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human boffs
borgresearcher
Member Posts: 451 Arc User
yesterday i was testing the effect of photonick shockwave and its disable as a viable option for pvp, that, of course, ended as a deception because the disable is ... well, there is not any disable, at least a disable that will let me to get that window of oportunity to do damage directly into the hull, because it doesnt disable shields, useless science skills ... aff, well, and my brother had a theta and i decided to use it against my vesta and see what happens... after my crew going to 0, i went to check out my hull repair and loled a lot,
human trait is leadership, incentivating the crew to repair the ship faster, but if there is no crew, what is there to incentivate ?
tested ship haves 750 crew, no biofunction and no khg passive with 5 human boffs
in combat : 163% in combat with all crew
146% without crew
out of combat : 280% hull repair rate with all crew
175% without crew
now without human boffs, same ship, without biofunction consoles or khg passive
in combat: 63% with all crew
46% without crew
out of combat: 140% with all crew
75% without crew
it just adds 100% hull repair even if you are out of crew, giving much more benefit to ships with less crew cap
isn't that op ? considering that an escort now can have a constant hazard emmiters on. causing it to tank almost as much as a cruiser or a carrier that is without human boffs or any crew? carriers are almost impossible to kill with 5 human boffs, of course if you are not tactical.
and what about klingons ? whats the effect this has on pvp ? i haven't thought about it, because i thought the repair rate given by human boffs was proportional to the %crew of the ship, but even with 0 crew i had almost 150% crew repair in combat, thats very stupid and unfair for ship with lots of crew, and incredibly op for ships with less ammounts of crew, compensating their lack of crew and suposed lack of hull repair
how it should be :
for example if you have a ship with 1000 crew, you are getting a 100% extra repair rate
but if you lost 500 crew, the human boffs should only give 50% repair rate
and if you are out of crew, the human boffs shouldnt give any repair rate (making the ammount of crew on the ship to matter again, just the way its suposed to be, not .king overpowering escorts)
each human boff provides 20% hull repair rate and 20% subsystem repair ( subsystem repair reaching 100% plus inertial dampers, that's a 150% resistance to disables, countering a Lot science disables and phaser procs, of course. )
that is a total of 100% repair rate, and that should be if you are 100% on crew, the 100% repair rate given by human boffs should be 100% based on the % of live crew you have on your ship
because the way it is right now is pretty op, making escorts to tank a lot, making things unbalanced to klingons, i am a fed, and i rarely play on my klingon alt, but i imagine how klingons feel about this
making human boffs to be proportional to the % of crew should fix it, if a ship is out of crew, you wont have any bonus hull repair, NOT making escorts to have more than 100% repair rate with 0 crew, regenerating more hull than a karfi with all the crew, i mean, isnt that the point of escorts having less amount of crew ? to regenerate less hull ?
but i guess this is what all people will say : "get over it man, you are a noob, learn to play as a scientist, do your incredible photonick shockwave to disable my skills for 0.1 seconds while i use my attack pattern omega that ONLY gives me dmg, resistance, turn rate, and immunity to almost all the ways you have to kill me! my jhas is good the way it is, regenerating lots of hull, and boosting all the dmg i can with my tactical captain skills, allowing me to boost feedbackpulse and repulsors better than you, causing the nerf of all your skills !"
but i dont care, i seek balance, how can you live with human boffs beeing a klingon ? knowing that your karfi isn't getting as much hull repair as your fed enemy escort out of crew ?
human trait is leadership, incentivating the crew to repair the ship faster, but if there is no crew, what is there to incentivate ?
tested ship haves 750 crew, no biofunction and no khg passive with 5 human boffs
in combat : 163% in combat with all crew
146% without crew
out of combat : 280% hull repair rate with all crew
175% without crew
now without human boffs, same ship, without biofunction consoles or khg passive
in combat: 63% with all crew
46% without crew
out of combat: 140% with all crew
75% without crew
it just adds 100% hull repair even if you are out of crew, giving much more benefit to ships with less crew cap
isn't that op ? considering that an escort now can have a constant hazard emmiters on. causing it to tank almost as much as a cruiser or a carrier that is without human boffs or any crew? carriers are almost impossible to kill with 5 human boffs, of course if you are not tactical.
