You honestly expect a Dev to pop their head into a thread that starts with incendiary commentary, accusations and gross hyperbole? You named the gorram thread "Why are you killing Science?" and you want a Dev to actually answer you?!
Get your head outta the clouds, and quit with the entitlement issues. The devs aren't here to answer your "questions." This isn't really even a question - it's an accusation, and you're trying to subpoena Cryptic to the witness stand for your own personal mockery of a trial. More like a witchhunt.
And you know what's even more awesome about this whole thread? Not a single shred of concrete examples, or actual feedback.
Got a problem with the proposed Science traits? How about you say WHY instead of just throwing around statements of "this sucks" and "that sucks." Why do you think they suck? How should they be improved?
Upset about the fact that Science can't defeat enemies as easily as an Escort? What do you suggest to close this gap? Do Sci abilities need to deal more damage? Shorter cooldowns? How would you suggest this problem be solved?
REAL feedback will get a Dev response. Pay attention around here, and you would realize that.
Throwing a tantrum gets you exactly what you are truly entitled to - being ignored.
Thanks. Refreshing
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Is Sci an illusion? Does Sci as it exists in STO exist anywhere else in the ST Universe? Is the root of the problem with Sci in STO...literally Sci in STO?
Hazard Emitters Jam Sensors
Mask Energy Signature Polarize Hull ScienceTeam (yes, a combo of Eng/Tac) Tachyon Beam Tractor Beam
Transfer Shield Strength Charged Particle Burst
Energy Siphon
Feedback Pulse Photonic Officer Tractor Beam Repulsors Scramble Sensors Tyken's Rift
Gravity Well Photonic Shockwave Viral Matrix
Subsystem Target on Science Vessels? Sensor Analysis on Science Vessels?
Carriersas Science Vessels?
How many Blue Shirtswere on Voyager?
Space Skills Tactical Systems Engineering Systems Science and Operation Systems
The following is heavily biased toward Starfleet, but then again - that's basically what we've had for 47 some years, no?
Which if one were to take it a step further, read through many of the main characters we've seen in the shows - many of them were "dual spec" or even "tri spec".
There were Ops (Tac/Eng) characters - Ops (Eng)/Sci characters - etc, etc, etc.
It is a much more complex system than we currently have in STO.
Heck, look at many of the ships, eh? 3/2 vs. 2/3, Lt/En & Lt vs. Lt & Lt/En, etc, etc, etc.
Has the manner in which Cryptic introduced Sci into STO created an expectation that not only cannot be met...but never existed in the Star Trek Universe in the first place?
Could Sci, in a twisted manner - be made more powerful - were it to better reflect the shows/movies?
The Sci/Tac or the Sci/Eng...piloting the Sci-leaning Escort, Cruiser, Light Cruiser, etc, etc, etc...?
Janeway was a science captain, though she was more insane than science.
Janeway had been a Science Officer aboard the Al-Batani, but that doesn't mean she was a Science Captain when she commanded Voyager. The Intrepid-class vessels were designed as long-term exploration vessels. Not much different than the Connie, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy... Voyager's first mission though was to capture the Val Jean.
One can see (though some would say it is conjecture), how the Sovereign and Intrepid represent a splitting of the roles of the Galaxy class. Where the Galaxy class was tasked with both exploration and "gunboat" diplomacy - the Intrepid was the explorer and the Sovereign was the "diplomat"...
In a sense, it kind of dates back to what happened with the Miranda, eh? There it is a Light Cruiser, but how many folks think of it as the USS Reliant and the role it played in Project Genesis?
Consider the command crew of the USS Voyager, eh?
Janeway - Captain
Chakotay - First Officer
Tuvok - Tac/Sec Officer
Paris - Helmsman
Torres - Chief Engineer
Kim - Operations Officer
The Doctor - Chief Medical Officer
Seven of Nine - Astrometrics Officer
That doesn't quite mesh with
Cmdr, LCdr, En,Lt,Lt...eh?
Cmdr, LCdr,Lt, Lt, En....hrmmm...
edit: But that kind of digresses some - makes it look worse for Sci than I intended. Sci never played the role it does in STO, but that doesn't mean it didn't play any role in Star Trek - it obviously did. Yet, were not prominent "Sci" characters also of a generally mixed spec? Tac/Sci, Eng/Sci, etc, etc, etc? Even going back to Janeway, as part of being part of the Command structure - she was no longer just a Sci.
edit: Basically, does Sci have enough to stand on its own in that fashion? Has it caused it to be weakened? Obviously, for our guys to be "Command" - as far as Starfleet goes, they had to come from somewhere - they're going to have a mix of skills. When it comes to vessels - well, Sci just didn't exist like it does in STO. Which is good, kind of - it's moving forward and all that...but some things are just kind of way off, imho.
Consider the Odyssey, eh? Tac - Ops - Sci. Still a cruiser. Then reconsider the Intrepid...Tac - Ops - Sci...tada...still a light cruiser. I'm somewhat surprised STO didn't go more that way, but with the plethora of sales they've made off of Escorts and the DS9/Defiant crowd...it's likely a good thing they didn't.
edit: I have 4 Eng (2 KDF, Fed), 2 Tac (1 KDF, 1 Fed), and 3 Sci (1 KDF, 1 KDF-aligned Rom, and 1 Fed)...
As for my 3 Sci...
KDF: Hegh'ta w/ 4x Sci BOFFs... Sci Spammage Galore!
KDF-aligned Rom: Fleet T'varo...more Tac focused Sci.
Fed: MU Deep Space...peek-a-boo, I see you...now sit!
Course, if I'm going to do any team PvE...the KDF Sci is going to switch out weapons, add in some Tac/Eng BOFFs. The Fed Sci is going to hop into one of his various Escorts.
Cause it's not only the way Sci itself was added into the game in a muddled fashion - but it is also the way that Sci was not added into the PvE content that adds to the issue.
That's one of the reasons that I feel Sci needs to be redone from the ground up - parts of the game need to be redone from the ground up...so that the Sci can feel as if it was meant to be there from the start and that the game has room for Sci.
I know it will never happen, but sometimes I dream...
The latest rom sci consoles and dil mine eng consoles, as well as warp drives vastly narrow the gulf between sci ships and escorts. Significant focus has been paid to tankyness...turn rate...added passive heals...aux power buff...power transfers...enough so that eng and sci captains can play and succeed easier against all the escorts. There's a ton of combos to try with the elite fleet engines...and all automatically come with aux bonuses...
Why and what aspects of Science or weak is my question?
(PvE perspective btw)
Gravity Well - Has a difficult time keeping the enemy bunched up anymore, not to mention it's primary use is the hold, not the damage, and therefore I can simply stick to GW1 which a plethora of escort/cruiser/destroyers can bring to the party.
Energy Syphon - A drain ability who's primary purpose is getting the buff, kinda messed up.
Tykens Rift - Any target worth draining is pretty much immune, keeping any non immune targets within it's effects are more trouble than the pathetic drain is worth.
Tachyon Beam - Drains so little against NPCs you hardly notice.
Charged Particle Burst - see above
Photonic Shockwave - Damage is pretty low compared to weapons and many important NPCs are immune to the stun effect
Viral Matrix - Once again a blanket immunity on anything worth using this on, it doesn't effect shields, and lastly the things I would like to use it on (say spheres for instance) just pop EptE to remove the useful portion.
Tractor Beam Repulsars - Great for trolling..... damage is impressive though if you know how to min/max it.
Honestly I find the number one sci ability in my builds (aside from HE) to be the good old tractor beam to get the accuracy overflow, ensign works well enough for that.
Science captains are fine, the boff abilities are garbage in the offense and control aspect anymore though in PvE.
*edit addon*
At the end of the day the only specialized or focused ship to fly for maximum PvE effectiveness is tactical, with the best ships being those of a more hybrid nature. I gravitate toward playing my toons with a Cmdr Tac + Lt Cmdr Sci or Eng much more than any others. I also find those with say Cmdr Eng or Cmdr Sci with a Lt Cmdr Tac + another Tac to be effective enough for my taste.
Science captains are fine, the boff abilities are garbage in the offense and control aspect anymore though in PvE.
^This... Sci Captains are just fine it is the BOFF abilities which are trash these days. I mean it is easier to list the Science Abilities that are GOOD so here we go.
