My favorite is when the completely redesign a mechanic/system for the fifth time, like ground combat or how they plan to redo reputation.
Not to mention all the under utilized tech they create and then do absolutely nothing with. Such as the new crafting recipes from the last FE, the bonus mission from dailies in EE, and so on.
Then again who am I to judge I don't actually work on an MMO design team. But from my armchair all I see is waste and massive under utilization taking place.
Sometimes I wonder how much might actually be a part of the sale of systems.
In the new monetization paradigm of this game since the advent of F2P for STO, the systems team has had a big hand in creating most of the items/powers/content that gets "sold" or is designed to retain players (or create dilithium sales). (So does the art team, but we're focusing on powers here, which is systems territory)
Producing new things, or revamped versions of things is quantifiable and helps provide things like justification for future budgets, ROI for projects and demonstrates productivity.
Could they do this as well by going back and fixing things, and is that even a directive from whoever they answer to? Possibly.
On the other hand its much easier and more efficient, and probably even a top down directive to quantify it based on new sales.
It would be a truly difficult and nebulous task to prove that fixing X, Y and Z power/item ultimately had any impact on player retention or sale of new stuff.
On top of all of this, in most companies the people who work on designing things rarely have the budget or schedule to go back and fix "older products", and generally instead create a new version of it (or just a brand new product/line).
Obviously software is a somewhat different paradigm, but the way that the selling of virtual goods in a MMO happens is more similar to the above example imo.
Well, imho, that's not a good thing. It's not about everybody having to fly certain cookie cutter builds by any means - I certainly don't, I fly some damn flaky things - things that cause some folks to /facepalm. I'm not going to be the member of the 5 Minute Club nor the 20k+ Club. There is a wide diversity that is possible to get the job done within given time periods without having to force folks into cookie cutter builds.
With the Elachi, fought them with Eng, Tac, and Sci - Mogai, D'deridex, Ha'feh, Ha'nom, Ha'apax, and T'varo Retro/Fleet T'varo. Different builds, different gearing, etc, etc, etc. Heck, I even started the shuttle mission with a shuttle once by accident - instead of with a normal ship and then taking the shuttle to the surface. Fighting Monbosh in a shuttle was fun.
What STO is doing on the other hand, again imho, is doing something akin to the following:
Allowing folks that play a racing game to show up in flip flops and beat the NPCs driving Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc, etc, etc.
Allowing folks that play a football game (American or otherwise) to show up with a badminton racket and rock the NPC teams.
Etc, etc, etc...it's beyond silly how little effort has to be made.
PvE is not "buffed" - it is continuously "nerfed" - not only is the PvE made easier time and time again, but there is the continual introduction of more powerful gear without the inclusion of more powerful/more difficult content.
Which goes back to the game allowing folks to show up for a FPS game with cans of silly string...
It's not about separating PvE and PvP, then - it's about separating the game between your average game player (I consider myself average at best) and your...well, your extremely casual social game player that you might find playing certain games out there - I used to say your average Facebook gamer...but your average Facebook game requires more effort than STO does these days.
Until something along those lines is done, once more imho, then there's always going to be a problem with Sci...and always going to be a problem with PvP.
Agreed. And it seems every PvE has a time factor which barely allows for anything but DPS.
Basic PvE goals:
1- Blow everything up/Kill everyone "bad". If not everything/everyone, everything/everyone in your way. Kill X waves of X. Kill all X before X escape. Even when there's an optional way to do it, time forces you to act a certain way.
2- DO IT FAST! Hurry, before time runs out even if it's an 'optional' goal. The probe will make it thru the gate! The diplomat will die! The Empire will establish a stronghold! etc etc etc
So it's, boring. We are reduced to dumbing down our ships to enjoy any real challenge in space, and blowing balloons on the ground to have any real enjoyment other than pwning the enemies really fast. But even if it were made "harder", it would still be boring (and in fact frustrating) as long as the "You must KILL and kill FAST!" principle is used. Perhaps this would be an appropriate mechanic for "Slaughter Online" or "Kill Frenzy Online" but where is good ole' Star Trek??? Aside from ONE Deferi daily where you use your Science guile to avoid confrontation or story missions where you set the difficulty an time frame (even then the forced combat is often rather uncannon), I just don't see it.
I am not against the combat, but maybe if all NPCs had Feedback Pulse 3 and +1000 kinetic resist intervals, we could enjoy defeating them a bit more. Assuming there weren't droves of them to defeat. I really enjoy Doomsday Machine for example where not only can you use stealth OR combat thru the ground part, but once you get to the machine, your goal is destroy IT and ignore the other enemies (unless you don't want to). THAT'S what we should see more of.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Anyone that says science is weak has not fought me. Its not that they are weak, its that they play different than any other class. If u can't learn when to time the grav wels and tractor beams along with the other science skills in a way that can decimate your opponent then, to be blunt, u don't need to fly science.
Anyone that says science is weak has not fought me. Its not that they are weak, its that they play different than any other class. If u can't learn when to time the grav wels and tractor beams along with the other science skills in a way that can decimate your opponent then, to be blunt, u don't need to fly science.
Good players make everything better. Just because a great player can do great things with science doesn't mean science isn't weak.
There is something to be said that the lowest common denominator can do well with tac but poorly with a science and engineering focus. Part of it might be that these classes just "need finesse", but a large portion of this disadvantage come from the skills themselves being overly weak.
Agreed. And it seems every PvE has a time factor which barely allows for anything but DPS.
Basic PvE goals:
1- Blow everything up/Kill everyone "bad". If not everything/everyone, everything/everyone in your way. Kill X waves of X. Kill all X before X escape. Even when there's an optional way to do it, time forces you to act a certain way.
2- DO IT FAST! Hurry, before time runs out even if it's an 'optional' goal. The probe will make it thru the gate! The diplomat will die! The Empire will establish a stronghold! etc etc etc
So it's, boring. We are reduced to dumbing down our ships to enjoy any real challenge in space, and blowing balloons on the ground to have any real enjoyment other than pwning the enemies really fast. But even if it were made "harder", it would still be boring (and in fact frustrating) as long as the "You must KILL and kill FAST!" principle is used. Perhaps this would be an appropriate mechanic for "Slaughter Online" or "Kill Frenzy Online" but where is good ole' Star Trek??? Aside from ONE Deferi daily where you use your Science guile to avoid confrontation or story missions where you set the difficulty an time frame (even then the forced combat is often rather uncannon), I just don't see it.
I am not against the combat, but maybe if all NPCs had Feedback Pulse 3 and +1000 kinetic resist intervals, we could enjoy defeating them a bit more. Assuming there weren't droves of them to defeat. I really enjoy Doomsday Machine for example where not only can you use stealth OR combat thru the ground part, but once you get to the machine, your goal is destroy IT and ignore the other enemies (unless you don't want to). THAT'S what we should see more of.
Part of this has a lot to do with the player base though. Devs try to add content that has a focus on something other than DPS, and 80%+ of the playerbase ignores it. Best examples: Hive Onslaught (Where the optional have to do with having a tank and some of the mission is based on positioning and smart flying) and Crystalline Entity (where science powers are very important). People just avoid doing them.
Look at the current iteration of Infected. Originally the idea was to control nanites while the rest of the team killed transformers. The player base doon figured out that you can ignore this totally by focusing 100% on DPS. Since then the Devs have updated the mission to make the initial plan almost impossible. (EPtE on spheres means they ignore lots of movement debuffs)
Anyone that says science is weak has not fought me. Its not that they are weak, its that they play different than any other class. If u can't learn when to time the grav wels and tractor beams along with the other science skills in a way that can decimate your opponent then, to be blunt, u don't need to fly science.
/facepalm
What kind of players are you facing one on one that are having a problem with a single Sci?
Part of this has a lot to do with the player base though. Devs try to add content that has a focus on something other than DPS, and 80%+ of the playerbase ignores it. Best examples: Hive Onslaught (Where the optional have to do with having a tank and some of the mission is based on positioning and smart flying) and Crystalline Entity (where science powers are very important). People just avoid doing them.
Eee! Someone acknowledged that Hive Onslaught exists! That just made my day!
... actually, Origin, the way you put it almost feels like a classical tragedy. Everyone complains about the grindy tedium of end-game, and then ignores the missions that break out of that mold. It's funny, really, when you think about it.
... okay, except for Azure Nebula Rescue, I guess.
Since then the Devs have updated the mission to make the initial plan almost impossible. (EPtE on spheres means they ignore lots of movement debuffs)
Well, to be fair to the devs, the spheres always had EPtE. It's just that now it actually does something, which makes spheres much more interesting to fight in every other mission they appear in.
... now that the spheres' respawn-times have been pared down a little bit, it might be interesting to see what would happen if the devs switched the mission over to start spawning spheres when their cube blow up, instead of when a generator drops.
That might make me start playing IS:E again.
Its current build feels far too much like beating up the Borg and taking their lunch money. *Shakes head.*
Anyone that says science is weak has not fought me. Its not that they are weak, its that they play different than any other class. If u can't learn when to time the grav wels and tractor beams along with the other science skills in a way that can decimate your opponent then, to be blunt, u don't need to fly science.
... I tried writing responses to this twice, but both turned into rants, so, I'll try the short and sweet version. Ehem: "I respectfully disagree with your opinion on this topic."
True success is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm.
-- Winston Churchill
... I tried writing responses to this twice, but both turned into rants, so, I'll try the short and sweet version. Ehem: "I respectfully disagree with your opinion on this topic."
Took me forever to come up with my /facepalm reply to what he said there. I like how you handled it though, much less hostile.
Sometimes I wonder how much might actually be a part of the sale of systems.
In the new monetization paradigm of this game since the advent of F2P for STO, the systems team has had a big hand in creating most of the items/powers/content that gets "sold" or is designed to retain players (or create dilithium sales). (So does the art team, but we're focusing on powers here, which is systems territory)
Producing new things, or revamped versions of things is quantifiable and helps provide things like justification for future budgets, ROI for projects and demonstrates productivity.
Could they do this as well by going back and fixing things, and is that even a directive from whoever they answer to? Possibly.
On the other hand its much easier and more efficient, and probably even a top down directive to quantify it based on new sales.
It would be a truly difficult and nebulous task to prove that fixing X, Y and Z power/item ultimately had any impact on player retention or sale of new stuff.
On top of all of this, in most companies the people who work on designing things rarely have the budget or schedule to go back and fix "older products", and generally instead create a new version of it (or just a brand new product/line).
Obviously software is a somewhat different paradigm, but the way that the selling of virtual goods in a MMO happens is more similar to the above example imo.
Just some speculation on my part.
Point 1: Ask any video game PR person (like da Flake) to quantify and prove the RoI anything they do. Yet companies have slowly learned just how valuable they are.
The Main Point
STO has so much going for it, both with it's license, amazing F2P model, really good space combat, and most importantly nearly zero competition. Don't really think many can argue with those points much. Yet it has not, to my knowledge, had explosive growth like you would expect. The game is growing sure, but not in a way like World of ******** or League of Legends has.
You see when a game has those types of things going for it, and is then combined with a level of polish it tends to explosively grow a market and dominate it. I'm having a hard time explaining this properly I thinks.
World of ******** and League of Legends, even Wizards 101 to a degree, became such amazing successes. All took an existing small market (MMOs, DOTAs, F2P/family MMOs) and caused it to grow exponential and then defined and dominated those markets to this very day. Because they did have that extra 10% polish that Cryptic seems incapable of.
With the IP of STO and NW even, combined with the great F2P model, these games should be redefining the goals of a F2P MMO. Yet when was the last time you heard Cryptic actually apply a hard number to anything they do that just blows your mind? Even Wizards 101 broke the 10 million sub barrier early on. We could be hearing crazy statistics like those for STO like 100 million lock box keys sold in the first month yet we don't.
That tells me that their games are performing well enough, but no where near the potential that they (in my mind) should or are capable of in the current market. And I fully place the blame on the lack of polish that I could go on about for hours. Everything from the steep learning curve of how to build a ship for a typical player that doesn't use out of game sources to the nasty bugs that have been around for far too long and finish off with the absolutely atrocious balance in the game not just with gear or ships but also rewards and nearly everything else.
Cryptic makes an amazing 90% of a game, they just need that last 10% for it to become legendary.
*edit addon*
And it really is the little things and missed opportunities. Say for example if with the romulan boffs that you get from the story missions they ended up with the standard abilities for a solid endgame ship setup? You know ensuring that the new player automatically gets to see the value in the TT/EpTS/HE defensive trinity and has it by default. at the end?
Or how the doff system can be intimidating to new players? Perhaps adding a small tutorial mission that has the player run a preset doff mission to gain contraband and then hold their hand to get to the security officer and turn it it? Or even letting us know inside the game which missions give contraband? That might get there feet wet and create a bit of interest in exploring it further don't you think?
Or what about that temporal ambassador mission, yet another golden opportunity to teach by example and have a reasonable ship setup with solid performance instead of what looks like a drunken monkey kitted out? Heck even put something that makes sense on all newly purchased ships would be a start at least..
But yeah justifying them or quantifying a RoI on those would be difficult.
Well, to be fair to the devs, the spheres always had EPtE. It's just that now it actually does something, which makes spheres much more interesting to fight in every other mission they appear in.
... now that the spheres' respawn-times have been pared down a little bit, it might be interesting to see what would happen if the devs switched the mission over to start spawning spheres when their cube blow up, instead of when a generator drops.
That might make me start playing IS:E again.
Its current build feels far too much like beating up the Borg and taking their lunch money. *Shakes head.*
I would not mind them using EPtE IF they used it like the Borg did in the show to stay right ontop of you and press their attack. Instead they go zipping all over the place like insane chickens with their heads cut off and make you waste so much precious time trying to chase them down and kill them. I feel like yelling at them in Klingon and saying things like: "Get back here you cybernetic coward! Stand and fight your dishonorable p'tak!" and the like...
I would not mind them using EPtE IF they used it like the Borg did in the show to stay right ontop of you and press their attack.
Well, it also shouldn't be a get out of GW free card. Until LoR came along a ship with GW was extremely valuable for ISE, with the potential to almost guarantee the optional after a mistake on the 10% rule. Now it's not worth using under those circumstances, assuming it's not actually detrimental by encouraging the spheres to speed up.
You honestly expect a Dev to pop their head into a thread that starts with incendiary commentary, accusations and gross hyperbole? You named the gorram thread "Why are you killing Science?" and you want a Dev to actually answer you?!
Get your head outta the clouds, and quit with the entitlement issues. The devs aren't here to answer your "questions." This isn't really even a question - it's an accusation, and you're trying to subpoena Cryptic to the witness stand for your own personal mockery of a trial. More like a witchhunt.
And you know what's even more awesome about this whole thread? Not a single shred of concrete examples, or actual feedback.
Got a problem with the proposed Science traits? How about you say WHY instead of just throwing around statements of "this sucks" and "that sucks." Why do you think they suck? How should they be improved?
Upset about the fact that Science can't defeat enemies as easily as an Escort? What do you suggest to close this gap? Do Sci abilities need to deal more damage? Shorter cooldowns? How would you suggest this problem be solved?
REAL feedback will get a Dev response. Pay attention around here, and you would realize that.
Throwing a tantrum gets you exactly what you are truly entitled to - being ignored.
I would agree with most of this. I think a thread where folks were pleasantly and constructively working out solutions to the sci problem would get more attention from the devs. and it could even come to compromises that improve sci without hurting the monetization (and, while we all hate the greed factor, the fact is that if they weren't making money the game wouldn't exist, and I rather like it to exist.)
I don't know if I could contribute much to such a thread if one was started; partly because I'm not as good at the math as most to discuss the intricacies of the game; and partly because I have a tendency to hesitate to make suggestions just because there are so many who - rather than constructively make the suggestion better or explaining it's unfeasability - just tear into you like your the stupidest thing alive. (sometimes it feels like talking to teenagers, and maybe most people who voice there opinion on here are teenagers, or 30-somethings still living at home, frustrated cause mom hasn't finished their laundry yet). Oops, that was off topic.
Although I do remember playing a capture and hold PUG game one time that had one other sci ship and we were doing pretty good, and the tacs on the other team were crying about "sci spam". All I could think was that it wasn't much different than the "tac spam" they use. And note that this was ONE time that I remember sci's being inherently effective. I like my sci build but I do wish they'd make many of the abilities a bit more effective. It's not about making us able to rack up more DPS, but just about giving us a little more voice in the match, and not so easy to dismiss with ST/ET and the like.
I have (like many I would think) one character for each career. and I have noticed that it is rather fun zipping around in my escort killing people quickly and with relative impunity. Then I switch characters and start flying around in my cruiser or sci ship and I have to seriously switch my thinking. I think the escort is just easier in a lot of ways. My others take some more effort, thought, and skill. Which I like (once I get my head around it) because that's what the Starfleet officers always had to do - figure out how to take a disadvantaged situation and make it an advantage.
It sounds like - from reading some other posts - that sci ships were once very effective, escorts whined, so they tweaked us way too far the other way. Maybe tweaking us back in the other direction until we find that happy medium would be nice.
Most people are playing headless chicken-fests in PUG arena, with no coordination of any kind.
If your team doesn't coordinate, it's hard to take advantage of what Sci has to offer.
It's one of the quirks of the game.
That's because stacking is intrinsic to Science Captains being a force multipliers.
You can't stack 5 Tac captains and get the same results.
Those 2 Tac captains you are screaming your head off about are only allowed to be effective because of what a good Sci captain brings to the table.
Namely, force multiplication in the way of debuffs and force multiplication in the way of buffs.
This level of "team thinking" and player mentoring is what makes the Sad Pandas the Sad Pandas. And what makes me, sadly, just a sad me. (just a shout out cause I've played with and against you folks in PUGs and have been impressed both ways).
I would not mind them using EPtE IF they used it like the Borg did in the show to stay right ontop of you and press their attack. Instead they go zipping all over the place like insane chickens with their heads cut off and make you waste so much precious time trying to chase them down and kill them. I feel like yelling at them in Klingon and saying things like: "Get back here you cybernetic coward! Stand and fight your dishonorable p'tak!" and the like...
It's because they are running the Nautilus, a tactic devised by a 1943 German Uboat captain by the name of Heinz Grindelwald.
So reading this from the beginning then skipping a couple pages to comment.
What game are you playing?
I started on an engineer and did ok. Till I got to the romulans and kept getting my Galaxy blown out from under me. Eventually I died my way out of the romulan arc and to cardassians and a star cruiser and was an engineer again.
Then rolled a Tac officer and flew escorts. Did okay against the Klingons and the like. Not great but managed. Got to Romulans and once again got to die my way through. Bloody D'ierdex's and chain heavy torpedoes.
Just to say I had played all three archetypes I rolled a science character. . I did Klingon arc about as well as the first two. Got to romulan arc and killed one of the thrice cursed warbirds by dropping a gravity well on him as he fired his torps. He was blown up practically before I was done putting my drink down.
Run Borg STF's and I shut down runs to the time portal or to kill the kang. I hold out ok in adding damage. A few ships do go to break the well. But they were slowed enough for me to either chew through the shields or drop a tractor on them and put them right back in. And so far I have not seen a ship beat targeting his engines while tractored in a gravity well. He is held.
I admit I have not fought in ship to ship PvP yet. So maybe the builds are not great against another player. But I have yet to find a science skill with no use.
The photonic fleet that was maligned a few pages back? Best captain power out there. What go down fighting? So when I am dying I can kamikaze better? Superior engineer? If hurting I get one extra heal. Photonic fleet. Arrive as soon as in combat range pop your damage adding fleet. When it cools down repeat. Seems the other two ship powers are less useful. Toss in your various earnable fleet boost and the admiral emergency fleet and you keep adding power.
So to me, Science for the win! :cool:
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
So reading this from the beginning then skipping a couple pages to comment.
What game are you playing?
I started on an engineer and did ok. Till I got to the romulans and kept getting my Galaxy blown out from under me. Eventually I died my way out of the romulan arc and to cardassians and a star cruiser and was an engineer again.
Then rolled a Tac officer and flew escorts. Did okay against the Klingons and the like. Not great but managed. Got to Romulans and once again got to die my way through. Bloody D'ierdex's and chain heavy torpedoes.
Just to say I had played all three archetypes I rolled a science character. . I did Klingon arc about as well as the first two. Got to romulan arc and killed one of the thrice cursed warbirds by dropping a gravity well on him as he fired his torps. He was blown up practically before I was done putting my drink down.
Run Borg STF's and I shut down runs to the time portal or to kill the kang. I hold out ok in adding damage. A few ships do go to break the well. But they were slowed enough for me to either chew through the shields or drop a tractor on them and put them right back in. And so far I have not seen a ship beat targeting his engines while tractored in a gravity well. He is held.
I admit I have not fought in ship to ship PvP yet. So maybe the builds are not great against another player. But I have yet to find a science skill with no use.
The photonic fleet that was maligned a few pages back? Best captain power out there. What go down fighting? So when I am dying I can kamikaze better? Superior engineer? If hurting I get one extra heal. Photonic fleet. Arrive as soon as in combat range pop your damage adding fleet. When it cools down repeat. Seems the other two ship powers are less useful. Toss in your various earnable fleet boost and the admiral emergency fleet and you keep adding power.
So to me, Science for the win! :cool:
PVE is pathetically easy in general. It has nothing on PVP. 90% of builds people use in PVE, generally will die horribly in PVP.
I do agree though, I love my caitian and Gorn Scientists, they are incredibly fun to play.
