Making cruisers like giant slower, tougher, and with more weapons, versions of BoPs is something I've been thinking about lately as well. The big difference from their current implementation would be to have a bunch of Universal Boff stations. How many and what ranks they should be would need to be worked out. Their console layouts and their specific stats would also serve to differentiate them.
That way they could still be the general purpose ship that they were portrayed as in the shows.
Unfortunately, I don't think that would sell better than the current cruiser implementation. Carriers and escorts are just more interesting to fly and Sci vessels offer a totally unique experience. So what would general purpose ships do in terms of players wanting them? Just how many die hard crusier fans could they hope to sell these general purpose ships to?
The kind of crowd that like to customize their ships, optimize builds, and mix-and-match for different play-styles. But yes, I would say that something is missing, at least when compared to a BOP. The latter has the unique advantage of a Battle Cloak, which allows it to pull off hit-and-runs. What does a cruiser have that really distinguishes it from other ships...?
That simply IS true. You ever seen a good escort pilot? Take a top tier escort pilot, put it in a bug/FTER/FAER with full mk XII purple gear, and then try and kill it. Don't even have it fire back, just try to shoot it down. THEN let it fire back.
Then take a top tier cruiser pilot, put it in a top tier cruiser with full mk XII purple gear, and then try and kill it. Then let it fight back.
And then tell me that. You will find that the escort survives easily everything you throw at it, and then turns around and kills you. You will find that the cruiser survives easily everything you throw at it... and then pokes your shields while you eat an ice cream sandwich watching Family Guy.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
the feds got licked by the doms because fed shields where ineffectual against dominion weapons.
the defiant may well have been more agile, its a pimple on the rear end of a galaxy in size.
It was and is more agile, as an escort is supposed to be.
The Feds got their butts kicked because they were swarmed with fast heavy hitting small attack ships.
It was first when they joined forces with Klingons and Romulans that they actually had some success, mainly because Klingons use small manouverable attack ships, Romulans not much, but they have them.
only this that works period
you read around the forums you will see there was a time when grav well grabbed you and damn well snared you properly.
unlike now.
Yeah, but we all know how they nerfed the sci's.
And you are surprised how grav well is not working as good as it used to?!
its simple running numbers through a calculator.
cannon escorts flat out dps beam boats
Yes they do, i've not been denying that either.
Since beams have, almost all the time been the weaker weapon it's not a surprise at all.
Even if the beam boat is an escort it will be out-dps'ed by a cannon boat.
But not by much.
But that is how the weapons are working, beams have sustainability over distance while cannons have low sustainbility and works best in close range combat.
you want a simple answer? remember red squad and their defiant class?
3 hits and boom.
sisco's defiant had plot armor, its ridiculous to base everything about the defiant off of the hero ship of ds9.
now theres your simple answer. go read up on what plot armour means.
I was talking about the Defiants speed, it's armor is a moot point when it comes to speed.
you are using the assertion to legitimise itself.
the trinity system is broken in this game to start with.
heck, the trinity system is usually always broken in computer games anyway. likely since its an archaic holdover from over a decade ago.
doesnt help that mixing the trinity system with tech breaks credulity.
and health does indeed mean survivability, go get a b'rel or aquarius destroyer to test that out.
I think you need to read up on crew size and what that does for your survivability.
Just last night, i got my butt kicked again by a Cruiser.
Everything went well in the begining had it down to about 50-60% in hull.
But after 10 minutes of fighting this cruiser, i had only one crew left.
You know what happens with passive repairs then, right?
No matter what escort you have, if you meet the properly right skilled cruiser captain, it will wear you down, no matter what boff heals you have.
In the end, you will have no one who makes the repairs on your ship, not even your boff abilites is as effective.
So in simple terms, health does not mean survivability.
the impulse modifier, is a game mechanic, the devs set it up the way it is to give escorts an advantage, with the sole purpose of giving them an advantage.
now that advantage is leading to an observable unchecked positive loop where even the devs are pushing for more escort superiority.
Yes it is a game mechanic, and a working one at that.
It gives the escorts the speed they had in the shows.
Well to that, that is the devs perogative to as the creators of the game and content on this game.
If you dont like it, too bad.
nope.
i just have a clue about balancing a game thanks to having been a gamer for 20 years.
i want all the classes to be equally effective before player setups. but for different reasons. an entirly achievable goal.
where small ships have a role to play as fast & agile and big ships as heavy hitters and a plethora of other tactics players could choose to employ, where it not for the rediculous system in place that grants one class clear superiority
not the current 'choose escort to win' system that has already manifested itself in sales figures showing escorts are the most popular and sell better, leading the devs to monetise the trend creating the vestas, and the im damned sure to be coming soon 'operations escorts'.
but then, thats the nature of an unchecked positive loop, they feed back upon themselves until the system they are in gets destroyed.
Well then, if you are so good at it, go and make your own game that works as you feel it should, since you've been a gamer for 20 years that shouldn't be problem for you at all.
The ships are equally effective.
I've said this before and i'll continue to do so untill the end of days.
Effective does not need to be firepower.
Effective does not need to be speed or manouverability.
There are alot of other things that a ship can do and still be effective.
