If they nerfed because of monetization... really? You can't think of ways to make money off of the science class? Just give this one to the community. You'll be swamped with ideas. There are already science ships I would consider purchasing for a science captain, but with 6 weapon slots and a neutered captain... why would I?
Its not the captain class. Its the boff abilities and the stats they are based on. The only sci captain ability that is mostly pointless is the holo fleet. Pre-F2P we used to have a skill box that boosted the performance of this ability and back then a holo fleet was darn good to use. After F2P the stat vanished and the holo fleet was reduced to 0 stat boost performance..the garbage we have now.
Finally, yes it is nerfed because of monetization. Its not that there are no ways to make some money out of it, its the fact that tactical items sell better and science items don't. Again, its a perfect world design mandate and they've done their research in their myriad of games to show that dps is what sells. Why don't they sell science (debuff/support in other games) boosting items? Simple: debuff = makes tactical items null. If a science ship with p2w item can shut down a tac escort that is p2w to the teeth chances are that escort is not going to bother buying more p2w items since his competitive edge is countered. What sells items is the exclusive advantage it gives you.
This is also why science / debuff/support types are nerfed to high heaven in ALL PW games: By their nature the debuffs reduce even the p2w items (since they depend on the general stats the debuffer is already supposed to debuff) and that affects sales. Hence science has to be reduced to ineffective debuffing and crowd control but keeps healing abilities functional. It also tells you why the tactical/dps skills and abilities are buffed in a way that they synergize with p2w items by making the p2w items be overpowered when compared to dps/tactical players with no p2w items. Why do you think tactical team was given shield autobalance?
...after all, imagine Mr. Jemhadar Bugship player that sunk $200~ on buying the ship meeting a free science ship and having his weapons disabled, his shields stripped and his ship tractored and popped . P2W bugship player would very likely never sink money into the game ever again.
Yeah, that's why I threw that last line in there. Because in that case, there really is no hope.
As dashrendar, mentioned earlier, it would be nice if PvP and PvE could be somehow disconnected, so the small minority that does not PvP could still have a useful third class option.
A team that's heavy on Scivessels, the odd carrier, escorts all piloted by a mix of tacs and eng captains do way better in pve and swapping eng captains to sci to own pvp. An Ausmonaut team built like that clears space STFs so quick we have time to do all 3 ground STFs in the remaining time!
So in pug pve and pvp, science is irrelevant. Eng is irrelevant. The escorts have added your career's uniqueness to their own. Resistance is futile.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
"Structure, logic, foundation, control. A structure cannot stand without a foundation.
Logic is the foundation of function. Function is the essence of control. I am in control.. I am in control..."
Yeah, that's why I threw that last line in there. Because in that case, there really is no hope.
As dashrendar, mentioned earlier, it would be nice if PvP and PvE could be somehow disconnected, so the small minority that does not PvP could still have a useful third class option.
You got it backwards, it's the minority whom PvPs. The game always have been and still is a PvE game at the core. In any event the Skills should be divided such that they can have different effects and stats separated in the two systems, just like MMORPGs have been capable of since EverQuest 1 circa 1999.
You got it backwards, it's the minority whom PvPs. The game always have been and still is a PvE game at the core. In any event the Skills should be divided such that they can have different effects and stats separated in the two systems, just like MMORPGs have been capable of since EverQuest 1 circa 1999.
so you get better gear to beat the borg in stfs?I thought people get it to have an advantage over others.For PvE white common stuffs are more than enough.Why invest to get better if the only enemy you will ever face is some line of code?
Does the problem really lay with the Science Boff Abilities, or does it actually run much deeper than that?
Tactical, Especially Tac in an escort can deal out massive damage, quickly, and can really excel at hit and run gameplay.
Engineer, especially in a cruiser can really get in close, shove some torps down their throat and keep up the intensity of damage (albeit lower damage than a tac escort), thanks to being able to repair.
Then you can Sci and Science Ships, the redheaded stepchild of the game. Less weapons, less hull, lower/mid turn rates, and of the 3 classes the one that requires the most space skill points dedicated to certain skills in order to make the abilities even remotely effective.
I'm going to use the Intrepid class as an example, specifically the Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit:
Minimum Rank: Vice Admiral
Crew: 200
Weapons: 3 Fore, 3 Aft
Device Slots: 3
Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Lieutenant Tactical; 1 Lieutenant Engineering; 1 Commander Science; 1 Lt. Commander Science, 1 Ensign Science
Console Upgrades: 3 Engineering, 2 Tactical, 4 Science
Base Turn Rate: 12 degrees per second
Impulse Modifier: 0.15
Hull Strength: 27,000
+15 Power to Auxiliary
Ablative Generator
Subsystem Targeting
Sensor Analysis
There's 4 points difference between the turn rate of the MVAE (16), Intrepid (12) , Excelsior Retrofit (8), and then the Atrox at 5. I'm just using these other ships as an example for each ship class.
The MVAE being the closest in size to the intrepid has 3,000 more hull, an additional fore weapon
If some simple changes such as the addition of a 4th fore weapon slot (no DHC), Base turn rate increased from 12 to 14 or even 16 and the hull strength increased to 29,000 or even 30,000, and the ensign Sci boff station changed to a universal ensign station, it still wouldn't make sci overpowered.