and what about klingons ? whats the effect this has on pvp ? i haven't thought about it, because i thought the repair rate given by human boffs was proportional to the %crew of the ship, but even with 0 crew i had almost 150% crew repair in combat, thats very stupid and unfair for ship with lots of crew, and incredibly op for ships with less ammounts of crew, compensating their lack of crew and suposed lack of hull repair
how it should be :
for example if you have a ship with 1000 crew, you are getting a 100% extra repair rate
but if you lost 500 crew, the human boffs should only give 50% repair rate
and if you are out of crew, the human boffs shouldnt give any repair rate (making the ammount of crew on the ship to matter again, just the way its suposed to be, not .king overpowering escorts)
each human boff provides 20% hull repair rate and 20% subsystem repair ( subsystem repair reaching 100% plus inertial dampers, that's a 150% resistance to disables, countering a Lot science disables and phaser procs, of course. )
that is a total of 100% repair rate, and that should be if you are 100% on crew, the 100% repair rate given by human boffs should be 100% based on the % of live crew you have on your ship
because the way it is right now is pretty op, making escorts to tank a lot, making things unbalanced to klingons, i am a fed, and i rarely play on my klingon alt, but i imagine how klingons feel about this
making human boffs to be proportional to the % of crew should fix it, if a ship is out of crew, you wont have any bonus hull repair, NOT making escorts to have more than 100% repair rate with 0 crew, regenerating more hull than a karfi with all the crew, i mean, isnt that the point of escorts having less amount of crew ? to regenerate less hull ?
but i guess this is what all people will say : "get over it man, you are a noob, learn to play as a scientist, do your incredible photonick shockwave to disable my skills for 0.1 seconds while i use my attack pattern omega that ONLY gives me dmg, resistance, turn rate, and immunity to almost all the ways you have to kill me! my jhas is good the way it is, regenerating lots of hull, and boosting all the dmg i can with my tactical captain skills, allowing me to boost feedbackpulse and repulsors better than you, causing the nerf of all your skills !"
but i dont care, i seek balance, how can you live with human boffs beeing a klingon ? knowing that your karfi isn't getting as much hull repair as your fed enemy escort out of crew ?
Post edited by Unknown User on
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I think we have all had enough of 1000 crew cruisers and 2000 crew carriers that don't die... we don't need ships with 400% repair rates.
Really the human doffs needs to be smacked down hard... they shouldn't stack more then 1. Problem with them fixed. imo
Oh ya PS... Shockwave rocks... its your implementation that sucks. Its not the length of the disable.... its the fact that it is disabling. Its used to counter things like extend... it knocks channeled skills off... you mentioned you guys where playing with theta... get your brother to try to theta you and use shockwave see what happens. lol
and it doesnt rock, apo makes the clearing capability during 15 seconds, and it gives dmg, defense, resistance and turn rate as well, so i dont think the clearing capability of psw should be its only main purpouse
i can accept that human boffs increase hull repair, but not that much, and definitely not 100% without crew, making escorts to have as much as a carrier without human boffs, thats really bad for klingons, and really stupid because it is compensating a weak point of escorts, a lot, transphasic/plasma builds just dont work now, because it is an insane repair rate even without crew, its like a hazard emitters allways on, it might give some hull repair, but it shouldnt without crew
Having 1000 crew is actually disadvantage.
There are also some bugs I have documented during my experimenting (my steamrunner sits at 420% hull regen), but I wont bug report anything. Past experiences with "fixing bugs" changed my view point about bug reporting.
Simply, because cryptic won't remedy the whole situation, but like usual just blindly nerf everything.
Truth is, leadership boffs won't save you against SNB + SPIKE, the only way how to kill anything in STO pvp atm anyway.
The crew loss/disable mechanics work contrary to what quite a few people see in that tooltip. They see it as a lesser (which it states) amount - so the smaller amount. It doesn't work that way. It's actually the greater amount - the amount that will result in the least remaining crew. So something that reads as the lesser of 20% or 20 (where 20% might be 200) - it's going to take the 200 rather than the 20. Yeah, mind-boggling. Mix that in with crew regen - well, yeah - Theta/torp them - meh.
Thing is - some folks (personally I took it off my ships as well) feel that Theta is Evil, lol. So with a little bit of gear swapping and spending skill points in Subsystem Repair - well, it's not as difficult to offset that crew loss and thus run with those Human BOFFs regenerating 3%+ of hull per second. That's...just kind of insane.
Probably one of the reasons that Theta has started to show up more again, eh? Kind of like the increased use of Trans with the proliferation of Elite Fleet Shields, eh?
There should definitely be a cap on how many can stack - given what one can do to keep crew alive and the "opposition" to using Theta...or perhaps folks should just start spamming Theta, eh? Meh...
As for the Shocks - yeah, like Antonio said - they're great for interrupts. They follow the somewhat broken mechanic of a lack of resist before the effect that most Sci does - just a reduction of the effect after it happens.
Heck, they can also be fun for positioning - disorientating, etc. Somebody's trying to escape that warp poo or trying to outrun some mines - get in front of them and bounce those suckers back. Or heck, you see a buttload of mines following one of your guys and you don't have something else handy - shock 'em.
I suppose it's in the way I look at Sci. Bill Nye with his dirty bag o' tricks. It's not Bill Nye with a bag full of kaboom.
Yes, but if you blindly nerf leadership boffs, you will actually hurt cruisers most. My G-X is somwhat playable in PuGs with 500% hull regen and 20s RSP. Remove the leadership boffs and it's back where it was before they fixed them.
There is just 4 changes that needs to be done:
1) At 0 crew, you should not regen hull
2) More base crew > higher natural regen by default
3) fixing dmg to crew
4) fixing crew after theta (it wont regen until you die and respawn)
Crying for nerf leadership, just means you will remove the regen, but the underlying issues with crew remain.
virusdancer, the problem here is that, even if you hit him with theta and torpedos, those 100% extra repair rate stays there even if he is with 0 crew
It's one of those things, where if you didn't play STO - it might be kind of funny, eh?
Players report issue with Item X.
Players argue amongst themselves for a bit on how to fix Item X.
A common element arises, no matter what else they might disagree on, they agree on that - call it Fix A.
Cryptic implements Fix B that breaks Item Y and Item Z.
Players go WTF?
Seriously, if we didn't play the game - it would be like watching a sitcom or something on Thursday night.
that's the point im trying to make, human boffs aren't the only problem
But if you say A) you should also say
The last time I looked (admittedly it's been a couple of weeks or more), as I lost crew - the rate dropped. It was around that time that Renim was doing his torp testing with various folks for the crew loss issue.
Yes, the rate drops with your crew. However, when you are on 0 crew, you retain he extras. Borg 2 piece bonus, captain leadership, leadership boffs, SIF generators. Also, there is most likely math bug, as the whole bonus is added in combat, while it should be cut like the rest.
Something like
X/2+Y instead (X+Y) /2
That combination of how crew loss works and how crew regens...is painful.
Reminds me of the old discussions about BFM/EFF/KHG/Jem Shields...even before Leadership was fixed. Folks going ooooohhh...then somebody mentioning Theta and it being, oh yeah - never mind.
Why is noone complaining that Theta reduces your crew to 0, and you cannot get it back until you are destroyed ? A simple console, without counter that gimps any ship (except escort lol) for several minutes even after they were destroyed.
If you truly want to fix leadership, fix EVERYTHING, not just few numbers in a function.
So on a level 13 alt I'm working on - kind of - lol, not really.
2x SIF Mk XII (+5 Hull Repair each)
Techie (+10 Hull Repair)
9 Starship Hull Repair (+99 Hull Repair)
119 Starship Hull Repair
4x Human BOFFs (+20% Hull Regen each)
Out of combat hull regen: 283.8%
That's with 400 Crew.
Drops to 152.4% in combat.
Let me see about losing some crew now...
300-400 it did not drop.
<300 it actually did drop.
135% at 100.
But wait, it's bugged.
Cause going out of combat and back again, at 224 crew it was only ~94%.
Going out of combat again and having 400 crew only took me to 235.5% instead of the 283.8%...
62.8% at 129.
54.5% at 234.
This TRIBBLE is all over the place...lol...who knows what it actually is?
It's like I've posted about Defense and the Jem'Hadar Deflector... depending on if you just logged in, where you've zoned, if you've died, if you've gone into combat and come out, when you've gone into combat depending on all the rest...
...this is just messed up.
Seriously, just take a toon into SB24 after logging in (in space, Sol System) - don't go to the ground. Note the number - go into combat - note the number - watch crew loss - note the number - leave combat - note the number - look at it at full crew - go back into combat - look at the numbers now - die - look at the numbers - get attacked without going into combat (funny, eh?) and look at the numbers - die again - look at the numbers as crew regen and you enter combat again...
...wtf?
These are out of combat numbers...
First login to Sol System: 283.8%
Head to SB24: 283.8%
After leaving combat (returning to full crew): 235.5%
Returning to Sol after the SB24 (full crew): 221.3%
Those numbers...er...should be the same.
edit: Okay, so I looked Starship Hull Repair was still 119 as it was initially. Still, I took a SIF Mk III (+5) off and put it back on. Took me to 280.9%. Still not the 283.8%.
It was not until I set one of the BOFF stations to None and then put the BOFF back, that I got back to the 283.8%.
So just like Defense, the Perception Stuff, etc... the Hull Repair rate stuff gets screwed up depending on what you're doing and what you've done - it doesn't always recalculate everything correctly.
Have to wonder how many other things are broken out there like that. We enter and leave combat - we need to pull all our gear and BOFFs - then put them back again - we zone - we have to do that - we...yeah...
...I'm going to smoke.
edit2: Well, I checked weapons/consoles - and - it was consistent. But yeah, the hull regen thing just irks me on top of the Defense/Perception issues out there as well...meh.
I agree. With Saurians we had the efficiency equation as a safeguard. With Romulans, I believe they coded it so that a ship can only have one of each type, but I believe you can have as many types as you want. Perhaps it needs to be added is that a ship can have as many humans as the person wants but only benefits from 2 of them.
A bad potential fix I see is re-doing the equasion based upon someone using 5 of them. Then, for those of us who only use 2 of them anyways, they become pretty much useless again. For the klinks who used their T4 Marauding boff to get 1 human, they would become even more useless
Eng
104 Starship Hull Repair
2x Human BOFFs
Borg +5.1
Sol(login) - 171.4%
SB24(arrive) - 171.4%
SB24(combat) - 69.4%
SB24(post combat) - 171.4%
SB24(post death) - 159.3%
SB24(combat/post death) - 69.4%
SB24(post combat/post death) - 171.4%
Sol(post SB24) - 171.4%
Sci
99 Starship Hull Repair
1x Human BOFF
Sol(login) - 143..3%
SB24(arrive) - 143..3%
SB24(combat) - 43.8%
SB24(post combat) - 143..3%
SB24(post death) - 125.4%
SB24(combat/post death) - 25.9%
SB24(post combat/post death) - 143.3%
Sol (post SB24) - 143.3%
Tac
117 Starship Hull Repair
5x Human BOFFs
1x SIF Mk XI (+17.5)
Sol(login) - 311.8%
SB24(arrive) - 311.8%
SB24(combat) - 181.9%
SB24(post combat) - 311.8%
SB24(post death) - 217.6%
SB24(combat/post death) - 108.5%
SB24(post combat/post death) - 286.3%
Sol(post SB24) - 311.8%
Remove/Replace SIF - 299.2%
Then Remove/Replace Human - 311.8%
I was going to rerun it with my level 13 guy as well, but I noticed something while doing these (noticed, but did not note unfortunately). Even these numbers were not consistent. Sure, those base numbers - but the post death stuff...the combat stuff...that varied almost all the time (even at full crew). As if it were counting or not counting gear/BOFFs randomly. Though, there's likely some method to the madness. No, I was careful to watch for Vet bonus/Eng Fleet things (ran these multiple times - have to clear out my inventory and sell some goodies...lol).
But yeah, there's an issue there with regard to the Human BOFFs (and SIF Gens)...
Before the change, I had all Surians, and my hull repair out of combat was 168, 69 in combat with full crew. Now its 318 out and 176 in. My Breen ship went from having a slightly more efficient warp core, to running HE2 at all times.
When I DO run Elite STFs, my escort should NOT be able to tank a tac cube or gateway without any worry whatsoever.
Cruiser had to work very hard to dent an escort before the change. Now, a cruiser with any weapon combination whatsoever will never put a dent into anything with 5 human boffs, let alone an escort.
Humans went from worthless to absolutely insane. Is there nothing in between?
Human officers are working as intended, and I love them.
Nerf them and my Nerd Rage will by mighty!
103.5% hull repair with 4 human boffs
17.8% no boffs
103.5 - 17.8
0.857 * 46011
39431.427 / 60
657.19 hull repair per second
Well escorts in PvP deal 1500-3500 over the entire match on average (for a good player), for a good opponent that is more like 2000 so that is approx 1/4 of hull damage resisted.
I am no longer PvPing on my main until this bug is fixed then since I do not wish to replace my human boffs that I got before the bug occured.
Thing is no matter how you scale the hull repair it will end up unfair for a great deal of players (escort attacking vs crusier attacking, so will amplify the to much resist in game problem), the mechinic should be trashed entirely and the subsystem repair buffed a lot or something (because that is incredibly useful in PvP esp if you have no points in subsystem repair). Or it could be scaled to hull resists (so 1% hull damage resist per boff + 0.1% per 100 crew or something).
math continued:
657 / 46011
0.01427919410575731890200169524679 * 100
1.43% of hull is regerated from 4 human boffs
that would be per second and is in combat (all numbers)
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=8340431&postcount=3
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=569281
The first post linked above has test data and a formula for calculating the hull repair rate.
The hull repair rate depends on able crew, not alive crew. But that only affects the "normal" hull repair rate. The bonus you get from leadership is not affected by crew, nor is it cut by 1/6 in combat like the "normal" hull repair rate.
Alive crew doesn't regenerate during combat. I don't know if that's a bug or not. The crew repair rates reported by the UI don't seem to apply to able crew or alive crew. I think the crew recovery mechanics are probably not working correctly.
Out of Combat
5x Human BOFFs 311.8%
0 Human BOFFs 155.9%
In Combat
5x Human BOFFs 181.9%
0 Human BOFFs 26.0%
0 Crew (Theta - In Combat)
5x Human BOFFs 121.2%
0 Human BOFFs 6.5%
That was from Ker'rat. Took forever to find somebody to drop Theta...meh.
Yet, in SB24...at 101/700 Crew - the repair rate was 39%.
Disruptor Breach.
Need to find somebody with Disruptors to shoot me - see if the same thing happens there.
edit: Thanks to @nixtux for testing at Cracked. Appears it's just the NPC version that does it. The player one didn't.
edit2: Course one thing that stood out was how the recalculations are off - had to reset BOFFs to get it back to the base rate after each death.
and the most stupid part on this, is that if you are out of crew, you still have those 100% hull repair, which makes the opponent very op, considering that an escort should have low numbers of hull repair, they now have their lack of tanking compensated by this stupid issue
my transphasic torpedos cant do a S++t against an escort without hull heals, only the cluster is doing some damage, since even if the opponent is out of crew, he still has incredibly high numbers of hull repair and subsystem repair, that's another point, it makes disable skills almost useless, like if apo was't enough.
so theta now is useless, for the job you should rather use a ewp
Honestly, instead of whining like a kid who dropped his candy, you should try to get a better build for yourself.