Hazard Emitters (You are nearly daft not to use these)
Transfer Shield Strength
Tractor Repulsers
Viral Matrix (If specced into it with DOFFS)
That is pretty much it... Science Team would almost make it in if not for the fact that it conflicts with Tactical Team which is far more useful and required. Polarized Hull is not bad but considering Attack Pattern Omega does so much more it is pretty much obsolete.
To get the full use out of Tyken's Rift you NEED to be in a serious drain setup already and cannot rely JUST on Tyken's. GW is... horrible... Just horrible... It cannot hold ANYTHING with an engine.
It's kind of funny, imho, that the Sci BOFF abilities that many folks consider to be fine - tend to be those Sci BOFF abilities that many folks think should be Eng BOFF abilities...
...which in turn can lead many to break out the /doublefacepalm instead of just the good ol' /facepalm.
It's kind of funny, imho, that the Sci BOFF abilities that many folks consider to be fine - tend to be those Sci BOFF abilities that many folks think should be Eng BOFF abilities...
...which in turn can lead many to break out the /doublefacepalm instead of just the good ol' /facepalm.
Completely agree!
Or my personal favorite, they think science captains should all be healers and since healing in space is the only thing science captains can do well that's all they should be doing.
Or that the particle attacks are perfectly fine even tho they are negated below any usefulness by 1 hitpoint of shield facing.
It's so ridiculous it's way way past funny these arguments that science skills in space are perfectly fine are now into the zone of stupidity.
...and I see there are 42 Sci BOFF abilities there.
Looking at those abilities, combining them (not separating for rank), I then see that I'm running the following abilities - and - how many copies:
GW 3 HE 9
JS 2 PH 5
PSW 1
SS 2 ST 7
TB 2
TBR 2
TR 1 TSS 7
VM 1
I wasn't surprised that 28 of the 42 abilities were heals/cleanses/resistance abilities.
Overall, when slotting an En Sci BOFF ability - 15 of 18 times (83.3%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With 2 or less En Sci - 13 of 14 times (92.9%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With a single En Sci - 2 of 2 times (100%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
There are 8 possible choices for an En Sci BOFF ability.
Overall, when slotting a Lt Sci BOFF ability - 11 of 14 times (78.6%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With 2 or less Lt Sci - 9 of 10 times (90%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With a single Lt Sci - 6 of 6 times (100%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
There are 15 possible choices for a Lt Sci BOFF ability.
Overall, when slotting a LCdr Sci BOFF ability - 2 of 7 times (28.6%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With a single LCdr Sci - 2 of 3 times (66.7%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
There are 18 possible choices for a LCdr Sci BOFF ability.
Obviously that's not representative of Sci out there in general, that's just me looking at what I've got there...though, I wonder - what do other players have when they look at their Sci, eh?
What gets me is how science skills have been chopped up, packaged and sold as "Unique" consoles to appeal to non science career captains.
Nadion Inversion console - photonic shockwave
Anti matter spread - Scramble sensors, jam targeting sensors
plasmotic leech - energy siphon
Grapler - Tractor bream
Resonance Cascade Modulator- Transfer shield strength
ect, ect.
So why would anyone want to play science then? You could roll a tac, sacrifice one console in a tactical ship and have your choice of reasonably effective science abilities too.
But can science captains do the same?
Are there any consoles that boost dps for science ships?
I know, I know, the old argument, if you want dps, roll a tactical, and it's a valid argument too, until you consider the fact that science abilities are no longer just available to science
captains anymore.
So I ask again, why would anyone want to roll a science captain now? Just slap on one of these consoles and you get dps AND some decent enough science abilities.
So much for: "If you want to have "science" abilities, roll a science caption.".....
Career classes are all becoming hybrids in this game. Everything has been watered down and spread around to make a buck. So why stop with science abilities then?
If DPS = money, Cryptic should make a console that would boost the hell out of a science/engineers captains beam only weapons dps for a while, I betcha that ship and console combo would sell like hotcakes.
That's pretty much what everyone's always been saying, it's offensive Sci that sucks, defensive sci is acceptable (maybe a little weak compared to similar eng abilities, but not too bad). The offensive sci abilities just don't have the stats to do what they're supposed to do.
That's pretty much what everyone's always been saying, it's offensive Sci that sucks, defensive sci is acceptable (maybe a little weak compared to similar eng abilities, but not too bad). The offensive sci abilities just don't have the stats to do what they're supposed to do.
But even if the "offensive" Sci abilities got some love - would folks give up their "defensive" Sci abilities for them?
Yes, for the folks that can run both - obviously some love for the "offensive" would be good.
Overall though, in regard to Sci - for a lot of folks it's going to be little more than an extension of their Eng...
HE on every ship I fly.
PH on only one ship which will be removed for TB soon.
TSS on not quite half.
ST on none at the moment.
GW on a third of them.
TB on about half.
ES on one, or less than one tenth lol.
What gets me is how science skills have been chopped up, packaged and sold as "Unique" consoles to appeal to non science career captains.
Nadion Inversion console - photonic shockwave
Anti matter spread - Scramble sensors, jam targeting sensors
plasmotic leech - energy siphon
Grapler - Tractor bream
Resonance Cascade Modulator- Transfer shield strength
ect, ect.
So why would anyone want to play science then? You could roll a tac, sacrifice one console in a tactical ship and have your choice of reasonably effective science abilities too.
But can science captains do the same?
Are there any consoles that boost dps for science ships?
I know, I know, the old argument, if you want dps, roll a tactical, and it's a valid argument too, until you consider the fact that science abilities are no longer just available to science
captains anymore.
So I ask again, why would anyone want to roll a science captain now? Just slap on one of these consoles and you get dps AND some decent enough science abilities.
So much for: "If you want to have "science" abilities, roll a science caption.".....
Career classes are all becoming hybrids in this game. Everything has been watered down and spread around to make a buck. So why stop with science abilities then?
If DPS = money, Cryptic should make a console that would boost the hell out of a science/engineers captains beam only weapons dps for a while, I betcha that ship and console combo would sell like hotcakes.
I prefer science for a few reasons...
#1 Subnuke/Sensor Scan
-Only Miracle Worker is more useful to my way of playing, however as any PvPer will attest to, Subnuke can be very effective and seeing as how most Sci abilities do some sort of heal/debuff, the lack of extra Captain heal evens out.
#2 I kinda like being the odd-man-out.
-Not the limited underdog, which is mostly the problem with it.
#3 Somewhere between the pew-pew-gogogo of tac and the 5mph/turns like a clock hand cruisers, are Sci. You can do a bit of both and your skill tree is likely to be more varied.
-Major issue here is not one sci ship can have 7 weapons or even a 4/2 layout so you are very limited in use of cannons even if you could equip them on anything but a Sci carrier.
But the main issue is not the Captains, but the BoFF abilities. Too easy to utilize by an escort while the reverse is not as true. Furthermore, outside of 2 console types, I can think of nothing even remotely as effective as extra tac or eng consoles. Even if not for DPS or durability, anything over 2 slots become the "universal consoles" area. Now make all uni consoles "sci" consoles and.......
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Furthermore, outside of 2 console types, I can think of nothing even remotely as effective as extra tac or eng consoles. Even if not for DPS or durability, anything over 2 slots become the "universal consoles" area. Now make all uni consoles "sci" consoles and.......
Hrmm, that got me curious - so I had to go look for the guys I listed before.
Fleet T'varo (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 5 Uni
MU Deep Space (2 Tac/3 Eng/4 Sci) - 1 Tac, 1 Eng, 4 Sci, 3 Uni
Hegh'ta (3 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 3 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
Chel Grett (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 1 Sci, 4 Uni
JHEC (4 Tac/4 Eng/2 Sci) - 3 Tac, 1 Eng, 1 Sci, 5 Uni
MU Advanced (4 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
MU Vo'Quv (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2 Tac, 3 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
MU Star (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci
MU Vor'cha (3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci) - 3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci
They're obviously in different stages of gearing, but I can look at each them to see that in the end they're all pretty much going to end up the same eventually.
Trying to keep their Tac as Tac, using a single Neut, then slotting Uni in Sci as space runs out.
That MU Deep will give up the second Tac before giving up the first Sci. The rest will drop Eng before Sci...keeping the single Mk XI Neut.
What gets me is how science skills have been chopped up, packaged and sold as "Unique" consoles to appeal to non science career captains.
