Of late I've been hearing more and more people whine, whinge and cry "you paid to win." Some of this has been directed at me, some of it has not.
To the people that use this lame catch-cry, grow up. Really. Just grow up.
Firstly, yes, some stuff in this game can be bought. If I choose to buy it with the money that I've worked hard for then that's NO business of yours. Do you go to the really nice houses in your town, throw yourself up against the living room window and cry out, "You paid to live nicely!!" Do you walk up to the owners of nice cars and cry out, "You paid to drive faster than me!!" Do you walk up to people in first class on a plane and cry out, "You paid to travel in more comfort than me!!" No? Then why do it here?
Secondly, this game gives you the avenue to obtain EVERYTHING that you accuse the pay to win people of having WITH NO REAL MONETARY COST TO YOURSELF. Something from the Zen store? You can grind dilithium, convert it to zen and voila. Something from the lobi store? You can grind dilithium to get zen to buy keys or you can grind ECs and buy keys from the exchange. Me? I like grinding EC and buying contraband. Easy dilithium supplement to my regular gameplay.
So, next time you feel the need to call out pay to win (usually when you lose PvP) stop and ask yourself the following:
* Am I wanting to call out P2W because my feelings are hurt at losing?
* Am I not prepared to spend time using the methods that have been given to me to obtain these things for free?
* Do I think accusing the of being P2W will make me feel better?
If you answered yes to any of the above, try and stop yourself. Be mature. Show sportsmanship. Don't sink to the childish level of calling out some stupid little catch-cry. You're only going to show yourself to be foolish. Such as the person today who accused me of being P2W because I was using Concentrated Tachyon Mines. He was flying a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, would you believe. Pot. Kettle. Black. You never know, if you talk the person they may show you how to earn income in a more effective way than the one you're using. Insult them and I guarantee they won't.
(The above was not meant to make me sound good at PvP. For the record I lose more PvP matches than I win. If someone beats me I try to learn why, not accuse them of any nefarious methods. Learning makes us better, accusing leaves us to stagnate.)
P2w is no guarantee for success, however in the hands of a good player it can be a SIGNIFICANT advantage.
Having that said, Cryptic has absolutely NO idea how to release new content in a balanced fashion. Even stuff in the Fleet stores is totally whacked on balance.
Being able to get something quicker by paying for it isn't Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win is when you can get something via money that you cannot get any other way, and that is inherently superior than any comparable item available via free means.
There is exactly one ship you can get only via payment in this game, and that's the Chimera. I don't think anybody would seriously argue that the Chimera is inherently superior to every other ship in the game.
You can buy the bug from other players in the Auction House. You can grind Dil, trade it for Zen, and buy any of the C-Store ships. People are confusing "this game is a for-profit venture, that pays developers for their work" with Pay 2 Win.
If you're wanting "there is no reason whatsoever to buy anything in this game at any time, and no way to buy anything except skins and clothes", then you're not wanting professional developers to do full time work on the game.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Being able to get something quicker by paying for it isn't Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win is when you can get something via money that you cannot get any other way, and that is inherently superior than any comparable item available via free means.
Are you really defending the lockbox lotto as not paying for power?
That's illogical. It is what it is. People like the OP shouldn't be so thin skinned about what people are saying, since they're just trying to get that kind of reaction. But really, paying money for an advantage is the root of the insult. And that does exist in this game.
You can buy the bug from other players in the Auction House.
And how did that ship get on to the auction house, there was at some point a Cash Transaction made. The item was paid for, whether I paid for it or got someone else to is largely irrelevant to Cryptics balance sheets.
And Snoggy is right, it's hardly a major problem with this game. If you want nice things like MKXII Purple Field Regens you either grind for weeks or buy it with cash.
Of late I've been hearing more and more people whine, whinge and cry "you paid to win." Some of this has been directed at me, some of it has not.
To the people that use this lame catch-cry, grow up. Really. Just grow up.
Firstly, yes, some stuff in this game can be bought. If I choose to buy it with the money that I've worked hard for then that's NO business of yours. Do you go to the really nice houses in your town, throw yourself up against the living room window and cry out, "You paid to live nicely!!" Do you walk up to the owners of nice cars and cry out, "You paid to drive faster than me!!" Do you walk up to people in first class on a plane and cry out, "You paid to travel in more comfort than me!!" No? Then why do it here?
Secondly, this game gives you the avenue to obtain EVERYTHING that you accuse the pay to win people of having WITH NO REAL MONETARY COST TO YOURSELF. Something from the Zen store? You can grind dilithium, convert it to zen and voila. Something from the lobi store? You can grind dilithium to get zen to buy keys or you can grind ECs and buy keys from the exchange. Me? I like grinding EC and buying contraband. Easy dilithium supplement to my regular gameplay.
