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Feds, Cloaks / BoP Are Underpower
macronius
Member Posts: 2,526
Since the server is down I thought this would be a good time to raise this issue. I am so sick of the constant complaints in Kerrat about BoP and battle cloaks. Here are the top reasons why Birds of Prey are actually under-powered and alpha strike is not that dangerous ... really!
Trust me I have spent countless hours and have decimated many feds and also died many deaths. I know this from both sides.
1. BoP have weakest shields of all ships
2. BoP have weakest armor of all ships
3. BoP have a max of 4 tac consoles unlike escorts which have 5
4. BoP are missing a real weapon
5. BoP are missing a Boff slot.
Yeah, I know the slots are universal, but for pure DPS, we mostly end up with Cmdr + Lt Cmdr Tac, Eng Lt and Sci Lit. The fleet norgh has a Lt Cmdr instead of Lt but looses another tac consoles for the privilege.
6. BoP have fewest crew and slowest repair times
7. BoP are slow ... slow ... super slow even with advanced engines
8. BoP buff powers are audible at under 5KM ... good luck timing that alpha strike if your target is not distracted and awake
9. BoP alpha strike completely nullified by subspace jump console ...
10. BoP alpha strike massively mitigated by tactical team / emergency power to shield / reverse shield polarity / rotate shield frequency / brace for impace (some combination of 2-3 of these powers)
and now the problems with battle cloak
1. Can be de-cloaked in numerous ... numerous ways including
A) Science captain ability
Eject warp plasma
C) Tychons rift
D) ST VI torpedo
2) Can be spotted when close or with enhanced console or with aux power
3) Can be fired upon after it is cloaked including from auto fire. Happens all the time when Kerrat respawns and also when you enter the zone.
4) Always attract mines ... notice not just hit but actually attract mines
5) Hit by torpedos even if already cloaked and have put 10+ KM distance
6) Hit by tractor beams even if cloaked including tractor repulse
But most important of all. BoP do NO damage ... 0 damage while they are cloaked, unless it is a super tuned B'Rel BoP, which has it's own serious vulnerabilities and drawbacks.
That's right, the very fact that BoP are cloaked and hiding from your P2W console and lock box ships means they lose and you win. You can have 3-4 BoP cloaked lurking about but they are useless until they actually de-cloak. If you deny their ability to de-cloak by spawn camping and/or mining then you have essentially won.
So I will admit that this is kind of a vent thread. I also accept nearly all of these drawbacks, with the exception of the "behing hit by torpedoes while cloaked" thing which is plain stupid. What I can't stand is the constant complaints. BoP and battle cloaks are not overpowered feds.
You will find out soon enough when Roms get here. Assuming Cryptic doesn't rig the game now that Feds get battle cloaks ... err Roms align with Feds.
<fin>
Trust me I have spent countless hours and have decimated many feds and also died many deaths. I know this from both sides.
1. BoP have weakest shields of all ships
2. BoP have weakest armor of all ships
3. BoP have a max of 4 tac consoles unlike escorts which have 5
4. BoP are missing a real weapon
5. BoP are missing a Boff slot.
Yeah, I know the slots are universal, but for pure DPS, we mostly end up with Cmdr + Lt Cmdr Tac, Eng Lt and Sci Lit. The fleet norgh has a Lt Cmdr instead of Lt but looses another tac consoles for the privilege.
6. BoP have fewest crew and slowest repair times
7. BoP are slow ... slow ... super slow even with advanced engines
8. BoP buff powers are audible at under 5KM ... good luck timing that alpha strike if your target is not distracted and awake
9. BoP alpha strike completely nullified by subspace jump console ...
10. BoP alpha strike massively mitigated by tactical team / emergency power to shield / reverse shield polarity / rotate shield frequency / brace for impace (some combination of 2-3 of these powers)
and now the problems with battle cloak
1. Can be de-cloaked in numerous ... numerous ways including
A) Science captain ability
Eject warp plasmaC) Tychons rift
D) ST VI torpedo
2) Can be spotted when close or with enhanced console or with aux power
3) Can be fired upon after it is cloaked including from auto fire. Happens all the time when Kerrat respawns and also when you enter the zone.
4) Always attract mines ... notice not just hit but actually attract mines
5) Hit by torpedos even if already cloaked and have put 10+ KM distance
6) Hit by tractor beams even if cloaked including tractor repulse
But most important of all. BoP do NO damage ... 0 damage while they are cloaked, unless it is a super tuned B'Rel BoP, which has it's own serious vulnerabilities and drawbacks.
That's right, the very fact that BoP are cloaked and hiding from your P2W console and lock box ships means they lose and you win. You can have 3-4 BoP cloaked lurking about but they are useless until they actually de-cloak. If you deny their ability to de-cloak by spawn camping and/or mining then you have essentially won.
So I will admit that this is kind of a vent thread. I also accept nearly all of these drawbacks, with the exception of the "behing hit by torpedoes while cloaked" thing which is plain stupid. What I can't stand is the constant complaints. BoP and battle cloaks are not overpowered feds.
