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Question about PVP for Devs
captainpirko
Member Posts: 270 Arc User
hello, i've been a casual/pretty active PVPer for a while now. mostly karrat system, but always the daily arena/capture and hold. i play on both klink and feddy sides, and now i have a question...
its generally agreed the bugship (jemhadar attack ship) is the most over powered ship in game. it rips apart cruiser/escorts/science without any good way to defend against it, and its generally accepted that unless the bugship is fail, or your extremely good, your going to need 2-3 people to handle it.
now, i have a question, and with the ship being offered again it makes me really curious what the devs think.
this is star trek, right? federation are the good guys, klingons are the bad guys. why is the most powerful ship in game from neither of these factions? i can understand the bugship being GOOD. i mean you have to pay through the nose to get it, regardless of what means you decide to go with, so one would hope it'd be a pretty good ship. however, when it takes 3 really good defiants to take out a single bugship... that's a bit extreme dont you think?
in the show the USS defiant took out hundreds of bugships with ease. they hurt sure, but just one defiant took out quite a number without too much help from the other ships around. how is it in any way accurate that 3 defiants take 5 minutes to make any progress on a ship like that?
not just do i find it to be taking away from the fun, but i also find it very unreasonable, and here's my reasons for this:
it takes away from the fun of a star trek game, where i have a ship i love, ex. the multivector class. love the ship, favorite design in trek. if i take it into PVP i dont stand a chance if a decent bugship comes along. my turnrate feels like half that of a bugship, i have less defense, less damage, less everything. to compete with a bugship, i'd need another bugship, and i'm sure it'd be a perfectly even battle. however why would i want to do that? the MVAM is my ship, do i really have to get a whole new ship thats also T5, simply because the competition is using OP ships? this not just takes away from the fun of PVP, but the game in general. there's no point in doing so much work on a ship when you take it into PVP and even your fleet variant doesnt stand a chance.
another reason i dont like this ship is simple. i've always felt there was a strong balance in the ships. escorts take out cruisers, which take out science, which take out escorts. fly a escort on either faction, and meet a science that knows what it's doing, and i'm sure you'd be ticked off at it very quickly without any way out (unless your a bugship then somehow its immune to fighting 3 science with MK12 gear)
the bugship shatters this balance in my view. it murders cruisers without any help, is easily able to overcome science ships, and of course is the top dog in the escort world. the only ship that comes close is the wells class, another lockbox ship.
i dont mind lockbox ships being powerful, you gotta spend alot to get them, but make it balanced between normal ships and lockbox. when i go into PVP i like to see a variety of federation ships, fly into a force of klingon ships. not a bunch of cardassian, jemhadar, ships not invented yet, and some random ferengi ship, take on a force of almost the same exact ships, except with a few brels on one side biting at peoples nacels.
this is just my opinion, and that of the majority of my fleet. i dont mind a ship able to dish out damage very quickly, i just dont want it to tank better then a deadnought when its about half the size of my ship and i'm in an escort.
its generally agreed the bugship (jemhadar attack ship) is the most over powered ship in game. it rips apart cruiser/escorts/science without any good way to defend against it, and its generally accepted that unless the bugship is fail, or your extremely good, your going to need 2-3 people to handle it.
now, i have a question, and with the ship being offered again it makes me really curious what the devs think.
this is star trek, right? federation are the good guys, klingons are the bad guys. why is the most powerful ship in game from neither of these factions? i can understand the bugship being GOOD. i mean you have to pay through the nose to get it, regardless of what means you decide to go with, so one would hope it'd be a pretty good ship. however, when it takes 3 really good defiants to take out a single bugship... that's a bit extreme dont you think?
in the show the USS defiant took out hundreds of bugships with ease. they hurt sure, but just one defiant took out quite a number without too much help from the other ships around. how is it in any way accurate that 3 defiants take 5 minutes to make any progress on a ship like that?