Sci Abilities are trickery, smoke and mirrors, whatever analogy you chose. They there to trick,confuse,hold your enemy so you can get it do some damage and get out before they manage to take down your shields.
I'm not saying Sci should be a DPS monster like an escort or a tank like a eng, but somewhere in between. When I first started playing when the game went F2P you could be a tac,sci,eng and with the right build and some strategy hold you're own no matter the class and no matter what type of game content. Now with more and more powerful/stronger ships the divide between classes (especially ship classes) is become far more prominent.
Personally I don't think it's the abilities that need to be reworked, but the actual ship configurations themselves. Perhaps what really needs to happen is a standardization of turn rates, hull strength, weapon slots, shield strength, and then separating ship classes
based on the Boff stations. For example for a sci ship: 1 Commander Sci Station, 1 Lt. Commander Sci Station, 2 Lt. Universal Stations, 1 Ensign Universal Station.
Simple example of the problem is an escort can start a shield heal while a sci ship is setting up an attack, and then get another shield heal before sci has finished the killing combo. IT just takes too damn long.
As a former longtime world of peacecraft pvp player, seeing this happen to Sci is not suprising. I remember when drainlocks ruled the pvp scene, even against ''rouges'' before their nerfed downfall.
IMHO, the reason so many players complain is their inability to deal with not being in control of your character/ship effects. Bad players just wanna lock on to you and blast away for the nice goodies inside instead of using their braincells.
Well for that matter so would magic tricks. But the angle is it has to be something only a sci ship could use. Currently, anything(?) a sci can take advantage of so could an escort. A sci captain can fly escort and use subnuke. Haz Em 1 clears burn as good as 3. etc... Meanwhile the reverse is NOT true. Let's see a sci ship or cruiser spit out 16 mines using a pattern. In all fairness DisPat-anything should maybe be a CRUISER ability. Point is, everything useful can and is used by escorts, yet scis and to some extent cruisers are crippled with no DHCs and pitiful mine dispersals among other things. KDF cruisers fit duals... sci ships have less weapon slots, why on earth is a larger ship unable to fit those weapons for FED??? Oh woopie, an Atrox or FED Dread can. After the new revisions to RCS, I took an Atrox for giggles, and just to see, put all MK XII blue rcs's PLUS Helmsman trait to see if duals were any more viable. Guess what? Even if the boost is stronger for slower turners (Atrox is the worst or tied in game), any use of duals was still a novelty at best. At least anything outside of parking and shooting a stationary object. I would never expect a full blown carrier to turn like an escort, but you'd think with 15mil of turning buffs, it might come close to a regular sci ship!
my beam boat carrier has taken every escort it has met out, and with zero doffs! Its not escorts online, its just knowing how to correctly pvp and time everything.
Yeah right. I'd like to see that. IF you can sustain their DPS, you need the DPS to take one out. Some bugs are tankier than alot of cruisers. THEN, if you get them down, they run off with their speed and agility, so you need to be fast too to prevent escape (because most can shrug of TBs and GWs). I've yet see a cruiser that can do all 3 and without fail win. It's usually you can tank OR DPS/speed a bit. Not both. And with NO DoFFs, don't make me laugh.
Re-branding. What a load of politicaly correct horse droppings.
I do agree though that science seems weak and then somebody hits me with it in a team setting and its weakness seems to be not so much true.
Why and what aspects of Science or weak is my question?
Science abilities 1 are nearly as useful as 3s. Tac abilities 3 far exceed 1s. That about sums it up. Not to mention certain abilities such as Tyken's, Energy Siph, & Jam Sensors are about useless. I'm not saying 3 scis stacking and using 3 trac beams and coordination are, but alone the abilities are weak in pvp and too easily countered by say a notch is insulators. This is NOT true with ANY tac abilities. Do escorts need to coordinate 3 CRF3s to be effective? This is not about any one ability or the thread would be titled something else though.
You honestly expect a Dev to pop their head into a thread that starts with incendiary commentary, accusations and gross hyperbole? You named the gorram thread "Why are you killing Science?" and you want a Dev to actually answer you?!
Get your head outta the clouds, and quit with the entitlement issues. The devs aren't here to answer your "questions." This isn't really even a question - it's an accusation, and you're trying to subpoena Cryptic to the witness stand for your own personal mockery of a trial. More like a witchhunt.
And you know what's even more awesome about this whole thread? Not a single shred of concrete examples, or actual feedback.
Got a problem with the proposed Science traits? How about you say WHY instead of just throwing around statements of "this sucks" and "that sucks." Why do you think they suck? How should they be improved?
Upset about the fact that Science can't defeat enemies as easily as an Escort? What do you suggest to close this gap? Do Sci abilities need to deal more damage? Shorter cooldowns? How would you suggest this problem be solved?
REAL feedback will get a Dev response. Pay attention around here, and you would realize that.
Throwing a tantrum gets you exactly what you are truly entitled to - being ignored.
I honestly don't expect a dev to reply no matter how he words it. It's their lack of doing so that has lead to the overall 'rants' you see now. I'd expect to see it more and more often until they acknowledge the issue.
Its not about having sci ships do as much damage as escorts. Thats ridiculous.
Its about science ships being able to DISABLE, HOLD, JAM and DEBUFF targets with the same potency that escorts can put out damage.