You will find out soon enough when Roms get here. Assuming Cryptic doesn't rig the game now that Feds get battle cloaks ... err Roms align with Feds.
<fin>
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
- Judge Aaron Satie
- Judge Aaron Satie
Post edited by macronius on
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Almost every Klink KDF ship cloaks.
LoR will balance the PvP factional game by giving feds more cloaking and battle cloaking options!
Go muffen cakes.!
There was a day, year, a long time ago where KDf owned in PvP and the only weapon feds had where to lay mines everywhere.
Only torpedoes and mines ... both of which do negligible damage unless shields are already down or using transphasic. Good luck with the latter when dealing with auto healing and other buffs from rep grind.
- Judge Aaron Satie
I dont feel sorry for you. I remember how klingons where practically untouchable back in the original launch of the game. I had to convince people to lay mines back then. It took me dual boxing and asking someone to help fly around me, before some people realized, there is a way to fight the cloaks.
What are we the scum of the universe? I have spent the equivalent $20 a month subscription for the last 9 months. I am not freeloader. All I am asking is for Feds to stop complaining in Kerrat.
- Judge Aaron Satie
Methinks there was some bad bloodwine being sold recently.
it shouldnt be possible that a bird of prey with full aux ..full skill on stealth and 3x stealth consoles mk xii very rare ..ie 200 on stealth almost ..could be detected ..even when flying close .
or targeted by the pets...cause the pets ..especially danubes tend to sometimes target u like that even if ur cloaked .
brels retrofitted on the fleet store atleats should have 5 tac consoles to compensate on lack of boffs
what bops need is either another weapon, a boff skill or more hull. (or all of this)
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
which has nothing to do with bops, because sci or eng bops barely do any burst.
CUUCUUMBEER! "-With slight partigen with it."
Proud member or DPS-800 "-We kill dem mines with our scitter turrets."
Well, whenever I was basically one-shotted that way it was a a BoP. So I really wouldn't appreciate it if they become even harder to kill if I manage to survive one. If the BoP has to get better that tactic has to get worse.
Sometimes, if you want to bury the hatchet with a Klingon, it has to be in his skull. - Captain K'Tar of the USS Danu about J'mpok.
Here is why. When a torpedo or cannon shot is fired, everything is calculated from right there. That includes the hit or miss and time to impact. So even if you get out of 10 km, you're going to receive damage at the instant the torpedo reaches the point you were when it was fired. To give you an example, I was in kerrat a couple days ago. I decloaked with my Defiant for an alpha strike and had taken down a BoP's shields when it ran off with evasive or something. However, my torpedoes had launched just before it got out of 10 km. The BoP cloaked and disappeared... only to explode a moment later. (it was a high yield quantum torpedo)
In short, non-heavy torpedoes are not dynamic. They are calculated at the time of firing, not the time of impact.
Same reason you can throw nades through walls on the ground.
I actually have a bop myself and I mainly use it to cap and it's fun enough but far from overpowered.
There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there is more than one way to do DPS. The BoP is not an escort. It shouldn't really be flown like one. If you want to do DPS like an escort, fly a raptor.
All escorts have low crew amounts
No, no they aren't, they are damn fast things when given some proper engines and engine power. The turn is almost as high as a JHAS.
Ever heard of feinting? Something completely plausible. More strategy and less pew.
Same can be said about all escorts on both sides
All of these things are very specific and situational, most are avoidable. The others require the user to spec heavily into sensors and even then it's not a done deal.
Anything that is in the air at the time you cloak is going to either hit or miss you timing is crucial. You can mitigate damage to your hull using armor and or brace for impact.
All ships attract mines, you can avoid them or outrun them.
See 3
Polarise your hull, you can do this cloaked. Stops repulsors dead.
Birds of prey can be very highly powered, this is why the are the weakest ships in game. Skilled BoP pilots are feared because they know how to get the most out of their ships, while not OP they can be very very dangerous, in no way are they underpowered.
Yes and no. An Alpha can be done any Tactical vessel only a cloaker can do both, of which the Defiant class is one of the best.
Decloak Alpha is not just a BoP thing no matter how long the feds seem to be continually surprised by it in Kerrat.
R.I.P
It can be done yet is not easy. If mastered though you have a potent weapon.
R.I.P
so making everyone invisible is called balance lol
bind people fighting is always fun I guess :rolleyes:
BoPs have their advantages and disadvantages. They have the universal boffslots, the battlecloak, and the high turning rate. . .but they sacrifice shield mod, hull, a boff station, a rear weapon slot, and (traditionally) one less tactical console (fleet Hoh'sus doesn't have this problem). It's a trade-off.
One thing's for sure, it is not easy to successfully use a BoP in PvP. I don't care what dumbass Feddies think, it's a little more involved than 'point and shoot'. You have to time things properly. . .the decloak distance, the alphastrike pattern, whatever abilities you activate. It's also not easy to tank in a BoP that's specc'd for hit-and-run bursts, because you only have so much room for healing abilities. Most BoPs probably rely on Tactical Team to keep them alive long enough for them to disengage, re-cloak, and then reposition themselves for another run.