So, next time you feel the need to call out pay to win (usually when you lose PvP) stop and ask yourself the following:
* Am I wanting to call out P2W because my feelings are hurt at losing?
* Am I not prepared to spend time using the methods that have been given to me to obtain these things for free?
* Do I think accusing the of being P2W will make me feel better?
If you answered yes to any of the above, try and stop yourself. Be mature. Show sportsmanship. Don't sink to the childish level of calling out some stupid little catch-cry. You're only going to show yourself to be foolish. Such as the person today who accused me of being P2W because I was using Concentrated Tachyon Mines. He was flying a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, would you believe. Pot. Kettle. Black. You never know, if you talk the person they may show you how to earn income in a more effective way than the one you're using. Insult them and I guarantee they won't.
(The above was not meant to make me sound good at PvP. For the record I lose more PvP matches than I win. If someone beats me I try to learn why, not accuse them of any nefarious methods. Learning makes us better, accusing leaves us to stagnate.)
I don't even know you; even fought you; but your vision is respectable; now could you please try to get fired by your boss days job and get hired by cryptic; they would benefit from presence ...
It can be a problem. I don't think any of the ships in the store gives an advantage and you can't transfer zen into energy credits so I'm not sure where that is coming from for most, and if you want the best fleet weapons you can't really get those without actually adding marks to the fleet projects so really there's not this whole buy to win from the store culture on this game.
HOWEVER that being said, there is a clear advantage that escorts have over all other ships no matter the captain career and this definitely needs to be addressed as well as the imbalance of the skills. Like the iWin button of the Attack Patterns and Evasive Patterns in the same skill for tacticals. It's just insane that they can make themselves magically immune to holds repels disables shutdowns by simply pressing a single button. That should not be possible. In every case on the series and in the movies, the science and engineers were the ones that could counter CC abilities not the tactical and they did it through a specific means, the whole idea that the LCARS system has an iWin button on the console for the captains chair in the tactical escorts is just beyond weird and it shouldn't exist, just like canons should not be doing more damage overall then beams. They are putting out the same amount of energy, they just fire it differently.
Are you really defending the lockbox lotto as not paying for power?
Accept that for what it is. It's not a big deal.
He wasn't Defending the lockboxes, he was stating that you can access all in-game resources (bar the Life Time/Vet rewards) just by playing the game.
As a silver player there is nothing one has to spend real-life currency on to obtain in the game.
I'm a silver player. Played since the beginning of Jan 2013. I have unlocked the EC cap, unlocked 2 character slots and unlocked the Ning'Tao, NX and Thunderchild ships. I've purchased 2 Fleet Refit ships and saved enough EC to purchase a Temporal Destroyer from the Exchange, all without spending a single Penny.
Are you really defending the lockbox lotto as not paying for power?
That's illogical. It is what it is. People like the OP shouldn't be so thin skinned about what people are saying, since they're just trying to get that kind of reaction. But really, paying money for an advantage is the root of the insult. And that does exist in this game.
Accept that for what it is. It's not a big deal.
Exactly and I think a lot of folks forget about that.
Regardless I would be happy to pay for additional story content and expansion areas over ships. Just my thing but if they introduced say a $20-40 Romulan expansion complete with the race, ships and story line of at least 20 hours. Well I would call that a bigger win for STO and re-focus the developers on creating content for profit.
That is what I like supporting, the ships for me are just a perk, if I want one I buy one. The content is what keeps people buying more ships, so they can try them in more content.
Of late I've been hearing more and more people whine, whinge and cry "you paid to win."
Says the guy that goes around making excuses for cryptic and insulting others by telling them to essentially shut up and leave in multiple posts. I've seen you do it
To the people that use this lame catch-cry, grow up. Really. Just grow up.
Refer to statement #1. and calling people 'whiners' is essentially doing exactly what you're accusing them of doing
Firstly, yes, some stuff in this game can be bought. If I choose to buy it with the money that I've worked hard for then that's NO business of yours
It is if you're using it to your advantage in unmatched pvp matches
Do you go to the really nice houses in your town, throw yourself up against the living room window and cry out, "You paid to live nicely!!" Do you walk up to the owners of nice cars and cry out, "You paid to drive faster than me!!" Do you walk up to people in first class on a plane and cry out, "You paid to travel in more comfort than me!!" No? Then why do it here?
wtf are you talking about? you're ranting like a loon
Secondly, this game gives you the avenue to obtain EVERYTHING that you accuse the pay to win people of having WITH NO REAL MONETARY COST TO YOURSELF.
