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Please stop crusading against "foundry grinders"
eulifdavis
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
I'll try to keep this short, since I don't plan on participating in the resulting discussion. I also realize my comments here have probably already been made ad-nauseum, but I feel the need to post them anyway.
The latest iteration of nerfs against the foundry "grinders" has negatively impacted my gameplay for absolutely no benefit to yourselves. I have no interest in playing player stories for the same reason I do not participate in role-playing - your version of Star Trek is different from my version of Star Trek, and I have no desire to participate in your personal fantasies. I therefore played the foundry missions that gave me the quickest and easiest completion credit for the repeatable mission.
I need dilithium. Everyone needs dilithium. The IOR mission provided it in an easy format. What does it hurt for "grinders" to exist? See above where I said I don't want to participate in your version of Star Trek? That means I'll NEVER play the foundry story missions. I don't care how many weeks/months you spent crafting them, how many 5-star reviews they have, how much they're promoted and praised on the forums, nor whether it is a spotlight mission or not. I have no interest. Literally the only reason I played foundry missions was to get dilithium, a commodity that is increasingly difficult to obtain, despite dev claims to the contrary. Now I can't do that. Yes, "CAN'T", because long story missions with someone's Mary Sue characters are undesirable.
I'm not on a crusade against foundry stories, I just don't like them. To that end, I also don't go around 1-star reviewing the stories. I'm not in that camp. I am, however, now actively discouraging everyone who asks or comments from playing foundry missions. In my valued opinion (amongst my circle of friends), there's nothing to be gained by doing so. So if I didn't play your highly-valued (or inflated) story missions while grinders exist, and I have no interest in your Mary Sue characters, why would I suddenly begin playing your stories now? What could you have possibly gained by DRIVING PLAYERS AWAY from the foundry?
Cliff Notes: Players who want "good stories" will find them whether or not "grinders" co-habitate the same mission list. Players who just want to grind will not play the "good stories" no matter how hard you try to convince them otherwise or "force" them to. So there is nothing to gain from nerfing the "grinders" except antagonizing a very large portion of the playerbase. Griefing in an elegant form.
The latest iteration of nerfs against the foundry "grinders" has negatively impacted my gameplay for absolutely no benefit to yourselves. I have no interest in playing player stories for the same reason I do not participate in role-playing - your version of Star Trek is different from my version of Star Trek, and I have no desire to participate in your personal fantasies. I therefore played the foundry missions that gave me the quickest and easiest completion credit for the repeatable mission.
I need dilithium. Everyone needs dilithium. The IOR mission provided it in an easy format. What does it hurt for "grinders" to exist? See above where I said I don't want to participate in your version of Star Trek? That means I'll NEVER play the foundry story missions. I don't care how many weeks/months you spent crafting them, how many 5-star reviews they have, how much they're promoted and praised on the forums, nor whether it is a spotlight mission or not. I have no interest. Literally the only reason I played foundry missions was to get dilithium, a commodity that is increasingly difficult to obtain, despite dev claims to the contrary. Now I can't do that. Yes, "CAN'T", because long story missions with someone's Mary Sue characters are undesirable.
I'm not on a crusade against foundry stories, I just don't like them. To that end, I also don't go around 1-star reviewing the stories. I'm not in that camp. I am, however, now actively discouraging everyone who asks or comments from playing foundry missions. In my valued opinion (amongst my circle of friends), there's nothing to be gained by doing so. So if I didn't play your highly-valued (or inflated) story missions while grinders exist, and I have no interest in your Mary Sue characters, why would I suddenly begin playing your stories now? What could you have possibly gained by DRIVING PLAYERS AWAY from the foundry?
Cliff Notes: Players who want "good stories" will find them whether or not "grinders" co-habitate the same mission list. Players who just want to grind will not play the "good stories" no matter how hard you try to convince them otherwise or "force" them to. So there is nothing to gain from nerfing the "grinders" except antagonizing a very large portion of the playerbase. Griefing in an elegant form.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by eulifdavis on
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There is nothing to be gained from these crusades except more hate. I, for one, certainly have no desire to play your horrid fanfic and badly written TRIBBLE, and would have been content to simply ignore them in favor of content that actually serves a useful purpose.
...
I feel kinda cheated now.
Well, maybe the hate-rating will stop when someone comes up with a new type of grinding mission.
Or a way to make the old ones work again.
-Morgan.
I'm not taking side on this, but that is how I recall the whole 1-star rating got started.
That in turn caused the grinder crowd, which happens to outnumber the story crowd 100 to 1, to lashed out and give them a taste of their own medicine.
There is nothing really wrong with the grinder style missions so long as they are not exploiting the system.
AFK grinders are an exploit, but grinders like those Space Battle Royals are not. The main difference between the two is player involvement.
Let's not sink to name calling in an attempt to get our message across guys. It never works and only makes the perpetrator come off desperate.
I'm personally 50/50 on the whole Grinder issue, I like to use them but theres too many!... I dont think there will be a solution until they add Catergories to the Foundry search or have an officail rule of placing Farming: at the start of each name so people know straight away.
The real issue at hand that people keep driving around with only a mention is people that mis-use the rating system. I have played amazing storys and missions that got nearly all 4 & 5 stars however theres a few that place a 1 star for the fun of it or because their downright THICK!... harsh but we were all thinking it
Episode Four - Head Of A Needle Episode Five: The Duality of Men Episode Six - Redemption Earned
Episode Seven - Shattered Universe Episode Eight - The Gepetto Condition Episode Nine - One Room, Two Officers
Episode Ten - Beyond The Farthest Star Episode Eleven - It's OK, It Won't Hurt Episode Twelve - A Protracted Officer
Episode Thirteen - Somewhen Episode Fourteen - The Boy Who Lived Episode Fifthteen - Empathy
on personal note the whole thing is over grinding for easy money and stuff well how many of us have more then one charcter to just transfer dilthum and ec thats doing something around how the system is made 2 thats easy 2 so everyone that says grinders are not fair ur cheating by doing that 2.
so lets nerf other things
1 bound all ships and purple items to the charcter.
2 no money transfer in theaccount bank
3 no back door to transfer dilithum
4 and the biggest one a money cap on exchange price no more then plus 50% over its value
oh yes u will be upset about that stuff if they change any of this. in the end we need grinders for a simple fact becuase u put a phaser consle thing for 1.2 mill or a jem hadar ship for 88 mill
i left xbox to play on here becuase i got sick of nerfs but guess what they are here now 2
He was the first to openly suggest it but it was because this was already being done to us. It was foolish in the extreme but not unprovoked. And, it is worth noting, that pretty much every foundry author here condemned the idea at once so claiming that we launched an organized campaign is wrong. You are the only ones who have actually done this, and you continue to do it.
This is akin to saying "I had every right to beat that guy up because he talked about punching me after I kicked him in the groin."
As bad as your grammar? And who, exactly, is "ur"? You have no grounds on which to get self-righteous here. You have stolen from us. 99% of this game is nothing but grinding but that wasn't good enough for you so you decided to come and take from us the only part of the game we had and one we have put a huge amount of work into. You did this out of greed and spite--nothing more.
Plus, if you loathe the foundry so much why are you even posting here?
I think this is the most brilliant, succinct distillation of why the foundry elites are doing what they are doing: revenge (against a fabricated "enemy").
Hardly a fabrication as you are clearly an authentic enemy. I note you offer no rebuttal of the charges here. Wise, as they are true and you know it. Well, at least you spell-checked this time...
But perhaps I'm wrong. You are laying claim to moral superiority so let's see it in action. Explain to me why you are here in the Foundry forums, making statements like you have, if not to deliberately sow discord and escalate this conflict. Let's hear it.
Clint Eastwood and his chair.
The ideas of Us vs Them, Me vs You, etc. are ancient and totally non-productive.
Continue if you must , but be aware that there is an effort to end this stupid bickering and name calling and actually work toward a solution together.
Continue to "attack" (if you must). I continue to encourage those that actually want to work toward a solution to simply leave you be. (AJ , just let them be. Not worth it)
Enjoy your righteous rage.
Many of us will be elsewhere , trying to figure out how to fix things.
If you can leave the name calling and rage behind you, please join us.
This thread is being reported for baiting and trolling.
Have a nice Day
- John
You are right of course...
What that will be, I cannot say.
Do Grinders deserve a place in the Foundry? In terms of the existing structure of game play, I would say most definitely. Look at SB 24, Gorn Mine, Azure Nebula, Fleet Missions. All grinders.
This is what I believe needs to occur.
Option A:
FM & Dilithium based missions need to be separated from Foundry story line missions in terms of their reward tables.
Where the first type of mission, the "Grinder" rewards only FM, Dilithium & previous loot tables, the second "Story line" mission would reward only the previous loot tables & ultra rare high-end weapons, equipment etc on completion.
This allows all players an avenue to farm for their SB & ec's, but also sets up a healthy economy for the story authors to attract players to their missions as well. If you need FM, you head off to your favorite grinder. If you are looking for that chance to get a MK XII phaser relay, you head off to play your favorite story. Everyone is happy.
Option B:
Embassy and SB missions projects.
Most of the special projects associated with this features have been purely of an aesthetic nature.
What about, as with on New Romulus, where one unlocks missions, Cryptic introduced a few special projects that are SB-based Fleet Grinders that rewards the same as the Foundry Daily, namely 50 FM and 960 dilithium and which are repeatable as normal.
Where the STO community need to agree on, is what constitutes a valid "Grinder". Grinders need to be of the same game experience and intent as the aforementioned missions. "Console click" missions were notorious in the previous system, and we can all agree that it was abused. I would like a system that is fair. As a Foundry author, I would like to share the Foundry with fellows that respect what we stand to lose. The Foundry is something unique, something endangered. I wonder what we will be do with it for those that follow? The loot changes were not as a result of some vocal authors. The loot drop changes were a result of a irresponsible approach to what the Foundry constitutes. To push that under the carpet, and proceed to blame the next guy, is as equally irresponsible.
Until such a system is introduced, the Foundry experience is going to be one filled with bitterness and resentment for all.
I love what the Foundry has given me. The opportunity to express myself. I call that my passion.
A
There is already a two teir reward system in place. Spotlight missions get double or whatever extra reward beyond normal. The vetting is slow, but necessary. I don't think this this is an issue, it takes man hours to do this so you can see that Cryptic is already materially investment in your preferred type of mission. It is a big deal that they bother to do this and should not be discounted out of hend.
B
That is perhaps more evil than the rep system's "grind to unlock the ability to grind for an item." And very likely the missions unlocked would not be very efficient and like the Q "shell game" more annoying than fun.
What he's doing with missions Cryptic Spotlight is please the players they want, this is not a solution, is a patch to please his "friends" and create an elite cast missions.
https://www.youtube.com/user/NenfisGirfud
Anyway, I'm not against grinding per se - I (and presumable the other pro-story people) oppose grinders when they abuse the Foundry.
The Nagus Dailies, in my opinion, were excellent examples of "grinders" done right. Yes, they were short, but they were also fun to play, and on top of that, they were legitimate missions - they each had a plot (albeit simplistic ones - protect that ship from enemies, raid that secret base, go through boarding party training, etc.) and required you to accomplish a task more difficult that "click on this console here."
Today's "grinders," on the other hand, seem to be the successor to the "clickies" of old. Back then, you could just click on three consoles at ESD or on Qo'nos and -BAM!- 1440 dilithium. Cryptic then instituted the 15-minute rule to get rid of such abuses. However, I think they threw the baby out with the bathwater, as such a rule also disqualified the Nagus Dailies from the wrapper as well.