Durability and taking aggro is good combination and that is something cruisers do well.
Sustained firerate is something they do well, even over distance.
They can sit their take all the aggro fire at the enemy in a sustained rate and doing damage while you have to wait untill your cooldown counters is down.
And under that time, you do not du much more damage than a cruiser.
And while you sit there waiting for your cooldowns, the cruiser make sure you can continue to fire you heavy burst damage when the cooldowns are out.
Sure they could make the beams more powerfull, no doubt about that.
But as the beams are set as they are, that would be a huge powerdrain on the weapons power.
Then cruiser would ned to take power from weapon battery's or aux to make it really usefull.
Or they will make a highpowered beam that will have a narrower firing arc, will that help the cruisers anything?
As i said, you want to make escorts to nothing more than what the sci ships is today.
Slow, easier to hit, not as much tanking ability as a cruiser.
They will also in total lose damage since they will not be able to keep the firing arc in line as often as they do now with their speed.
What you want is to make the escort to another ship then what an escort is today.
If i remember correctly there is a cruiser captain in the begining of this thread that actually challenges the escorts to a fight.
Perhaps if some of the people who wish to nerf the escort because of it being to powerfull should go and fight this captain.
Or perhaps just ask for a cruiser vs escort fight in the main chat on the game.
The escorts are heavy hitters.
That is because of power allocation.
Cruisers allocate their power to other systems than an escort does.
Even in the shows, the escorts are more firepower effective than the cruisers is.
I know that cryptic has many faults.
This however is not one of them.
It's better that they did something to the cruisers, more special abilities instead perhaps.
So they would feel more useful and more of a "win-ship" for those who dont spec for a cruiser.
And also bring back the old days sci ships that actually had usefull powers that worked.
That would in the long run make the game more balanced.
Nerfing something that is working as it should work will only create more ingame unbalance.
I can concede that in the shows the cruisers are a more all around work-horse
With big crews.
This should grant cruisers an extra boff slot.
Lt.com tactical on all t5 cruisers.
Ens. and Lt.com tactical stations on all fleet versions of cruisers.
Special beam and torpedo attacks, like all sci ships have subsystem targeting the cruisers should have special abilites too, to make them like the allround work-horse they are in the shows.
This will however not make them to dps kings.
But they will fill their role more as they are intended, and for many, to be more fun to play again, and perhaps will learn how to skill when they are once again fun to play.
they didnt hit so heavy after the feds adapted to the doms weapons, one episods specfically had wayune mention the feds adaption in an almost shocked manner.
outside that, it was a sheer numbers game of being stomped on 10 to 1.
Yes they adapted to the Breen special weapon wich Wey thought was impossible.
im pointing out grav well to highlight how stupid the balance situation is with the current model, and that your crying about your escort is less about balance and more about keeping your edge. no doubt you would have been cheering ecstatically for the sci nerfing.
You are pointing out something that most people already know, that sci abilities are nerfed.
Actually, NO.
I do not cheer for any ship being nerfed, i cheer for the sci ships gettting their power back, DO NOT put words on the table pretending they are mine when they are not.
Which also means you did not read my post fully.
beams dont have the initial dps for the ranged dps to count for a damn, and givs nowhere near the spike damage necessary to fold a player target. especially with the set heal procs that completly negate the difference between passive crew heal and said procs.
then there is thaqt godawfully broken 'leadership' or 'effeciency' trait that lets a 100 crew ship heal faster than an 800 crew ship if you stack it.
And if your crew dies off faster than it can heal, your 100 crew count for damn nothing.
And 100 crew dies off alot faster than 800 crew does.
Nor does leadership or effience trait affect anything since there are no crew to perform the tasks.
Cruisers dont only need to use beam weapons to be effecient to take down an escort.
and yea, i will say it flatly.
if you are in en ascort,
and yous opponant is in a cruiser
and you have comparable gear
and comparably competant builds
the only reason the escort will lose, is pilot error.
Not true at all.
I've won against more cruisers than i've lost against.
Alot more.
And then we still come back to skilling, if you have bad skilling, and this applies for escorts too, you have a "fail ship" doesn't matter which ship you have.
That is a fact.
if the ships where equally effective, there wouldnt be the disproportionate rash of escorts, they are easy-mode, plain and simple.
sitting and being a punchbag, is not being effective, its called getting beat on.
You only count on firepower as being effective, and that seems to be the only thing that matters to you, firepower.
If it's too much, nerf it, if its too little the others have a claim om superiority.
And that you consider as being unbalanced when there are other things that tip the balance for the other ships, it's just not firepower.
Get a grip on what different abilities does for different careers and you might get a better understanding on this subject.
everything after your blatant lie about escorts having more firepower than cruisers in the show, is not just wrong, it completely disregards canon as to why the feds resurrected the pulse phaser again, and shows how clueless you are about power creep.
This only shows how unfamiliar you are with powersystems and how they attribute to eachother.
Pulse phaser cannon.
It's more powerfull than beam banks but you still need to get in close to get a good and solid powerfull strike on the target.
Where it is more usefull on a small agile ship like the Defiant that can get in quick and hit the target.