Like pre-f2p actually.
The reason why science has been so nerfed is because its BY DESIGN. F2P changes were focused towards the monetization of the game. Guns, tactical consoles, ships..all that sells. Science abilities are boff based and dont have a fraction of the monetization potential tac stuff has.
Its an established pattern from Perfect World. Every..single.. game they buy up, gut and re-vamp into F2P follows the exact same pattern: the games focus entirely on DPS.
STO ceased to be STO when PW bought out Cryptic. It became one of their clone games. This cow will be milked and squeezed and milked until (like every other PW game before it) it reaches a point where pay 2 win becomes so absurd players leave the game. When that happens they shut the game down, copy paste the entire game code into another game that will use different theme (replace starships with flying dragons for example) and use the same interface...will have the same bugs, the same issues. But hey, people will flock to it, play it for a few years until it again becomes p2w absurdity and collapses. Cycle repeats.
PW bought out Cryptic and other companies as it broke into the NA market. Cryptic isn't Cryptic anymore. The huge loss in quality, game design and customer service following the F2P patch is enough to prove it.
Then it is our responsibility to tell them we want a STAR TREK game, not another shoot-em-up-epic-space-battle clone.
EDIT:Just realized I necroed this thread. DARN you hyper-link from other threads!!!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
They are killing the SCI powers and captains because most of the players main TAC officers since STO is basically a DPS race now. In the great scheme of things SCI officers steal all the TAC officers PEW-PEW fun with their debuffs particularly in PVP while being able to do nothing other than out heal an ENG in basic play now.
So the TAC majority whines about how unfair SCI CC powers and debuffs are, and how unfun it is to be controlled, and Cryptic in their great wisdom, seeking to keep the majority happy, NERFs the TRIBBLE out of them. This because TACs can go PEW-PEW and PVP PEW while spending cash shop coin on that groovy new console or lock box do-dad where SCI captains are too few to care much about. They are like the FEDs very own KDF mini-sub-faction that way.
I mean look at the SCI powers left intact. They either require no AUX or are fully boosted by TAC buffs while the classic CC powers such as gravity well and tractors are nerfed consistently into uselessness even when fully amp'ed. That's right, they have made TACs in SCI ships more useful than SCI Captains in SCI ships by selectively nerfing core abilities.
It is because SCI captains are trolls, the ultimate butt holes, only able to steal a TAC's thunder and do no DPS in the process leaving a trail of whiny screams in their wake on the forums... It is what it is and I doubt it will ever change.
Tsk, and there I was thinking us engineers were getting the shaft. :P
Seriously, though, this game is indeed steadily becoming Escorts Online. Has anyone noticed how many of the new ships, even cruisers, can now fit DHC's too? And with the new RCS-laced neutroniums on the way, everything is rapidly turning (pun intended) into an escort.
We are. Even worse in a way. But that's another thread worthy of a kidney stone passing rant.
I don't know about that, you've got A2B and Dragon builds that can pull off quite a bit of DPS, and you're still the strongest tanks by a little bit. Admittedly, tanks aren't that valuable, and no one can get anywhere without turning into a damage dealer, but at least cruisers have the means to do that, while sci ships mainly don't (the Vesta can give up most of its sci slots and get there, but that's not really the same thing).
edit: Meh, I'm editing that out since it wasn't really helpful. The PvP bashing just gets a little old and tends to result in...yeah, me editing posts after my initial response.
I won't quote the multitude of threads here about this big issue that you seem to be ignoring. It just seems like that instead of putting science down, you shot it in the leg and are letting it bleed out. I was optimistic until I got a chance to test out Singularity Jump, but was disappointed to see it was just a very pretty Gravity Well II.
What I and other Science Captains wants to know is the following:
1-Why are you killing science? It seems all we can do reliably anymore is heal.
2-Why do you let one faction of your community who keeps crying rivers about "Science is OP! NERF!" dictate your decisions?
3-When did this game become "Escorts PvP Online"?
4-What Career will you add to replace Science after you kill it off completely?
OK. I'll take this seriously.
1. We can shield heal, but for the real deal hull healing I want a cruiser on my team.
2. While Science was for a long time sent reeling and still feels the effects of the ubernerf of 2409 to some extent, it's by no means as bad as it used to be and I have to be honest here and say that I now see far more threads about nerfing Escorts and whatever is the latest console/pet/mine/etc.
3. It's not. Five Escorts will have a tough time fighting a team of five cruisers or five sci ships.
4. While I am extremely irritated that there is currently only one science ship option available to Romulans (and Klingons?), that they said they would give a buff to Photonic Fleet and didn't and that there is a 'chance to remove all debuffs' doff for cannons, they are simply not killing off science. It is very much alive and well, even if it is a niche market. It's entirely possible to get higher DPS from abilities than from your actual weapons as a Sci in a Sci ship. So no, they're not killing Sci.
The simple fact is that a large section of the player base sadly has absolutely no idea what to do with a sci ship and seemingly has no idea how much a well timed grav well, tractor beam, scamble sensors and sensor scan combo helps them to melt things (half the stuff kills its buddies if you throw an Iso-charge and a mine or two into the mix). Lots of the effects a sci ship can have in the course of a game simply don't show up on Capt. Moar Dakka's parser and so he makes 'what's the point in Sci?' threads on the forums and blames the Sci for Cure Space failures because for him team play is 5 solo DPS who just happen to find themselves in the same arena and occasionally fire at the same target. Yea... bla bla, 5 minutes instead of 10, but it's just boring eh.
