Now, if somebody wanted to talk about silliness and turn rate - they'd look at Escorts/Raptors/BoPs... and say they turn too fast. That all the crew should be strapped into their seats with barf bags handy and everything else had either be bolted down, using some kind of industrial magnets, or at the very least a healthy dose of duct tape. Now that's where I'd go, if I were going to talk about issues with turn in the game - Escort sized ships turning better than fighters could before their pilots would blackout. Yep, that's where I'd plan my attack on some of the silliness of turn in the game...not that cruisers need to turn faster, but rather that escorts need to turn slower.
Like someone said before me, inertial dampers fixed this problem a while ago - back before the NX-01, in fact. Otherwise, every crewmember would be a meat pancake on the walls every time the ship used the warp engines.
Your "issues with turning in this game" are irrelevant.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I think the thing about the trinity system is that the "tank" and "dps" are balanced by toughness and fragility.
On an individual basis, the glass cannon should deal a lot of damage but also should die or be forced to retreat a lot. Over the course of an encounter, his damage graph will go up and down a lot. The tank doesn't deal a lot of damage, but doesn't die or need to retreat. Over the course of an encounter, his damage graph is a fairly steady line. Over the course of an encounter, both types should deal roughly the same amount of damage. For example, half the time the glass cannon is dealing double the damage of the tank, but the other half the time he's dealing 0 damage.
On a team basis, when they team up properly the damage becomes greater than the sum of their parts - the glass cannon suddenly loses the valleys in his damage graph, and together they deal triple their damage rather than double.
I believe that is how it's supposed to work. How it's implemented in STO is that the glass cannons don't really need to retreat, or die, which severely skews the trinity's balance.
I agree with you. The escorts in the game really don't have to respect/fear other classes in this game. And that's being said by a guy who uses all three classes.
I think the thing about the trinity system is that the "tank" and "dps" are balanced by toughness and fragility.
On an individual basis, the glass cannon should deal a lot of damage but also should die or be forced to retreat a lot. Over the course of an encounter, his damage graph will go up and down a lot. The tank doesn't deal a lot of damage, but doesn't die or need to retreat. Over the course of an encounter, his damage graph is a fairly steady line. Over the course of an encounter, both types should deal roughly the same amount of damage. For example, half the time the glass cannon is dealing double the damage of the tank, but the other half the time he's dealing 0 damage.
On a team basis, when they team up properly the damage becomes greater than the sum of their parts - the glass cannon suddenly loses the valleys in his damage graph, and together they deal triple their damage rather than double.
I believe that is how it's supposed to work. How it's implemented in STO is that the glass cannons don't really need to retreat, or die, which severely skews the trinity's balance.
I agree with you. The escorts in the game really don't have to respect/fear other classes in this game. And that's being said by a guy who uses all three classes.
I'm forced to agree as well. I have no fear when I take on targets in my KDF's destroyer (aka slower escort) - if I do die, I just respawn.
Darkjeff's right. The trinity balance is skewed in favour of escorts, and it's a problem for those who enjoy flying cruisers or sci vessels.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Not to be rude but ships do have artificial gravity along with inertial dampeners to keep crew from sufering ill effects from maneuvers at high speed and warp jumps.
To an extent - not the extent that occurs in the game.
Like someone said before me, inertial dampers fixed this problem a while ago - back before the NX-01, in fact. Otherwise, every crewmember would be a meat pancake on the walls every time the ship used the warp engines.
Your "issues with turning in this game" are irrelevant.
Again, to an extent - not the extent that occurs in the game.
Seriously - hop in a cruiser. Tada - that's what inertial dampeners help with - that maneuvering. Hell, hop in an unbuffed/ungeared escort. Tada - even that, you could easily accept that inertial dampeners could deal with that.
Now buff and gear the escort. Crew would be meat pancakes.
It's like you have no idea how fast you can make an escort turn and go...
...or maybe you do have an idea and simply do not care that it makes no sense.
You're forgetting that this is the 25th century. Starfleet has had three centuries, possibly more, to build on an inertial damper system that must have been used in Cochrane's Phoenix. Granted, it's not perfect (nothing is), but for the most part, other than the ship quakes and side-to-side motion in battle, the IDF system generally compensates without damage to the crew.
You're trying to disprove the working concept present in the whole Trek franchise. Every single ship in Star Trek, Animated Series, The Next Generation, Voyager, DS9, Enterprise, The Movies, and JJ Trek has IDF systems that compensate for sudden bursts of movement, which would usually kill crew even before the ship reached lightspeed (going by time to approach lightspeed is the usual four seconds as seen in TNG and on).
STO is no different. Sure, some of these escorts have some pretty fast turn and accel rates. I reference the USS Defiant in this case - in the finale episode, you are treated to a mundane view of the battle. In one scene, the Defiant does a loop-de-loop and shoots some Jem'Hadar fighters. The turn rate, while a little quicker in STO, is not much faster than the turn rate of the replacement USS Defiant.
Also, STO does some creative licensing, in the fact that the game's timeframe is undefined by any Trek episode. I'm sure there are improvements to the IDF system and thruster force and efficiency, just like there have been improvements on ship design, culminating in the Big-Fat-Odyssey class.
stardestroyer001, Admiral, Explorers Fury PvE/PvP Fleet | Retired PvP Player
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9 My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Where did a BoP, Escort, anything turn as fast as it can in STO?
Again, I'm not talking about the base rates. I'm not even talking about how X might boost that - how Y might boost that - how Z might boost that. I'm talking about how X, Y, & Z can boost it.
I'm talking about going from 18-20 to 40-50+ for extended periods of time.
I'm talking about an effective cap on how much turn a ship can have. I'd say that's a more logical move than trying to buff ships without a logical reason or nerfing ships because there's not a logical reason to buff the other.
There's a reason why Cruisers can only turn so much.
There's a reason why Escorts can turn that much more.
There's no reason why Escorts can turn as much as they can.
It's one thing even to double it for a short period of time.
It's another to more than double it for an extended period of time.
I'm a pretty new player, I only started playing about a month ago, and I just capped at 50 about 3 days ago. I play as tactical, and I was all about cruisers at first. They were big, had lots device slots, they weren't too bad in maneuvering, and they had some pretty decent hulls. For awhile I was enjoying the eject warp plasma ability, as I could use evasive manuvers to fly past large groups of enemies and hit them all with the ability, to enable my team to spread torpedo the TRIBBLE out of them.
But I noticed that with each advancement, the cruisers were getting slower, and slower, and slower... until I realized that my cruisers was turning comically slow by level 50. I could barely turn around! Let alone use moving combat abilities. I bought some master keys and I got the advanced mirror escort, and wow! I'm never looking back to cruisers! I'm free again, I can move and fly and actually turn to face my opponents without using two attack patterns and evasive maneuvers all at the same time.
I understand that cruisers have a lot of hull in exchange for maneuverability, but there has to be a threshold somewhere, in that becoming an immobile bunker is not very helpful, but you also can't have a flying tank with amazing handling.
All in all, I'm not familiar enough with the numbers to say that +1 turning rate will solve the problem, or create new ones, but something probably should be done.
My concern gets back to a basic faction unique playstyle. KDF was initially intended to be a hit an run playstyle w/a weak Science capability and fragile ships. Think dive bombing birds of prey in a literal sense.
The Feds are more like a wolfpack that uses endurance to wear down a target threw coordinated teamwork. They're also built to outlast an opponent in terms of defenses. It's why Fed scorts are better than KDF scorts and as follows Fed repair supports are better at their jobs even if they're in ships w/the exact same layout.
This is why even KDF cruisers are designed to manuever better. They are there to provide pressure damage while Raiders hit and run. If then need to withdraw they need to be able to move better than who they're withdrawing from.
The influx of hybrid style ships et al has blurred these lines. I'd rather not blur them any further.
[Zone] Dack@****: cowards can't take a fed 1 on 1 crinckley cowards Hahahaha you smell like flowers
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I really wish we could have a discussion involving a dev' about the whole thing, especially the state of the trinity of class of ships. It doesn't make ANY progress if they aren't listening.
I really wish we could have a discussion involving a dev' about the whole thing, especially the state of the trinity of class of ships. It doesn't make ANY progress if they aren't listening.
Cruisers don't need better turn rates, beams need to be better overall, and maybe there needs to be some torps with side launchers. Making gameplay more alike for all 3 ship types isn't really a great solution, that said all 3 types should be good.
I really wish we could have a discussion involving a dev' about the whole thing, especially the state of the trinity of class of ships. It doesn't make ANY progress if they aren't listening.
This isn't the first discussion on the matter. Like you're wishing they'd respond, they're likely wishing everybody had searched the forums. They'll never say that, though - they're just as aware of the borked Archived Post nonsense as everybody else is... but yeah, this isn't the first discussion on the matter.
I used to fly the Galaxy-X often. I really enjoyed the lance and cloak...fun toys. When they released the Fleet Excelsior I jumped into that and flew that for quite a while. Just recently I thought I would go back and fly my dreadnought for a few stf's and it was...for the lack of a better word...painful. It really sucks when you are engaging multiple enemy ships and you are focusing on one of the ships and then after it's destroyed you realize the other ship(s) have flanked you. Then you have to try and turn the beast around. Good luck with that...it's not like your in any danger of dieing with these enemies on your TRIBBLE. It's just painfully boring to sit there turning for 10 seconds just to get back into firing position. I never use my Galaxy-X anymore. I can't stand to fly anything with a turn rate under 7. I think all fed cruisers should get a +1 bump to their turn rate. It wouldn't break the semblance of ?balance? that we currently have now, but it would make these ships a lot more fun to fly.
All I can say is evasive or deuterium or Aux2ID or AP:A and learning to turn in reverse...
If its taking you 10 seconds to turn around in a fire fight, you are doing it wrong. Big ships can turn really well in reverse.
Once you get the rhythm down you can get front face when you want it.
The more it's discussed, the more some of it is coming off as a lack of piloting ability than the ship itself. Many folks aren't discussing trying to keep a target in a particular arc like an Escort...they're just discussing basic piloting things that they're doing wrong.
All I can say is evasive or deuterium or Aux2ID or AP:A and learning to turn in reverse...
If its taking you 10 seconds to turn around in a fire fight, you are doing it wrong. Big ships can turn really well in reverse.
Once you get the rhythm down you can get front face when you want it.
If you've already used evasive and or ap:a or omega then your left with only reverse turning. Which, yes I can do, (10 seconds was an exaggeration) point was that I can do it faster in the Excelsior then I can in the dreadnought which makes it much nicer to fly.
This is why even KDF cruisers are designed to manuever better. They are there to provide pressure damage while Raiders hit and run. If then need to withdraw they need to be able to move better than who they're withdrawing from.
This would be relevant if, you know, anyone actually needed to withdraw more than once or twice during an entire eSTF.
Comments
DEMAND!!!! :cool:
You missed entirely my reason as for why, nice try.
Like someone said before me, inertial dampers fixed this problem a while ago - back before the NX-01, in fact. Otherwise, every crewmember would be a meat pancake on the walls every time the ship used the warp engines.
Your "issues with turning in this game" are irrelevant.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
I agree with you. The escorts in the game really don't have to respect/fear other classes in this game. And that's being said by a guy who uses all three classes.
I'm forced to agree as well. I have no fear when I take on targets in my KDF's destroyer (aka slower escort) - if I do die, I just respawn.
Darkjeff's right. The trinity balance is skewed in favour of escorts, and it's a problem for those who enjoy flying cruisers or sci vessels.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
To an extent - not the extent that occurs in the game.
No, I pointed out where you were wrong.
Again, to an extent - not the extent that occurs in the game.
Seriously - hop in a cruiser. Tada - that's what inertial dampeners help with - that maneuvering. Hell, hop in an unbuffed/ungeared escort. Tada - even that, you could easily accept that inertial dampeners could deal with that.
Now buff and gear the escort. Crew would be meat pancakes.
It's like you have no idea how fast you can make an escort turn and go...
...or maybe you do have an idea and simply do not care that it makes no sense.
You're trying to disprove the working concept present in the whole Trek franchise. Every single ship in Star Trek, Animated Series, The Next Generation, Voyager, DS9, Enterprise, The Movies, and JJ Trek has IDF systems that compensate for sudden bursts of movement, which would usually kill crew even before the ship reached lightspeed (going by time to approach lightspeed is the usual four seconds as seen in TNG and on).
STO is no different. Sure, some of these escorts have some pretty fast turn and accel rates. I reference the USS Defiant in this case - in the finale episode, you are treated to a mundane view of the battle. In one scene, the Defiant does a loop-de-loop and shoots some Jem'Hadar fighters. The turn rate, while a little quicker in STO, is not much faster than the turn rate of the replacement USS Defiant.
Also, STO does some creative licensing, in the fact that the game's timeframe is undefined by any Trek episode. I'm sure there are improvements to the IDF system and thruster force and efficiency, just like there have been improvements on ship design, culminating in the Big-Fat-Odyssey class.
Missing the good ol' days of PvP: Legacy of Romulus to Season 9
My List of Useful Links, Recently Updated November 25 2017!
Again, I'm not talking about the base rates. I'm not even talking about how X might boost that - how Y might boost that - how Z might boost that. I'm talking about how X, Y, & Z can boost it.
I'm talking about going from 18-20 to 40-50+ for extended periods of time.
I'm talking about an effective cap on how much turn a ship can have. I'd say that's a more logical move than trying to buff ships without a logical reason or nerfing ships because there's not a logical reason to buff the other.
There's a reason why Cruisers can only turn so much.
There's a reason why Escorts can turn that much more.
There's no reason why Escorts can turn as much as they can.
It's one thing even to double it for a short period of time.
It's another to more than double it for an extended period of time.
But I noticed that with each advancement, the cruisers were getting slower, and slower, and slower... until I realized that my cruisers was turning comically slow by level 50. I could barely turn around! Let alone use moving combat abilities. I bought some master keys and I got the advanced mirror escort, and wow! I'm never looking back to cruisers! I'm free again, I can move and fly and actually turn to face my opponents without using two attack patterns and evasive maneuvers all at the same time.
I understand that cruisers have a lot of hull in exchange for maneuverability, but there has to be a threshold somewhere, in that becoming an immobile bunker is not very helpful, but you also can't have a flying tank with amazing handling.
All in all, I'm not familiar enough with the numbers to say that +1 turning rate will solve the problem, or create new ones, but something probably should be done.
The Feds are more like a wolfpack that uses endurance to wear down a target threw coordinated teamwork. They're also built to outlast an opponent in terms of defenses. It's why Fed scorts are better than KDF scorts and as follows Fed repair supports are better at their jobs even if they're in ships w/the exact same layout.
This is why even KDF cruisers are designed to manuever better. They are there to provide pressure damage while Raiders hit and run. If then need to withdraw they need to be able to move better than who they're withdrawing from.
The influx of hybrid style ships et al has blurred these lines. I'd rather not blur them any further.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
Quite true.
WORKING AS INTENDED.
-.-
This isn't the first discussion on the matter. Like you're wishing they'd respond, they're likely wishing everybody had searched the forums. They'll never say that, though - they're just as aware of the borked Archived Post nonsense as everybody else is... but yeah, this isn't the first discussion on the matter.
If its taking you 10 seconds to turn around in a fire fight, you are doing it wrong. Big ships can turn really well in reverse.
Once you get the rhythm down you can get front face when you want it.
Fleet Admiral Space Orphidian Possiblities Wizard
The more it's discussed, the more some of it is coming off as a lack of piloting ability than the ship itself. Many folks aren't discussing trying to keep a target in a particular arc like an Escort...they're just discussing basic piloting things that they're doing wrong.
If you've already used evasive and or ap:a or omega then your left with only reverse turning. Which, yes I can do, (10 seconds was an exaggeration) point was that I can do it faster in the Excelsior then I can in the dreadnought which makes it much nicer to fly.
This would be relevant if, you know, anyone actually needed to withdraw more than once or twice during an entire eSTF.