Nadion Inversion console - photonic shockwave
Anti matter spread - Scramble sensors, jam targeting sensors
plasmotic leech - energy siphon
Grapler - Tractor bream
Resonance Cascade Modulator- Transfer shield strength
ect, ect.
So why would anyone want to play science then? You could roll a tac, sacrifice one console in a tactical ship and have your choice of reasonably effective science abilities too.
But can science captains do the same?
Are there any consoles that boost dps for science ships?
I know, I know, the old argument, if you want dps, roll a tactical, and it's a valid argument too, until you consider the fact that science abilities are no longer just available to science
captains anymore.
So I ask again, why would anyone want to roll a science captain now? Just slap on one of these consoles and you get dps AND some decent enough science abilities.
So much for: "If you want to have "science" abilities, roll a science caption.".....
Career classes are all becoming hybrids in this game. Everything has been watered down and spread around to make a buck. So why stop with science abilities then?
If DPS = money, Cryptic should make a console that would boost the hell out of a science/engineers captains beam only weapons dps for a while, I betcha that ship and console combo would sell like hotcakes.
I agree with you there. Every Fed/Klingon ship uses antimatter for example. one would think these would have been skills in alot of cases.
Hrmm, that got me curious - so I had to go look for the guys I listed before.
Fleet T'varo (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 5 Uni
MU Deep Space (2 Tac/3 Eng/4 Sci) - 1 Tac, 1 Eng, 4 Sci, 3 Uni
Hegh'ta (3 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 3 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
Chel Grett (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 1 Sci, 4 Uni
JHEC (4 Tac/4 Eng/2 Sci) - 3 Tac, 1 Eng, 1 Sci, 5 Uni
MU Advanced (4 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
MU Vo'Quv (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2 Tac, 3 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
MU Star (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci
MU Vor'cha (3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci) - 3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci
They're obviously in different stages of gearing, but I can look at each them to see that in the end they're all pretty much going to end up the same eventually.
Trying to keep their Tac as Tac, using a single Neut, then slotting Uni in Sci as space runs out.
That MU Deep will give up the second Tac before giving up the first Sci. The rest will drop Eng before Sci...keeping the single Mk XI Neut.
But I'll venture to guess out of all the ships, the sci consoles are of the same 2-3 types? I can't imagine sacrificing a tac console (per a uni) for say +3.2 to shield emitters outside of a purely heal/support build. Which was rather what was mentioned that sci is almost limited to.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
But I'll venture to guess out of all the ships, the sci consoles are of the same 2-3 types? I can't imagine sacrificing a tac console (per a uni) for say +3.2 to shield emitters outside of a purely heal/support build. Which was rather what was mentioned that sci is almost limited to.
Hrmmm...
MU Deep Space (2 Tac/3 Eng/4 Sci) - 4x Sensor Probes or 2x Grav/2x Part
Hegh'ta (3 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 3x Part
Chel Grett (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - Field Gen
JHEC (4 Tac/4 Eng/2 Sci) - Field Gen
MU Advanced (4 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci) - Emitter, 2x Flow
MU Vo'Quv (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2x Emitter Array, Part
MU Star (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2x Emitter Array, Bio
MU Vor'cha (3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci) - Emitter Array, Bio
The MU DSSV gives up a Tac for a GPG.
The JHEC gives up a Tac for a Nukara.
No doubt there are issues when it comes to the Sci Consoles - take into consideration duration, CDs, availability of the powers in general and then look at what's there...
But even if the "offensive" Sci abilities got some love - would folks give up their "defensive" Sci abilities for them?
Yes, for the folks that can run both - obviously some love for the "offensive" would be good.
Overall though, in regard to Sci - for a lot of folks it's going to be little more than an extension of their Eng...
But I think that's good. Escorts and cruisers can both stand on their own strengths offensively (although you do need to work at the cruiser build a little more, and beams could use a tweak so they don't rely on Marion so heavily), with just some healing support from their sci slots. It's sci ships that are designed to rely on sci offense, and they have enough sci slots to run both the low level heals the other classes use and some offensive abilities as well.
MU Deep Space (2 Tac/3 Eng/4 Sci) - 4x Sensor Probes or 2x Grav/2x Part
Hegh'ta (3 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 3x Part
Chel Grett (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - Field Gen
JHEC (4 Tac/4 Eng/2 Sci) - Field Gen
MU Advanced (4 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci) - Emitter, 2x Flow
MU Vo'Quv (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2x Emitter Array, Part
MU Star (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2x Emitter Array, Bio
MU Vor'cha (3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci) - Emitter Array, Bio
The MU DSSV gives up a Tac for a GPG.
The JHEC gives up a Tac for a Nukara.
No doubt there are issues when it comes to the Sci Consoles - take into consideration duration, CDs, availability of the powers in general and then look at what's there...
Let me go back and mark those in Red that I can't imagine using. Mark those in Yellow that I could only rarely imagine using.
Let me do the same for Engineering Consoles though - same Red and Yellow.
Booster Modulator - boosts Aux Power
Plasma Distribution Manifold - boosts Weapon Power
Field Emitter - boosts Shield Power
Injector Assembly - boosts Engine Power
Neutronium Alloy - boosts Kinetic/Energy Resist Diburnium Hull Plating - boosts Phaser/Disruptor Resist Ablative Hull Armor - boosts Phaser, Disruptor, Plasma, Tetryon Resist Electroceramic Hull Plating - boosts Plasma, Tetryon Tetraburnium Hull Armor - boosts Plasma, Tetryon, Polaron, Antiproton Parametallic Hull Plating - boosts Polarong/Antiproton Resist RCS Accelerator - boosts Turn Rate
Emergency Force Fields - boost Crew Resist
SIF Generator - boosts Hull Repair EPS Flow Regulator - boosts Power Transfer Rate
Which is why I usually give up Eng before Sci...
Ok, I'm gonna get a little side-tracked here while maintaining the "Sci is borked" theme.
I noticed you listed both Crew consoles under yellow...
I am truely scratching my head over this as I'll get to in a minute but first off, if we discount those, you are essentially saying you use heavy on the Emitter Arrays and light on the Field Generators. More shield or more shield heal? is basically the question there.
Flow Caps/Grav Gen/& Part Gen all have limited uses, ASSUMING you don't need the slots for one of the shield consoles. [Sensors I'll get to in a min.] So I'm counting 2 serve-the-same-purpose useful consoles that every tac in the game uses and a few "if you have space" ones for sci ships which for that matter include everything except sensors and bios in my opinion. Perhaps part gens being the second most useful after the Cap/or/Heal dilemma.
Now as for sensors, I'd like to say that I have tested an over 99 sensors (was it 119 maybe?) vs a cloaked ship with a Subterfuge BoFF and guess what? I didn't see him even at 2.5km [-_-]. Now I know sensors have other uses but far as I am concerned tac has an "I win" button vs Sensors so they are now added to my list of useless sci TRIBBLE.
Which by the way is lead by anything related to crew. My first hint is that if I'm not mistaken a Biofunction MK XII purple carries a 40% improvement? Well. That being said a crew recovery nurse (GREEN quality!) carries a 100% boost to ALL ships when equipped. That's right, a 50k doff replaces 25 top end consoles scattered on 10 ships. Yeah a tac can use em just fine. Don't want to waste a space roster doff slot? No problem, use one that equips to GROUND! Yup they exist. Which leads me to point #2, WTF is crew recovery/resistance/does it even matter??? Well, it's arguable that crew recovery may help. But considering how I just explained how the Bio consoles themselves are beyond junk [agreed or did I miss something?], that leaves us with Crew Resist. A #or % that last time I checked is not even quantifiable in game. I seriously doubt it has any impact whatsoever on performance if it even really exists. But that's an engy console so rly moot to our discussion, just thought I'd toss that in.
Funny thing is; I don't see ANY of these problems with tac consoles or abilities. If anything a flawed tac something is to player ADVANTAGE if you know about it. I mean does a few extra notches in grav gens REALLY make a difference vs a Plasmonic Leach...? In fact I do put uni consoles in tac sometimes. Not because it's smart but because I figure I'm not gonna get DPS anyhow (on some ships) so why bother. Somedays I just wanna run 1 turret and put something more useful in my sci ships weapon slots. I swear if I could put sci consoles there, I would sometimes, as you need alot more boost than we get from 1 or even 3 now. -_-
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
But I think that's good. Escorts and cruisers can both stand on their own strengths offensively (although you do need to work at the cruiser build a little more, and beams could use a tweak so they don't rely on Marion so heavily), with just some healing support from their sci slots. It's sci ships that are designed to rely on sci offense, and they have enough sci slots to run both the low level heals the other classes use and some offensive abilities as well.
