb.. and that's if you don't get a kb with your arc. First let me explain how the KB with the arc works. You can NEVER get a kb with the arc while the opponent is starting to stand up. it will simply push them.. now, assuming the person uses their hypo as they will need to after facing the combo, if done in this order, you narrow it down to 4.5 seconds. you still have this combo coming again which will result in immediate death... assuming you don't have the lunge doffs added which was pointed out above in my previous post and later in this post.. But, if you get hit with the arc kb which can be increased beyond the 66%, but we'll say for the sake of argument that you only face that 66%, that's another 2.5 seconds off there and then the lunge is coming 2 seconds later to finish the job.. and if not, by then the arc will be reactivated... or you could get in another arc seeing as it has a shorter cool down and then do the lunge... either way, the KB is the reason you have lost this battle. Also, the lunge activation is not always 1.25 as it says. tested and saw that it actually activates faster if you are closer. Also this is getting close to the exploit you guys use with the lunge doffs.
I may have been wrong on how I put it the first time, seeing as I had forgotten about the lunge actually being the attack and not pounce as it used to be when you guys spammed me with it before it was nerfed.. and I had forgotten about the 6 second shared cool down that was added.
And I didn't say it locks you out of your tray like swords do but is ABLE to do the same and is even more effective as swords can be because it kills a lot faster.. which is true. Don't try to spin my material to fit your argument.
Also, uhm... the above can be countered just like the sword method can be countered. Since your complaint is about sword I'll go ahead and give you the counter for it. Counter it by rolling out of it. Even in a corner if you get the timing right you can roll out of the way of the sword.. with the tray locked. once it unlocks before the next KB you get enough time to either hit a hypo or just simply use your stasis pistol to stop them from attacking and then use your hypo. This method is also able to be countered by running around in circles and shooting them or running backwards. It screws up their combo, even with the tholian sword, and stops them from getting the KB. The first time they use the sword you may die but it is effectively able to be countered almost every time. Try using it the next time someone is using it against you in pvp.
And now to address your use of the lunge exploit. How is using an almost 100% guaranteed method of killing your enemy not an exploit and how does it require skill? You hit a few keys, in which knowing all the while that your opponent does not have a chance. Anything that does not have a method of effectively being countered every time is the definition of an exploit... and that's just with one part of the tactic... you are also facing cloak.
Com'on... stop treating everyone here like idiots. I haven't been playing near as long as pug and yourself and I know these things. I may get some things incorrect still but no one is perfect... but, the things that you are addressing have been out there for a while and you are using most of them yourself... There is no doubt in my mind that you know as well that the use of these mechanics isn't right. Just admit when you see a problem and lets move on. You cant get just the mechanics that you find not suiting to you fixed and then not the rest.
Now, with all of that said.. Even though, I know about the all of the above and more. I do not support the use of broken mechanics or exploits, and yes, they are broken no matter what cryptic says. We're getting the same answer apple gives about their broken products... its our imagination and works as intended.
Now, I can already see that you are one of those people who can not admit when they are wrong and must have the last word, so I will just go ahead and stop posting and allow you to have the last word. By all means, the floor is yours.
P.S. Thanks T.J. and Sutherland for allowing me to test the combo. :P
"Working as intended"... 1 year later they "fix" it.
If you lock out your target completely during your "tactic", it shows unsportsmanlike conduct. i don't care if you feel its designed that way or not. If your target never gets to fight back during the combo, you removed the vP part from PvP and instead changed it to dummy pratice. If you want to fight things that don't have a chance to fight back, do some more PvE and leave the players who want to PvP alone :P