Sure, a little neglected, but not nearly as bad as cruisers are in a game that has only a few situations where tanking is useful. Nowhere is it ever necessary outside of pvp and even then, only if you can put the necessary team heals or dps out. The massive nerf to sci powers was necessary. I remember impenetrable shields and inescapable grav wells. Not cool. Some things could have more of an effect on players than they do right now, and actually, some stuff could have less (Scramble+Doff?) but unlike Capt. Moar Dakka, I don't want myself or anyone else to be OP. I'm sure those players (not me) who would have a legitimate right to say they can 'represent' the PvP community would agree with me on that one.
(EDIT) For the record, I have played almost nothing but Sci Cpt in Sci ships. Not because I believe the myth, but because for me, that's where the fun is in this game.
"So my fun is wrong?"
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
Most folks are not going to take an approach anywhere near balanced. They will fly off the handle at the slightest mention of the smallest nudge regarding anything that they use.
Balance may mean taking a few hits from those nudges - knowing that in the end that it will be for a better balanced game...a better game.
been waiting for the same questions to be answered as well. Some serious looks need to be made into the particle space skills and the ground doff bonuses not functioning like they describe or being negated completely by 1 shield hitpoint.
everybody is so fixated on raw dps that they are forgetting the point of sci isnt dps.
tachyon beam and syphon are the biggest indicators of this.
sci ships are pretty obviously supposed to sidestep the dakka spam with abilities that neutralise the offensive & defensive abilities of their targets.
Tachyon Beam and Energy Siphon are also perfect examples of how they're killing Sci. They are both laughably weak in the face of the resists and power and shield levels of almost any NPC. Even an ESTF probe will be left apparently unaffected by them, it won't be noticeably slowed and its shields won't be noticeably weakened. That's the problem here, almost all sci abilities are next to useless.
Both shield drains and both energy drains have insignificant effects, many enemies can now escape Gravity Wells with ease (really, I don't see any reason, given the slot levels, that GW should be easier to escape than Tractor Beam), Viral Matrix never had enough of an effect on them to matter, Tractor Beam is pointless since targets seldom have significant defense values and when they need to be held up they always come in groups, Jam Sensors is too fragile and only protects yourself, Feedback Pulse has no effect most of the time, Photonic Shockwave has an extremely short disable (which cubes and up are immune to since S7) and little damage, and Scramble Sensors is short duration and only does something on targets that shoot. The only one that's left out of that list is Tractor Beam Repulsors. That's still powerful, but incredibly dangerous, it can lose a mission as easily as it can win one, and because it's so highly situational it winds up not being all that effective over the long term.
So that's where sci is right now. Maybe Viral Matrix, Tractor Beam, and Feedback Pulse are holding their own in PvP, but in PvE sci is far, far too weak.
So that's where sci is right now. Maybe Viral Matrix, Tractor Beam, and Feedback Pulse are holding their own in PvP, but in PvE sci is far, far too weak.
Say we go with the too weak thing for a moment, would it really matter in PvE if they were not? At the core, PvE design is based around DPS. Optionals are based around DPS. There's little point in using many abilities if the target is going to be dead in a few seconds.
carasucia83 said that a large section has no idea what a Sci Vessel can do. Thing is, the majority of folks have no need to know what it can do...there's no PvE designed for it.
The more useful abilities can generally be run from a hybrid Escort or Battle Cruiser or even a Raider. Heck, look at the recent lockbox duo of the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer and Battle Cruiser, eh?
Say we go with the too weak thing for a moment, would it really matter in PvE if they were not? At the core, PvE design is based around DPS. Optionals are based around DPS. There's little point in using many abilities if the target is going to be dead in a few seconds.
There's a little bit of truth to this, but really not all that much. In general, Control does have limited usefulness in PvE, but not always, and that's not all sci can do. A good shield stripping ability (and pre-S7 CPB almost counted) would make a target's shields go down significantly faster. That matters in PvE. A good power drain would significantly reduce a target's shield regen, shield resistance, damage output, and speed. That matters. Until LoR a ship with GW and the knowledge of when to use it was a valued asset to most STFs, especially ISE. Obviously, a good AoE hold matters. Photonic Shockwave used to be useful for damage, and to break tractor beams and disable other buffs. Not anymore. The problem with Viral Matrix is that the targets you want to hit with it last too much longer than its effect, so that it has negligible impact on the battle (and that probably can't be fixed without breaking PvP, but that's still the deal with it). Even Jam Sensors could be useful, although not as good as the others should be, if it weren't so fragile (and/or reduced the users threat level significantly). Scramble Sensors, Feedback Pulse, and Tractor Beam have their weaknesses built into their concepts, and so wouldn't be useful without changing PvE significantly (except possibly Scramble, with a working GW and a decent duration it might become decent, although not necessarily worth the slot), but the rest would be good if they just weren't so bad at what they're supposed to do.
If your team doesn't coordinate, it's hard to take advantage of what Sci has to offer.
It's one of the quirks of the game.