If Sci has no offense, it's what, a floating castle?
I see all types tanking. Escorts zip around and get high defense, cruisers mosey around and laugh at less than 2-3 attackers, scis just heal best. Offensively, Escorts have DPS, Cruisers have potential DPS and more time to use it, Scis have what? Less weapons, BoFF abilities everyone has, and a bit more shield abilities and healing. Where's the offensive? You say it's balanced? Then by that token an escort should have MINIMAL defensive capabilities which is not the case by a long sot. All classes are meant to have some of everything. Best solution I can gather is a default proc specific to each sci ship no matter what weapon(s) you use. that and/or much more capable abilities like grav well or viral matrix. As it stands, sci is fun but nothing but smoke and mirrors outside of a Temporal Science Vessel or something.
I speak, OFC, as always from a PvP POV. PvE is such a joke, even on elite, that any lvl 30 (dare I say maybe even lvl 20?) ship piloted by a good player can conquer anything except maybe Hive or Terradome, just not as quickly.
It is rather obvious the pew-pew escorts don't like being disabled for more than 1-2 seconds. Well... Sci caps don't like being pop'd in 1-2 seconds without a fair chance at some sort of offense. What's unfair about that?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
If Sci has no offense, it's what, a floating castle?
I see all types tanking. Escorts zip around and get high defense, cruisers mosey around and laugh at less than 2-3 attackers, scis just heal best. Offensively, Escorts have DPS, Cruisers have potential DPS and more time to use it, Scis have what? Less weapons, BoFF abilities everyone has, and a bit more shield abilities and healing. Where's the offensive? You say it's balanced?
You really misunderstood where I was going there. I firmly believe that offensive sci abilities desperately need to be drastically buffed, at least from my PvE perspective, where they're pretty much all pointless at this point (you can see my post on page 6 for my view on that situation). What I was arguing is that we don't need to worry about the fact that, even after that buff, escorts and cruisers are unlikely to use offensive sci abilities instead of the defensive ones they currently use, and in fact that's a good thing as it avoids making the ships that are solid already OP by attempting to fix the sci ships. (Another thing that could be done to help with this would be to make much of the buff come from skill points, so you have to invest in an ability to make it good.)
I noticed you listed both Crew consoles under yellow...
I am truely scratching my head over this as I'll get to in a minute but first off, if we discount those, you are essentially saying you use heavy on the Emitter Arrays and light on the Field Generators. More shield or more shield heal? is basically the question there.
Flow Caps/Grav Gen/& Part Gen all have limited uses, ASSUMING you don't need the slots for one of the shield consoles. [Sensors I'll get to in a min.] So I'm counting 2 serve-the-same-purpose useful consoles that every tac in the game uses and a few "if you have space" ones for sci ships which for that matter include everything except sensors and bios in my opinion. Perhaps part gens being the second most useful after the Cap/or/Heal dilemma.
Now as for sensors, I'd like to say that I have tested an over 99 sensors (was it 119 maybe?) vs a cloaked ship with a Subterfuge BoFF and guess what? I didn't see him even at 2.5km [-_-]. Now I know sensors have other uses but far as I am concerned tac has an "I win" button vs Sensors so they are now added to my list of useless sci TRIBBLE.
Hrmmm, my Snooper...
Base Perception: 5325.38
(w/o 4825.38+ Stealth, I'll see them at 10km)
(they'd need >5200.38 Stealth for me not to see them at 2.5km)
EPtA1 Perception (30s): 5475.38
(w/o 4975.38+ Stealth, I'll see them at 10km)
(they'd need >5350.38 Stealth for me not to see them at 2.5km)
Sensor Scan Perception (20s): 5736.63
(w/o 5236.63+ Stealth, I'll see them at 10km)
(they'd need >5611.63 Stealth for me not to see them at 2.5km)
EPtA1 + Sensor Scan Perception (20s): 5886.63
(w/o 5386.63+ Stealth, I'll see them at 10km)
(they'd need >5761.63 Stealth for me not to see them at 2.5km)
...that's just a MU Deep Space w/ 4x Sensor Probes Mk XI and a Jem Deflector. No Nebby console, etc, etc, etc.
My Sci Hegh'ta (@104 Aux) has 5038.4 Stealth and can be seen by my unbuffed Snooper at 5.7km.
My Sci Fleet T'varo (@105 Aux, Infiltrator Captain, Subterfuge BOFF) has 5319.7 Stealth (@0 SC) and can be seen by my unbuffed Snooper at 0.1km (but hey, at least he's not raiding the fridge, right?). Notice I said @0 SC...0 Singularity Charge. @100 SC (5 Pips), he's got 4919.7 Stealth. The unbuffed Snooper can see him at 8.1km. Yep, for those that didn't know - building Singularity Charge debuffs Stealth (-400 Stealth @5 Pips).
Which by the way is lead by anything related to crew. My first hint is that if I'm not mistaken a Biofunction MK XII purple carries a 40% improvement? Well. That being said a crew recovery nurse (GREEN quality!) carries a 100% boost to ALL ships when equipped. That's right, a 50k doff replaces 25 top end consoles scattered on 10 ships. Yeah a tac can use em just fine. Don't want to waste a space roster doff slot? No problem, use one that equips to GROUND! Yup they exist. Which leads me to point #2, WTF is crew recovery/resistance/does it even matter??? Well, it's arguable that crew recovery may help. But considering how I just explained how the Bio consoles themselves are beyond junk [agreed or did I miss something?], that leaves us with Crew Resist. A #or % that last time I checked is not even quantifiable in game. I seriously doubt it has any impact whatsoever on performance if it even really exists. But that's an engy console so rly moot to our discussion, just thought I'd toss that in.
MU Star Cruiser/MU Vor'cha Battle Cruiser Emergency Force Fields Mk XI +37.5 Able/Alive Crew Resist Biofunction Monitor Mk XI +37.5% Crew Recovery Jem'Hadar Resilient Shields Mk XI +50 Crew Death/Disable Resist
A Green <75% (+100%) Medic is 148,999 EC. Blue (+150%) is 1,750,000 EC. Purple (+200%) is 14,400,000 EC.
A Green <75% (+100%) Nurse is 34,000 EC. Blue (+150%) is 1,000,000 EC. Purple (+200%) is 18,000,000 EC.
Only help below 75% in combat, no?
I don't PvP with those guys - last year sometime, I did dork around with the Crew stuff in PvP...and it was moot - Theta. PvE on the other hand, can be interesting at times. Those two consoles wouldn't likely survive those guys gearing up - but since they were there, I went ahead and colored them yellow...
Funny thing is; I don't see ANY of these problems with tac consoles or abilities. If anything a flawed tac something is to player ADVANTAGE if you know about it. I mean does a few extra notches in grav gens REALLY make a difference vs a Plasmonic Leach...? In fact I do put uni consoles in tac sometimes. Not because it's smart but because I figure I'm not gonna get DPS anyhow (on some ships) so why bother. Somedays I just wanna run 1 turret and put something more useful in my sci ships weapon slots and I swear if I could put sci consoles there, I would as you need alot more boost than we get from 1 now. -_-
Yep, the MU DSSV doesn't care about weapon DPS - not like there was going to be much coming from 2 Tac Consoles and only a Lt Tac BOFF. The JHEC slotted the Nukara for the +10% Beam Accuracy - cause I like to play the crit game where the Accuracy Overflow can come in handy.
Tac consoles - yep, pretty much buffing the things that most folks are doing most of the time - firing weapons. Sci consoles (and Eng) outside of very few things, well - they're just not - well, like Tac consoles. /shrug
I mean, c'mon - somebody equips 3-5 Tac Consoles and somebody equips 3-5 Sci Consoles - big difference of what's going on there.
Again, part of the reason that I think that there's so much to do - it might require a rebuild from the ground up...meh.