not just do i find it to be taking away from the fun, but i also find it very unreasonable, and here's my reasons for this:
it takes away from the fun of a star trek game, where i have a ship i love, ex. the multivector class. love the ship, favorite design in trek. if i take it into PVP i dont stand a chance if a decent bugship comes along. my turnrate feels like half that of a bugship, i have less defense, less damage, less everything. to compete with a bugship, i'd need another bugship, and i'm sure it'd be a perfectly even battle. however why would i want to do that? the MVAM is my ship, do i really have to get a whole new ship thats also T5, simply because the competition is using OP ships? this not just takes away from the fun of PVP, but the game in general. there's no point in doing so much work on a ship when you take it into PVP and even your fleet variant doesnt stand a chance.
another reason i dont like this ship is simple. i've always felt there was a strong balance in the ships. escorts take out cruisers, which take out science, which take out escorts. fly a escort on either faction, and meet a science that knows what it's doing, and i'm sure you'd be ticked off at it very quickly without any way out (unless your a bugship then somehow its immune to fighting 3 science with MK12 gear)
the bugship shatters this balance in my view. it murders cruisers without any help, is easily able to overcome science ships, and of course is the top dog in the escort world. the only ship that comes close is the wells class, another lockbox ship.
i dont mind lockbox ships being powerful, you gotta spend alot to get them, but make it balanced between normal ships and lockbox. when i go into PVP i like to see a variety of federation ships, fly into a force of klingon ships. not a bunch of cardassian, jemhadar, ships not invented yet, and some random ferengi ship, take on a force of almost the same exact ships, except with a few brels on one side biting at peoples nacels.
this is just my opinion, and that of the majority of my fleet. i dont mind a ship able to dish out damage very quickly, i just dont want it to tank better then a deadnought when its about half the size of my ship and i'm in an escort.
[SIGPIC]Timelords Fleet [/SIGPIC]
Post edited by captainpirko on
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I've noticed that players have many complaints regarding different aspects of the game, and personally, this is the only problem I have with the game. I love the new reputation and ship systems. It gives me something to do and look forward to. I also would like to thank the people at Cryptic studies for doing such a great job on a great game
I understand that lowering its stats would be a bit unfair, so maybe you can consider raising the stats to certain escorts.
I agree with captain pirko that the multi vector should be better than it currently is, not to mention the defiant and sao paolo.
If this reply was read by anyone working at Cryptic studios, I would like to offer my thanks for the best game I have ever played. Keep it up
So for on1 you can defeat it, even though its still a challenge. And in a team, its just your normal teamplay to bring it down. When pugging you wont have the letter, so of course its pretty difficult to kill it, and you see more bad players flying a defiant than flying a jhas, so its also obvous, one would see the jhas as something ?godlike, since they are flown in pvp by mostly good players. but those players do not really care about the ship they fly.
Ah yeah: Escort>Cruiser>Science>Escort doesnt work with decent players -1on1- it will always be a draw.
There is a big inbalance between the 2 factions and jhas helps a little to compensate this because it is available to both parts.
What OP is saying is "buff federation escorts so they would be equal to jhas"
Federation has now 3 escorts with 5 tac console,1 escort with 5 fore weapons and a hybrid DBB-cannon thing capable to hit with at least 95k
Kdf has nothing in escort range to compare to federation escorts so almost every kdf pvp-er is forced to use lockbox ships or bops.
If OP really want that the game look more than star trek he should start by asking Cryptic to make more powerfull kdf ships because otherwise in PVP there will be more and more lockbox ships.
I refuse to be content https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U
This is singulary the biggest piece of rubbish I've ever read. You cannot compete with a JHAS and thats the point. I just blank the players using them in PvP, firing on other targets and ignore them completely after the game. Not playing this game to support such obvious cheating and abuse of money.
If they cannot stick to the faction they are playing, they are just sell-outs and not worth my time or effort. I do this for all lockbox ships. Never bought one in my life.
Nerf the son'ova'beech, bring it into balance with the other lockbox and fleet vessels.