'to yourself' yeah. right. Nobody in their right mind is going to put that kind of time in constantly to get everything. nobody has that kind of time, nor is it realistic. You're making excuses again
So, next time you feel the need to call out pay to win (usually when you lose PvP) stop and ask yourself the following:
How about next time you feel the need to make excuses and insult everyone you just be quiet instead
If you answered yes to any of the above, try and stop yourself. Be mature. Show sportsmanship. Don't sink to the childish level of calling out some stupid little catch-cry. You're only going to show yourself to be foolish.
Look at what you're doing before you say that again
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Hmm.... you shouldn't say that after what you just said
There's a 15% bonus on your stats on store items. If you add fleet level equipment the gap can be huge. And fleet stuff is also pay to win, considering the amount of resources you need to level up the SB. I wouldn't call that insignificant.
There is pay to win in this game, that's a fact. Like it, hate it, that's how they encourage people to buy new stuff at the expense of the game's life expectancy.
Indeed
At the core of it all, no P2W = no F2P, simple as that.
If the only way you can finance a game is to unbalance it and make it P2W then you don't know how to run a game or a business. So no this is not true. Its just another excuse
Uh, no, not really. Pay to Win means paying to win. Tell me one thing that is guaranteed to give me an advantage no matter the situation.
It means nothing of the sort whatsoever. What it does mean is paying for an advantage. Just because you have an advantage doesn't mean you know how to use it or that you'll win every single time
I would not even call the Bug ship P2W really.
Except that the stats prove it is
Being able to get something quicker by paying for it isn't Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win is when you can get something via money that you cannot get any other way, and that is inherently superior than any comparable item available via free means.
There is exactly one ship you can get only via payment in this game, and that's the Chimera. I don't think anybody would seriously argue that the Chimera is inherently superior to every other ship in the game.
Show me where you can get zen that nobody paid for before you make absurd claims like that
Because instead of jumping through all of the hoops you jumped through, people can just spend money and get all that stuff.
Pay. Win.
It's not a big deal to me. It's really not a big deal to most people. It is what it is. It does exist. And lots of players don't care about it. It's like I said, have thicker skin because the insult is designed to get a rise out of people. Don't take the bait.
But also don't kid yourself into thinking you can't just pay money and get advantages or power in this game. You absolutely can.
According to thousands of posts on these very forums since beta, BoPs make bad players good.
As a BoP enthusiast, I chuckled at that. It's funny how people think the battlecloak is OP or whatever. It is a tool, and one that BoPs pay dearly for in terms of ship stats.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
There's also the fact that I've seen people completely decked out with pay-to-win gear (flying Vestas and using 2-3 universal consoles and other little gimmicks) who still get blown up by me in my old Hegh'ta. Relying on P2W is a fundamentally unstable approach to PvP, and it will backfire.
Funny, the last time I was in a PVP match I was in my Vesta being surrounded and targeted by three Jemmy Bugs.
I can assure you, I wasn't feeling particularly "pay to win" at that moment/second before I exploded.
It's odd that when pay to win is the subject, the vesta gets tossed out front and center, but the Jemmy Bug not so much. But yet I see more bugs in PVP matches now a days than I do Vestas.
My Vesta didn't cost a fraction as much as average Jemmy Bug. Just sayin
Funny, the last time I was in a PVP match I was in my Vesta being surrounded and targeted by three Jemmy Bugs.
I can assure you, I wasn't feeling particularly "pay to win" at that moment/second before I exploded.
It's odd that when pay to win is the subject, the vesta gets tossed out front and center, but the Jemmy Bug not so much. But yet I see more bugs in PVP matches now a days than I do Vestas.
My Vesta didn't cost a fraction as much as average Jemmy Bug. Just sayin
Replace "Vesta" with "Galaxy-X" and you know exactly how I feel.
Being able to get something quicker by paying for it isn't Pay 2 Win. Pay 2 Win is when you can get something via money that you cannot get any other way, and that is inherently superior than any comparable item available via free means.
There is exactly one ship you can get only via payment in this game, and that's the Chimera. I don't think anybody would seriously argue that the Chimera is inherently superior to every other ship in the game.
You can buy the bug from other players in the Auction House. You can grind Dil, trade it for Zen, and buy any of the C-Store ships. People are confusing "this game is a for-profit venture, that pays developers for their work" with Pay 2 Win.
If you're wanting "there is no reason whatsoever to buy anything in this game at any time, and no way to buy anything except skins and clothes", then you're not wanting professional developers to do full time work on the game.
i'ma have to agree with syber here. with a minor change. there are 4 ships you can only get by paying. chimera/pech'gu (or however it's spelled). constitution class enterprise (from collector's edition). and two varieties of Steamrunner (from steam pack).
otherwise, everything can be obtained by playing the game. there is no pay to win here. pay to not spend tons of time grinding and farming, sure. win? not so much.
it all comes down to how highly you value your time.
p2w callouts and whines are an excuse from people who don't want to spend the money or take the time to get the things they need to compete.