But I think that's good. Escorts and cruisers can both stand on their own strengths offensively (although you do need to work at the cruiser build a little more, and beams could use a tweak so they don't rely on Marion so heavily), with just some healing support from their sci slots. It's sci ships that are designed to rely on sci offense, and they have enough sci slots to run both the low level heals the other classes use and some offensive abilities as well.
My concern wasn't with the offensive side with that as much as what that defensive side provides to them. Those 1-3 Sci abilities help make them less glass when used in conjunction with their Eng as well. It was basically more of my same old - same old move that stuff to Eng, add more Sci - show Sci some love - add to the bag o' dirty tricks and all that jazz.
Have more things that work off of certain skills - so folks can focus better and have more to show for that. As is, well - look at how many of the abilities based on the same skills actually end up at odds with each other, eh?
MU Deep Space (2 Tac/3 Eng/4 Sci) - 4x Sensor Probes or 2x Grav/2x Part
Hegh'ta (3 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 3x Part
Chel Grett (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - Field Gen
JHEC (4 Tac/4 Eng/2 Sci) - Field Gen
MU Advanced (4 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci) - Emitter, 2x Flow
MU Vo'Quv (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2x Emitter Array, Part
MU Star (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2x Emitter Array, Bio
MU Vor'cha (3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci) - Emitter Array, Bio
The MU DSSV gives up a Tac for a GPG.
The JHEC gives up a Tac for a Nukara.
No doubt there are issues when it comes to the Sci Consoles - take into consideration duration, CDs, availability of the powers in general and then look at what's there...
You would EVER consider using Biofunction Monitor? Really? That is probably the MOST useless console in the ENTIRE game... and that is saying something.
Emergency Force Fields is not really much better. Two Torp hits later and your crew is vaporized regardless of if you originally had 50 or 3,000 crew. The Crew Mechanic in STO barely works at all and if you waste any slots to protect them then you really need to stop and examine very carefully what you are doing because you are working under some bad assumptions.
You would EVER consider using Biofunction Monitor? Really? That is probably the MOST useless console in the ENTIRE game... and that is saying something.
Emergency Force Fields is not really much better. Two Torp hits later and your crew is vaporized regardless of if you originally had 50 or 3,000 crew. The Crew Mechanic in STO barely works at all and if you waste any slots to protect them then you really need to stop and examine very carefully what you are doing because you are working under some bad assumptions.
I wouldn't use them with a crew of 50 or 3,000. The Crew system's massively borked at those ends of the spectrum. That's not based on an assumption, mind you.
edit: Also, I noticed you were an Empire Veteran. Crew stuff is more borked for KDF than Feds for some reason (that's even before taking into account any of the Leadership stuff). There was a PvP thread from last December where folks pointed out problems out the wahzoo with all sorts of things...but it never got any dev attention. Basically, everybody decided in the end in some of the other discussions that it was moot because of Theta so it was dropped...
My concern wasn't with the offensive side with that as much as what that defensive side provides to them. Those 1-3 Sci abilities help make them less glass when used in conjunction with their Eng as well. It was basically more of my same old - same old move that stuff to Eng, add more Sci - show Sci some love - add to the bag o' dirty tricks and all that jazz.
Have more things that work off of certain skills - so folks can focus better and have more to show for that. As is, well - look at how many of the abilities based on the same skills actually end up at odds with each other, eh?
The thing is, you have to either eliminate sci slots on escorts and cruisers entirely (not gonna happen) or give them either offensive or defensive abilities to put there. Because the offensive abilities have to be made strong enough to actually make up for the weaknesses of sci ships giving them to escorts and cruisers would create a major balance issue, so they have to have defensive sci abilities. (Plus, I do kind of like the theory of having sci as the mage abilities, with some light healing and a variety of unusual attacks.)
Creating more synergy on skills would certainly be nice, although I'm not entirely sure how to do it, given the limit to how many abilities any one ship can run (which means that even if you could come up with something new, it would be hard to fit it all in).
I wouldn't use them with a crew of 50 or 3,000. The Crew system's massively borked at those ends of the spectrum. That's not based on an assumption, mind you.
edit: Also, I noticed you were an Empire Veteran. Crew stuff is more borked for KDF than Feds for some reason (that's even before taking into account any of the Leadership stuff). There was a PvP thread from last December where folks pointed out problems out the wahzoo with all sorts of things...but it never got any dev attention. Basically, everybody decided in the end in some of the other discussions that it was moot because of Theta so it was dropped...
It is massively borked at every part of the spectrum. I was part of that big threadnaught and yeah... I am disappointed at how it got no official acknowledgement at all... We should either take out the Crew Mechanic (which fails to work at present) or finally fix it.
Speaking of Threadnaughts that die quietly, the real problem is not so much Sci or anything specific is "broke" but that our needs are never tended to. Instead we get more & more grind, and lots of shiny things to buy. This has inspired me to approach this all other issues from a different angle.
An outside (of the forums) medium for players to decide what needs to be fixed/changed/or whatever within reason. If the majority vote lists "fixing" sci consoles in the top 10, great. If not, something else gets better. But us rambling on with each other in the forums is pointless. Even if 50 people unanimously agreed on something, no Dev cares. Perhaps it's our job to do our discussions (in independent unison) first, then bring the short list here.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Comments
Thanks. Refreshing
Player and forumite formerly known as FEELTHETHUNDER
Expatriot Might Characters in EXILE
Hazard Emitters
Jam Sensors
Mask Energy Signature
Polarize Hull
Science Team (yes, a combo of Eng/Tac)
Tachyon Beam
Tractor Beam
Transfer Shield Strength
Charged Particle Burst
Energy Siphon
Feedback Pulse
Photonic Officer
Tractor Beam Repulsors
Scramble Sensors
Tyken's Rift
Gravity Well
Photonic Shockwave
Viral Matrix
Subsystem Target on Science Vessels?
Sensor Analysis on Science Vessels?
Carriers as Science Vessels?
How many Blue Shirts were on Voyager?
Space Skills
Tactical Systems
Engineering Systems
Science and Operation Systems
The following is heavily biased toward Starfleet, but then again - that's basically what we've had for 47 some years, no?
Command Division
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Command_division
Operations Division
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Operations_division
Sciences Division
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sciences_division
Which if one were to take it a step further, read through many of the main characters we've seen in the shows - many of them were "dual spec" or even "tri spec".
There were Ops (Tac/Eng) characters - Ops (Eng)/Sci characters - etc, etc, etc.
It is a much more complex system than we currently have in STO.
Heck, look at many of the ships, eh? 3/2 vs. 2/3, Lt/En & Lt vs. Lt & Lt/En, etc, etc, etc.
Has the manner in which Cryptic introduced Sci into STO created an expectation that not only cannot be met...but never existed in the Star Trek Universe in the first place?
Could Sci, in a twisted manner - be made more powerful - were it to better reflect the shows/movies?
The Sci/Tac or the Sci/Eng...piloting the Sci-leaning Escort, Cruiser, Light Cruiser, etc, etc, etc...?
Janeway was a science captain, though she was more insane than science.
Janeway had been a Science Officer aboard the Al-Batani, but that doesn't mean she was a Science Captain when she commanded Voyager. The Intrepid-class vessels were designed as long-term exploration vessels. Not much different than the Connie, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy... Voyager's first mission though was to capture the Val Jean.
One can see (though some would say it is conjecture), how the Sovereign and Intrepid represent a splitting of the roles of the Galaxy class. Where the Galaxy class was tasked with both exploration and "gunboat" diplomacy - the Intrepid was the explorer and the Sovereign was the "diplomat"...
In a sense, it kind of dates back to what happened with the Miranda, eh? There it is a Light Cruiser, but how many folks think of it as the USS Reliant and the role it played in Project Genesis?
Consider the command crew of the USS Voyager, eh?
Janeway - Captain
Chakotay - First Officer
Tuvok - Tac/Sec Officer
Paris - Helmsman
Torres - Chief Engineer
Kim - Operations Officer
The Doctor - Chief Medical Officer
Seven of Nine - Astrometrics Officer
That doesn't quite mesh with
Cmdr, LCdr, En, Lt, Lt...eh?