I, too, get tired of people whining about BoPs. How dare we use the battlecloak that the ship class pays a fair bit for! How dare we engage in hit-and-run tactics and coordinated ambushes in order to compensate for the disadvantages of the ship class! We should just sit there and slug it out like escorts, destroyers, and raptors that are way better suited for that, right?
I think the word that best describes the strengths of the BoP class is this: Tactical flexibility. They can move quickly when needed, they can exit a battle scene more easily due to battlecloak, and the universal boffslots enable more flexibility in terms of what abilities they can use. For example, I'm currently running a hit-and-run BoP that carries TB2 and VM1 (with doffs enhancing the VM1). It requires a Commander tactical station, a LT tactical station, a LTC science station, and a LT engineering station. It still runs light on heals (a precarious situation, given the low shield mod and hull).
I don't even want to get started on just how much ******n harder it is to seriously hurt people with all the friggin innate rep boosts people have. Placates when critically hit, automatic regens, and god knows what else. Fleet shields that build up to a 20% resistance to energy types they're attacked with. I can't tell you how many times I've hit someone with TB2, VM1, and a well-buffed alphastrike (BO2 + HY3, with APA, APO, and maybe one other attack buff), only to have them friggin survive with 10-30% health because some innate heal or placate kicked in.
You know, I hardly see Defiant users take advantage of that cloak anymore.
This is Star Trek Online and there is almost 50 years of Star Trek information supporting this game. Before you make a post like this you should learn about Star Trek before you vent about something that you are completly wrong about. Watch Star Trek VI "The Undiscovered Country" and you will learn all about torpedo's that hit cloaked ships.
In STO the console that makes it possible to hit a cloaked ship with a torpedo is the "Ionized Gas Sensor" universal console.
This is canon, get over it.
As for the rest of the OPs "rant"...pffft...you dont like the BoP get another ship the KDF has LOTS to choose from and most of them are hard to kill 1v1.
However...there are numerous BoP Captains that trash Feds "at will" in a BoP...your fighting skills are...lacking...ask a seasoned BoP Captain for some tips on how to hone your PvP skills. They will help you out, the KDF hates one of their own getting a beat down by a Fed, ruins their He-Man image.
Hope this information was usefull...:P
Badname Betty (PvP...PvE...STF...Trophy Hunter...Latnium Collector...Federation)
Commander Morgana (PvP...PvE...STF...KDF)
1000 day vet and LTS
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] STO Join date: 7 Feb 2010
And then science powers will get nerfed.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
http://gateway.startrekonline.com/#char(Klaat@mid403)/ship/equipment
tl;dr bop pvp is cake mode
I can't even remember the last time I've lost 1v1 to a bird of prey unless they were a Sci and subnuked my defenses off in the middle of a photonic shockwave, or hit me with 2x beam overload IIIs in about a second. These things are disgustingly easy to blow up if you get them in your front arc for two seconds, which isn't as hard as it sounds.
My own bird of prey makes pretty explodey lights in Ker'rat quite often, BUT. BUT, that is against bad players who don't know what emergency power to shields is. What tac team is. What distribute shield power is. When I'm up against a target who knows how to actually play, it's incredibly more difficult and requires me to hyperanalyze cooldowns, timers, etc. If I pick on an experienced space pvper, it's over.
Battle cloaks are a tactical advantage, but they're certainly not an I-Win button, especially since there are so many ways to disable and counter them.
Fanfiction! ZOMG! Read it now!
kate-wintersbite.deviantart.com/art/0x01-Treachery-293641403
The Universal BOff layout I like and nr.5 can be named to equal that out.
That leaves 4 weaknesses that now that Battlecloak is general use by Roms does not equal out for having a battlecloak.
10k hull less, worse shields and a missing weapon slot (in comparrison to FED escorts) can no more be an exchange for the battlecloak.
It is time now to make the KDF raider ships more in line with their other counterparts. In PvE you can do a lot of damage, but once you get agro you die way to fast.
I don't care so much about nr. 3 and 4... I care most about nr. 1 and 2, those give me survivability in STF's which is supposed to be endgame in this game for people that dislike most PvP...
Why does it prove so effective?
With everything else Klingons can bring that Feds don't have, drains galore for one, why do some insist on acting the victim?
Even I know a BoPs biggest strengths are working in packs and battle cloaks.
I for one can't wait for LoR and the field levelling it brings in regards to cloaks.
Indeed, against a skilled player a decloak alphastrike is more likely to be shrugged off or simply 'not kill' the target. If the target isn't destroyed outright or seriously maimed (as in, 10% of HP left), the run is basically a failure. You're not likely to get a second chance to really stab at them, especially if you rely on a combination of BO2 and HY3 to deal the damage.
Heck, just having the target shift shield facings is enough to TRIBBLE up a run. Part of the issue is that the BoP is simply not built to 'stay in the fight'. I personally can only manage it when the enemy has other people to shoot at. It's a completely different method of fighting.