I'm sorry, I just have to ridicule this. Not you specifically, just the fact that this statement is true.
It's no shot at you because I can see how you got there, by the very fact that not a single Perfect World International game even slyly suggests that there might be more to their game than sucking off the player's own ego. And as the way prostitution goes, the more you pay, the better you get.
I never thought I'd see the day that teamwork was just a funny little quirk of an MMO.
Most people are playing headless chicken-fests in PUG arena, with no coordination of any kind.
If your team doesn't coordinate, it's hard to take advantage of what Sci has to offer.
So very true.
Coordination starts with oneself, of course. Like there's no point in doing a Tyken's Rift, if you don't have a tractor beam ready. So, a sci Captain, like any other, should know his stuff.
Or... have someone else do the tractor beam, is your point, I guess. I mean, have you ever done an Azure Nebula with ppl who are willing to coordinate? It's so refreshing! Most puggers don't even realize the entire (local) Tholian group despawns the moment you have disabled all, yes (coincidence) tractor beams! And so they're just Kirking away, each for themselves, oblivious to any form of organization. Honestly, it's so refreshing to be in a team where a few 'distract' the Tholians, as it were (+Th consoles help), when other team mates are disabling the 4 tractor beams in the meantime!
But to get back to sci, a coordinated group of sci players can be a mean bunch, and is to be dreaded (yes, even by a Dreadnought).
It's true, though, that this game is pretty much solely DPS oriented, which has a tendency to favor those playing Escorts Online. But you know what?! Sometimes I just fit sci-stuff, because... wait for it... it's fun!! Like cycling Transfer Shield Strength and Feedback Pulse (as they're on the same cooldown). Yes, I parse; so I know FBP isn't doing a boatload of damage. But I do it, because it's fun.
And fun is important too. It's either that, or listen to "Doh you just need to fit 4x DHC's." all day.
Or... have someone else do the tractor beam, is your point, I guess. I mean, have you ever done an Azure Nebula with ppl who are willing to coordinate? It's so refreshing! Most puggers don't even realize the entire (local) Tholian group despawns the moment you have disabled all, yes (coincidence) tractor beams! And so they're just Kirking away, each for themselves, oblivious to any form of organization. Honestly, it's so refreshing to be in a team where a few 'distract' the Tholians, as it were (+Th consoles help), when other team mates are disabling the 4 tractor beams in the meantime!
.
That may be an easy way for a sci ship to do it, but not the fastest. I prefer people coordinating in azure by letting my tac solo while the rest of the people team up on other spawns. Its much easier for me if I don't have other players nearby me aggroing tholians before I decloak and getting webs and FAW spam targeted on them, even on the tarantula spawn I can just solo it in less then 20-30 secs then don't have to worry about anyone needing to be with me to hold aggro while I do beams.
Point being is that what sci can do in pve, tac usually has a better faster way to do it.
Comments
Its not the captain class. Its the boff abilities and the stats they are based on. The only sci captain ability that is mostly pointless is the holo fleet. Pre-F2P we used to have a skill box that boosted the performance of this ability and back then a holo fleet was darn good to use. After F2P the stat vanished and the holo fleet was reduced to 0 stat boost performance..the garbage we have now.
Finally, yes it is nerfed because of monetization. Its not that there are no ways to make some money out of it, its the fact that tactical items sell better and science items don't. Again, its a perfect world design mandate and they've done their research in their myriad of games to show that dps is what sells. Why don't they sell science (debuff/support in other games) boosting items? Simple: debuff = makes tactical items null. If a science ship with p2w item can shut down a tac escort that is p2w to the teeth chances are that escort is not going to bother buying more p2w items since his competitive edge is countered. What sells items is the exclusive advantage it gives you.
This is also why science / debuff/support types are nerfed to high heaven in ALL PW games: By their nature the debuffs reduce even the p2w items (since they depend on the general stats the debuffer is already supposed to debuff) and that affects sales. Hence science has to be reduced to ineffective debuffing and crowd control but keeps healing abilities functional. It also tells you why the tactical/dps skills and abilities are buffed in a way that they synergize with p2w items by making the p2w items be overpowered when compared to dps/tactical players with no p2w items. Why do you think tactical team was given shield autobalance?
...after all, imagine Mr. Jemhadar Bugship player that sunk $200~ on buying the ship meeting a free science ship and having his weapons disabled, his shields stripped and his ship tractored and popped . P2W bugship player would very likely never sink money into the game ever again.
Yeah, that's why I threw that last line in there. Because in that case, there really is no hope.
As dashrendar, mentioned earlier, it would be nice if PvP and PvE could be somehow disconnected, so the small minority that does not PvP could still have a useful third class option.
A team that's heavy on Scivessels, the odd carrier, escorts all piloted by a mix of tacs and eng captains do way better in pve and swapping eng captains to sci to own pvp. An Ausmonaut team built like that clears space STFs so quick we have time to do all 3 ground STFs in the remaining time!
So in pug pve and pvp, science is irrelevant. Eng is irrelevant. The escorts have added your career's uniqueness to their own. Resistance is futile.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
:O
Logic is the foundation of function. Function is the essence of control. I am in control.. I am in control..."
You got it backwards, it's the minority whom PvPs. The game always have been and still is a PvE game at the core. In any event the Skills should be divided such that they can have different effects and stats separated in the two systems, just like MMORPGs have been capable of since EverQuest 1 circa 1999.
you get 5 escorts team vs my 5 sci ship team to see how "escorts online" is the game.:rolleyes:
so you get better gear to beat the borg in stfs?I thought people get it to have an advantage over others.For PvE white common stuffs are more than enough.Why invest to get better if the only enemy you will ever face is some line of code?
Does the problem really lay with the Science Boff Abilities, or does it actually run much deeper than that?
Tactical, Especially Tac in an escort can deal out massive damage, quickly, and can really excel at hit and run gameplay.
Engineer, especially in a cruiser can really get in close, shove some torps down their throat and keep up the intensity of damage (albeit lower damage than a tac escort), thanks to being able to repair.
Then you can Sci and Science Ships, the redheaded stepchild of the game. Less weapons, less hull, lower/mid turn rates, and of the 3 classes the one that requires the most space skill points dedicated to certain skills in order to make the abilities even remotely effective.
I'm going to use the Intrepid class as an example, specifically the Long Range Science Vessel Retrofit:
Minimum Rank: Vice Admiral
Crew: 200
Weapons: 3 Fore, 3 Aft
Device Slots: 3
Bridge Officer Stations: 1 Lieutenant Tactical; 1 Lieutenant Engineering; 1 Commander Science; 1 Lt. Commander Science, 1 Ensign Science
Console Upgrades: 3 Engineering, 2 Tactical, 4 Science
Base Turn Rate: 12 degrees per second
Impulse Modifier: 0.15
Hull Strength: 27,000
+15 Power to Auxiliary
Ablative Generator
Subsystem Targeting
Sensor Analysis
There's 4 points difference between the turn rate of the MVAE (16), Intrepid (12) , Excelsior Retrofit (8), and then the Atrox at 5. I'm just using these other ships as an example for each ship class.
The MVAE being the closest in size to the intrepid has 3,000 more hull, an additional fore weapon
If some simple changes such as the addition of a 4th fore weapon slot (no DHC), Base turn rate increased from 12 to 14 or even 16 and the hull strength increased to 29,000 or even 30,000, and the ensign Sci boff station changed to a universal ensign station, it still wouldn't make sci overpowered.
Sci Abilities are trickery, smoke and mirrors, whatever analogy you chose. They there to trick,confuse,hold your enemy so you can get it do some damage and get out before they manage to take down your shields.
I'm not saying Sci should be a DPS monster like an escort or a tank like a eng, but somewhere in between. When I first started playing when the game went F2P you could be a tac,sci,eng and with the right build and some strategy hold you're own no matter the class and no matter what type of game content. Now with more and more powerful/stronger ships the divide between classes (especially ship classes) is become far more prominent.
Personally I don't think it's the abilities that need to be reworked, but the actual ship configurations themselves. Perhaps what really needs to happen is a standardization of turn rates, hull strength, weapon slots, shield strength, and then separating ship classes
based on the Boff stations. For example for a sci ship: 1 Commander Sci Station, 1 Lt. Commander Sci Station, 2 Lt. Universal Stations, 1 Ensign Universal Station.
Make drains skill-based and sci will be fine.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=9692141#post9692141
Congratulations! You have completely misunderstood Working As Intended.
Protonic Kool-Aid Down The Drain Cruiser
Immortal BOff Skills combo for Ground
IMHO, the reason so many players complain is their inability to deal with not being in control of your character/ship effects. Bad players just wanna lock on to you and blast away for the nice goodies inside instead of using their braincells.
HULK SMASH rules the sky
Well for that matter so would magic tricks. But the angle is it has to be something only a sci ship could use. Currently, anything(?) a sci can take advantage of so could an escort. A sci captain can fly escort and use subnuke. Haz Em 1 clears burn as good as 3. etc... Meanwhile the reverse is NOT true. Let's see a sci ship or cruiser spit out 16 mines using a pattern. In all fairness DisPat-anything should maybe be a CRUISER ability. Point is, everything useful can and is used by escorts, yet scis and to some extent cruisers are crippled with no DHCs and pitiful mine dispersals among other things. KDF cruisers fit duals... sci ships have less weapon slots, why on earth is a larger ship unable to fit those weapons for FED??? Oh woopie, an Atrox or FED Dread can. After the new revisions to RCS, I took an Atrox for giggles, and just to see, put all MK XII blue rcs's PLUS Helmsman trait to see if duals were any more viable. Guess what? Even if the boost is stronger for slower turners (Atrox is the worst or tied in game), any use of duals was still a novelty at best. At least anything outside of parking and shooting a stationary object. I would never expect a full blown carrier to turn like an escort, but you'd think with 15mil of turning buffs, it might come close to a regular sci ship!
Yeah right. I'd like to see that. IF you can sustain their DPS, you need the DPS to take one out. Some bugs are tankier than alot of cruisers. THEN, if you get them down, they run off with their speed and agility, so you need to be fast too to prevent escape (because most can shrug of TBs and GWs). I've yet see a cruiser that can do all 3 and without fail win. It's usually you can tank OR DPS/speed a bit. Not both. And with NO DoFFs, don't make me laugh.