The Defiant took weapon power directly from the warp core which also made the weapons a bit more powerfull.
No cruiser had that possibility, so, when it comes to firepower, the Defiant was superior to cruisers.
And cruisers had superiority in survivability.
special powers for cruisers? rediculous, its 'special powers' for escorts in the form of agility be magic that is causing this rubbish in the first place.
Because they are WAY more agile in the shows than a cruiser is.
If i remember correctly i think it was O'Brien that said the Defiant could run loops around the Enterprise when the enterprise where doing full impulse.
There is no magic involved, that's just how they were designed in the show.
Now you prove again that you do not read my posts.
I was saying that i would not mind if the added special powers to the cruisers, like sci ships have subsystem targeting, the cruisers could get some special powers too.
go get yourself a b'rel or aquarius to learn the difference 10k of hull makes, then, go play on tv tropes until you understand what the defiant being hero ship and having 'plot armor' actually means.
Whatever for?
I already know what the hull does and why.
like i said earlier in the thread. 'i win'.
not just because declaring 'i win' makes it so, but because either i am right, and the game gets fixed at a fundamental level thats causing imbalance, making the game fun for all and providing much more selection.
or, i win, because criptic will bring out 'operations escorts' to suit demand for an effective ship with engineering powers.
You haven't won anything yet.
You haven't even proved anything to be wrong yet with the escorts.
And now i really start wondering how you are thinking.
You want an operations escort?
Something that will make them even more difficult to kill than they already are?
And i guess that... You want the impulse mod to be exactly as they are set on cruisers also?
YaY you win a small cruiser for your trouble!
Because they are WAY more agile in the shows than a cruiser is.
If i remember correctly i think it was O'Brien that said the Defiant could run loops around the Enterprise when the enterprise where doing full impulse.
There is no magic involved, that's just how they were designed in the show.
It wasn't even the Defiant, it was the Janolan, and the statement came from Geordi. An old transport ship more than a century out of date was described as being able to fly circles around the Enterprise. Extrapolate from there as to what a purpose-built warship was capable of.
Also, don't even bother trying to reason with this guy. If it challenges his preconceptions, it gets ignored and he loops right back to "I win".
It wasn't even the Defiant, it was the Janolan, and the statement came from Geordi. An old transport ship more than a century out of date was described as being able to fly circles around the Enterprise. Extrapolate from there as to what a purpose-built warship was capable of.
Also, don't even bother trying to reason with this guy. If it challenges his preconceptions, it gets ignored and he loops right back to "I win".
Yeah i know that episode, one of my favs actually :-)
But i actually think it was O'Brien that made a comment like that about the Defiant also, was some time since i watched it now so i guess i have refresh my memory some :-D
But, it's sooo fun to be in discussions like these!
Not that they matter in any way, since the devs wont change the escorts nor the cruisers.
That simply IS true. You ever seen a good escort pilot? Take a top tier escort pilot, put it in a bug/FTER/FAER with full mk XII purple gear, and then try and kill it. Don't even have it fire back, just try to shoot it down. THEN let it fire back.
Then take a top tier cruiser pilot, put it in a top tier cruiser with full mk XII purple gear, and then try and kill it. Then let it fight back.
And then tell me that. You will find that the escort survives easily everything you throw at it, and then turns around and kills you. You will find that the cruiser survives easily everything you throw at it... and then pokes your shields while you eat an ice cream sandwich watching Family Guy.
No that's just poor player skill.
Take a tractor beam and lock the escort in place, if they cant turn they cant fire right ? I really am baffled why people are so bad at this game that they cant grasp basic situational and tactical awareness
It makes a refreshing change to read a post from someone who isn't afraid to be an individual who doesn't have their own hell bent agenda.
If only more people like you would post their view then this game would constructively improve and advance rather than be destructively torn apart by the nasty trolling and slander bandwagon that this forum harbours.
Cruisers do not need Uslots to be unique or give them back a missing "character" of purpose feel. Thats just lazy thinking on how to fix thier gameplay and actually fixes nothing, especially so if one is comparing the Cruiser to a BoP and claiming its an example of how poorly designed cruisers are ingame.
The two vessels are entirely different with very different purposes ingame.
I wonder if season May holds true KDf substance or just a tutorial and a few meager shinnies?
Would be sad to be letdown again and I hope the May thing makes us KDF eat crow but I dont smell no bird cooking.
One can always hope!
The Kdf is a bit lacking in content.
It makes a refreshing change to read a post from someone who isn't afraid to be an individual who doesn't have their own hell bent agenda.
If only more people like you would post their view then this game would constructively improve and advance rather than be destructively torn apart by the nasty trolling and slander bandwagon that this forum harbours.
Thanks for restoring my faith in this community !
You are welcome!
It's a bit refreshing though to get some apreciation, not often that happens here :-)
Cruisers do not need Uslots to be unique or give them back a missing "character" of purpose feel. Thats just lazy thinking on how to fix thier gameplay and actually fixes nothing, especially so if one is comparing the Cruiser to a BoP and claiming its an example of how poorly designed cruisers are ingame.
The two vessels are entirely different with very different purposes ingame.
Now who said anything about comparing cruisers to birds of prey?
I was comparing them to other vessels on the fed side, but not birds of prey. I just held that up as an example of what the cruiser is like in canon, and the kind of role that it could better fulfill on the fed side rather than the current support/tank that everyone expects of it.
I think part of the problem is also that there's too much emphasis for movement to enhance defense, how many times did we actually see the enterprise D move while fighting? Hardly any at all. The whole notion that the ship has to be moving for it's defenses to kick in is just weird. I think they need to give cruisers a 12% bonus to defense to offset the movement defense buff (whatever it is but I believe that the 12% would be good) and no I don't fly one. I'm just thinking in terms of how cruisers were in the shows.
Now who said anything about comparing cruisers to birds of prey?
I was comparing them to other vessels on the fed side, but not birds of prey. I just held that up as an example of what the cruiser is like in canon, and the kind of role that it could better fulfill on the fed side rather than the current support/tank that everyone expects of it.
Did you not type on page 47, " if they made cruisers more canon they would be like big birds of prey with no cloak" ?
Possibly not verbatim but that a comparison to a BoP while discussing the idea of Uslots on cruisers to give them more canon usage similiar what was seen in the IP.
Especially since that canon purpose changed so often in depending on the episode playing at the time.
Besides, who would want to play a Uslotted cruiser with the weak hull and shields that having such slots would dictate is needed for balance.
Sure the BoP is greatly multi-taskable but it pays for that ability in survival and it is not a master of anything.
It can be an excellent escort but actual escorts will still outdamage it and are more survivable.
It can make a great healboat but not as well as a cruiser, which again is more survivable.
A BoP can even make a good sciship but again it will not excell at the role or be as survivable.
Did you not type on page 47, " if they made cruisers more canon they would be like big birds of prey with no cloak" ?
Possibly not verbatim but that a comparison to a BoP while discussing the idea of Uslots on cruisers to give them more canon usage similiar what was seen in the IP.
That was MY comment andclearly the intent is not tomake cruisers giant BoPs, but rather to borrow their design concept of a generalist ship. But where BoPs are made for hit and runs (in theory at least) cruisers could be more about staying power. Its merely an idea on how to make cruisers interesting without simply copy/pasting KDF battlecruiser stats on them. I don;t think anyone would argue that KDF battlecruisers are way, WAY better suited to the current STO metagame?
Did you not type on page 47, " if they made cruisers more canon they would be like big birds of prey with no cloak" ?
Possibly not verbatim but that a comparison to a BoP while discussing the idea of Uslots on cruisers to give them more canon usage similiar what was seen in the IP.
Especially since that canon purpose changed so often in depending on the episode playing at the time.
Besides, who would want to play a Uslotted cruiser with the weak hull and shields that having such slots would dictate is needed for balance.
Sure the BoP is greatly multi-taskable but it pays for that ability in survival and it is not a master of anything.
It can be an excellent escort but actual escorts will still outdamage it and are more survivable.
It can make a great healboat but not as well as a cruiser, which again is more survivable.
A BoP can even make a good sciship but again it will not excell at the role or be as survivable.
It was a comparison made to highlight the disparity between cruiser performance and how they appear in canon. All things considered, I think cruisers, or at least a portion of them, would be better suited for such a role. It would hardly be imbalanced to have some degree of versatility on a tough hull. Other games have tanks that work as damage dealers, healers or crowd control. If cruisers are to be considered as tanks, then they should take on more characteristics that are associated with tanks, and not only support roles that they do not particularly excel at.
Take a tractor beam and lock the escort in place, if they cant turn they cant fire right ? I really am baffled why people are so bad at this game that they cant grasp basic situational and tactical awareness
Cuz you know... Attack Pattern Omega doesn't make you immune to holds/snares. And nobody ever uses it anyways. Because it's so bad.
-.-
I really am baffled as to why people are so bad at this game that they can't grasp basic situational and tactical knowledge on what is commonly used by other players and why.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
APO, PH, Evasive Manuevers, Deuturium burn don't make you immune to holds permanently. Use your abilities strategically while those are on cooldown and you'll have no problems holding that Escort.
Except if you cycle them. An escort can have two copies of APO that can be cycled with only a small hole in their defenses. And during that time, you can hit a PH. 15 second duration x2 (APO, 60 second CD), 30 second duration for PH (45 second CD), and you have your full 1 minute of coverage before APO is back up. And then your APO will fill what is left of the CD on PH. So you can have immunity to snares and holds permanently. The only way to get an escort to stop moving is EWP, which they just have to hit HE and they walk away laughing.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Except if you cycle them. An escort can have two copies of APO that can be cycled with only a small hole in their defenses. And during that time, you can hit a PH. 15 second duration x2 (APO, 60 second CD), 30 second duration for PH (45 second CD), and you have your full 1 minute of coverage before APO is back up. And then your APO will fill what is left of the CD on PH. So you can have immunity to snares and holds permanently. The only way to get an escort to stop moving is EWP, which they just have to hit HE and they walk away laughing.
There are other usefull tools you can use to stop an escort.
Theta radiation vents is one of them, warp plasma, grav pulse gen that combined with a tractor, borg set tractor beam is quite good.
Theta kills the crew in a few secs. (you have just taken away the healing)
Grav pulse slows the escort down and debuffs it quite good with -66% speed and -80% turn rate and some chance at taking down the impulse engines for 15 secs.
Using these things, correctly, the escort has a lesser chance of taking you out, and will in the end lose the fight because it will not be able to heal as fast as you lash out damage.
Edit:
And ofcourse, transphasics! Forgot about them :-)
Luckly, the devs have given us a lot of pseudo tools that are supposed to help against their beloved and almost unstoppable escorts. :P
Instead, of releasing toys like that, they should have balanced the game in a reasonable way, and make all ships equal strong, just supporting different playstyles. But i am afraid this would be too much of a demand, since MMO players and the devs themselves obviously can't imagine anything else besides the typical MMO mechanic.
Of course it is much more easy and profitable, to release a new set of Lockboxes now and then with a console previously bound to the opposite faction to "balance" the game a bit.:rolleyes:
"...'With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured...the first thought forbidden...the first freedom denied--chains us all irrevocably.' ... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged. I fear that today--"
- (TNG) Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie
There are other usefull tools you can use to stop an escort.
Theta radiation vents is one of them, warp plasma, grav pulse gen that combined with a tractor, borg set tractor beam is quite good.
Theta kills the crew in a few secs. (you have just taken away the healing)
Grav pulse slows the escort down and debuffs it quite good with -66% speed and -80% turn rate and some chance at taking down the impulse engines for 15 secs.
Using these things, correctly, the escort has a lesser chance of taking you out, and will in the end lose the fight because it will not be able to heal as fast as you lash out damage.
Edit:
And ofcourse, transphasics! Forgot about them :-)
AP-Omega ignores EWP and Theta Vents movement debuffs if I remember correctly, and you have to be on top of an over-anxious escort player for dropped hazards to have any chance of trapping escorts due to their superior mobility. Also, if the Escort player slots 3 Evasive Maneuvers DOFFS, then he/she can break tractors every 30 seconds.
Target Subsystem Engines works fairly well, though Adapted MACO or KHG engines can counter this tactic without interrupting the ship's tac-team rotation.
There are other usefull tools you can use to stop an escort.
Theta radiation vents is one of them, warp plasma, grav pulse gen that combined with a tractor, borg set tractor beam is quite good.
The only thing there I thing AP:O doesn't cover is grav pulse gen but then again "immunity to all movement debuffs" (important bit couldn' be any clearer)
Using these things, correctly, the escort has a lesser chance of taking you out, and will in the end lose the fight because it will not be able to heal as fast as you lash out damage.
See the paragraph above, also an escort wont recieve beam array damage due to EPtS1 being so much better than EPtW1+125+ power
Except if you cycle them. An escort can have two copies of APO that can be cycled with only a small hole in their defenses. And during that time, you can hit a PH. 15 second duration x2 (APO, 60 second CD), 30 second duration for PH (45 second CD), and you have your full 1 minute of coverage before APO is back up. And then your APO will fill what is left of the CD on PH. So you can have immunity to snares and holds permanently. The only way to get an escort to stop moving is EWP, which they just have to hit HE and they walk away laughing.
Its why I advocate the removal of the TB hold protection of ApO for something different.
Let it keep the bonus defenses and protection to EWP/VT since it is an Attack pattern of movement meant help one to move into position to attack.
Now though it could interupted by a reasonable weakness but one that is countered by a common enough power.
Its why I advocate the removal of the TB hold protection of ApO for something different.
Let it keep the bonus defenses and protection to EWP/VT since it is an Attack pattern of movement meant help one to move into position to attack.
Personally I don't think it should make you immune to anything but I think a resistance to holds would be a good idea
There are other usefull tools you can use to stop an escort.
Theta radiation vents is one of them, warp plasma, grav pulse gen that combined with a tractor, borg set tractor beam is quite good.
Vent theta does nothing. You can still use HE with no ill effects if your crew is dead. Warp plasma, as I stated earlier you hit HE and you're fine. Grav pulse requires that an escort be in front of you (something that never happens to most cruisers), tractor beams are negated by APO and PH (yes, even the very powerful borg one).
Theta kills the crew in a few secs. (you have just taken away the healing) Except that it doesn't...
Grav pulse slows the escort down and debuffs it quite good with -66% speed and -80% turn rate and some chance at taking down the impulse engines for 15 secs.
Using these things, correctly, the escort has a lesser chance of taking you out, and will in the end lose the fight because it will not be able to heal as fast as you lash out damage.
Edit:
And ofcourse, transphasics! Forgot about them :-)
Unfortunately the post you responded to with this still negates this argument. APO and PH combined are just too powerful at stopping snares. And as for any other things that ensnare, HE either removes them or ignores them. And transphasics? What makes you think an escort will care about a transphasic burst? Monotanium combined with BFI/Aux2SIF/HE. Unfortunately, the escort still wins the encounter based on what you list as counters.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
AP-Omega ignores EWP and Theta Vents movement debuffs if I remember correctly, and you have to be on top of an over-anxious escort player for dropped hazards to have any chance of trapping escorts due to their superior mobility. Also, if the Escort player slots 3 Evasive Maneuvers DOFFS, then he/she can break tractors every 30 seconds.
Target Subsystem Engines works fairly well, though Adapted MACO or KHG engines can counter this tactic without interrupting the ship's tac-team rotation.
Yes it can, if you dont have it on cooldown.
If you have it on cooldown you are in a bit more trouble, a smart cruiser captain will know when to activate these things, and he/she does not need to hold you for an eternity.
The only thing there I thing AP:O doesn't cover is grav pulse gen but then again "immunity to all movement debuffs" (important bit couldn' be any clearer)
I didn't give those suggestions as a way of stopping an escort.
See the paragraph above, also an escort wont recieve beam array damage due to EPtS1 being so much better than EPtW1+125+ power
Perhaps..
But only for a little time will that work, if a cruiser captain play this right, you wont have any crew left to make repairs and even repair abilities is weaker when your crew is dead.
:-)
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The kind of crowd that like to customize their ships, optimize builds, and mix-and-match for different play-styles. But yes, I would say that something is missing, at least when compared to a BOP. The latter has the unique advantage of a Battle Cloak, which allows it to pull off hit-and-runs. What does a cruiser have that really distinguishes it from other ships...?
Perhaps a Universal Console slot?
That simply IS true. You ever seen a good escort pilot? Take a top tier escort pilot, put it in a bug/FTER/FAER with full mk XII purple gear, and then try and kill it. Don't even have it fire back, just try to shoot it down. THEN let it fire back.
Then take a top tier cruiser pilot, put it in a top tier cruiser with full mk XII purple gear, and then try and kill it. Then let it fight back.
And then tell me that. You will find that the escort survives easily everything you throw at it, and then turns around and kills you. You will find that the cruiser survives easily everything you throw at it... and then pokes your shields while you eat an ice cream sandwich watching Family Guy.
The Feds got their butts kicked because they were swarmed with fast heavy hitting small attack ships.
It was first when they joined forces with Klingons and Romulans that they actually had some success, mainly because Klingons use small manouverable attack ships, Romulans not much, but they have them.
Yeah, but we all know how they nerfed the sci's.
And you are surprised how grav well is not working as good as it used to?!
Yes they do, i've not been denying that either.
Since beams have, almost all the time been the weaker weapon it's not a surprise at all.
Even if the beam boat is an escort it will be out-dps'ed by a cannon boat.
But not by much.
But that is how the weapons are working, beams have sustainability over distance while cannons have low sustainbility and works best in close range combat.
I was talking about the Defiants speed, it's armor is a moot point when it comes to speed.
I think you need to read up on crew size and what that does for your survivability.
Just last night, i got my butt kicked again by a Cruiser.
Everything went well in the begining had it down to about 50-60% in hull.
But after 10 minutes of fighting this cruiser, i had only one crew left.
You know what happens with passive repairs then, right?
No matter what escort you have, if you meet the properly right skilled cruiser captain, it will wear you down, no matter what boff heals you have.
In the end, you will have no one who makes the repairs on your ship, not even your boff abilites is as effective.
So in simple terms, health does not mean survivability.
Yes it is a game mechanic, and a working one at that.
It gives the escorts the speed they had in the shows.
Well to that, that is the devs perogative to as the creators of the game and content on this game.
If you dont like it, too bad.
Well then, if you are so good at it, go and make your own game that works as you feel it should, since you've been a gamer for 20 years that shouldn't be problem for you at all.
The ships are equally effective.
I've said this before and i'll continue to do so untill the end of days.
Effective does not need to be firepower.
Effective does not need to be speed or manouverability.
There are alot of other things that a ship can do and still be effective.
Durability and taking aggro is good combination and that is something cruisers do well.
Sustained firerate is something they do well, even over distance.
They can sit their take all the aggro fire at the enemy in a sustained rate and doing damage while you have to wait untill your cooldown counters is down.
And under that time, you do not du much more damage than a cruiser.
And while you sit there waiting for your cooldowns, the cruiser make sure you can continue to fire you heavy burst damage when the cooldowns are out.
Sure they could make the beams more powerfull, no doubt about that.
But as the beams are set as they are, that would be a huge powerdrain on the weapons power.
Then cruiser would ned to take power from weapon battery's or aux to make it really usefull.
Or they will make a highpowered beam that will have a narrower firing arc, will that help the cruisers anything?
As i said, you want to make escorts to nothing more than what the sci ships is today.
Slow, easier to hit, not as much tanking ability as a cruiser.
They will also in total lose damage since they will not be able to keep the firing arc in line as often as they do now with their speed.
What you want is to make the escort to another ship then what an escort is today.
If i remember correctly there is a cruiser captain in the begining of this thread that actually challenges the escorts to a fight.
Perhaps if some of the people who wish to nerf the escort because of it being to powerfull should go and fight this captain.
Or perhaps just ask for a cruiser vs escort fight in the main chat on the game.
The escorts are heavy hitters.
That is because of power allocation.
Cruisers allocate their power to other systems than an escort does.
Even in the shows, the escorts are more firepower effective than the cruisers is.
I know that cryptic has many faults.
This however is not one of them.
It's better that they did something to the cruisers, more special abilities instead perhaps.
So they would feel more useful and more of a "win-ship" for those who dont spec for a cruiser.
And also bring back the old days sci ships that actually had usefull powers that worked.
That would in the long run make the game more balanced.
Nerfing something that is working as it should work will only create more ingame unbalance.
I can concede that in the shows the cruisers are a more all around work-horse
With big crews.
This should grant cruisers an extra boff slot.
Lt.com tactical on all t5 cruisers.
Ens. and Lt.com tactical stations on all fleet versions of cruisers.
Special beam and torpedo attacks, like all sci ships have subsystem targeting the cruisers should have special abilites too, to make them like the allround work-horse they are in the shows.
This will however not make them to dps kings.
But they will fill their role more as they are intended, and for many, to be more fun to play again, and perhaps will learn how to skill when they are once again fun to play.
You are pointing out something that most people already know, that sci abilities are nerfed.
Actually, NO.
I do not cheer for any ship being nerfed, i cheer for the sci ships gettting their power back, DO NOT put words on the table pretending they are mine when they are not.
Which also means you did not read my post fully.
And if your crew dies off faster than it can heal, your 100 crew count for damn nothing.
And 100 crew dies off alot faster than 800 crew does.
Nor does leadership or effience trait affect anything since there are no crew to perform the tasks.
Cruisers dont only need to use beam weapons to be effecient to take down an escort.
Not true at all.
I've won against more cruisers than i've lost against.
Alot more.
And then we still come back to skilling, if you have bad skilling, and this applies for escorts too, you have a "fail ship" doesn't matter which ship you have.
That is a fact.
You only count on firepower as being effective, and that seems to be the only thing that matters to you, firepower.
If it's too much, nerf it, if its too little the others have a claim om superiority.
And that you consider as being unbalanced when there are other things that tip the balance for the other ships, it's just not firepower.
Get a grip on what different abilities does for different careers and you might get a better understanding on this subject.
This only shows how unfamiliar you are with powersystems and how they attribute to eachother.
Pulse phaser cannon.
It's more powerfull than beam banks but you still need to get in close to get a good and solid powerfull strike on the target.
Where it is more usefull on a small agile ship like the Defiant that can get in quick and hit the target.
The Defiant took weapon power directly from the warp core which also made the weapons a bit more powerfull.
No cruiser had that possibility, so, when it comes to firepower, the Defiant was superior to cruisers.
And cruisers had superiority in survivability.
Because they are WAY more agile in the shows than a cruiser is.
If i remember correctly i think it was O'Brien that said the Defiant could run loops around the Enterprise when the enterprise where doing full impulse.
There is no magic involved, that's just how they were designed in the show.
Now you prove again that you do not read my posts.
I was saying that i would not mind if the added special powers to the cruisers, like sci ships have subsystem targeting, the cruisers could get some special powers too.
Whatever for?
I already know what the hull does and why.
You haven't won anything yet.
You haven't even proved anything to be wrong yet with the escorts.
And now i really start wondering how you are thinking.
You want an operations escort?
Something that will make them even more difficult to kill than they already are?
And i guess that... You want the impulse mod to be exactly as they are set on cruisers also?
YaY you win a small cruiser for your trouble!
:-D
It wasn't even the Defiant, it was the Janolan, and the statement came from Geordi. An old transport ship more than a century out of date was described as being able to fly circles around the Enterprise. Extrapolate from there as to what a purpose-built warship was capable of.
Also, don't even bother trying to reason with this guy. If it challenges his preconceptions, it gets ignored and he loops right back to "I win".
Yeah i know that episode, one of my favs actually :-)
But i actually think it was O'Brien that made a comment like that about the Defiant also, was some time since i watched it now so i guess i have refresh my memory some :-D
But, it's sooo fun to be in discussions like these!
Not that they matter in any way, since the devs wont change the escorts nor the cruisers.
No that's just poor player skill.
Take a tractor beam and lock the escort in place, if they cant turn they cant fire right ? I really am baffled why people are so bad at this game that they cant grasp basic situational and tactical awareness
Dear Sir/Madam
It makes a refreshing change to read a post from someone who isn't afraid to be an individual who doesn't have their own hell bent agenda.
If only more people like you would post their view then this game would constructively improve and advance rather than be destructively torn apart by the nasty trolling and slander bandwagon that this forum harbours.
Thanks for restoring my faith in this community !
The two vessels are entirely different with very different purposes ingame.
R.I.P
The Kdf is a bit lacking in content.
You are welcome!
It's a bit refreshing though to get some apreciation, not often that happens here :-)
Now who said anything about comparing cruisers to birds of prey?
I was comparing them to other vessels on the fed side, but not birds of prey. I just held that up as an example of what the cruiser is like in canon, and the kind of role that it could better fulfill on the fed side rather than the current support/tank that everyone expects of it.
Did you not type on page 47, " if they made cruisers more canon they would be like big birds of prey with no cloak" ?
Possibly not verbatim but that a comparison to a BoP while discussing the idea of Uslots on cruisers to give them more canon usage similiar what was seen in the IP.
Especially since that canon purpose changed so often in depending on the episode playing at the time.
Besides, who would want to play a Uslotted cruiser with the weak hull and shields that having such slots would dictate is needed for balance.
Sure the BoP is greatly multi-taskable but it pays for that ability in survival and it is not a master of anything.
It can be an excellent escort but actual escorts will still outdamage it and are more survivable.
It can make a great healboat but not as well as a cruiser, which again is more survivable.
A BoP can even make a good sciship but again it will not excell at the role or be as survivable.
R.I.P
That was MY comment andclearly the intent is not tomake cruisers giant BoPs, but rather to borrow their design concept of a generalist ship. But where BoPs are made for hit and runs (in theory at least) cruisers could be more about staying power. Its merely an idea on how to make cruisers interesting without simply copy/pasting KDF battlecruiser stats on them. I don;t think anyone would argue that KDF battlecruisers are way, WAY better suited to the current STO metagame?
It was a comparison made to highlight the disparity between cruiser performance and how they appear in canon. All things considered, I think cruisers, or at least a portion of them, would be better suited for such a role. It would hardly be imbalanced to have some degree of versatility on a tough hull. Other games have tanks that work as damage dealers, healers or crowd control. If cruisers are to be considered as tanks, then they should take on more characteristics that are associated with tanks, and not only support roles that they do not particularly excel at.
Cuz you know... Attack Pattern Omega doesn't make you immune to holds/snares. And nobody ever uses it anyways. Because it's so bad.
-.-
I really am baffled as to why people are so bad at this game that they can't grasp basic situational and tactical knowledge on what is commonly used by other players and why.
Except if you cycle them. An escort can have two copies of APO that can be cycled with only a small hole in their defenses. And during that time, you can hit a PH. 15 second duration x2 (APO, 60 second CD), 30 second duration for PH (45 second CD), and you have your full 1 minute of coverage before APO is back up. And then your APO will fill what is left of the CD on PH. So you can have immunity to snares and holds permanently. The only way to get an escort to stop moving is EWP, which they just have to hit HE and they walk away laughing.
There are other usefull tools you can use to stop an escort.
Theta radiation vents is one of them, warp plasma, grav pulse gen that combined with a tractor, borg set tractor beam is quite good.
Theta kills the crew in a few secs. (you have just taken away the healing)
Grav pulse slows the escort down and debuffs it quite good with -66% speed and -80% turn rate and some chance at taking down the impulse engines for 15 secs.
Using these things, correctly, the escort has a lesser chance of taking you out, and will in the end lose the fight because it will not be able to heal as fast as you lash out damage.
Edit:
And ofcourse, transphasics! Forgot about them :-)
Instead, of releasing toys like that, they should have balanced the game in a reasonable way, and make all ships equal strong, just supporting different playstyles. But i am afraid this would be too much of a demand, since MMO players and the devs themselves obviously can't imagine anything else besides the typical MMO mechanic.
Of course it is much more easy and profitable, to release a new set of Lockboxes now and then with a console previously bound to the opposite faction to "balance" the game a bit.:rolleyes:
AP-Omega ignores EWP and Theta Vents movement debuffs if I remember correctly, and you have to be on top of an over-anxious escort player for dropped hazards to have any chance of trapping escorts due to their superior mobility. Also, if the Escort player slots 3 Evasive Maneuvers DOFFS, then he/she can break tractors every 30 seconds.
Target Subsystem Engines works fairly well, though Adapted MACO or KHG engines can counter this tactic without interrupting the ship's tac-team rotation.
The only thing there I thing AP:O doesn't cover is grav pulse gen but then again "immunity to all movement debuffs" (important bit couldn' be any clearer)
See the paragraph above, also an escort wont recieve beam array damage due to EPtS1 being so much better than EPtW1+125+ power
Its why I advocate the removal of the TB hold protection of ApO for something different.
Let it keep the bonus defenses and protection to EWP/VT since it is an Attack pattern of movement meant help one to move into position to attack.
Now though it could interupted by a reasonable weakness but one that is countered by a common enough power.
R.I.P
Personally I don't think it should make you immune to anything but I think a resistance to holds would be a good idea
Vent theta does nothing. You can still use HE with no ill effects if your crew is dead. Warp plasma, as I stated earlier you hit HE and you're fine. Grav pulse requires that an escort be in front of you (something that never happens to most cruisers), tractor beams are negated by APO and PH (yes, even the very powerful borg one).
Unfortunately the post you responded to with this still negates this argument. APO and PH combined are just too powerful at stopping snares. And as for any other things that ensnare, HE either removes them or ignores them. And transphasics? What makes you think an escort will care about a transphasic burst? Monotanium combined with BFI/Aux2SIF/HE. Unfortunately, the escort still wins the encounter based on what you list as counters.
Yes it can, if you dont have it on cooldown.
If you have it on cooldown you are in a bit more trouble, a smart cruiser captain will know when to activate these things, and he/she does not need to hold you for an eternity.
Perhaps..
But only for a little time will that work, if a cruiser captain play this right, you wont have any crew left to make repairs and even repair abilities is weaker when your crew is dead.
:-)