Funny, the last time I was in a PVP match I was in my Vesta being surrounded and targeted by three Jemmy Bugs.
I can assure you, I wasn't feeling particularly "pay to win" at that moment/second before I exploded.
It's odd that when pay to win is the subject, the vesta gets tossed out front and center, but the Jemmy Bug not so much. But yet I see more bugs in PVP matches now a days than I do Vestas.
My Vesta didn't cost a fraction as much as average Jemmy Bug. Just sayin
Um on the PvP forums the Jem was called that when it was released. What's worse when the Dev team breaks something, there's no policy to punish those who abuse the broken item. So, not only don't they care about balance, they don't really care about exploiters unless it undermines Cryptic's bottom line.
To the OP P2W => steep power creep curve, add Cryptic's idea of balance (even w/o p2w items) and you have some very crazy results. There are different tiers to the power creep w/various ships/items/abilities that are all over the map in effectives. Cryptic Mgt has no desire to attempt to balance the game (though some Devs seem to want to). Things are so over the map now, you'll never really get players to agree on what is or isn't out of line. This leaves it to the individual player to decide for themselves what is or is not out of bounds, both in terms of what they fly against and what they'll use. This is why you have people complaining while still using p2w (the power creep has gotten so bad it's really hard not to have any and be competative vs a decent pvper anymore).
Also, P2W means most Dev time is spent on creating P2W sales opportunities instead of other features (PvE and PvP). There's some resentment from lacking PvP development to very little PvE non-grind content being released. This is another reason some will complain.
I'd stick to a polite "gg" in zone and move on. If someone spams you w/pms ignore/report them if needed. Personally, I find ignore to be one of the nicer features in game.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Think of it this way. Paying to have all pawns promoted to queens at the start of a chess match might not mean that auto wins, but it's a pretty much gonna happen vs anyone who knows the games rules and has 1/2 a brain.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Think of it this way. Paying to have all pawns promoted to queens at the start of a chess match might not mean that auto wins, but it's a pretty much gonna happen vs anyone who knows the games rules and has 1/2 a brain.
i agree, that would be pay to win. because there's not normally a mechanic in chess that allows that to happen. chess isn't a great metaphor for sto tho, because it's not moderated by a third party. a better metaphor would be a free admission basketball tournament. it's like paying the organizers of the tourney to give all your players two pairs of shoes that're designed to work better on the unique slipperier surface of their court. the other team can either also pay for the good shoes from the organizers, or buy the extra set of shoes that your players sell them (or, if you want to use the "earned by playing the game" thing, earn the shoes from your players by impressing them with your basketball skills). or use a stock pair of shoes from the store.
Get all what stuff? What's so great that you can buy?
I have to go back to the previous post, but the person I was quoting listed a bunch of ships they say they bought with Zen they got from grinding dilithium in-game.
I was just saying that the pay2win aspect is, that person could have skipped that timesink and bought those ships with cash.
It's not a big deal. I mean, it's pretty much STO in a nutshell. I don't care if someone in my elite STF is flying a bug ship or a Mobius or an Atrox or a free Assault Cruiser. Back when I did PvP regularly I never cared who beat me or who I beat.
People toss around P2W like an insult. And it's designed to get a rise out of the target. The very existence of this thread shows that it got under the OP's skin. The OP needs to chill out. Most of us don't care. And the OP really shouldn't let those blatant insults get to them.
Play the game. Have fun. I don't care how someone spends their money, their zen or their lobi.
i agree, that would be pay to win. because there's not normally a mechanic in chess that allows that to happen. chess isn't a great metaphor for sto tho, because it's not moderated by a third party. a better metaphor would be a free admission basketball tournament. it's like paying the organizers of the tourney to give all your players two pairs of shoes that're designed to work better on the unique slipperier surface of their court. the other team can either also pay for the good shoes from the organizers, or buy the extra set of shoes that your players sell them (or, if you want to use the "earned by playing the game" thing, earn the shoes from your players by impressing them with your basketball skills). or use a stock pair of shoes from the store.
Fyi, chess tourneys are moderated. There's a set of restrictions/rules etc. Though you are correct there's no mechanic in chess tourney's that allows for people to pay for advantages like you can in this game. The time aspect does apply since in the case I mentioned the time to promote the pawns was sped up vs having to actually move get them to the last rank.
It gets to his question imo better than the sneaker/shoe example since it better demonstrates the power creep in this game. Being up a queen, being the most powerful piece, doesn't mean victory. But all other things being equal I'd rather be in the position to have 1 or more when the other side doesn't. But, if I play poorly I could still get back row mated for example.
Imo, PvE is so weak many players don't know the game. To take the analogy further, would you bet on the player who starts down a rook as a handicap, but is well trained in the various techniques of chess or the player who is up a rook, but just learned how the pieces move, hasn't played a game, and therefore doesn't know anything else about tactics or strategies of chess? I'd take the player who has the knowledge of the game. This is what it's like for new players in PvP, but instead of getting a handicap, they're the ones starting down a piece or more b/c of the time gating.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Of late I've been hearing more and more people whine, whinge and cry "you paid to win." Some of this has been directed at me, some of it has not.
To the people that use this lame catch-cry, grow up. Really. Just grow up.
Firstly, yes, some stuff in this game can be bought. If I choose to buy it with the money that I've worked hard for then that's NO business of yours. Do you go to the really nice houses in your town, throw yourself up against the living room window and cry out, "You paid to live nicely!!" Do you walk up to the owners of nice cars and cry out, "You paid to drive faster than me!!" Do you walk up to people in first class on a plane and cry out, "You paid to travel in more comfort than me!!" No? Then why do it here?
Secondly, this game gives you the avenue to obtain EVERYTHING that you accuse the pay to win people of having WITH NO REAL MONETARY COST TO YOURSELF. Something from the Zen store? You can grind dilithium, convert it to zen and voila. Something from the lobi store? You can grind dilithium to get zen to buy keys or you can grind ECs and buy keys from the exchange. Me? I like grinding EC and buying contraband. Easy dilithium supplement to my regular gameplay.
So, next time you feel the need to call out pay to win (usually when you lose PvP) stop and ask yourself the following:
* Am I wanting to call out P2W because my feelings are hurt at losing?
* Am I not prepared to spend time using the methods that have been given to me to obtain these things for free?
* Do I think accusing the of being P2W will make me feel better?
If you answered yes to any of the above, try and stop yourself. Be mature. Show sportsmanship. Don't sink to the childish level of calling out some stupid little catch-cry. You're only going to show yourself to be foolish. Such as the person today who accused me of being P2W because I was using Concentrated Tachyon Mines. He was flying a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, would you believe. Pot. Kettle. Black. You never know, if you talk the person they may show you how to earn income in a more effective way than the one you're using. Insult them and I guarantee they won't.
(The above was not meant to make me sound good at PvP. For the record I lose more PvP matches than I win. If someone beats me I try to learn why, not accuse them of any nefarious methods. Learning makes us better, accusing leaves us to stagnate.)
Whenever someone shouts, "P2W!" at me, my standard answer is, "You're welcome!" If no one ever spent any Real Money on this game, PWE/Cryptic would have no reason to continue the game. Attention, people! PWE/Cryptic are in the entertainment business! To a lot of us STO is just a game. To PWE/Cryptic, this is a revenuestream. They most definitely are not doing all this work out of the goodness of their heart or at the whim of some uber wealthy benefactor who has more cash than sense.
If shouting "P2W" at my Vesta(Quite a neat little ship, BTW) make you feel better about yourself, then by all means go right on ahead and do so. Who am I to deny you this small measure of happiness? But I would like to point out here you have the option to make the same choices I did in the game as regarding spending Real Money. For whatever reason, you've elected not to spend money on STO. I can understand this and respect it. There are many many things far more important than STO could ever hope to be. It is simply the way I chose to get my daily Star Trek fix. And I have decided on a few occasions to take my habit up a level or two. I really like the Vesta a great deal and decided to express this by spending Real Money.
Does my purchased ship give me a unbeatable advantage in PvP? Sadly, no. Did I know this prior to spending my discretionary income this way? Yes, I did. Do I really care someone is so deeply offended by my very presence, and that of my US $25.00 starship, they feel compelled to go out of their way to publicly belittle me? No, not really. One of the coolest things about having money is I don't have to worry at all about what others may think of me.
God Bless whomever it was who came up with the idea for the 'Ignore' button. I've nearly worn mine out, I think. And I will still spend Real Money on this game when and if I choose to do so. Because I can. Because I want to. I wear the 'P2W' badge with pride and honor. Because, thanks to those who spend Real Money, the Devs will get to continue earning their living by continuing to work on making STO. And the people who fling "P2W" about with such reckless abandon will get to keep playing STO as well. Looks like a "win-win" to me, lol
A six year old boy and his starship. Living the dream.
Of late I've been hearing more and more people whine, whinge and cry "you paid to win." Some of this has been directed at me, some of it has not.
To the people that use this lame catch-cry, grow up. Really. Just grow up.
Firstly, yes, some stuff in this game can be bought. If I choose to buy it with the money that I've worked hard for then that's NO business of yours. Do you go to the really nice houses in your town, throw yourself up against the living room window and cry out, "You paid to live nicely!!" Do you walk up to the owners of nice cars and cry out, "You paid to drive faster than me!!" Do you walk up to people in first class on a plane and cry out, "You paid to travel in more comfort than me!!" No? Then why do it here?
Secondly, this game gives you the avenue to obtain EVERYTHING that you accuse the pay to win people of having WITH NO REAL MONETARY COST TO YOURSELF. Something from the Zen store? You can grind dilithium, convert it to zen and voila. Something from the lobi store? You can grind dilithium to get zen to buy keys or you can grind ECs and buy keys from the exchange. Me? I like grinding EC and buying contraband. Easy dilithium supplement to my regular gameplay.
So, next time you feel the need to call out pay to win (usually when you lose PvP) stop and ask yourself the following:
* Am I wanting to call out P2W because my feelings are hurt at losing?
* Am I not prepared to spend time using the methods that have been given to me to obtain these things for free?
* Do I think accusing the of being P2W will make me feel better?
If you answered yes to any of the above, try and stop yourself. Be mature. Show sportsmanship. Don't sink to the childish level of calling out some stupid little catch-cry. You're only going to show yourself to be foolish. Such as the person today who accused me of being P2W because I was using Concentrated Tachyon Mines. He was flying a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, would you believe. Pot. Kettle. Black. You never know, if you talk the person they may show you how to earn income in a more effective way than the one you're using. Insult them and I guarantee they won't.
(The above was not meant to make me sound good at PvP. For the record I lose more PvP matches than I win. If someone beats me I try to learn why, not accuse them of any nefarious methods. Learning makes us better, accusing leaves us to stagnate.)
Couldn't agree more this community is being allowed to run rampant by trolls, the forums are a depressing mess which neither branflakes or the community mods seem interested in clamping down on. Please note this is not discussing moderation just an observation.
If you're wanting "there is no reason whatsoever to buy anything in this game at any time, and no way to buy anything except skins and clothes", then you're not wanting professional developers to do full time work on the game.
Well, you could play GW or GW2, neither of which has ever had a subscription cost. In fact, GW was one of the first games to introduce a f2p business model. Both of these games have real money stores which sell vanity and aesthetic items only. Both of these games are vastly more successful than STO is or ever will be.
So please, stop trying to pretend or rationalize that STO does not have a P2W component.
Having said that, since I avoid STFs and PVP in STO like the plague, I really couldn't care less about P2W in STO; however, I'm not naive enough to stick my head in the sand and think it's not there.
Comments
P2w is no guarantee for success, however in the hands of a good player it can be a SIGNIFICANT advantage.
Having that said, Cryptic has absolutely NO idea how to release new content in a balanced fashion. Even stuff in the Fleet stores is totally whacked on balance.
There is exactly one ship you can get only via payment in this game, and that's the Chimera. I don't think anybody would seriously argue that the Chimera is inherently superior to every other ship in the game.
You can buy the bug from other players in the Auction House. You can grind Dil, trade it for Zen, and buy any of the C-Store ships. People are confusing "this game is a for-profit venture, that pays developers for their work" with Pay 2 Win.
If you're wanting "there is no reason whatsoever to buy anything in this game at any time, and no way to buy anything except skins and clothes", then you're not wanting professional developers to do full time work on the game.
That's illogical. It is what it is. People like the OP shouldn't be so thin skinned about what people are saying, since they're just trying to get that kind of reaction. But really, paying money for an advantage is the root of the insult. And that does exist in this game.
Accept that for what it is. It's not a big deal.
And how did that ship get on to the auction house, there was at some point a Cash Transaction made. The item was paid for, whether I paid for it or got someone else to is largely irrelevant to Cryptics balance sheets.
And Snoggy is right, it's hardly a major problem with this game. If you want nice things like MKXII Purple Field Regens you either grind for weeks or buy it with cash.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
I don't even know you; even fought you; but your vision is respectable; now could you please try to get fired by your boss days job and get hired by cryptic; they would benefit from presence ...
HOWEVER that being said, there is a clear advantage that escorts have over all other ships no matter the captain career and this definitely needs to be addressed as well as the imbalance of the skills. Like the iWin button of the Attack Patterns and Evasive Patterns in the same skill for tacticals. It's just insane that they can make themselves magically immune to holds repels disables shutdowns by simply pressing a single button. That should not be possible. In every case on the series and in the movies, the science and engineers were the ones that could counter CC abilities not the tactical and they did it through a specific means, the whole idea that the LCARS system has an iWin button on the console for the captains chair in the tactical escorts is just beyond weird and it shouldn't exist, just like canons should not be doing more damage overall then beams. They are putting out the same amount of energy, they just fire it differently.
He wasn't Defending the lockboxes, he was stating that you can access all in-game resources (bar the Life Time/Vet rewards) just by playing the game.
As a silver player there is nothing one has to spend real-life currency on to obtain in the game.
I'm a silver player. Played since the beginning of Jan 2013. I have unlocked the EC cap, unlocked 2 character slots and unlocked the Ning'Tao, NX and Thunderchild ships. I've purchased 2 Fleet Refit ships and saved enough EC to purchase a Temporal Destroyer from the Exchange, all without spending a single Penny.
How is this "Pay to Win"?
Exactly and I think a lot of folks forget about that.
Regardless I would be happy to pay for additional story content and expansion areas over ships. Just my thing but if they introduced say a $20-40 Romulan expansion complete with the race, ships and story line of at least 20 hours. Well I would call that a bigger win for STO and re-focus the developers on creating content for profit.
That is what I like supporting, the ships for me are just a perk, if I want one I buy one. The content is what keeps people buying more ships, so they can try them in more content.
Awoken Dead
Now shaddup about the queues, it's a BUG
Says the guy that goes around making excuses for cryptic and insulting others by telling them to essentially shut up and leave in multiple posts. I've seen you do it
Refer to statement #1. and calling people 'whiners' is essentially doing exactly what you're accusing them of doing
It is if you're using it to your advantage in unmatched pvp matches
wtf are you talking about? you're ranting like a loon
'to yourself' yeah. right. Nobody in their right mind is going to put that kind of time in constantly to get everything. nobody has that kind of time, nor is it realistic. You're making excuses again
How about next time you feel the need to make excuses and insult everyone you just be quiet instead
Look at what you're doing before you say that again
Hmm.... you shouldn't say that after what you just said
Indeed
If the only way you can finance a game is to unbalance it and make it P2W then you don't know how to run a game or a business. So no this is not true. Its just another excuse
It means nothing of the sort whatsoever. What it does mean is paying for an advantage. Just because you have an advantage doesn't mean you know how to use it or that you'll win every single time
Except that the stats prove it is
Show me where you can get zen that nobody paid for before you make absurd claims like that
Pay. Win.
It's not a big deal to me. It's really not a big deal to most people. It is what it is. It does exist. And lots of players don't care about it. It's like I said, have thicker skin because the insult is designed to get a rise out of people. Don't take the bait.
But also don't kid yourself into thinking you can't just pay money and get advantages or power in this game. You absolutely can.
It's just not a terribly big deal.
As a BoP enthusiast, I chuckled at that. It's funny how people think the battlecloak is OP or whatever. It is a tool, and one that BoPs pay dearly for in terms of ship stats.
Funny, the last time I was in a PVP match I was in my Vesta being surrounded and targeted by three Jemmy Bugs.
I can assure you, I wasn't feeling particularly "pay to win" at that moment/second before I exploded.
It's odd that when pay to win is the subject, the vesta gets tossed out front and center, but the Jemmy Bug not so much. But yet I see more bugs in PVP matches now a days than I do Vestas.
My Vesta didn't cost a fraction as much as average Jemmy Bug. Just sayin
Wait, WHAT?
Get all what stuff? What's so great that you can buy?
Replace "Vesta" with "Galaxy-X" and you know exactly how I feel.
i'ma have to agree with syber here. with a minor change. there are 4 ships you can only get by paying. chimera/pech'gu (or however it's spelled). constitution class enterprise (from collector's edition). and two varieties of Steamrunner (from steam pack).
otherwise, everything can be obtained by playing the game. there is no pay to win here. pay to not spend tons of time grinding and farming, sure. win? not so much.
it all comes down to how highly you value your time.
p2w callouts and whines are an excuse from people who don't want to spend the money or take the time to get the things they need to compete.
Um on the PvP forums the Jem was called that when it was released. What's worse when the Dev team breaks something, there's no policy to punish those who abuse the broken item. So, not only don't they care about balance, they don't really care about exploiters unless it undermines Cryptic's bottom line.
To the OP P2W => steep power creep curve, add Cryptic's idea of balance (even w/o p2w items) and you have some very crazy results. There are different tiers to the power creep w/various ships/items/abilities that are all over the map in effectives. Cryptic Mgt has no desire to attempt to balance the game (though some Devs seem to want to). Things are so over the map now, you'll never really get players to agree on what is or isn't out of line. This leaves it to the individual player to decide for themselves what is or is not out of bounds, both in terms of what they fly against and what they'll use. This is why you have people complaining while still using p2w (the power creep has gotten so bad it's really hard not to have any and be competative vs a decent pvper anymore).
Also, P2W means most Dev time is spent on creating P2W sales opportunities instead of other features (PvE and PvP). There's some resentment from lacking PvP development to very little PvE non-grind content being released. This is another reason some will complain.
I'd stick to a polite "gg" in zone and move on. If someone spams you w/pms ignore/report them if needed. Personally, I find ignore to be one of the nicer features in game.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Think of it this way. Paying to have all pawns promoted to queens at the start of a chess match might not mean that auto wins, but it's a pretty much gonna happen vs anyone who knows the games rules and has 1/2 a brain.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
i agree, that would be pay to win. because there's not normally a mechanic in chess that allows that to happen. chess isn't a great metaphor for sto tho, because it's not moderated by a third party. a better metaphor would be a free admission basketball tournament. it's like paying the organizers of the tourney to give all your players two pairs of shoes that're designed to work better on the unique slipperier surface of their court. the other team can either also pay for the good shoes from the organizers, or buy the extra set of shoes that your players sell them (or, if you want to use the "earned by playing the game" thing, earn the shoes from your players by impressing them with your basketball skills). or use a stock pair of shoes from the store.
Baseball.
I was just saying that the pay2win aspect is, that person could have skipped that timesink and bought those ships with cash.
It's not a big deal. I mean, it's pretty much STO in a nutshell. I don't care if someone in my elite STF is flying a bug ship or a Mobius or an Atrox or a free Assault Cruiser. Back when I did PvP regularly I never cared who beat me or who I beat.
People toss around P2W like an insult. And it's designed to get a rise out of the target. The very existence of this thread shows that it got under the OP's skin. The OP needs to chill out. Most of us don't care. And the OP really shouldn't let those blatant insults get to them.
Play the game. Have fun. I don't care how someone spends their money, their zen or their lobi.
Fyi, chess tourneys are moderated. There's a set of restrictions/rules etc. Though you are correct there's no mechanic in chess tourney's that allows for people to pay for advantages like you can in this game. The time aspect does apply since in the case I mentioned the time to promote the pawns was sped up vs having to actually move get them to the last rank.
It gets to his question imo better than the sneaker/shoe example since it better demonstrates the power creep in this game. Being up a queen, being the most powerful piece, doesn't mean victory. But all other things being equal I'd rather be in the position to have 1 or more when the other side doesn't. But, if I play poorly I could still get back row mated for example.
Imo, PvE is so weak many players don't know the game. To take the analogy further, would you bet on the player who starts down a rook as a handicap, but is well trained in the various techniques of chess or the player who is up a rook, but just learned how the pieces move, hasn't played a game, and therefore doesn't know anything else about tactics or strategies of chess? I'd take the player who has the knowledge of the game. This is what it's like for new players in PvP, but instead of getting a handicap, they're the ones starting down a piece or more b/c of the time gating.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
:cool:
Paying to win buys you the cheese, not the victory itself. Pretty simple concept, I don't see why you are all confused about it.
Elite Defense Stovokor
If shouting "P2W" at my Vesta(Quite a neat little ship, BTW) make you feel better about yourself, then by all means go right on ahead and do so. Who am I to deny you this small measure of happiness? But I would like to point out here you have the option to make the same choices I did in the game as regarding spending Real Money. For whatever reason, you've elected not to spend money on STO. I can understand this and respect it. There are many many things far more important than STO could ever hope to be. It is simply the way I chose to get my daily Star Trek fix. And I have decided on a few occasions to take my habit up a level or two. I really like the Vesta a great deal and decided to express this by spending Real Money.
Does my purchased ship give me a unbeatable advantage in PvP? Sadly, no. Did I know this prior to spending my discretionary income this way? Yes, I did. Do I really care someone is so deeply offended by my very presence, and that of my US $25.00 starship, they feel compelled to go out of their way to publicly belittle me? No, not really. One of the coolest things about having money is I don't have to worry at all about what others may think of me.
God Bless whomever it was who came up with the idea for the 'Ignore' button. I've nearly worn mine out, I think. And I will still spend Real Money on this game when and if I choose to do so. Because I can. Because I want to. I wear the 'P2W' badge with pride and honor. Because, thanks to those who spend Real Money, the Devs will get to continue earning their living by continuing to work on making STO. And the people who fling "P2W" about with such reckless abandon will get to keep playing STO as well. Looks like a "win-win" to me, lol
Couldn't agree more this community is being allowed to run rampant by trolls, the forums are a depressing mess which neither branflakes or the community mods seem interested in clamping down on. Please note this is not discussing moderation just an observation.
Well, you could play GW or GW2, neither of which has ever had a subscription cost. In fact, GW was one of the first games to introduce a f2p business model. Both of these games have real money stores which sell vanity and aesthetic items only. Both of these games are vastly more successful than STO is or ever will be.
So please, stop trying to pretend or rationalize that STO does not have a P2W component.
Having said that, since I avoid STFs and PVP in STO like the plague, I really couldn't care less about P2W in STO; however, I'm not naive enough to stick my head in the sand and think it's not there.