Science abilities 1 are nearly as useful as 3s. Tac abilities 3 far exceed 1s. That about sums it up. Not to mention certain abilities such as Tyken's, Energy Siph, & Jam Sensors are about useless. I'm not saying 3 scis stacking and using 3 trac beams and coordination are, but alone the abilities are weak in pvp and too easily countered by say a notch is insulators. This is NOT true with ANY tac abilities. Do escorts need to coordinate 3 CRF3s to be effective? This is not about any one ability or the thread would be titled something else though.
I honestly don't expect a dev to reply no matter how he words it. It's their lack of doing so that has lead to the overall 'rants' you see now. I'd expect to see it more and more often until they acknowledge the issue.
Then it is our responsibility to tell them we want a STAR TREK game, not another shoot-em-up-epic-space-battle clone.
EDIT:Just realized I necroed this thread. DARN you hyper-link from other threads!!!
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So the TAC majority whines about how unfair SCI CC powers and debuffs are, and how unfun it is to be controlled, and Cryptic in their great wisdom, seeking to keep the majority happy, NERFs the TRIBBLE out of them. This because TACs can go PEW-PEW and PVP PEW while spending cash shop coin on that groovy new console or lock box do-dad where SCI captains are too few to care much about. They are like the FEDs very own KDF mini-sub-faction that way.
I mean look at the SCI powers left intact. They either require no AUX or are fully boosted by TAC buffs while the classic CC powers such as gravity well and tractors are nerfed consistently into uselessness even when fully amp'ed. That's right, they have made TACs in SCI ships more useful than SCI Captains in SCI ships by selectively nerfing core abilities.
It is because SCI captains are trolls, the ultimate butt holes, only able to steal a TAC's thunder and do no DPS in the process leaving a trail of whiny screams in their wake on the forums... It is what it is and I doubt it will ever change.
Deal with it.
And yes, I am feeling cynical. lol.
Seriously, though, this game is indeed steadily becoming Escorts Online. Has anyone noticed how many of the new ships, even cruisers, can now fit DHC's too? And with the new RCS-laced neutroniums on the way, everything is rapidly turning (pun intended) into an escort.
We are. Even worse in a way. But that's another thread worthy of a kidney stone passing rant.
I don't know about that, you've got A2B and Dragon builds that can pull off quite a bit of DPS, and you're still the strongest tanks by a little bit. Admittedly, tanks aren't that valuable, and no one can get anywhere without turning into a damage dealer, but at least cruisers have the means to do that, while sci ships mainly don't (the Vesta can give up most of its sci slots and get there, but that's not really the same thing).
PVP is not important.
Repeat until feelings of inferiority go away.
If you think Science isn't capable of bringing incredible DPS and utility in PVE play, there might be no help for you.
OK. I'll take this seriously.
1. We can shield heal, but for the real deal hull healing I want a cruiser on my team.
2. While Science was for a long time sent reeling and still feels the effects of the ubernerf of 2409 to some extent, it's by no means as bad as it used to be and I have to be honest here and say that I now see far more threads about nerfing Escorts and whatever is the latest console/pet/mine/etc.
3. It's not. Five Escorts will have a tough time fighting a team of five cruisers or five sci ships.
4. While I am extremely irritated that there is currently only one science ship option available to Romulans (and Klingons?), that they said they would give a buff to Photonic Fleet and didn't and that there is a 'chance to remove all debuffs' doff for cannons, they are simply not killing off science. It is very much alive and well, even if it is a niche market. It's entirely possible to get higher DPS from abilities than from your actual weapons as a Sci in a Sci ship. So no, they're not killing Sci.
The simple fact is that a large section of the player base sadly has absolutely no idea what to do with a sci ship and seemingly has no idea how much a well timed grav well, tractor beam, scamble sensors and sensor scan combo helps them to melt things (half the stuff kills its buddies if you throw an Iso-charge and a mine or two into the mix). Lots of the effects a sci ship can have in the course of a game simply don't show up on Capt. Moar Dakka's parser and so he makes 'what's the point in Sci?' threads on the forums and blames the Sci for Cure Space failures because for him team play is 5 solo DPS who just happen to find themselves in the same arena and occasionally fire at the same target. Yea... bla bla, 5 minutes instead of 10, but it's just boring eh.
Sure, a little neglected, but not nearly as bad as cruisers are in a game that has only a few situations where tanking is useful. Nowhere is it ever necessary outside of pvp and even then, only if you can put the necessary team heals or dps out. The massive nerf to sci powers was necessary. I remember impenetrable shields and inescapable grav wells. Not cool. Some things could have more of an effect on players than they do right now, and actually, some stuff could have less (Scramble+Doff?) but unlike Capt. Moar Dakka, I don't want myself or anyone else to be OP. I'm sure those players (not me) who would have a legitimate right to say they can 'represent' the PvP community would agree with me on that one.
(EDIT) For the record, I have played almost nothing but Sci Cpt in Sci ships. Not because I believe the myth, but because for me, that's where the fun is in this game.
No. Your fun makes everyone else's fun wrong by default.
Most folks are not going to take an approach anywhere near balanced. They will fly off the handle at the slightest mention of the smallest nudge regarding anything that they use.
Balance may mean taking a few hits from those nudges - knowing that in the end that it will be for a better balanced game...a better game.
Tachyon Beam and Energy Siphon are also perfect examples of how they're killing Sci. They are both laughably weak in the face of the resists and power and shield levels of almost any NPC. Even an ESTF probe will be left apparently unaffected by them, it won't be noticeably slowed and its shields won't be noticeably weakened. That's the problem here, almost all sci abilities are next to useless.
Both shield drains and both energy drains have insignificant effects, many enemies can now escape Gravity Wells with ease (really, I don't see any reason, given the slot levels, that GW should be easier to escape than Tractor Beam), Viral Matrix never had enough of an effect on them to matter, Tractor Beam is pointless since targets seldom have significant defense values and when they need to be held up they always come in groups, Jam Sensors is too fragile and only protects yourself, Feedback Pulse has no effect most of the time, Photonic Shockwave has an extremely short disable (which cubes and up are immune to since S7) and little damage, and Scramble Sensors is short duration and only does something on targets that shoot. The only one that's left out of that list is Tractor Beam Repulsors. That's still powerful, but incredibly dangerous, it can lose a mission as easily as it can win one, and because it's so highly situational it winds up not being all that effective over the long term.
So that's where sci is right now. Maybe Viral Matrix, Tractor Beam, and Feedback Pulse are holding their own in PvP, but in PvE sci is far, far too weak.
Say we go with the too weak thing for a moment, would it really matter in PvE if they were not? At the core, PvE design is based around DPS. Optionals are based around DPS. There's little point in using many abilities if the target is going to be dead in a few seconds.
carasucia83 said that a large section has no idea what a Sci Vessel can do. Thing is, the majority of folks have no need to know what it can do...there's no PvE designed for it.
The more useful abilities can generally be run from a hybrid Escort or Battle Cruiser or even a Raider. Heck, look at the recent lockbox duo of the Tal Shiar Adapted Destroyer and Battle Cruiser, eh?
There's a little bit of truth to this, but really not all that much. In general, Control does have limited usefulness in PvE, but not always, and that's not all sci can do. A good shield stripping ability (and pre-S7 CPB almost counted) would make a target's shields go down significantly faster. That matters in PvE. A good power drain would significantly reduce a target's shield regen, shield resistance, damage output, and speed. That matters. Until LoR a ship with GW and the knowledge of when to use it was a valued asset to most STFs, especially ISE. Obviously, a good AoE hold matters. Photonic Shockwave used to be useful for damage, and to break tractor beams and disable other buffs. Not anymore. The problem with Viral Matrix is that the targets you want to hit with it last too much longer than its effect, so that it has negligible impact on the battle (and that probably can't be fixed without breaking PvP, but that's still the deal with it). Even Jam Sensors could be useful, although not as good as the others should be, if it weren't so fragile (and/or reduced the users threat level significantly). Scramble Sensors, Feedback Pulse, and Tractor Beam have their weaknesses built into their concepts, and so wouldn't be useful without changing PvE significantly (except possibly Scramble, with a working GW and a decent duration it might become decent, although not necessarily worth the slot), but the rest would be good if they just weren't so bad at what they're supposed to do.
I'm sorry, I just have to ridicule this. Not you specifically, just the fact that this statement is true.
It's no shot at you because I can see how you got there, by the very fact that not a single Perfect World International game even slyly suggests that there might be more to their game than sucking off the player's own ego. And as the way prostitution goes, the more you pay, the better you get.
I never thought I'd see the day that teamwork was just a funny little quirk of an MMO.
He was being sarcastic/snide...poking fun at folks...etc, etc, etc.
So very true.
Coordination starts with oneself, of course. Like there's no point in doing a Tyken's Rift, if you don't have a tractor beam ready. So, a sci Captain, like any other, should know his stuff.
Or... have someone else do the tractor beam, is your point, I guess. I mean, have you ever done an Azure Nebula with ppl who are willing to coordinate? It's so refreshing! Most puggers don't even realize the entire (local) Tholian group despawns the moment you have disabled all, yes (coincidence) tractor beams! And so they're just Kirking away, each for themselves, oblivious to any form of organization. Honestly, it's so refreshing to be in a team where a few 'distract' the Tholians, as it were (+Th consoles help), when other team mates are disabling the 4 tractor beams in the meantime!
But to get back to sci, a coordinated group of sci players can be a mean bunch, and is to be dreaded (yes, even by a Dreadnought).
It's true, though, that this game is pretty much solely DPS oriented, which has a tendency to favor those playing Escorts Online. But you know what?! Sometimes I just fit sci-stuff, because... wait for it... it's fun!! Like cycling Transfer Shield Strength and Feedback Pulse (as they're on the same cooldown). Yes, I parse; so I know FBP isn't doing a boatload of damage. But I do it, because it's fun.
And fun is important too. It's either that, or listen to "Doh you just need to fit 4x DHC's." all day.
That may be an easy way for a sci ship to do it, but not the fastest. I prefer people coordinating in azure by letting my tac solo while the rest of the people team up on other spawns. Its much easier for me if I don't have other players nearby me aggroing tholians before I decloak and getting webs and FAW spam targeted on them, even on the tarantula spawn I can just solo it in less then 20-30 secs then don't have to worry about anyone needing to be with me to hold aggro while I do beams.
Point being is that what sci can do in pve, tac usually has a better faster way to do it.