This isn't an Anti-KDF thread, take the angst elsewhere.
that is not so much true.
escort vs escort, the JHAS is the best ship (I know, I have one), but not against a good debuffer or a good healer.
A good debuffer (sci captain on a science vessel) can weaken the JHAS enough to stop it and sometime also destroy it, and a good healer (eng captain on a cruiser) at least can survive to the bug ship's attack. Much depend on the builds.
Just yesterday my debuffer had a challenge against a JHAS: I did not destroy it, but the JHAS had to fly away from me several times. That guys said me that my build was weaken, but He did not realized that a debuffer stopped him and was near to win.
1 vs 1, I often do it and sometime I also win.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
it's only "1% chance to strip one buff while using Polaron Weaponry "
1% to clear only one buff... and the jhas must use one of the worst shields.
The power of a jhas is not in that passive.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
TBH this latest promotion has me worried. I was of the opinion that the Dominion Lockbox might not have sold as well because they so clearly rushed the Kumari (as a ship pack no less!) so soon after it. But 2 or 3 weeks later a JHAS promo??!! Guess the Kumari didn't sell as well as hoped either? from the area around ESD I didn't see the sky full of Kumaris like it was with Odys when that ship came out.
If it was another company I'd say "d'uh! people get their favorite ship and will fight you tooth and nail to stay in it and/or ship collectors can't even get more ship slots or realized they have lots of shiny ships but no new content to use them in, so they stopped buying ships!...OR, they're close to a T5 shipyard, and wonder why they would spend on anything not from it considering the long painful grind they've done to get there?" and that would spur the company in releasing other items for sale that WEREN'T ships.
But this is Cryptic, I would bet their terrible attempt at character unlock outfits as well as its cold reception by the playerbase has pretty much closed off that avenue of revenue as "not profitable enough", so I almost fear what they will try next. What scheme will they come up? Whatever it is, its bound to have as low a value for the costumer as possible. I will be happy to be proven wrong though, not on their sales faltering (as that would be a GOOD thing in pushing them to do something else for a change)but in them responding with a better variety of sales items.
Now however I doubt that will be possible even in a fleet defiant as they got a 10% hull and shield increase since then and the 5th tactical slot. Yes fleet defiant has the 5th slot too and 10% more hull but it didn't get more shields. Another thing to bear in mind is that the Jem hadar set has been beefed up for a costly price. The only people that used them were JHAS owners but still they've had that boosted now so they're considerably more deadly.
Ships can come close and you'll still beat a bad player in a bug but even if you're a good player you'll find it almost impossible to beat a bug 1 on 1 unless you have halor klum and have SNB.
It is through repetition that we learn our weakness.
A master with a stone is better than a novice with a sword.
Has damage got out of control?
This is the last thing I will post.
so here it is: you will require 1 fleet defiant, 1 science character (can be the defiant or cruiser) and a light cruiser, or a cruiser that can maneuver better then the fat things that usually follow me everywhere.
start by having the defiant rush the bugship and get into a dogfight. if the defiant has at least 2 RCS thrusters they can keep up, especially if you moderate your use of evasive maneuvers and engine batteries. have the cruiser use as much speed stuff as it can and fly over the bugship with warp plasma. if possible, put the warp plasma directly infront and around it so it's stuck in there for as long as possible. when the bugship hits hazard emitters, sub nuc it to remove all it's buffs. it is now stuck in warp plasma. Tricobalt mines and viral matrix will now finish the job.
note: while tricobalts were recently nerfed, they still do massive damage in mine form. i can no longer drop a tactical cube in elite by 30% with mines, however they still rip holes in tiny bugships, at least while they're stuck in warp plasma. you'll have about 30 seconds to lay down as much damage as possible. if your lucky they used either tactical team or reverse shield polarity before getting hit by sub nuc and therefore you only have to deal with one of those skills at most. which means their shields are quickly not an issue
recommended build for the defiant would be:
3DHC 1dual beam bank
rapidfire 2(or greater) beam overload 2(or greater)
to properly take out the bugship.
remember, dont spam skills, wait for the perfect moment.