Part of this has a lot to do with the player base though. Devs try to add content that has a focus on something other than DPS, and 80%+ of the playerbase ignores it. Best examples: Hive Onslaught (Where the optional have to do with having a tank and some of the mission is based on positioning and smart flying) and Crystalline Entity (where science powers are very important). People just avoid doing them.
...
Looks to me like they DECIDED (or at least graduated towards) DPS centered content a long time ago so so now the "player base" is DPS centered, not the other way around. Every day, I see less Star Trek fans and more kids and gamers playing. This is rather obvious by the conversations that take place. I'm not sure when bacon became a more popular topic in ESD than Troi, but it has happened. Cryptic/PWE has created the player base they have by disappointing certain people and keeping well satiated DPS jockeys.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
So realistically, you only need to have the exact number of doffs that you need. ~leadme2kirk
Well I know the devs are a bunch of drugies. When the come on they talk about crazy stuff. There will to make money is they only thing left. Its sad. THEY NEED TO FIRE THE DEAD WEIGHT DRUGY WELFARE COLLECTORS.. HIRE NEW TALENT.
Comments
Sometimes I wonder how much might actually be a part of the sale of systems.
In the new monetization paradigm of this game since the advent of F2P for STO, the systems team has had a big hand in creating most of the items/powers/content that gets "sold" or is designed to retain players (or create dilithium sales). (So does the art team, but we're focusing on powers here, which is systems territory)
Producing new things, or revamped versions of things is quantifiable and helps provide things like justification for future budgets, ROI for projects and demonstrates productivity.
Could they do this as well by going back and fixing things, and is that even a directive from whoever they answer to? Possibly.
On the other hand its much easier and more efficient, and probably even a top down directive to quantify it based on new sales.
It would be a truly difficult and nebulous task to prove that fixing X, Y and Z power/item ultimately had any impact on player retention or sale of new stuff.
On top of all of this, in most companies the people who work on designing things rarely have the budget or schedule to go back and fix "older products", and generally instead create a new version of it (or just a brand new product/line).
Obviously software is a somewhat different paradigm, but the way that the selling of virtual goods in a MMO happens is more similar to the above example imo.
Just some speculation on my part.
Agreed. And it seems every PvE has a time factor which barely allows for anything but DPS.
Basic PvE goals:
1- Blow everything up/Kill everyone "bad". If not everything/everyone, everything/everyone in your way. Kill X waves of X. Kill all X before X escape. Even when there's an optional way to do it, time forces you to act a certain way.
2- DO IT FAST! Hurry, before time runs out even if it's an 'optional' goal. The probe will make it thru the gate! The diplomat will die! The Empire will establish a stronghold! etc etc etc
So it's, boring. We are reduced to dumbing down our ships to enjoy any real challenge in space, and blowing balloons on the ground to have any real enjoyment other than pwning the enemies really fast. But even if it were made "harder", it would still be boring (and in fact frustrating) as long as the "You must KILL and kill FAST!" principle is used. Perhaps this would be an appropriate mechanic for "Slaughter Online" or "Kill Frenzy Online" but where is good ole' Star Trek??? Aside from ONE Deferi daily where you use your Science guile to avoid confrontation or story missions where you set the difficulty an time frame (even then the forced combat is often rather uncannon), I just don't see it.
I am not against the combat, but maybe if all NPCs had Feedback Pulse 3 and +1000 kinetic resist intervals, we could enjoy defeating them a bit more. Assuming there weren't droves of them to defeat. I really enjoy Doomsday Machine for example where not only can you use stealth OR combat thru the ground part, but once you get to the machine, your goal is destroy IT and ignore the other enemies (unless you don't want to). THAT'S what we should see more of.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah
Good players make everything better. Just because a great player can do great things with science doesn't mean science isn't weak.
There is something to be said that the lowest common denominator can do well with tac but poorly with a science and engineering focus. Part of it might be that these classes just "need finesse", but a large portion of this disadvantage come from the skills themselves being overly weak.
Part of this has a lot to do with the player base though. Devs try to add content that has a focus on something other than DPS, and 80%+ of the playerbase ignores it. Best examples: Hive Onslaught (Where the optional have to do with having a tank and some of the mission is based on positioning and smart flying) and Crystalline Entity (where science powers are very important). People just avoid doing them.
Look at the current iteration of Infected. Originally the idea was to control nanites while the rest of the team killed transformers. The player base doon figured out that you can ignore this totally by focusing 100% on DPS. Since then the Devs have updated the mission to make the initial plan almost impossible. (EPtE on spheres means they ignore lots of movement debuffs)
/facepalm
What kind of players are you facing one on one that are having a problem with a single Sci?
... actually, Origin, the way you put it almost feels like a classical tragedy. Everyone complains about the grindy tedium of end-game, and then ignores the missions that break out of that mold. It's funny, really, when you think about it.
... okay, except for Azure Nebula Rescue, I guess.
Well, to be fair to the devs, the spheres always had EPtE. It's just that now it actually does something, which makes spheres much more interesting to fight in every other mission they appear in.
... now that the spheres' respawn-times have been pared down a little bit, it might be interesting to see what would happen if the devs switched the mission over to start spawning spheres when their cube blow up, instead of when a generator drops.
That might make me start playing IS:E again.
Its current build feels far too much like beating up the Borg and taking their lunch money. *Shakes head.*
... I tried writing responses to this twice, but both turned into rants, so, I'll try the short and sweet version. Ehem: "I respectfully disagree with your opinion on this topic."
-- Winston Churchill
Took me forever to come up with my /facepalm reply to what he said there. I like how you handled it though, much less hostile.
Point 1: Ask any video game PR person (like da Flake) to quantify and prove the RoI anything they do. Yet companies have slowly learned just how valuable they are.
The Main Point
STO has so much going for it, both with it's license, amazing F2P model, really good space combat, and most importantly nearly zero competition. Don't really think many can argue with those points much. Yet it has not, to my knowledge, had explosive growth like you would expect. The game is growing sure, but not in a way like World of ******** or League of Legends has.
You see when a game has those types of things going for it, and is then combined with a level of polish it tends to explosively grow a market and dominate it. I'm having a hard time explaining this properly I thinks.
World of ******** and League of Legends, even Wizards 101 to a degree, became such amazing successes. All took an existing small market (MMOs, DOTAs, F2P/family MMOs) and caused it to grow exponential and then defined and dominated those markets to this very day. Because they did have that extra 10% polish that Cryptic seems incapable of.
With the IP of STO and NW even, combined with the great F2P model, these games should be redefining the goals of a F2P MMO. Yet when was the last time you heard Cryptic actually apply a hard number to anything they do that just blows your mind? Even Wizards 101 broke the 10 million sub barrier early on. We could be hearing crazy statistics like those for STO like 100 million lock box keys sold in the first month yet we don't.
That tells me that their games are performing well enough, but no where near the potential that they (in my mind) should or are capable of in the current market. And I fully place the blame on the lack of polish that I could go on about for hours. Everything from the steep learning curve of how to build a ship for a typical player that doesn't use out of game sources to the nasty bugs that have been around for far too long and finish off with the absolutely atrocious balance in the game not just with gear or ships but also rewards and nearly everything else.
Cryptic makes an amazing 90% of a game, they just need that last 10% for it to become legendary.
*edit addon*
And it really is the little things and missed opportunities. Say for example if with the romulan boffs that you get from the story missions they ended up with the standard abilities for a solid endgame ship setup? You know ensuring that the new player automatically gets to see the value in the TT/EpTS/HE defensive trinity and has it by default. at the end?
Or how the doff system can be intimidating to new players? Perhaps adding a small tutorial mission that has the player run a preset doff mission to gain contraband and then hold their hand to get to the security officer and turn it it? Or even letting us know inside the game which missions give contraband? That might get there feet wet and create a bit of interest in exploring it further don't you think?
Or what about that temporal ambassador mission, yet another golden opportunity to teach by example and have a reasonable ship setup with solid performance instead of what looks like a drunken monkey kitted out? Heck even put something that makes sense on all newly purchased ships would be a start at least..
But yeah justifying them or quantifying a RoI on those would be difficult.
I would not mind them using EPtE IF they used it like the Borg did in the show to stay right ontop of you and press their attack. Instead they go zipping all over the place like insane chickens with their heads cut off and make you waste so much precious time trying to chase them down and kill them. I feel like yelling at them in Klingon and saying things like: "Get back here you cybernetic coward! Stand and fight your dishonorable p'tak!" and the like...
Well, it also shouldn't be a get out of GW free card. Until LoR came along a ship with GW was extremely valuable for ISE, with the potential to almost guarantee the optional after a mistake on the 10% rule. Now it's not worth using under those circumstances, assuming it's not actually detrimental by encouraging the spheres to speed up.
I would agree with most of this. I think a thread where folks were pleasantly and constructively working out solutions to the sci problem would get more attention from the devs. and it could even come to compromises that improve sci without hurting the monetization (and, while we all hate the greed factor, the fact is that if they weren't making money the game wouldn't exist, and I rather like it to exist.)
I don't know if I could contribute much to such a thread if one was started; partly because I'm not as good at the math as most to discuss the intricacies of the game; and partly because I have a tendency to hesitate to make suggestions just because there are so many who - rather than constructively make the suggestion better or explaining it's unfeasability - just tear into you like your the stupidest thing alive. (sometimes it feels like talking to teenagers, and maybe most people who voice there opinion on here are teenagers, or 30-somethings still living at home, frustrated cause mom hasn't finished their laundry yet). Oops, that was off topic.
Although I do remember playing a capture and hold PUG game one time that had one other sci ship and we were doing pretty good, and the tacs on the other team were crying about "sci spam". All I could think was that it wasn't much different than the "tac spam" they use. And note that this was ONE time that I remember sci's being inherently effective. I like my sci build but I do wish they'd make many of the abilities a bit more effective. It's not about making us able to rack up more DPS, but just about giving us a little more voice in the match, and not so easy to dismiss with ST/ET and the like.
I have (like many I would think) one character for each career. and I have noticed that it is rather fun zipping around in my escort killing people quickly and with relative impunity. Then I switch characters and start flying around in my cruiser or sci ship and I have to seriously switch my thinking. I think the escort is just easier in a lot of ways. My others take some more effort, thought, and skill. Which I like (once I get my head around it) because that's what the Starfleet officers always had to do - figure out how to take a disadvantaged situation and make it an advantage.
It sounds like - from reading some other posts - that sci ships were once very effective, escorts whined, so they tweaked us way too far the other way. Maybe tweaking us back in the other direction until we find that happy medium would be nice.
This level of "team thinking" and player mentoring is what makes the Sad Pandas the Sad Pandas. And what makes me, sadly, just a sad me. (just a shout out cause I've played with and against you folks in PUGs and have been impressed both ways).
It's because they are running the Nautilus, a tactic devised by a 1943 German Uboat captain by the name of Heinz Grindelwald.
What game are you playing?
I started on an engineer and did ok. Till I got to the romulans and kept getting my Galaxy blown out from under me. Eventually I died my way out of the romulan arc and to cardassians and a star cruiser and was an engineer again.
Then rolled a Tac officer and flew escorts. Did okay against the Klingons and the like. Not great but managed. Got to Romulans and once again got to die my way through. Bloody D'ierdex's and chain heavy torpedoes.
Just to say I had played all three archetypes I rolled a science character. . I did Klingon arc about as well as the first two. Got to romulan arc and killed one of the thrice cursed warbirds by dropping a gravity well on him as he fired his torps. He was blown up practically before I was done putting my drink down.
Run Borg STF's and I shut down runs to the time portal or to kill the kang. I hold out ok in adding damage. A few ships do go to break the well. But they were slowed enough for me to either chew through the shields or drop a tractor on them and put them right back in. And so far I have not seen a ship beat targeting his engines while tractored in a gravity well. He is held.
I admit I have not fought in ship to ship PvP yet. So maybe the builds are not great against another player. But I have yet to find a science skill with no use.
The photonic fleet that was maligned a few pages back? Best captain power out there. What go down fighting? So when I am dying I can kamikaze better? Superior engineer? If hurting I get one extra heal. Photonic fleet. Arrive as soon as in combat range pop your damage adding fleet. When it cools down repeat. Seems the other two ship powers are less useful. Toss in your various earnable fleet boost and the admiral emergency fleet and you keep adding power.
So to me, Science for the win! :cool:
Originally Posted by pwlaughingtrendy
Network engineers are not ship designers.
Nor should they be. Their ships would look weird.
PVE is pathetically easy in general. It has nothing on PVP. 90% of builds people use in PVE, generally will die horribly in PVP.
I do agree though, I love my caitian and Gorn Scientists, they are incredibly fun to play.
Looks to me like they DECIDED (or at least graduated towards) DPS centered content a long time ago so so now the "player base" is DPS centered, not the other way around. Every day, I see less Star Trek fans and more kids and gamers playing. This is rather obvious by the conversations that take place. I'm not sure when bacon became a more popular topic in ESD than Troi, but it has happened. Cryptic/PWE has created the player base they have by disappointing certain people and keeping well satiated DPS jockeys.
If your post is anything like, "I have a sandwich so you can't be starving" it's time to rethink posting. ~thlaylierah