To be honest, I haven't played "Battleship Rumble Royale" or any of the other "grinder" missions (well, I think ajstoner (or another story author) has one I've played, but it did have some story and also fit into his story missions). From what I've heard, though, it seems they're just missions that a)have stuff going on for 15 minutes just to qualify and/or b)"epic" battles between massive fleets just so the player can get l00t. That, in my opinion, would count as an abuse of the Foundry.
Increase fleet mark rewards from other areas and I may move until then grinders it is.
While that is purely subjective... for instance I have no desire to ever play fanfic (yet I have enough search know-how and common sense to just overlook them without being offendid)...
What would you find an acceptable level of "de-cluttering"? The top 10 spots? The top 20? 50? Removal of all missions you don't like?
This war (and yes, it basically is a war) has taken a toll on both sides. Isn't it time we just ended it?
"Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
-Thomas Marrone
I am absolutely 2000% for a better UI. Even better if it had mod support.
And get all your loot
They just shoot right back
Cuz the exploit's gone kaput
not helpful at all
OK, I'll bite. I made comments because I felt they needed to be heard (as I said in my first post). I wanted to start a discussion, and hopefully get the spiteful story authors to understand that they aren't helping themselves or their cause at all by demanding nerfs. Players aren't going to suddenly change their minds about story missions and start playing them just because the grinders are gone. As always, they'll go find the easiest method of earning their loot/dilithium. Story missions will never be one of them.
Also, I never said I wouldn't read the thread, just that I "don't plan on participating". You managed to change those plans, by the way, hence my reply.
It's simple: CBS hasn't approved your story. I like my Star Trek to come from a single source. That means I only like what CBS signs off on (with the one exception of TAS - that can go burn in the fires of Hades). Your stories could be some of the best examples of writing in recent Star Trek history, but it doesn't change the fact that CBS didn't formally approve it, unlike every mission the devs implement. For that reason, I am not interested.
I also deliberately dropped the "Mary Sue" reference because Star Trek fan-fiction (which foundry missions are, despite any claims to the contrary) is plagued by such characters and tropes. The only way to find out whether or not a story is one of them is, as you said, to play them. I'm not going to take the time to try and sort though and filter missions when I don't want to deal with "Mary Sue" missions to begin with. It's a conscious choice on my part, but one that I know I am not even close to alone in.
My highly optimized escort could complete a particular mission in approximately 5 minutes, netting me 960 dilithium and 50 fleet marks (60 after you factor in the bonus consumable). No other mission in the game has that kind of time-spent/reward-earned ratio. Yes, most players have to spend more time in the foundry, or the mission in question wouldn't have reached the "20 minute average play time" threshold. Nonetheless, it worked for me, and I got through it quite quickly. I would run STFs in between foundry grind runs, which was a VERY efficient way for me to earn everything I needed in game.
Never played them. I freely admit that I used "clicky" grinders instead of "story" grinders. Again, effort/reward ratios, and a complete lack of interest in other players' story ideas.
Yes, they were the successor. They offered the least amount of effort to get the rewards. What you fail to realize is players will CONTINUE to find those scenarios, despite your best efforts to nerf them. This means players will CONTINUE to avoid the story missions because they take longer and/or are full of unwanted content. By nerfing grinders, you're just moving players away from the foundry towards other content instead. It doesn't make players start playing the story missions.
Missions with the "timid" creatures might have counted as abuse, but if the ships or creatures are shooting back, why do you care? More importantly, what possible justification do you have to call it abuse if the player really does have to do something to earn their loot/dilithium? Try playing the Royale Rumble sometime - it's a lot harder than you think, especially if you run it with a group.
He means that the grinders are still in the list; they actually have a challenge rating now. Battleship Royal Rumble, for instance, has always been there and drops just as good loot; make it a test missions for DPS fits and you could rake it in just as easily as easy money used to. (Sure you might go boom a couple of times, but even warehouse workers drop a crate on their foot every blue moon.)
It was the -nanny nanny boo boo- method of delivery.
So just call it a verbal tic and move on already?