I have it and hate flying it, its just a big target symbol lol. And ive had mine for over a year.
I agree it is a tough ship..... it's smaller than my Escort Carrier yet has a higher hull rating and that makes no sense. The hull rating on that ship in my opinion should be less than even a Vesta, maybe around 22-25k.
It all seems rather "Cryptic", pardon the pun..... :rolleyes:
It's worked for them for the past three years, amirite?
edit: Here's some tips for beating the most common JHAS setup, that being DHCs and turrets. If the JHAS' nose is pointed at you, you have a few seconds to live. Use this time to get behind him. If it's charging at you, charge right back at it while firing (this forces most pilots to pump fore shields), and then cross over it. After you cross it, immobilize it with the tool of your choice, and open up into its hopefully weakened butt shield with everything you have. A strong aft weapon battery is very helpful in this regard. There's also a certain console available on the exchange which really helps with the 'immobilizing' portion of the fight, but I'll let y'all figure out what that is yourselves - gotta keep some trade secrets
Remember, the JHAS you'll most likely encounter in PVP is lethal from the front, but mediocre in all other fire arcs. Don't let it turn, or if you're agile enough, stay on its TRIBBLE even as it does turn, and you'll be able to hold it down and beat it to death.
Oh, and naturally, you need high DPS yourself. The JHAS has lots of engi slots, which means lots of damage resist. It can also repair itself like an em-effer. My setup is capable of tremendous spike damage - all I really need to do is drop my target's shields, because once I start hitting hull, it's over in a torpedo or two.
this post is sort of funny
when i talk about fighting a JHAS, i'm talking about using NORMAL ships to fight it. aka, not cash shop at all. i fly either my advanced escort, fleet defiant, or klingon raider depending on character. fleet defiant is the only thing that comes close, and even then falls short some of the time mostly dependent on how good the JHAS is.
i know full well a wells class, JHAS, or ferengi ship can take it out 1vs1 without having to worry "am i dealing with someone that took PVP bootcamp or someone that has no clue what they're doing?" at least if they themselves know what they're doing.
no i'm simply asking that cryptic keep some level of balance in the game. fleet ships are supposed to be a "boost" above normal ships, not a whole tier above. and this is done almost perfectly, my normal advanced escort has taken out fleet ships plenty of times across multiple skill levels.
lock box ships feel like they're a tier higher, and most of them its not that noticeable unless your fighting someone with really high skill. the JHAS on the other hand, doesnt take that much skill to take out "normal" ships. which seems a little bit unfair. people work just as hard to get fleet ships, why should lock box ships be buffed to be better?
More shields (modifier 1.0 vs. 0.9)
More hull (34,500 vs. 33,000)
More turn (20 vs. 17)
Better Boff setup (two universal Lt. slots and no Ens. Tac is unarguably better than the Defiant)
So, it turns better, is tougher just on shields and hull, and its Boff setup allows it to tank even more. I wouldn't mind if there was something, somewhere that it paid the price for all this to keep it in balance, but it doesn't. Yes, it comes down largely to build and skill. Yes, you can set it up wrong, and play badly, and lose in it. But in PvP, where a tiny edge can make all the difference, this is more than enough edge to make it the undisputed best escort, and perhaps best ship in PvP. I don't even waste my time shooting at them unless their team is dead and they're isolated, or I can see they're running a poor build. It's not worth the time when you could be shooting at something else which is on an even playing field.
I'd say knock its hull, shields and turn down to equal with the Fleet Defiant. It can keep the universal Boff slots, that's more than enough to still make it a desirable ship.
The fleet defiant (and any version of the defiant above tier 4) is a cash shop ship....
Do you even Science Bro?
And the fleet defiant itself is a very, very good escort. Which is NOT available to everybody either.
Even as a new JHAS owner, I still think it needs to have it's turn rate heavily nerfed to bring it in line.