Cmdr, LCdr, Lt, Lt, En....hrmmm...
edit: But that kind of digresses some - makes it look worse for Sci than I intended. Sci never played the role it does in STO, but that doesn't mean it didn't play any role in Star Trek - it obviously did. Yet, were not prominent "Sci" characters also of a generally mixed spec? Tac/Sci, Eng/Sci, etc, etc, etc? Even going back to Janeway, as part of being part of the Command structure - she was no longer just a Sci.
edit: Basically, does Sci have enough to stand on its own in that fashion? Has it caused it to be weakened? Obviously, for our guys to be "Command" - as far as Starfleet goes, they had to come from somewhere - they're going to have a mix of skills. When it comes to vessels - well, Sci just didn't exist like it does in STO. Which is good, kind of - it's moving forward and all that...but some things are just kind of way off, imho.
Consider the Odyssey, eh? Tac - Ops - Sci. Still a cruiser. Then reconsider the Intrepid...Tac - Ops - Sci...tada...still a light cruiser. I'm somewhat surprised STO didn't go more that way, but with the plethora of sales they've made off of Escorts and the DS9/Defiant crowd...it's likely a good thing they didn't.
edit: I have 4 Eng (2 KDF, Fed), 2 Tac (1 KDF, 1 Fed), and 3 Sci (1 KDF, 1 KDF-aligned Rom, and 1 Fed)...
As for my 3 Sci...
KDF: Hegh'ta w/ 4x Sci BOFFs... Sci Spammage Galore!
KDF-aligned Rom: Fleet T'varo...more Tac focused Sci.
Fed: MU Deep Space...peek-a-boo, I see you...now sit!
Course, if I'm going to do any team PvE...the KDF Sci is going to switch out weapons, add in some Tac/Eng BOFFs. The Fed Sci is going to hop into one of his various Escorts.
Cause it's not only the way Sci itself was added into the game in a muddled fashion - but it is also the way that Sci was not added into the PvE content that adds to the issue.
That's one of the reasons that I feel Sci needs to be redone from the ground up - parts of the game need to be redone from the ground up...so that the Sci can feel as if it was meant to be there from the start and that the game has room for Sci.
I know it will never happen, but sometimes I dream...
(PvE perspective btw)
Gravity Well - Has a difficult time keeping the enemy bunched up anymore, not to mention it's primary use is the hold, not the damage, and therefore I can simply stick to GW1 which a plethora of escort/cruiser/destroyers can bring to the party.
Energy Syphon - A drain ability who's primary purpose is getting the buff, kinda messed up.
Tykens Rift - Any target worth draining is pretty much immune, keeping any non immune targets within it's effects are more trouble than the pathetic drain is worth.
Tachyon Beam - Drains so little against NPCs you hardly notice.
Charged Particle Burst - see above
Photonic Shockwave - Damage is pretty low compared to weapons and many important NPCs are immune to the stun effect
Viral Matrix - Once again a blanket immunity on anything worth using this on, it doesn't effect shields, and lastly the things I would like to use it on (say spheres for instance) just pop EptE to remove the useful portion.
Tractor Beam Repulsars - Great for trolling..... damage is impressive though if you know how to min/max it.
Honestly I find the number one sci ability in my builds (aside from HE) to be the good old tractor beam to get the accuracy overflow, ensign works well enough for that.
Science captains are fine, the boff abilities are garbage in the offense and control aspect anymore though in PvE.
*edit addon*
At the end of the day the only specialized or focused ship to fly for maximum PvE effectiveness is tactical, with the best ships being those of a more hybrid nature. I gravitate toward playing my toons with a Cmdr Tac + Lt Cmdr Sci or Eng much more than any others. I also find those with say Cmdr Eng or Cmdr Sci with a Lt Cmdr Tac + another Tac to be effective enough for my taste.
^This... Sci Captains are just fine it is the BOFF abilities which are trash these days. I mean it is easier to list the Science Abilities that are GOOD so here we go.
Hazard Emitters (You are nearly daft not to use these)
Transfer Shield Strength
Tractor Repulsers
Viral Matrix (If specced into it with DOFFS)
That is pretty much it... Science Team would almost make it in if not for the fact that it conflicts with Tactical Team which is far more useful and required. Polarized Hull is not bad but considering Attack Pattern Omega does so much more it is pretty much obsolete.
To get the full use out of Tyken's Rift you NEED to be in a serious drain setup already and cannot rely JUST on Tyken's. GW is... horrible... Just horrible... It cannot hold ANYTHING with an engine.
...which in turn can lead many to break out the /doublefacepalm instead of just the good ol' /facepalm.
Completely agree!
Or my personal favorite, they think science captains should all be healers and since healing in space is the only thing science captains can do well that's all they should be doing.
Or that the particle attacks are perfectly fine even tho they are negated below any usefulness by 1 hitpoint of shield facing.
It's so ridiculous it's way way past funny these arguments that science skills in space are perfectly fine are now into the zone of stupidity.
Fleet T'varo w/ Reman Sci (KDF-aligned)
THY1, TS2, APO1, DPB3
TT1
EPtE1, AtS1
PH1, TBR1, GW1
ST1, HE2
MU Deep Space /w Alien Sci
TT1, TS2
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtS1
PH1, HE2, TB3, GW3
JS1, TSS2, SS2
Hegh'ta w/ Alien Sci
PH1, HE2, GW1, PSW3
TB1, TSS2, VM1
JS1, SS1
ST1, TR1
Chel Grett w/ Alien Eng (Fed)
TT1, FAW2, APO1, APO3
THY1, TS2
EPtS1, AtS1
EPtW1
PH1, HE2, TSS3
JHEC w/ Alien Eng (KDF)
TT1, FAW2, DPA2, APO3
EPtW1, AtB1, DEM2
EPtS1, AtB1
ST1, HE2
PH1
MU Advanced w/ Alien Tac
TT1, BO2, APO1, CRF3
TS1, CSV2, APO1
EPtW1, EPtS2
HE1, TSS2
ST1
MU Vo'Quv w/ Alien Tac
TT1, APD1, FAW3
EPtS1, RSP1, AtS2
EPtW1, ET2
ST1, HE2, TSS3, TBR3
MU Star w/ Alien Eng
TT1, APD1
EPtS1, RSP1, ET3, AtS3
EPtS1, ExS1, ExS2
HE1, TSS2
ST1
MU Vor'cha w/ Alien Eng
TT1, APD1
EPtS1, RSP1, ET3, AtS3
EPtS1, ExS1, ExS2
HE1, TSS2
ST1
...and I see there are 42 Sci BOFF abilities there.
Looking at those abilities, combining them (not separating for rank), I then see that I'm running the following abilities - and - how many copies:
GW 3
HE 9
JS 2
PH 5
PSW 1
SS 2
ST 7
TB 2
TBR 2
TR 1
TSS 7
VM 1
I wasn't surprised that 28 of the 42 abilities were heals/cleanses/resistance abilities.
Overall, when slotting an En Sci BOFF ability - 15 of 18 times (83.3%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With 2 or less En Sci - 13 of 14 times (92.9%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With a single En Sci - 2 of 2 times (100%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
There are 8 possible choices for an En Sci BOFF ability.
Overall, when slotting a Lt Sci BOFF ability - 11 of 14 times (78.6%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With 2 or less Lt Sci - 9 of 10 times (90%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With a single Lt Sci - 6 of 6 times (100%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
There are 15 possible choices for a Lt Sci BOFF ability.
Overall, when slotting a LCdr Sci BOFF ability - 2 of 7 times (28.6%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
With a single LCdr Sci - 2 of 3 times (66.7%), I slotted one of those Green abilities.
There are 18 possible choices for a LCdr Sci BOFF ability.
Obviously that's not representative of Sci out there in general, that's just me looking at what I've got there...though, I wonder - what do other players have when they look at their Sci, eh?
Is it mainly HE, PH, ST, and TSS as well?
Nadion Inversion console - photonic shockwave
Anti matter spread - Scramble sensors, jam targeting sensors
plasmotic leech - energy siphon
Grapler - Tractor bream
Resonance Cascade Modulator- Transfer shield strength
ect, ect.
So why would anyone want to play science then? You could roll a tac, sacrifice one console in a tactical ship and have your choice of reasonably effective science abilities too.
But can science captains do the same?
Are there any consoles that boost dps for science ships?
I know, I know, the old argument, if you want dps, roll a tactical, and it's a valid argument too, until you consider the fact that science abilities are no longer just available to science
captains anymore.
So I ask again, why would anyone want to roll a science captain now? Just slap on one of these consoles and you get dps AND some decent enough science abilities.
