They have a few effective heals and buffs, weak offense and generally weak CC/debuff. Maybe if fewer of the CC/debuff abilities available to them hadn't been gimped in favor of tactical abilities they wouldn't need such a powerful ability as subnuc to put them on a more equal footing. I'll be in favor of nerfing subnuc when some other sci powers get a favorable balance pass.
Plus, subnuc is only as effective as the timing of the Science captain using it. Once it's been used, most of the tactical abilities can recycle much faster than it can. And the escort can evade and recover a lot easier than anybody else.
Also, Science captains have more skills to put points into than they have skill points to spend and in Space that lends itself to either overspecialized builds or weak ones. If you're getting whacked by a Sci, he's probably overspecialized in a specific area where you haven't loaded up on counters/resists.
I'd be willing to bet there's a chance that the fix for the SNB/BP bug results in an unfavorable change to subnuc, so a few people calling for a nerf might get their wish after all...
Thats a matter of opinion...
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
I'd be willing to bet there's a chance that the fix for the SNB/BP bug results in an unfavorable change to subnuc, so a few people calling for a nerf might get their wish after all...
Even that isn't really the case... the real issue is issues in the coding of the SS doff... its the only thing that has changed recently. There for its the most likely candidate. The boarding party doffs have been around for awhile... and they add extra shuttles. I don't see that coding "multiplying" things... however the way the SS doff work. I would say yes they are multiplying cool down increases from pretty much any source, including bp. (and boarding party has always existed past respawn... I just don't think anyone has ever complained because 1 they didnt' last all that long... and 2 anyone that got killed by a boarding party attack wouldn't admit it lol)
Totally my own semi-informed opinion and entirely subject to error.
However, I do stand by it.
I had no idea how much easier and faster the game plays as a tacscort until I rolled one. In comparison, it's practically effortless (in normal PvE). I blow right through stuff my other characters struggled with, and even when I'm on the verge of "kablooey" it's still more fun in some ways.
Could my engcruisers and sciscis do better? Probably. I know more about the game now than I did then and I'm gradually making adjustments. But it's still nowhere near as easy and the learning curve is steeper.
And I am totally going to put my sci in a vesta when the time is right. There's your OP, and about time, too.
My views may not represent those of Cryptic Studios or Perfect World Entertainment. You can file a "forums and website" support ticket here Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
I had no idea how much easier and faster the game plays as a tacscort until I rolled one. In comparison, it's practically effortless (in normal PvE). I blow right through stuff my other characters struggled with, and even when I'm on the verge of "kablooey" it's still more fun in some ways.
I have played a sci toon with a BoP and in an fed escort. TBH, I always let my other pandas play sci (jorf). I mainly did tac and later eng with a sci thorian carrier. I was becoming a good healer before I decided to quit. In the past I have always have played tac, and yes I have felt the wraith of SCI. Hell most of the time mai you were one of my favorite targets.
When I or some other tac would call we sometimes had to hold targets until sci had some cc or snb (mainly snb) or strip ready.
Tell me mai if sci was so weak why does each major pvp fleet bring them into battle? Granted, its not a stupidly op as it was a couple of seasons back. Nonetheless they can make a tac life miserable.
Veni Vidi Vici
Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
Totally my own semi-informed opinion and entirely subject to error.
However, I do stand by it.
I had no idea how much easier and faster the game plays as a tacscort until I rolled one. In comparison, it's practically effortless (in normal PvE). I blow right through stuff my other characters struggled with, and even when I'm on the verge of "kablooey" it's still more fun in some ways.
Could my engcruisers and sciscis do better? Probably. I know more about the game now than I did then and I'm gradually making adjustments. But it's still nowhere near as easy and the learning curve is steeper.
And I am totally going to put my sci in a vesta when the time is right. There's your OP, and about time, too.
That's because PvE - STO is a f'in DPS game. When I rolled my sci toon I put him in a escort and did just fine. You know why? Because the AI is TRIBBLE which depends on high health and has little thought and min sci. You saw what happen when the devs made the Romulan Warbird have thought and SCI? The PvErs cried foul and that it was too hard.
PvE is a joke because you can beat space stf infected with damn shuttles. Again you know why? Because the Borg does not use much SCI. If the Borg used SCI people would cry foul. Idea. Make Borg health lower and add more sci and tell me how "weak" sci is?
Veni Vidi Vici
Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
Hmmm, lets get this thread going so Cryptic will nerf the Science officer so that Engineers are not the only useless profession in PVP.
That way alll Tac officers can rule the day.
I got schwacked loads today by that bl**dy BP thing, 10 minute countdowns that took a further 6 minutes to clear in sector space! The PvP was over before it had even started because of it.
Tbh, the usual talk has come out, sci isnt overpowered wah wah wah, tac is overpowered wah wah wah!
I use both (Tac a lot more than sci I will say) and the sci in the right ship is utterly lethal in PvP and PvE.
Well, sci can debuff any tac with one click of a key, even one on alpha and debuff operation skills like tac team, then they stand back and watch a bug ship do the dirty work.
All I think needs to be done is improve the global CD on sci and tac teams (cos they share) or tone the subnuke back to 30seconds (Thats how long an alpha lasts) rather than 45 seconds. Also remove the stackability of it with other subnucs. Or increase the SNB cooldown to 3 minutes.
Many sci toons Ive come across have easily tanked a tac unless they themselves have been zapped.
If sci is soooo weak, why do many KDF toons use it in BoPs and Raptors? Thats a lethal combination.
I myself experimented with a sci'scort and had rather interesting results but being tier nothing my extra buffs from reputation are non existant, its amazing how squishy you are pre rep stuff.
However a properly made and skilled Science ship can totally destroy the tac-escort, but all the noobs whining how weak science and cruiser ships are don't know this.
So yes, the science can be the deadliest in PVP. But it needs a lot of skill.
Let us wear Swimsuits on Foundry maps or bridges please! I would pay zen for that.
However a properly made and skilled Science ship can totally destroy the tac-escort, but all the noobs whining how weak science and cruiser ships are don't know this.
So yes, the science can be the deadliest in PVP. But it needs a lot of skill.
I couldnt agree more. Sci in the right hands is utterly deadly, done right, they dont need DPS. It does take skill, but then again, lasting more than 5 seconds in an escort when a sci targets you in a PvP requires spirit fingers and a prayer (unless you happen to be in the miracle bug ships I see about, you know, the ones that have mega high speed yet all the usual shield buffs/heals as well and DPS to match, oh and the the resistance ignore and what at times seems like 100% resistance to everything but thats for another thread.)
@retrosrages - That's because cryptic has little interest in pvp. I remember ramblings once pwe bought crypitc we would have more pvp content. Yeah.. still waiting.
I suggest more pvpers read this:
5 Stages of loss and grief and your see how it relates to sto pvp. Except crypitc wont pull pvp off of life support so the greif never ends in pvp.
They wont even add a new F8ing map.
Veni Vidi Vici
Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
First off all, sci is for sure not op since the last nerf. I mean look at all the drain resistences you get now from a t2 skill in your skilltree. All the drains like cpb or tachyon beam or tarbet sub are more or less useless.
Would be the same like if you have a passive captain skill that grants you 50% or so resistence to dmg. Imagine the thread you get on the forum if there would be a thing like that.
Tbr and Grav well are partly useful, but not as useful as they were before.
And ok Subnuke is heavy if you get hit by it, but with a 2 min cd it isn`t that big of a deal. The cd increase and the snb can easy cleared by a sci team anyways. If you don?t have one, ask your teammates.
And the nice Sensor Analysis you get on a sci ship (the passive that increases dmg) is pointless in pvp also, cause you never stay long enough on target to get a noticable effect.
So basically the snb is more or less the only really good skill sci has left.
If you want to complain about op things, complain about things like the tachyon mines or similar stuff.
And btw. if a team works together well it is always deadly.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
Well from my understanding of the game, the whole point of Sci is to allow tacs to take advantage by having the extra power over the enemy, hence the sci can strip the target with one push of a key.
The sci is not meant to be able to go toe to toe with 2 tacs and win using its sci skills alone.
Sci is support/strip/heal
Engineer/hull heal/support
Tac damage/damage/damage.
1 sci, 1 engineer and 3 tac for a standard 5 toon team.
You count on everyone being in a premade. Well some of us dont get that privilege so have to take what we can get.
As it stands, we all know engineer is pretty pointless at the moment which is why many premades are now using multiple sci knowing full well that the skill is overpowered and stacks for hellish CD timers, 0 resistances and an easy kill even for a heal boat.
The fact that as a tac with an escort, you have to be careful what skills are used due to limited BOff setup, sci team shares a global with tac team and engineer team, use a tac team (If you can that is) you keep your shields up longer, use a sci team and you die anyway. Lose lose situation really unless you have a great well communicating team who are well practised.
What about the majority that dont have that nicety?
A sci by the mechanics of the game should be able to tank through a tac or even 2 at times, but being able to destroy them as well?
A sci is not a battle ship, its a research/support ship!
Well from my understanding of the game, the whole point of Sci is to allow tacs to take advantage by having the extra power over the enemy, hence the sci can strip the target with one push of a key.
The sci is not meant to be able to go toe to toe with 2 tacs and win using its sci skills alone.
If the tacs know what they are doing a sci will not be able to survive against 2 tacs for long. But it would depend which ships the single ppl are using as well. But i guess with tacs you mean escorts and with sci you mean sci ships.
Sci is support/strip/heal
Engineer/hull heal/support
Tac damage/damage/damage.
1 sci, 1 engineer and 3 tac for a standard 5 toon team.
Which would mean you always have that setup in a team, which is not the case. And about how much strip ability besides snb a sci has left is a matter of discussion. As i already mentioned with all the resists agaisnt drains now, there is not much stripping left. Leaving aside such thing like the syphon drones or the tachyon mines (which everyone can use).
You count on everyone being in a premade. Well some of us dont get that privilege so have to take what we can get.
As it stands, we all know engineer is pretty pointless at the moment which is why many premades are now using multiple sci knowing full well that the skill is overpowered and stacks for hellish CD timers, 0 resistances and an easy kill even for a heal boat.
No i am not counting on being in a premade all the time, most the times i am in random teams also. Some work better, others don?t. And as i said, snb and the cd is easy cleared by a sci team, whihc means if it is so anoying for you, carry one. Sometimes you are lucky with a random group, sometimes not. Basically you can be happy if you not having someone just sitting at the spawn.
The fact that as a tac with an escort, you have to be careful what skills are used due to limited BOff setup, sci team shares a global with tac team and engineer team, use a tac team (If you can that is) you keep your shields up longer, use a sci team and you die anyway. Lose lose situation really unless you have a great well communicating team who are well practised.
What about the majority that dont have that nicety?
A sci by the mechanics of the game should be able to tank through a tac or even 2 at times, but being able to destroy them as well?
A sci is not a battle ship, its a research/support ship!
So since when aren`t the boff setups not limited for eng and sci also?
Btw. the Boff layout is a ship specific thing, so everyone has to face it.
If you don`t have a tac team you are vulnerable to boarding parties, if you don`t have a eng team to target subsystems. So where is the point? Every ppl has to live wiht the benefits and drawbacks from certain boff layouts the ships have.
As example, i nearly never carry a tac team cause i don`t have the free slot for it with my current setup. There will always be situations which you won`t survive if you don`t get the needed support from your team, and even with their support there are still situations you will not survive.
And as already mentioned above, if the tacs know what they are doing you will not survive for long cause you run out of heals and buffs. Which is like it should be. If you are in a 2 on 1 situation and not way better then your 2 oponents, you normally do not win.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
sci is by no means weak.... but its hardly "overpowered" either. Tac captains in escorts are the most dangerous things in the game.... sci just makes them that much more deadly which is why pvp is a team game, your cruisers should be there to make sure that science powers dont end you. When i play in organized pvp games (not pug) the games are fairly balanced especially when you coordinate. You get close and even games because each ship and captain plays its role. And I just dont see how a support role such as sci can be considered "overpowered"
Yep, kinda easy to find out if you look at the ships in my signature. But besides that most of the "problems" you brought up, apply for any class and any ship.
Btw i forgot to mention, if you find your Boff layout so limited, maybe you should try a different ship?
And another add to the survive 2 tac things. There are escort players in this game who can kill you in an blink if you are 1 sec to late with a skill or make a mistake, no matter which class or ship you use. On the other side there are also ppl which you can tank endlessly.
There are also escorts out there (and i asume you are talking about tacs in escorts when you say tacs, not that tacs fly other ships too...) which are quite tanky for an escort.
Reynolds/Thokal
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class/R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit TheWiseGuys
Comments
Thats a matter of opinion...
There is no "SNB bug". BP is another matter.
Even that isn't really the case... the real issue is issues in the coding of the SS doff... its the only thing that has changed recently. There for its the most likely candidate. The boarding party doffs have been around for awhile... and they add extra shuttles. I don't see that coding "multiplying" things... however the way the SS doff work. I would say yes they are multiplying cool down increases from pretty much any source, including bp.
Yep.
No argument there.
Totally my own semi-informed opinion and entirely subject to error.
However, I do stand by it.
I had no idea how much easier and faster the game plays as a tacscort until I rolled one. In comparison, it's practically effortless (in normal PvE). I blow right through stuff my other characters struggled with, and even when I'm on the verge of "kablooey" it's still more fun in some ways.
Could my engcruisers and sciscis do better? Probably. I know more about the game now than I did then and I'm gradually making adjustments. But it's still nowhere near as easy and the learning curve is steeper.
And I am totally going to put my sci in a vesta when the time is right. There's your OP, and about time, too.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
This is the PvP forum
have you ever played as a science toon?
how about as ascience ship?
how about both at the same time?
Do you even Science Bro?
I have played a sci toon with a BoP and in an fed escort. TBH, I always let my other pandas play sci (jorf). I mainly did tac and later eng with a sci thorian carrier. I was becoming a good healer before I decided to quit. In the past I have always have played tac, and yes I have felt the wraith of SCI. Hell most of the time mai you were one of my favorite targets.
When I or some other tac would call we sometimes had to hold targets until sci had some cc or snb (mainly snb) or strip ready.
Tell me mai if sci was so weak why does each major pvp fleet bring them into battle? Granted, its not a stupidly op as it was a couple of seasons back. Nonetheless they can make a tac life miserable.
Veni Vidi Vici
Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
2+ Sci coordinating together spells doom for all.
*By Sci, I mean Sci ship.
That's because PvE - STO is a f'in DPS game. When I rolled my sci toon I put him in a escort and did just fine. You know why? Because the AI is TRIBBLE which depends on high health and has little thought and min sci. You saw what happen when the devs made the Romulan Warbird have thought and SCI? The PvErs cried foul and that it was too hard.
PvE is a joke because you can beat space stf infected with damn shuttles. Again you know why? Because the Borg does not use much SCI. If the Borg used SCI people would cry foul. Idea. Make Borg health lower and add more sci and tell me how "weak" sci is?
Veni Vidi Vici
Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
That way alll Tac officers can rule the day.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=593531
Hrmm....
I am all for killing SCI. They nerf SCI to the ground I will re-buy my LTS lol (well maybe not). Damn!t, why do sci threads always troll me?
Veni Vidi Vici
Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
I got schwacked loads today by that bl**dy BP thing, 10 minute countdowns that took a further 6 minutes to clear in sector space! The PvP was over before it had even started because of it.
Tbh, the usual talk has come out, sci isnt overpowered wah wah wah, tac is overpowered wah wah wah!
I use both (Tac a lot more than sci I will say) and the sci in the right ship is utterly lethal in PvP and PvE.
Well, sci can debuff any tac with one click of a key, even one on alpha and debuff operation skills like tac team, then they stand back and watch a bug ship do the dirty work.
All I think needs to be done is improve the global CD on sci and tac teams (cos they share) or tone the subnuke back to 30seconds (Thats how long an alpha lasts) rather than 45 seconds. Also remove the stackability of it with other subnucs. Or increase the SNB cooldown to 3 minutes.
Many sci toons Ive come across have easily tanked a tac unless they themselves have been zapped.
If sci is soooo weak, why do many KDF toons use it in BoPs and Raptors? Thats a lethal combination.
I myself experimented with a sci'scort and had rather interesting results but being tier nothing my extra buffs from reputation are non existant, its amazing how squishy you are pre rep stuff.
An escort is much better then a bad sci player.
However a properly made and skilled Science ship can totally destroy the tac-escort, but all the noobs whining how weak science and cruiser ships are don't know this.
So yes, the science can be the deadliest in PVP. But it needs a lot of skill.
I couldnt agree more. Sci in the right hands is utterly deadly, done right, they dont need DPS. It does take skill, but then again, lasting more than 5 seconds in an escort when a sci targets you in a PvP requires spirit fingers and a prayer (unless you happen to be in the miracle bug ships I see about, you know, the ones that have mega high speed yet all the usual shield buffs/heals as well and DPS to match, oh and the the resistance ignore and what at times seems like 100% resistance to everything but thats for another thread.)
I suggest more pvpers read this:
5 Stages of loss and grief and your see how it relates to sto pvp. Except crypitc wont pull pvp off of life support so the greif never ends in pvp.
They wont even add a new F8ing map.
Veni Vidi Vici
Confucius says "A Panda is most dangerous when Sad".
Would be the same like if you have a passive captain skill that grants you 50% or so resistence to dmg. Imagine the thread you get on the forum if there would be a thing like that.
Tbr and Grav well are partly useful, but not as useful as they were before.
And ok Subnuke is heavy if you get hit by it, but with a 2 min cd it isn`t that big of a deal. The cd increase and the snb can easy cleared by a sci team anyways. If you don?t have one, ask your teammates.
And the nice Sensor Analysis you get on a sci ship (the passive that increases dmg) is pointless in pvp also, cause you never stay long enough on target to get a noticable effect.
So basically the snb is more or less the only really good skill sci has left.
If you want to complain about op things, complain about things like the tachyon mines or similar stuff.
And btw. if a team works together well it is always deadly.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
The sci is not meant to be able to go toe to toe with 2 tacs and win using its sci skills alone.
Sci is support/strip/heal
Engineer/hull heal/support
Tac damage/damage/damage.
1 sci, 1 engineer and 3 tac for a standard 5 toon team.
You count on everyone being in a premade. Well some of us dont get that privilege so have to take what we can get.
As it stands, we all know engineer is pretty pointless at the moment which is why many premades are now using multiple sci knowing full well that the skill is overpowered and stacks for hellish CD timers, 0 resistances and an easy kill even for a heal boat.
The fact that as a tac with an escort, you have to be careful what skills are used due to limited BOff setup, sci team shares a global with tac team and engineer team, use a tac team (If you can that is) you keep your shields up longer, use a sci team and you die anyway. Lose lose situation really unless you have a great well communicating team who are well practised.
What about the majority that dont have that nicety?
A sci by the mechanics of the game should be able to tank through a tac or even 2 at times, but being able to destroy them as well?
A sci is not a battle ship, its a research/support ship!
If the tacs know what they are doing a sci will not be able to survive against 2 tacs for long. But it would depend which ships the single ppl are using as well. But i guess with tacs you mean escorts and with sci you mean sci ships.
Which would mean you always have that setup in a team, which is not the case. And about how much strip ability besides snb a sci has left is a matter of discussion. As i already mentioned with all the resists agaisnt drains now, there is not much stripping left. Leaving aside such thing like the syphon drones or the tachyon mines (which everyone can use).
No i am not counting on being in a premade all the time, most the times i am in random teams also. Some work better, others don?t. And as i said, snb and the cd is easy cleared by a sci team, whihc means if it is so anoying for you, carry one. Sometimes you are lucky with a random group, sometimes not. Basically you can be happy if you not having someone just sitting at the spawn.
So since when aren`t the boff setups not limited for eng and sci also?
Btw. the Boff layout is a ship specific thing, so everyone has to face it.
If you don`t have a tac team you are vulnerable to boarding parties, if you don`t have a eng team to target subsystems. So where is the point? Every ppl has to live wiht the benefits and drawbacks from certain boff layouts the ships have.
As example, i nearly never carry a tac team cause i don`t have the free slot for it with my current setup. There will always be situations which you won`t survive if you don`t get the needed support from your team, and even with their support there are still situations you will not survive.
And as already mentioned above, if the tacs know what they are doing you will not survive for long cause you run out of heals and buffs. Which is like it should be. If you are in a 2 on 1 situation and not way better then your 2 oponents, you normally do not win.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys
Yep, kinda easy to find out if you look at the ships in my signature. But besides that most of the "problems" you brought up, apply for any class and any ship.
Btw i forgot to mention, if you find your Boff layout so limited, maybe you should try a different ship?
And another add to the survive 2 tac things. There are escort players in this game who can kill you in an blink if you are 1 sec to late with a skill or make a mistake, no matter which class or ship you use. On the other side there are also ppl which you can tank endlessly.
There are also escorts out there (and i asume you are talking about tacs in escorts when you say tacs, not that tacs fly other ships too...) which are quite tanky for an escort.
U.S.S. Helios -Vesta Class / R.R.W. Dark Science - Dyson Surveillance Science Destroyer
U.S.S. Donut - Fleet Advanced Research Vessel Retrofit
TheWiseGuys