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[D'Mented][D'Licious]
Joined October 2009. READ BEFORE POSTING
R.I.P
Stop crying and Buy a Patrol escort.
Or a Fleet escort Refit.
They both run the same boff setup that any non moronic Bug pilot is going to slot...
They match it in almost every way minus a bit of turn.
2 Copies of omega... a Aux to Damp and you will out turn 90% of the bug flyers anyway.
The other fed escorts are just as good... people seem to simply lack the basic creativity to set them up proper.
Again, less turn, less shields, less hull. You've essentially traded having the Defiant's 5 tactical consoles for having something approximating the JHAS Boff setup. So comparing to these ships, the JHAS is still quantifiably better. I'm not ready to say it breaks the game fundamentally, but when one ship is provably better than others in its class, it becomes the only ship worth flying if you have access to it. And that's no fun. The only thing preventing PvP from turning into a sea of bug ships is its limited availability. Fundamentally it's still a single ship that:
- Hits like a Defiant
- Tanks like a Patrol Escort
- Handles almost like a Bird of Prey
Why fly anything else, ever?
i have beat bugs in my tech doffed kdf cruisers, they can tank well enough and hit hard enough to participate in an extended fight with one.the trick to beating one is not to fight it on its terms, noobing it up with 4 DHC. only the bug is going to have the on target up time to make that fire often enough to be effective. slower ships wont have the on target up time. you need to evade its firepower, and unleash a torp and/or beam alpha to bust its chops in a single strike. if your lucky, that will be enough.
its still bs how powerful it is, its an 11/10 escort with ballooned stats in every way. it should have had a kdf like .83 shield mod, with a sub defiant 28k hitpoints, then the 20 turn and 5 tac consoles would be fair
A bOp can take the best jem hadar escorts ^^
Agreed tho, with two very good players, equally in skills, similar setup/weapons etc a defiant will lose versus a jemmy 1v1. Patrol escort has more chance but still outmeanvured by the bug.
Difference isnt THAT big though imo, you can still put out a very good fight not having a bug. Last time for the lulz i 1v1'ed in a Defiant vs a patrol, obviously the patrol wins because he can reliably rotate 2 epts's and you got a useless tac ensign on the defiant.
But the player in question was very good, and still it was a stalemate.
that the bug oculdnt be tanked by a good player in a cruiser or something is nonsense, even a team healer without the redicluous EptS3 and 2x RSP bull**** you can pretty much outtank the best damaging JHAS fighters.
A sci is even better he can simply nuke off the hard hitting dmg buffs. Engi sucks these days
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
It wouldn't bother me if the feds or kdf had an equivalent and they don't really. KDF ships suffer massively in hull and shields to get that kind of turn rate and they have no escort that is packing 5 tac consoles. Therein lies the problem I think, the turn rate. If the Fleet Defiant had a universal ensign instead of tac I'd be more inclined to use one. At the moment I use the Steamrunner and the Fleet Somraw for my tacs. The bug ship is like a patrol escort on steroids and I've only really had success with the above ships against them in a 1v1 situation and more often than not I lose that battle.
If the mechanics of beams were fixed it may go some way into negating the ability for escorts to simply sit on cruisers tails and hammer them, putting out some pressure dmg on them so they have to break off an attack. I grow bored of having to play engi cruisers as a dedicated healer.
Gardiner, Suval, Thran
Korvak, Raketh, Xedar, Zidow
Decis, Vesok
Oh I completely agree. MVAE is far too dependent on Beta, and honestly I don't understand why on earth Cryptic thinks it needs a 10 minute CD. It's frustrating because other consoles (and even many innates, which don't take up console space) have a third of that cooldown, often have much more powerful effects and don't actively nerf the effectiveness of your ship. I think the hull and the shield penalty are enough for something that takes up a console slot. The silly cooldown length is just excessive.
It's at least a little better than it used to be, at one time you couldn't switch maps (for any reason, incl. relogging) without losing MVAM.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples