If you add +1 turn rate to all fed cruisers, then what will the appeal of owning a jem'hadar dreadnought carrier? Pretty much none. Less appeal = less master key sales. Everyone is always screaming for balancing on here without realizing that you lose the uniqueness of ships once you bring other ships closer to it in terms of performance.
all fed cruisers should have their turn rate bumped by 2. theres no reason for kdf cruisers to turn so much better. trying to think of a reason? STOP, your trying to reference canon for reasons. for game play balance there is no reason. its not like they can even use DHC/DCs anyway. they would only be able to maneuver more defensibly, their greatest weakness currently.
all fed cruisers should have their turn rate bumped by 2. theres no reason for kdf cruisers to turn so much better. trying to think of a reason? STOP, your trying to reference canon for reasons. for game play balance there is no reason. its not like they can even use DHC/DCs anyway. they would only be able to maneuver more defensibly, their greatest weakness currently.
Maybe if the Klings had parity in other aspects of the game, what you're proposing would be fair. Except, it's not because the better turn rates and better contraband drops are all we have going for us at this point. If you want to keep arguing in favor of better turn rates for feds, go ahead, but I won't be joining you as you slowly kill off the all KDf uniqueness.
If you add +1 turn rate to all fed cruisers, then what will the appeal of owning a jem'hadar dreadnought carrier? Pretty much none. Less appeal = less master key sales. Everyone is always screaming for balancing on here without realizing that you lose the uniqueness of ships once you bring other ships closer to it in terms of performance.
You mean other than it being a Dominion ship and a carrier?
The Jem'Hadar Dreadnought flies and turns like an Exploration cruiser despite being wayyyyy bigger than "twice the size". The Dreadnought is nimble as hell for a carrier class ship.
All Fed cruisers need a turn rate boost of 1. No exceptions.
It should look like this:
Cruiser: 10
Advanced Heavy Cruiser: 9
Heavy Cruiser: 9
Star Cruiser: 8
Assault Cruiser: 8
Exploration Cruiser: 7
Ok, why are you whining? You just answered your OWN question lol. The Dread is NOT a fed carrier OR ship, therefore it has it's OWN set of rules. The Dominion do not build their ships like the feds, nor do they have the same technology. It has better turn rate, good for the Dominion, they made a carrier with a better turn rate than the feds. Don't make demands like this agian please, go soak yourself in the Caves of Mak'ala.
LOL, all those Galaxy experts that say the turn rate is fine...how many of you are actually playing that ship end game ? :rolleyes: There is no reason, players should be punished for playing this iconic ship of TNG franchise.
Is enough that captain Geko hates that ship and does everything possible to make it as gimped as possible. Just the fact he did give Fleet Negh'Var universal ensing and Galaxy does not have it, says something about his agenda.
"Cryptic Studio’s Jack Emmert (2010): Microtransactions are the biggest bunch of nonsense. I like paying one fee and not worrying about it – like my cellphone. The world’s biggest MMO isn’t item based, even though the black market item GDP is bigger than Russia … microtransactions make me want to die.”
Sorry I do not mean to offend but this is what I am seeing
People in favor of the op, "I don't have the dreadnought but I want the ships I do have to be buffed"
people against it, "Don't see what the big deal is, why are people complaining and begging for everything to be buffed when the way the devs will swing is the nerfing of the dreadnought"
that's what I am seeing here. again sorry but its hard to piece it without that filter.
Wow. I think we hit all the main forum arguments in this thread.
Cruiser vs Escorts.
Fed Cruisers vs KDF Battlecruisers.
Feds vs KDF.
DHCs/DCs vs BAs.
Cruiser Turn Rate Buff.
Now my 2 biased ECs. And biased because I have no qualms about admitting I am. Cruisers do need a slight turn rate buff, and DDIS was correct that 2 would do nicely. HOWEVER I believe that NO fed cruiser should exceed a turn rate of 10. And then we go to Roach, who comments that BAs need to be looked at, and I also agree with that, especially the drain mechanic behind them. I also still support the return of the 20% damage they lost. And a SLIGHT accuracy bonus. As for the cruisers vs escorts? Hell there are dozens of threads about just that, so no need to answer that. Cruisers vs BATTLEcruisers? I think I just put up my comment with how I typed that in. Fed vs KDF? Who cares? They both stink, just in different ways. DHCs vs BAs? See cruiser threads. Cruiser turn rate buff? See cruiser threads.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Ok, why are you whining? You just answered your OWN question lol. The Dread is NOT a fed carrier OR ship, therefore it has it's OWN set of rules. The Dominion do not build their ships like the feds, nor do they have the same technology. It has better turn rate, good for the Dominion, they made a carrier with a better turn rate than the feds. Don't make demands like this agian please, go soak yourself in the Caves of Mak'ala.
If you're going to call canon into account here, let me remind you that if we paid any attention to canon or ship movement rules, the entire fed fleet would move like escorts, the GalX included.
The Klingons.... well actually the klingons wouldn't really experience much of a change.
If this thing doesn't have enough mass, then it's hull should be less than what it is. It should be as easy to crack as a potato chip in space.
The Atrox has less hull than the Ody but turns worse. Hull strength doesn't necessarily equate to mass either. In our lifetime already, we've seen many cases of more durable but lighter materials.
If you're going to call canon into account here, let me remind you that if we paid any attention to canon or ship movement rules, the entire fed fleet would move like escorts, the GalX included.
Um...no. No starship in the shows or movies turns like ships can in STO.
edit: Check out DS9: "The Way of the Warrior" for some Defiant vs. BoP action. Then grab a Defiant and a BoP in STO... um...yeah...
come to see post, go though several that seem to just be arguments on peoples agendas, save that for politics folks, everyone here has an agenda.
Now back to the turn rate thing...
Yes, cruisers should get +1 to turn, I never saw anything in the shows that said they had to go around making a full sector U-Turn, hell the Galaxy in TNG could just about whip itself around in a tight circle.
Give everyone a +1 to turn (like suggested) call it a quality of life upgrade, you know, for all the junk you made everyone go through with sector travel back in the old days (boy carrier life was fun then..turn? no forget about it..)
Or you could put it on the fleet refits or something. Either way its about time to notice you guys are kinda lopsided in your ship balancing..
Now my 2 biased ECs. And biased because I have no qualms about admitting I am. Cruisers do need a slight turn rate buff, and DDIS was correct that 2 would do nicely. HOWEVER I believe that NO fed cruiser should exceed a turn rate of 10. And then we go to Roach, who comments that BAs need to be looked at, and I also agree with that, especially the drain mechanic behind them. I also still support the return of the 20% damage they lost. And a SLIGHT accuracy bonus. As for the cruisers vs escorts? Hell there are dozens of threads about just that, so no need to answer that. Cruisers vs BATTLEcruisers? I think I just put up my comment with how I typed that in. Fed vs KDF? Who cares? They both stink, just in different ways. DHCs vs BAs? See cruiser threads. Cruiser turn rate buff? See cruiser threads.
Basically you're asking for ways for cruisers to kill escorts while escorts will hardly be able to destroy a good cruiser. A good cruiser is cyclying EPTS II and III, TSS II, with of course a RSP or an extend shield with the right doffs, and it's extremely hard to kill something like that, unless you have 2-3 excellent escort captains working in tandem and not being harrassed.
Currently in a pvp match, the first targets are escorts and not cruisers, and cruisers are targeted only when they are the last ones alive on the other team, because it requires the concerted efforts of a whole team to take one down. They really don't need DPS while being almost unvulnerable and not harrassed.
The only good way to get rid of a good cruiser in pvp is also tractor beam repulsors, because his low turnrate will prevent him from getting back in the battle too soon. If you buff dps and maneuvrability you get ships with no flaws, and such a gameplay has no interest.
Furthermore, if you buff beams you also buff science ships, and believe me, my main is a sci flying a vesta and i know it's a bad idea, because scis have great debuff and hold abilities and will likely be the ones getting the most from such a buff. :P
Basically you're asking for ways for cruisers to kill escorts while escorts will hardly be able to destroy a good cruiser. A good cruiser is cyclying EPTS II and III, TSS II, with of course a RSP or an extend shield with the right doffs, and it's extremely hard to kill something like that, unless you have 2-3 excellent escort captains working in tandem and not being harrassed.
Currently in a pvp match, the first targets are escorts and not cruisers, and cruisers are targeted only when they are the last ones alive on the other team, because it requires the concerted efforts of a whole team to take one down. They really don't need DPS while being almost unvulnerable and not harrassed.
The only good way to get rid of a good cruiser in pvp is also tractor beam repulsors, because his low turnrate will prevent him from getting back in the battle too soon. If you buff dps and maneuvrability you get ships with no flaws, and such a gameplay has no interest.
Furthermore, if you buff beams you also buff science ships, and believe me, my main is a sci flying a vesta and i know it's a bad idea, because scis have great debuff and hold abilities and will likely be the ones getting the most from such a buff. :P
The only catch here (other than my blatantly obvious bias which I admitted at the start of the post) is that you cannot buff one without the other. You cannot buff cruisers without buffing sci. You cannot buff either without buffing escorts. Balance dictates that there be balance. And balance dictates that one cannot simply go around buffing things on a whim without first considering every other ship and what it can and cannot do.
As such, I simply put in small adjustments that can be made to a cruiser arsenal to make them somewhat more effective. However, if you asked me to do the same thing with escorts and/or science ships, I would be happy to oblige. After all, as the Deferi say, the balance must be maintained.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Currently in a pvp match, the first targets are escorts and not cruisers, and cruisers are targeted only when they are the last ones alive on the other team, because it requires the concerted efforts of a whole team to take one down. They really don't need DPS while being almost unvulnerable and not harrassed.
That's um...well...not the complete story on why a cruiser would fit in where it does in target calling/target priority.
And to add insult to injury, the Imperial Star Destroyer probably out turns FED cruisers by quite a margin...
Joking aside, the turn rates for some FED cruisers are very bad. Take the Odyssey as an example. Here we have the best ship currently in Starfleet service, and yet it's turn radius is very bad. I seriously doubt that Starfleet would make the flagship turn so badly taking into account all the enemies out there.... It should not take an entire sector block just to turn the thing around, should it???
So yeah, something needs to be done about the turn rates. Heck, even the TOS Constitution ship in game turns better the the Odyssey, and the Constitution ship is an old ship, yet it has better turn rate...
Go figure...
Watch everything starting in '66 through now.
Then look at the turn rate in STO.
Tada.
I was referring to the Okuda/Jefferies explanation of why they needed to make Star Trek have inertial damping technology; it prevents the crew from turning into chunky salsa when they go to warp or do any other super-high force maneuver.
As a Science main, I'm for boosting only Fed cruisers +1 turn. Then/if this proves to make cruisers "too tough" do we apply the +1 across the rest of the board...
I'm eventually gonna make a full blown post about this, but I'm gonna say only one thing in here. The needs of balancing PvP and PvE are ridiculously different right now, mainly because of one factor - PvP opponents use 17 skills, PvE opponents use 2-3 skills and have ludicrous shields/hull to make up for the other 15.
Oh, and for those who say the current levels are "fine", it's because thyey've adapted to surviving with them. Can I survive PvE with the chintzy turn-rate of the Gal-X right now? Yeah. Will it work better in PvE and maybe PvP if it was +1 turn without "blowing up" PvP? As another game I used to play sums it up: "The only valid test: Combat"...
And for completeness, I want to eventually try PvP, but as of right now I feel the imbalances/lack of training/inability to hit a boot camp/role issues for Sciences is my primary hold-back, way too many people make it feel like I can't "wizard" in PvP - aka have enough offensive powers to actually kill people in a science ship, and I don't want to play with a role of "shove the cruiser to the corner so us escorts can kill"... So my PvP knowledge is hideously screwed...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
I was referring to the Okuda/Jefferies explanation of why they needed to make Star Trek have inertial damping technology; it prevents the crew from turning into chunky salsa when they go to warp or do any other super-high force maneuver.
Yeah, but while Inertial Dampening "explains" the 0 to Warp...it doesn't do anything for Star Trek Shake. The way ships move in STO is more akin to Shake than 0 to Warp...that's really just the gist of what I'm trying to say.
The way escorts turn...well, U.S.S Cuisinart anybody?
I need to be clear on something with this, mind you - I went out for a smoke to think through the example I wanted to give when I realized that what I'm trying to say may not be clear.
It's not the base turn rates. It's how high they can be pumped through gear and abilities. That's where you're going to be hosing the crew off the walls. It's more about capping how high it can go than lowering what the base rate is.
I love how the OP only mentioned increasing Fed cruiser turnrates... that Dread is usable by KDF... increase KDF battlecruiser and carrier turnrates too!
I love how the OP only mentioned increasing Fed cruiser turnrates... that Dread is usable by KDF... increase KDF battlecruiser and carrier turnrates too!
With the exception of the bortas they are all higher to begin with. He suggests making them more equal.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
With the exception of the bortas they are all higher to begin with. He suggests making them more equal.
That's my point... this thread is nothing more than another attempt to take away any uniqueness of the KDF... FED's already took cloaks and carriers... now they want to eliminate the slight maneuverability bonus of the KDF battlecruisers too!
That's my point... this thread is nothing more than another attempt to take away any uniqueness of the KDF... FED's already took cloaks and carriers... now they want to eliminate the slight maneuverability bonus of the KDF battlecruisers too!
.... and how do you feel about the kdf getting science ships?
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Why do people even bother posting threads asking for playability of ships to be improved? They all seem to end with everyone having a go at one another...
As I read this it was not an attempt to take anything away from anyone but to make a point about what is likely the biggest ship in the game turning as fast as something far lighter...
Why do people even bother posting threads asking for playability of ships to be improved? They all seem to end with everyone having a go at one another...
Welcome to Internet forums, where you are right and everyone else is wrong...
Why do people even bother posting threads asking for playability of ships to be improved? They all seem to end with everyone having a go at one another...
As I read this it was not an attempt to take anything away from anyone but to make a point about what is likely the biggest ship in the game turning as fast as something far lighter...
Unfortunately there is a large number of players who seem to think the game and star trek belongs to them. And these people go find a high horse and sit atop it and scream bloody murder if you even whisper somthing against their beliefs.
But...thats ok...because no one listens to them anyway.
As a time traveller, Am I supposed to pack underwear or underwhen?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
The Jem'Hadar Dreadnought flies and turns like an Exploration cruiser despite being wayyyyy bigger than "twice the size". The Dreadnought is nimble as hell for a carrier class ship.
All Fed cruisers need a turn rate boost of 1. No exceptions.
It should look like this:
Cruiser: 10
Advanced Heavy Cruiser: 9
Heavy Cruiser: 9
Star Cruiser: 8
Assault Cruiser: 8
Exploration Cruiser: 7
oh please, fed cruisers turning 2 better does nothing to the kdf and takes nothing away from them. once they all have 10 or beter turn rate and can use DHCs then we can talk about the kdf losing something unique.
of course the bortas, being a fed cruiser clone more then anything, should get the same bump in turn
oh please, fed cruisers turning 2 better does nothing to the kdf and takes nothing away from them. once they all have 10 or beter turn rate and can use DHCs then we can talk about the kdf losing something unique.
of course the bortas, being a fed cruiser clone more then anything, should get the same bump in turn
I would agree with that.
"..and like children playing after sunset, we were surrounded by darkness." -Ruri Hoshino
Comments
Maybe if the Klings had parity in other aspects of the game, what you're proposing would be fair. Except, it's not because the better turn rates and better contraband drops are all we have going for us at this point. If you want to keep arguing in favor of better turn rates for feds, go ahead, but I won't be joining you as you slowly kill off the all KDf uniqueness.
You mean other than it being a Dominion ship and a carrier?
Ok, why are you whining? You just answered your OWN question lol. The Dread is NOT a fed carrier OR ship, therefore it has it's OWN set of rules. The Dominion do not build their ships like the feds, nor do they have the same technology. It has better turn rate, good for the Dominion, they made a carrier with a better turn rate than the feds. Don't make demands like this agian please, go soak yourself in the Caves of Mak'ala.
Is enough that captain Geko hates that ship and does everything possible to make it as gimped as possible. Just the fact he did give Fleet Negh'Var universal ensing and Galaxy does not have it, says something about his agenda.
People in favor of the op, "I don't have the dreadnought but I want the ships I do have to be buffed"
people against it, "Don't see what the big deal is, why are people complaining and begging for everything to be buffed when the way the devs will swing is the nerfing of the dreadnought"
that's what I am seeing here. again sorry but its hard to piece it without that filter.
Cruiser vs Escorts.
Fed Cruisers vs KDF Battlecruisers.
Feds vs KDF.
DHCs/DCs vs BAs.
Cruiser Turn Rate Buff.
Now my 2 biased ECs. And biased because I have no qualms about admitting I am. Cruisers do need a slight turn rate buff, and DDIS was correct that 2 would do nicely. HOWEVER I believe that NO fed cruiser should exceed a turn rate of 10. And then we go to Roach, who comments that BAs need to be looked at, and I also agree with that, especially the drain mechanic behind them. I also still support the return of the 20% damage they lost. And a SLIGHT accuracy bonus. As for the cruisers vs escorts? Hell there are dozens of threads about just that, so no need to answer that. Cruisers vs BATTLEcruisers? I think I just put up my comment with how I typed that in. Fed vs KDF? Who cares? They both stink, just in different ways. DHCs vs BAs? See cruiser threads. Cruiser turn rate buff? See cruiser threads.
If you're going to call canon into account here, let me remind you that if we paid any attention to canon or ship movement rules, the entire fed fleet would move like escorts, the GalX included.
The Klingons.... well actually the klingons wouldn't really experience much of a change.
Watch everything starting in '66 through now.
Then look at the turn rate in STO.
Tada.
The Atrox has less hull than the Ody but turns worse. Hull strength doesn't necessarily equate to mass either. In our lifetime already, we've seen many cases of more durable but lighter materials.
Um...no. No starship in the shows or movies turns like ships can in STO.
edit: Check out DS9: "The Way of the Warrior" for some Defiant vs. BoP action. Then grab a Defiant and a BoP in STO... um...yeah...
Now back to the turn rate thing...
Yes, cruisers should get +1 to turn, I never saw anything in the shows that said they had to go around making a full sector U-Turn, hell the Galaxy in TNG could just about whip itself around in a tight circle.
Give everyone a +1 to turn (like suggested) call it a quality of life upgrade, you know, for all the junk you made everyone go through with sector travel back in the old days (boy carrier life was fun then..turn? no forget about it..)
Or you could put it on the fleet refits or something. Either way its about time to notice you guys are kinda lopsided in your ship balancing..
Basically you're asking for ways for cruisers to kill escorts while escorts will hardly be able to destroy a good cruiser. A good cruiser is cyclying EPTS II and III, TSS II, with of course a RSP or an extend shield with the right doffs, and it's extremely hard to kill something like that, unless you have 2-3 excellent escort captains working in tandem and not being harrassed.
Currently in a pvp match, the first targets are escorts and not cruisers, and cruisers are targeted only when they are the last ones alive on the other team, because it requires the concerted efforts of a whole team to take one down. They really don't need DPS while being almost unvulnerable and not harrassed.
The only good way to get rid of a good cruiser in pvp is also tractor beam repulsors, because his low turnrate will prevent him from getting back in the battle too soon. If you buff dps and maneuvrability you get ships with no flaws, and such a gameplay has no interest.
Furthermore, if you buff beams you also buff science ships, and believe me, my main is a sci flying a vesta and i know it's a bad idea, because scis have great debuff and hold abilities and will likely be the ones getting the most from such a buff. :P
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
The only catch here (other than my blatantly obvious bias which I admitted at the start of the post) is that you cannot buff one without the other. You cannot buff cruisers without buffing sci. You cannot buff either without buffing escorts. Balance dictates that there be balance. And balance dictates that one cannot simply go around buffing things on a whim without first considering every other ship and what it can and cannot do.
As such, I simply put in small adjustments that can be made to a cruiser arsenal to make them somewhat more effective. However, if you asked me to do the same thing with escorts and/or science ships, I would be happy to oblige. After all, as the Deferi say, the balance must be maintained.
That's um...well...not the complete story on why a cruiser would fit in where it does in target calling/target priority.
Joking aside, the turn rates for some FED cruisers are very bad. Take the Odyssey as an example. Here we have the best ship currently in Starfleet service, and yet it's turn radius is very bad. I seriously doubt that Starfleet would make the flagship turn so badly taking into account all the enemies out there.... It should not take an entire sector block just to turn the thing around, should it???
So yeah, something needs to be done about the turn rates. Heck, even the TOS Constitution ship in game turns better the the Odyssey, and the Constitution ship is an old ship, yet it has better turn rate...
Go figure...
I'm eventually gonna make a full blown post about this, but I'm gonna say only one thing in here. The needs of balancing PvP and PvE are ridiculously different right now, mainly because of one factor - PvP opponents use 17 skills, PvE opponents use 2-3 skills and have ludicrous shields/hull to make up for the other 15.
Oh, and for those who say the current levels are "fine", it's because thyey've adapted to surviving with them. Can I survive PvE with the chintzy turn-rate of the Gal-X right now? Yeah. Will it work better in PvE and maybe PvP if it was +1 turn without "blowing up" PvP? As another game I used to play sums it up: "The only valid test: Combat"...
And for completeness, I want to eventually try PvP, but as of right now I feel the imbalances/lack of training/inability to hit a boot camp/role issues for Sciences is my primary hold-back, way too many people make it feel like I can't "wizard" in PvP - aka have enough offensive powers to actually kill people in a science ship, and I don't want to play with a role of "shove the cruiser to the corner so us escorts can kill"... So my PvP knowledge is hideously screwed...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
Yeah, but while Inertial Dampening "explains" the 0 to Warp...it doesn't do anything for Star Trek Shake. The way ships move in STO is more akin to Shake than 0 to Warp...that's really just the gist of what I'm trying to say.
The way escorts turn...well, U.S.S Cuisinart anybody?
I need to be clear on something with this, mind you - I went out for a smoke to think through the example I wanted to give when I realized that what I'm trying to say may not be clear.
It's not the base turn rates. It's how high they can be pumped through gear and abilities. That's where you're going to be hosing the crew off the walls. It's more about capping how high it can go than lowering what the base rate is.
With the exception of the bortas they are all higher to begin with. He suggests making them more equal.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
That's my point... this thread is nothing more than another attempt to take away any uniqueness of the KDF... FED's already took cloaks and carriers... now they want to eliminate the slight maneuverability bonus of the KDF battlecruisers too!
.... and how do you feel about the kdf getting science ships?
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
As I read this it was not an attempt to take anything away from anyone but to make a point about what is likely the biggest ship in the game turning as fast as something far lighter...
Welcome to Internet forums, where you are right and everyone else is wrong...
Unfortunately there is a large number of players who seem to think the game and star trek belongs to them. And these people go find a high horse and sit atop it and scream bloody murder if you even whisper somthing against their beliefs.
But...thats ok...because no one listens to them anyway.
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
Not everyone else is wrong. As long as they agree with me, they can enjoy being right as well!
Can we add the atrox to this, please?
LOL. Don't worry they know who they are.:D And as far as I've seen you arent one of them:)
Not everything you see on the internet is true - Abraham Lincoln
Occidere populo et effercio confractus
of course the bortas, being a fed cruiser clone more then anything, should get the same bump in turn
I would agree with that.