Critics & Fans Agree...

sander233 · April 2013

- The original contents of this embarrassing and shameful post have been removed by the drunken idiot who posted it. -

EDIT: (4/28/2013 1351PDT)

I would like to apologize to everyone I offended (especially harryhausen) with the original contents of this post and the replies which follow.

This shameful, troll-baiting wall-o-text was created while my judgment and intelligence were impaired by an elevated blood-alcohol content.

While this is a poor excuse, it is the only one I have to offer. (Unless you're willing to buy that I was temporarily transposed with myself from the Mirror Universe)

I humbly ask for your forgiveness and I beg of you - if any of you ever see me pull anything like this again, please ask how much I've had to drink.

Play nice, don't feed the trolls, and DON'T DRINK AND POST. - Sander

harryhausen · April 2013

Apology not necessary, really, but accepted nonetheless. Removed in deference.

sander233 · April 2013

- Deleted for stupidity -

With sincerest apologies to harryhausen

harryhausen · April 2013

Removed in deference.

sander233 · April 2013

- deleted for stupidity and rudeness -

Again with sincerest apologies to harryhausen.

harryhausen · April 2013

Removed in deference.

erikmodi · April 2013

I say. . . who cares? Like what you like, for the reasons you like it.

The only thing that really bothers me is when people just jump on the "it sucks" bandwagon for no real reason, or exaggerate "yeah, there are a few flaws" into OMYGODITSOAWFULHOWCOULDTHEYBESODUM. The simply fact is. . . you can't please all of the people, all of the time.

Just sit back, relax, and enjoy what you like for what it is, instead of whining about why it isn't what you expected or blasting people who did enjoy it or trying to convince someone who didn't like it that they're wrong.

sander233 · April 2013

- deleted -

With further apologies to harryhausen.

podsix · April 2013

I liked Star Trek 5. It was like the best two episodes of TOS ever.

But that's the key to appreciating Star Trek 5.. don't compare it to the rest of the the "Harve Trek" (2-6) franchise.. instead, compare Star Trek V to Star Trek.

It's got goofball moments with Scotty, mind control, a ship takeover, a great barrier to traverse, a 'steal the guards uniforms' break-in, a proper shootout, a bar fight, a religious fanatic, a being pretending to be god. STV has some of the best Kirk/Spock/McCoy scenes of the ENTIRE franchise, and is pretty much the only time since TOS that we get close to McCoy as a character, and really learn about him.

While STV didn't excel in terms of high drama, or in terms of making the Klingons look good (other than their vunderful muscles), Star Trek V has a fond place in my heart, as the only TOS trek film that really felt like the characters from TOS.

harryhausen · April 2013

Removed in deference.

sander233 · April 2013

oh god, another one

- deleted -

harryhausen, I am so sorry.

harryhausen · April 2013

Removed in deference.

mirrorchaos · April 2013

sander233 wrote: »

So with all the TRIBBLE flying around Ten Forward this week about "Why does nobody love Nemesis" and "OMG JJ sucks lol" and all the troll-baiting and flaming that goes with these posts, I thought I'd throw in some actual facts to provide some perspective.

Problem with this is that what you consider an "actual fact" without it being proven by multiple sources saying the same thing and more then a few thousand voters but instead you want millions that actually watched it to give their view...

sander233 wrote: »

So now, kids, it's time for a brand new episode of...
Sander Presents: Really Inconvenient Truths: The Trek Movie Edition

you know thats troll baiting right?

sander233 wrote: »

On this episode, we examine a countdown of what Critics and Fans by and large agree are the Best (and Worst!) Trek Movies of All Time. The ratings come to us from the users at IMDB.com - this tells us what average fans think of these movies. The Metascore comes from Metacritic.com and represents an aggregate of the grade these films scored with professional film critics. The ranking is based on an average of these two scores. ((Rating x 10) + metascore)/2. If you don't understand this formula, consider retaking 7th-grade prealgebra.

Before we get going, I need to stress that these rankings come to us from average fans like you and from film critics who are paid to review movies to help their readers make an informed decision. You can argue all you want, but these are real numbers that come from real people.

Average fans? there is no such thing as a honest fan, each person has their own opinion on each thing, i mean the perfect example blow in 11th place, people love that film if it wasnt as popular by votes alone, and just because it had more or less votes doesnt mean the storyline itself was worse then it looks which makes this a pointless waste of time since its not accurate.

sander233 wrote: »

Let's start with number 11. No surprise here:

#11 - Star Trek V: The Final Frontier (1989) - Ratings: 5.2/10 from 29,036 users - Metascore: 43/100 - Average: 47.5

Everybody see how that works? Average score is under 50 = crappy Trek movie. Let's roll along.

#10 - Star Trek: The Motion Picture (1979) - Ratings: 6.3/10 from 40,683 users - Metascore: 48/100 - Average: 55.5

#9 - Star Trek: Nemesis (2002) - Ratings: 6.3/10 from 40,744 users - Metascore: 51/100 - Average: 57

Looks like we have a tie for 8th place...

#8t - Star Trek: Generations (1994) - Ratings: 6.5/10 from 41,081 users - Metascore: 55/100 - Average: 60

#8t - Star Trek III: The Search for Spock (1984) - Ratings: 6.5/10 from 38,054 users - Metascore: 55/100 - Average: 60

Surprise at number six - a rare case where critics are more forgiving than the fans...

#6 - Star Trek: Insurrection (1998) - Ratings: 6.3/10 from 39,228 users - Metascore: 64/100 - Average: 63.5

And now we get to the "good ones"...

#5 - Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country (1991) - Ratings: 7.1/10 from 37,299 users - Metascore: 65/100 - Average: 68

#4 - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home (1986) - Ratings: 7.2/10 from 40,202 users - Metascore: 67/100 - Average: 69.5

#3 - Star Trek: First Contact (1996) - Ratings: 7.5/10 from 70,523 users - Metascore: 71/100 - Average: 73

#2 - Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan (1982) - Ratings: 7.7/10 from 60,319 users - Metascore: 70/100 - Average: 73.5

Best trek series of films ever. offered a heck of a lot of humor and a sort of family spirit.

sander233 wrote: »

And the Trek Movie that both critics and fans agree is the Greatest Trek Movie Of All Time is (gasp...)

#1 - Star Trek (2009) - Ratings: 8.0/10 from 298,255 users - Metascore: 83/100 - Average: 81.5

look at the amount of voters though, you wll probably find then honest voters are bias like myself to one style and even if you combined them, it shows that old trek is still more popular then the new abramscrapverse.

sander233 wrote: »

...Aaaaand that's why we call the program Really Inconvenient Truths. Whine and moan all you want, JJ haters! But there's the facts.

your bias is already known so its not a fact hunt your looking for its a troll hunt. so i could report this but luckily for you its not in general.

sander233 wrote: »

See you next time kids! :cool:

Written, Produced, Directed by and Starring: Sander
Facts contributed by: IMDB.com and Metacritic.com

yeah, goodbye, go away.

Unknown · April 2013

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centersolace · April 2013

patrickngo wrote: »

When was the last time you actually ENJOYED watching an Oscar winning movie? not the ones nominated for effects or music, but 'Best Picture' nominations?

seriously, name ONE you actually LIKED.

Oscar nominations end up being for either "OMG that's so awesome" (Special effects/music/etc) or for "Oh, that's so Artsy and 'challenging' and the top-tier actors and the name director mean it HAS to be so good I didn't understand and/or appreciate it, plus it's Topical..."

IOW the Oscars tend to forget that movies exist to ENTERTAIN the audience.

Take that into account for a moment, and think about the movies you actually enjoy watching.

There's a valid point in there. I think the last film I truly enjoyed that won an Oscar was "The Kings Speech", and before that was "Spirited Away". But I don't care much for the Oscars for that exact reason anyway. How can you when a movie like "Nell" could get nominated, and the something like "Summer Wars" gets passed up? No accounting for taste I guess.

(Seriously, what the hell man?)

patrickngo wrote: »

But I remembered Nero, Nero had qu
otable lines, quotable quotes, personality and theatrical presence, he WAS his half of the story-he could've been tooling around in a D'deridex and done the same job (differently) and still would've worked as a 'bad guy', because he was well written and well acted, and his irrational actions made a certain amount of sense in that they were the actions of a man in a state of supreme irrationality.

"FIRE IT!!!!!! FIRE EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!"

Okay yeah, I can see where you're coming from. And for the most I did, and do enjoy JJTrek while I'm watching it. Except for when Sluthura was on screen. I die a little inside every time she's on screen. It makes me feel unclean.

jbmaverick · April 2013

I would like to add that critic ratings and movie "value" has changed significantly over the years since the older Star Trek movies were created and reviewed. You can't really compare reviews for movies that are so distant in terms of release time. Secondly, you can't really look at IMDb for aggregate individual reviews because a large number of the people who truly enjoyed the older Star Treks aren't nearly as likely to go online to add their vote because most of the people from that time period aren't nearly so caught up in social networking and "the interwebs" as a large number of the people who have seen the more recent movies (which at least partially accounts for the huge difference in the number of individual ratings for #1 Star Trek (2009) vs #2 Wrath of Khan)

jonsills · April 2013

Okay, Harry, gonna break it down for you.

The fallacy you have been committing (for some time now) is to act as if your opinion were objective fact. You slam the use of critics, because "those are just their opinions" - then you deride those of us who enjoyed the last ST movie, and didn't particularly enjoy Insurrection or Nemesis, as "dumb".

You have an opinion. I have a different opinion. I think I know why you have the opinion that you do (although I still can't understand how you can overlook the gutting of the TNG characters in those two movies - nobody played the character they spent seven years creating on TV; they all played caricatures of themselves). However, I readily acknowledge that my opinions are opinions, not fact. And neither are yours.

And if your opinions have to be treated as if they can be the basis for factual statements ("It's ruined forever!!"), so too do the opinions of others. You can't have it both ways.

anazonda · April 2013

sander233 wrote: »

...Aaaaand that's why we call the program Really Inconvenient Truths. Whine and moan all you want, JJ haters! But there's the facts.

Considering the resistance towards the JJ movie from long-time start trek fans I see in the forums I , I'd say those "facts" as you so elegantly present them may not be fact at all... Only a representative-fact of the newcomers to Star Trek...

Comparatively, newcomers to Star Trek probably don't like the core franchise, pre-JJ.

You should'n accept random, unverified numbers, without having a clue to where they came from, or who the audience were.

jjumetley · April 2013

On most occasions people will pick the newest entry to the franchise as the best (only if it's not a TOTAL TRIBBLE). Have a look at the case of James Bond. Don't you think there's something odd about people saying Daniel Craig is better than Sean Connery? Or that Skyfall (while being a really good film - mind you) is the BEST film in the franchise? Come on...

Star Trek XI was OK but there are better ones.

khayuung · April 2013

I think the old star trek films were terrible. The TV shows were great, but that kind of plot format would never work in theatres outside of Japan (in Japan, TV season finales often get screened in hour-long theatre features, which in a sense, most of the pre-Abrams trek films were.)

Abrams Trek is Star Trek for the movies. Formulaic and cliche, with loads of bells and whistles. Its not really bad, its just different.

If only the big guns understand that and make a proper non-Abrams TV series as well as the JJ films, like how the TNG/Sovvie movies were used alongside a TV series.

Unknown · April 2013

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scififan78 · April 2013

The problem here is that whether a movie is good or not, is completely subjective. What is good to one person may not be good to another. I personally enjoyed Nemesis. I also liked the Star Trek reboot movie. There have been several movies that got "great" reviews from critics and movie goers alike that I absolutely hated [cough]Gangs of New York[\cough]. There really is not a debate about it. As for those scores, think about how many people hated the movies so much that they are nothing more than an afterthought to them. They would not waste their time to score them on some website. The only way you would get an objective view on what the "people" liked would be to poll every last man, woman, and child on the planet. We all know how foolish that would be to try.

jkstocbr · April 2013

Do you think maybe the massive difference in Number of Votes (298,255 V's avg 40,000) has anything to do with it? Or the amount to time that has passed since the 'Oldies'? Perhaps the generational change of the Star Trek Consumer? :rolleyes:

Star Trek for the average long time Trekker means something very different to the new 'Lense Flare Fan'. It is a different kind of trek ... one that I am not a fan of regardless of votes. Same reason I am not a fan of Twilight, The Voice, Dancing With the Stars, or Glee

jexsamx · April 2013

mirrorchaos wrote: »

look at the amount of voters though, you wll probably find then honest voters are bias like myself to one style and even if you combined them, it shows that old trek is still more popular then the new abramscrapverse.

On a movie-by-movie basis, the numbers show that not only did many more people rate ST'09 than any previous Trek movie, they rated it higher on average.

There's no other way you can look at it. You could combine the other movies' numbers into one massive lump, but the average rating of all those viewers over all those Trek movies would still be lower than the rating for ST'09.

Keep in mind, though, that a popular vote isn't necessarily a indicator of quality, and furthermore ST'09 hasn't had the chance to stand the test of time. All OP proved is that a four-year-old movie with a wider target market has a better average score than other movies several times its age with a fraction of the reviews. It's hardly a definitive indicator of quality.

Unknown · April 2013

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commandersalvek · April 2013

So let me understand this -because a website posts a list up -rates ST 2009 as the best or most popular film out of that list and that makes it a good film?

Its Subjective

To me it was well done getting the Big 3 back -the new actors capturing each .

Looks nice fx wise-

Story is terrible

Nero is the worst movie trek villain I have seen -one dimensional Khan rip off -what waste a of eric bana.

But it got non "trekkies" in the cinemas -they had fun -generic big spaceship movie-stupid sized ships blowing up planets -no need to worry about trek backstory -jj did not

Ok than keep your list -I certainly will use my own judgement on that movie.

capnmanx · April 2013

Was it ever really disputed that the 2009 film was the most popular Trek film? It's just that many fans of old Trek don't like how it went about achieving this.

This kind of stuff happens any time something with a devoted fan base 'sells out' and aims for a broader audience; because it's messing with a formula that is close to the fans hearts. I know people who flat refuse to watch the recent Batman movies, for the same reason.

It seems stupid and irrational to anyone who doesn't feel the same way; but passion generally does ('fan' is short for 'fanatic' after all).

cptjhunter · April 2013

(Stands up, and makes a slow golf clap) A troll thread, complaining about trolling. I salute you OP.

marcusdkane · April 2013

I'm not going to re-hash my comments on JJ or the JJVerse. Those're my opinions and I stand by them. Something I want to make clear, is that even if I disagree with someone else opinon and will not change my opinion simply to fit theirs, I do appreciate that people like different things to me and respect that. Instead, I'd like to point out a few other things with regards my likes and dislikes...

I thoroughly enjoy watching The King's Speech. Yes, I'm British, but I am no Royalist. Infact, I'd be only too happy to see the royal family get the French and Russian treatment. That would be a show I would pay good money to go and see live... But back on point... I really like the film, but, it's not one which I can sit down to more than once every few months.

I absolutely love The Avengers (hate the UK title, refuse to use it). It's recently started showing on Sky, and last week, I think I watched it three nights in a row, enjoying it as much each time. Why? Great storyline, well developed characters, epic battle? No... I love Scarlett Johansson's TRIBBLE and goddamn it is nicely framed in that movie :P Joking aside, I actually really like the characterizations and the interplay between them (especially Stark and Banner and Loki and Natasha) and the only time I actually get bored in it is during the end battle... All that crash bang pew pew pew just detracts from the wonder of Ms Johansson's buttocks, and simply drags... I do like the bit where Stark puts the nuke through the vortex and saves the day, but the depleted arc reactor when he falls has been used before, and lacks any impact (considering the fact that he is still being kept alive by the vibranium core arc reactor in his chest...) Review aside, this is a film I can watch daily and still enjoy...

Next up, is 2 Fast 2 Furious... This is a film I enjoy so much, I can watch it through, press play on the DVD, watch it through again immediately, and then press play again and watch it another time and still enjoy it :eek: The only other movie I can do this with, is the New Zealand movie Stickmen (No, it's not TRIBBLE TRIBBLE, it's a comedy/drama about three best friends who get roped into an underground pool tournament and the ensuing shenanigans) Why do I enjoy this film so much? Eva Mendes doesn't really do it for me (Neither do Paul Walker, Tyrese Gibson or Cole Hauser, before you wonder!

) but there is just something about the film, an energy which hooks the attention and drags me along for the ride each and every time. By contrast, I can't do the same with any of the other Fast movies (although Fast 5 is a close second favorite in the series, but even then, it's only an "every few months if it's on" movie, rather than a "Need my daily dose of Scarlett's TRIBBLE!!!" ) so it's not the subject matter in general, just that film in particular.

However... I would not rate 2 Fast 2 Furious as my Favorite Ever Movie (Stickmen) it is just hellishly watchable IMHO

Now we get to the Trek Section...

JJTrek is a movie I can only watch once every few months if I'm in the mood for it. I could watch WoK and SfS everyday, appreciate them each time, and get choked up by the death/resurrection of Spock each time. The only other piece of film which gets such an emotional response from me, is the death of Heather MacLeod in Highlander... Even then, Highlander is not a film I can watch even as frequently as the Avengers...

Anyhoo, that's enough about me and what I like in a movie, I'm off to get some groceries...

chandlerashari · April 2013

harryhausen wrote: »

So, according to you, based on these ratings, JJ Trek (83 on Metacritic) is a better movie than:

Silver Linings Playbook
Les Miserables
Django Unchained
The Hobbit
The Avengers
Dark Knight Rises
Cabin in the Woods

i do anyway

lordmalak1 · April 2013

marcusdkane wrote: »

Next up, is 2 Fast 2 Furious... This is a film I enjoy so much, I can watch it through, press play on the DVD, watch it through again immediately, and then press play again and watch it another time and still enjoy it :eek: The only other movie I can do this with, is the New Zealand movie Stickmen (No, it's not TRIBBLE TRIBBLE, it's a comedy/drama about three best friends who get roped into an underground pool tournament and the ensuing shenanigans) Why do I enjoy this film so much? Eva Mendes doesn't really do it for me (Neither do Paul Walker, Tyrese Gibson or Cole Hauser, before you wonder! ) but there is just something about the film, an energy which hooks the attention and drags me along for the ride each and every time. By contrast, I can't do the same with any of the other Fast movies (although Fast 5 is a close second favorite in the series, but even then, it's only an "every few months if it's on" movie, rather than a "Need my daily dose of Scarlett's TRIBBLE!!!" ) so it's not the subject matter in general, just that film in particular.

However... I would not rate 2 Fast 2 Furious as my Favorite Ever Movie (Stickmen) it is just hellishly watchable IMHO

Heh, I think Tokyo drift was the best of the bunch, tho the latest one is enjoyable up until they run the corvette into the ravine.
:eek:

Frakking criminal what they did to that beauty.

Critics & Fans Agree...

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