So much for: "If you want to have "science" abilities, roll a science caption.".....
Career classes are all becoming hybrids in this game. Everything has been watered down and spread around to make a buck. So why stop with science abilities then?
If DPS = money, Cryptic should make a console that would boost the hell out of a science/engineers captains beam only weapons dps for a while, I betcha that ship and console combo would sell like hotcakes.
That's pretty much what everyone's always been saying, it's offensive Sci that sucks, defensive sci is acceptable (maybe a little weak compared to similar eng abilities, but not too bad). The offensive sci abilities just don't have the stats to do what they're supposed to do.
But even if the "offensive" Sci abilities got some love - would folks give up their "defensive" Sci abilities for them?
Yes, for the folks that can run both - obviously some love for the "offensive" would be good.
Overall though, in regard to Sci - for a lot of folks it's going to be little more than an extension of their Eng...
HE on every ship I fly.
PH on only one ship which will be removed for TB soon.
TSS on not quite half.
ST on none at the moment.
GW on a third of them.
TB on about half.
ES on one, or less than one tenth lol.
I prefer science for a few reasons...
#1 Subnuke/Sensor Scan
-Only Miracle Worker is more useful to my way of playing, however as any PvPer will attest to, Subnuke can be very effective and seeing as how most Sci abilities do some sort of heal/debuff, the lack of extra Captain heal evens out.
#2 I kinda like being the odd-man-out.
-Not the limited underdog, which is mostly the problem with it.
#3 Somewhere between the pew-pew-gogogo of tac and the 5mph/turns like a clock hand cruisers, are Sci. You can do a bit of both and your skill tree is likely to be more varied.
-Major issue here is not one sci ship can have 7 weapons or even a 4/2 layout so you are very limited in use of cannons even if you could equip them on anything but a Sci carrier.
But the main issue is not the Captains, but the BoFF abilities. Too easy to utilize by an escort while the reverse is not as true. Furthermore, outside of 2 console types, I can think of nothing even remotely as effective as extra tac or eng consoles. Even if not for DPS or durability, anything over 2 slots become the "universal consoles" area. Now make all uni consoles "sci" consoles and.......
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
Hrmm, that got me curious - so I had to go look for the guys I listed before.
Fleet T'varo (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 5 Uni
MU Deep Space (2 Tac/3 Eng/4 Sci) - 1 Tac, 1 Eng, 4 Sci, 3 Uni
Hegh'ta (3 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 3 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
Chel Grett (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 1 Sci, 4 Uni
JHEC (4 Tac/4 Eng/2 Sci) - 3 Tac, 1 Eng, 1 Sci, 5 Uni
MU Advanced (4 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci) - 4 Tac, 1 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
MU Vo'Quv (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2 Tac, 3 Eng, 3 Sci, 1 Uni
MU Star (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci
MU Vor'cha (3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci) - 3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci
They're obviously in different stages of gearing, but I can look at each them to see that in the end they're all pretty much going to end up the same eventually.
Trying to keep their Tac as Tac, using a single Neut, then slotting Uni in Sci as space runs out.
That MU Deep will give up the second Tac before giving up the first Sci. The rest will drop Eng before Sci...keeping the single Mk XI Neut.
I agree with you there. Every Fed/Klingon ship uses antimatter for example. one would think these would have been skills in alot of cases.
But I'll venture to guess out of all the ships, the sci consoles are of the same 2-3 types? I can't imagine sacrificing a tac console (per a uni) for say +3.2 to shield emitters outside of a purely heal/support build. Which was rather what was mentioned that sci is almost limited to.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
Hrmmm...
MU Deep Space (2 Tac/3 Eng/4 Sci) - 4x Sensor Probes or 2x Grav/2x Part
Hegh'ta (3 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - 3x Part
Chel Grett (4 Tac/3 Eng/3 Sci) - Field Gen
JHEC (4 Tac/4 Eng/2 Sci) - Field Gen
MU Advanced (4 Tac, 2 Eng, 3 Sci) - Emitter, 2x Flow
MU Vo'Quv (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2x Emitter Array, Part
MU Star (2 Tac, 4 Eng, 3 Sci) - 2x Emitter Array, Bio
MU Vor'cha (3 Tac, 4 Eng, 2 Sci) - Emitter Array, Bio
The MU DSSV gives up a Tac for a GPG.
The JHEC gives up a Tac for a Nukara.
No doubt there are issues when it comes to the Sci Consoles - take into consideration duration, CDs, availability of the powers in general and then look at what's there...
Countermeasure System - boosts CMS
Emitter Array - boosts Shield Emitters
Flow Capacitor - boosts Flow Caps
Graviton Generator - boosts Grav Gens
Inertial Dampeners - boosts Inertial Damps
Particle Generator - boosts Part Gens
Power Insulator - boosts Insulators
Sensor Probes - boosts Sensors
Stealth Module - boosts Stealth
Biofunction Monitor - boosts Crew Recovery Rate
Field Generator - boosts max Shield cap
Shield Emitter Amplifier - boosts Shield Regen Rate
Let me go back and mark those in Red that I can't imagine using. Mark those in Yellow that I could only rarely imagine using.
Let me do the same for Engineering Consoles though - same Red and Yellow.
Booster Modulator - boosts Aux Power
Plasma Distribution Manifold - boosts Weapon Power
Field Emitter - boosts Shield Power
Injector Assembly - boosts Engine Power
Neutronium Alloy - boosts Kinetic/Energy Resist
Diburnium Hull Plating - boosts Phaser/Disruptor Resist
Ablative Hull Armor - boosts Phaser, Disruptor, Plasma, Tetryon Resist
Electroceramic Hull Plating - boosts Plasma, Tetryon
Tetraburnium Hull Armor - boosts Plasma, Tetryon, Polaron, Antiproton
Parametallic Hull Plating - boosts Polarong/Antiproton Resist
RCS Accelerator - boosts Turn Rate
Emergency Force Fields - boost Crew Resist
SIF Generator - boosts Hull Repair
EPS Flow Regulator - boosts Power Transfer Rate
Which is why I usually give up Eng before Sci...
But I think that's good. Escorts and cruisers can both stand on their own strengths offensively (although you do need to work at the cruiser build a little more, and beams could use a tweak so they don't rely on Marion so heavily), with just some healing support from their sci slots. It's sci ships that are designed to rely on sci offense, and they have enough sci slots to run both the low level heals the other classes use and some offensive abilities as well.
Ok, I'm gonna get a little side-tracked here while maintaining the "Sci is borked" theme.
I noticed you listed both Crew consoles under yellow...
I am truely scratching my head over this as I'll get to in a minute but first off, if we discount those, you are essentially saying you use heavy on the Emitter Arrays and light on the Field Generators. More shield or more shield heal? is basically the question there.
Flow Caps/Grav Gen/& Part Gen all have limited uses, ASSUMING you don't need the slots for one of the shield consoles. [Sensors I'll get to in a min.] So I'm counting 2 serve-the-same-purpose useful consoles that every tac in the game uses and a few "if you have space" ones for sci ships which for that matter include everything except sensors and bios in my opinion. Perhaps part gens being the second most useful after the Cap/or/Heal dilemma.
Now as for sensors, I'd like to say that I have tested an over 99 sensors (was it 119 maybe?) vs a cloaked ship with a Subterfuge BoFF and guess what? I didn't see him even at 2.5km [-_-]. Now I know sensors have other uses but far as I am concerned tac has an "I win" button vs Sensors so they are now added to my list of useless sci TRIBBLE.
Which by the way is lead by anything related to crew. My first hint is that if I'm not mistaken a Biofunction MK XII purple carries a 40% improvement? Well. That being said a crew recovery nurse (GREEN quality!) carries a 100% boost to ALL ships when equipped. That's right, a 50k doff replaces 25 top end consoles scattered on 10 ships. Yeah a tac can use em just fine. Don't want to waste a space roster doff slot? No problem, use one that equips to GROUND! Yup they exist. Which leads me to point #2, WTF is crew recovery/resistance/does it even matter??? Well, it's arguable that crew recovery may help. But considering how I just explained how the Bio consoles themselves are beyond junk [agreed or did I miss something?], that leaves us with Crew Resist. A #or % that last time I checked is not even quantifiable in game. I seriously doubt it has any impact whatsoever on performance if it even really exists. But that's an engy console so rly moot to our discussion, just thought I'd toss that in.
Funny thing is; I don't see ANY of these problems with tac consoles or abilities. If anything a flawed tac something is to player ADVANTAGE if you know about it. I mean does a few extra notches in grav gens REALLY make a difference vs a Plasmonic Leach...? In fact I do put uni consoles in tac sometimes. Not because it's smart but because I figure I'm not gonna get DPS anyhow (on some ships) so why bother. Somedays I just wanna run 1 turret and put something more useful in my sci ships weapon slots. I swear if I could put sci consoles there, I would sometimes, as you need alot more boost than we get from 1 or even 3 now. -_-
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
If Sci has no offense, it's what, a floating castle?
I see all types tanking. Escorts zip around and get high defense, cruisers mosey around and laugh at less than 2-3 attackers, scis just heal best. Offensively, Escorts have DPS, Cruisers have potential DPS and more time to use it, Scis have what? Less weapons, BoFF abilities everyone has, and a bit more shield abilities and healing. Where's the offensive? You say it's balanced? Then by that token an escort should have MINIMAL defensive capabilities which is not the case by a long sot. All classes are meant to have some of everything. Best solution I can gather is a default proc specific to each sci ship no matter what weapon(s) you use. that and/or much more capable abilities like grav well or viral matrix. As it stands, sci is fun but nothing but smoke and mirrors outside of a Temporal Science Vessel or something.
I speak, OFC, as always from a PvP POV. PvE is such a joke, even on elite, that any lvl 30 (dare I say maybe even lvl 20?) ship piloted by a good player can conquer anything except maybe Hive or Terradome, just not as quickly.
It is rather obvious the pew-pew escorts don't like being disabled for more than 1-2 seconds. Well... Sci caps don't like being pop'd in 1-2 seconds without a fair chance at some sort of offense. What's unfair about that?
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
You really misunderstood where I was going there. I firmly believe that offensive sci abilities desperately need to be drastically buffed, at least from my PvE perspective, where they're pretty much all pointless at this point (you can see my post on page 6 for my view on that situation). What I was arguing is that we don't need to worry about the fact that, even after that buff, escorts and cruisers are unlikely to use offensive sci abilities instead of the defensive ones they currently use, and in fact that's a good thing as it avoids making the ships that are solid already OP by attempting to fix the sci ships. (Another thing that could be done to help with this would be to make much of the buff come from skill points, so you have to invest in an ability to make it good.)
I didn't mean to distract from that in the least - I definitely believe Sci is borked (I'd toss it and start over, personally).
Spike vs. Pressure.
Spike vs. Pressure.
Hrmmm, my Snooper...
Base Perception: 5325.38
(w/o 4825.38+ Stealth, I'll see them at 10km)
(they'd need >5200.38 Stealth for me not to see them at 2.5km)
EPtA1 Perception (30s): 5475.38
(w/o 4975.38+ Stealth, I'll see them at 10km)
(they'd need >5350.38 Stealth for me not to see them at 2.5km)
Sensor Scan Perception (20s): 5736.63
(w/o 5236.63+ Stealth, I'll see them at 10km)
(they'd need >5611.63 Stealth for me not to see them at 2.5km)
EPtA1 + Sensor Scan Perception (20s): 5886.63
(w/o 5386.63+ Stealth, I'll see them at 10km)
(they'd need >5761.63 Stealth for me not to see them at 2.5km)
...that's just a MU Deep Space w/ 4x Sensor Probes Mk XI and a Jem Deflector. No Nebby console, etc, etc, etc.
My Sci Hegh'ta (@104 Aux) has 5038.4 Stealth and can be seen by my unbuffed Snooper at 5.7km.
My Sci Fleet T'varo (@105 Aux, Infiltrator Captain, Subterfuge BOFF) has 5319.7 Stealth (@0 SC) and can be seen by my unbuffed Snooper at 0.1km (but hey, at least he's not raiding the fridge, right?). Notice I said @0 SC...0 Singularity Charge. @100 SC (5 Pips), he's got 4919.7 Stealth. The unbuffed Snooper can see him at 8.1km. Yep, for those that didn't know - building Singularity Charge debuffs Stealth (-400 Stealth @5 Pips).
MU Star Cruiser/MU Vor'cha Battle Cruiser
Emergency Force Fields Mk XI +37.5 Able/Alive Crew Resist
Biofunction Monitor Mk XI +37.5% Crew Recovery
Jem'Hadar Resilient Shields Mk XI +50 Crew Death/Disable Resist
A Green <75% (+100%) Medic is 148,999 EC. Blue (+150%) is 1,750,000 EC. Purple (+200%) is 14,400,000 EC.
A Green <75% (+100%) Nurse is 34,000 EC. Blue (+150%) is 1,000,000 EC. Purple (+200%) is 18,000,000 EC.
Only help below 75% in combat, no?
I don't PvP with those guys - last year sometime, I did dork around with the Crew stuff in PvP...and it was moot - Theta. PvE on the other hand, can be interesting at times. Those two consoles wouldn't likely survive those guys gearing up - but since they were there, I went ahead and colored them yellow...
Yep, the MU DSSV doesn't care about weapon DPS - not like there was going to be much coming from 2 Tac Consoles and only a Lt Tac BOFF. The JHEC slotted the Nukara for the +10% Beam Accuracy - cause I like to play the crit game where the Accuracy Overflow can come in handy.
Tac consoles - yep, pretty much buffing the things that most folks are doing most of the time - firing weapons. Sci consoles (and Eng) outside of very few things, well - they're just not - well, like Tac consoles. /shrug
I mean, c'mon - somebody equips 3-5 Tac Consoles and somebody equips 3-5 Sci Consoles - big difference of what's going on there.
Again, part of the reason that I think that there's so much to do - it might require a rebuild from the ground up...meh.
My concern wasn't with the offensive side with that as much as what that defensive side provides to them. Those 1-3 Sci abilities help make them less glass when used in conjunction with their Eng as well. It was basically more of my same old - same old move that stuff to Eng, add more Sci - show Sci some love - add to the bag o' dirty tricks and all that jazz.
Have more things that work off of certain skills - so folks can focus better and have more to show for that. As is, well - look at how many of the abilities based on the same skills actually end up at odds with each other, eh?
You would EVER consider using Biofunction Monitor? Really? That is probably the MOST useless console in the ENTIRE game... and that is saying something.
Emergency Force Fields is not really much better. Two Torp hits later and your crew is vaporized regardless of if you originally had 50 or 3,000 crew. The Crew Mechanic in STO barely works at all and if you waste any slots to protect them then you really need to stop and examine very carefully what you are doing because you are working under some bad assumptions.
I wouldn't use them with a crew of 50 or 3,000. The Crew system's massively borked at those ends of the spectrum. That's not based on an assumption, mind you.
edit: Also, I noticed you were an Empire Veteran. Crew stuff is more borked for KDF than Feds for some reason (that's even before taking into account any of the Leadership stuff). There was a PvP thread from last December where folks pointed out problems out the wahzoo with all sorts of things...but it never got any dev attention. Basically, everybody decided in the end in some of the other discussions that it was moot because of Theta so it was dropped...
The thing is, you have to either eliminate sci slots on escorts and cruisers entirely (not gonna happen) or give them either offensive or defensive abilities to put there. Because the offensive abilities have to be made strong enough to actually make up for the weaknesses of sci ships giving them to escorts and cruisers would create a major balance issue, so they have to have defensive sci abilities. (Plus, I do kind of like the theory of having sci as the mage abilities, with some light healing and a variety of unusual attacks.)
Creating more synergy on skills would certainly be nice, although I'm not entirely sure how to do it, given the limit to how many abilities any one ship can run (which means that even if you could come up with something new, it would be hard to fit it all in).
It is massively borked at every part of the spectrum. I was part of that big threadnaught and yeah... I am disappointed at how it got no official acknowledgement at all... We should either take out the Crew Mechanic (which fails to work at present) or finally fix it.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=11450941#post11450941
An outside (of the forums) medium for players to decide what needs to be fixed/changed/or whatever within reason. If the majority vote lists "fixing" sci consoles in the top 10, great. If not, something else gets better. But us rambling on with each other in the forums is pointless. Even if 50 people unanimously agreed on something, no Dev cares. Perhaps it's our job to do our discussions (in independent unison) first, then bring the short list here.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah