I'd be happy to help anyone I can. (sorry it took a while to respond, I didn't know this had become more active as of late.)
In regards to applying this to a cruiser, a cruiser would be setup somewhat differently considering its slow turn rate. In such a case, dual cannons may not be appropriate as their firingt arc is only 45 degrees. You will spend far less time in that 45-[degree sweet spot then say an escort would. I would be happy to put together something with my recommendations though.
Hey thanks for the reply,
I've been running your build as a Klingon Engineer using a bird-of-prey variety. The PC Eng. shield buff skills help with survivability, although I sacrifice APA as a result of not being a Tac. Right now, I'm working on adapting the build to the Lifetime Subscriber Chimera ship, but I'm not quite there yet on my Fed Eng.
I've been running your build as a Klingon Engineer using a bird-of-prey variety. The PC Eng. shield buff skills help with survivability, although I sacrifice APA as a result of not being a Tac. Right now, I'm working on adapting the build to the Lifetime Subscriber Chimera ship, but I'm not quite there yet on my Fed Eng.
I guess I didn't consider the use of it in a BoP, especially by an engineer. I tried the B'Rel as an engineer, and it just felt strange. I always thought of BoP's as the ultimate escort ship, but something just felt off. I talked to other people who had been playing KDF for a while,and apparently it's heavily used by Sci characters because of it's universal slots and maneuvarability. There are plenty of dirty little tricks you can use in a B'Rel with it's advanced battle cloak. Staying cloaked while dropping Tricobalt mines, grav wells, warp plasma, etc. All of those things can be used while cloaked as long as it's not firing energy weapons.
I'll put together a BoP build too, that might be kind fun. On my tac, I've settled into my Guramba siege destroyer nicely, and have moved into the Chel'Grett on my engineer. I just keveled up a KDF Sci and am looking forward to using my Kar'Fi with it. The Kar'Fi worked fairly well with my engineer as well.
I guess I didn't consider the use of it in a BoP, especially by an engineer. I tried the B'Rel as an engineer, and it just felt strange. I always thought of BoP's as the ultimate escort ship, but something just felt off. I talked to other people who had been playing KDF for a while,and apparently it's heavily used by Sci characters because of it's universal slots and maneuvarability. There are plenty of dirty little tricks you can use in a B'Rel with it's advanced battle cloak. Staying cloaked while dropping Tricobalt mines, grav wells, warp plasma, etc. All of those things can be used while cloaked as long as it's not firing energy weapons.
I'll put together a BoP build too, that might be kind fun. On my tac, I've settled into my Guramba siege destroyer nicely, and have moved into the Chel'Grett on my engineer. I just keveled up a KDF Sci and am looking forward to using my Kar'Fi with it. The Kar'Fi worked fairly well with my engineer as well.
Indeed, the bird-of-prey and its successor classes are quite fun to play. They have a bunch of little tricks that make some otherwise semi-worthless items and skills very practical across a variety of classes.
It's pretty worthless I would imagine, as I bought the Guramba shortly after getting the BoP and fell in love with it. However I'm now curious to take it out and play with it a bit. I've seen some people with some cool BoP setups.
Some punk in a Mirror Universe Assault Cruiser just challenge my Armitage-class to a 1v1. I was running your build. He had no idea what he got himself into. It was quite fun!
Yeah, (while i don't want this thread to take a fork down the way of PvP because there's so many variables.) With an escort, the main difference will be a shift towards Rapid-Fire3 and HY3 rather than Scatter Volley 3 and TS3. This is because you have to do heavy spike damage to take someone out. If you spread that damage with Scatter volley and torp spread, a person will heal that damage where as a NPC will not.
I would still like to find some controlled comparisons of DHC's vs. DC's.
DHC's
+ 2x damage (Same DPS due to lower rate of fire)
+ Bonus CritD
- Additional power drain
- 50% rate of fire vs DC's. (lower chance to proc)
I was hoping there might be atleast SOME small modification to the mirror universe ships. Possible an extra console slot somewhere, or an extra boff ability, a console...something... What sucks is I can't really use either now. I like the patrol escort and I like the way it looks. I don't like the advanced escort, and don't like the way it looks. So with those ships, I can either use the advanced escort which I dont like, but like the way the mirror one looks (because it looks like a patrol escort) or use the patrol escort which I like, (but don't like the way it looks because it looks like the advanced escort)...It's hell...
tac. consoles:
4x rare XI antiproton mag
1x very rare XI plasma projectile
atm i have 7k+ encDPS
ill try to switch 1 DHC with hyper plasma torpedo and then will use 3x antiproton mag and 2x plasma projectile for tac. consoles
will check my encDPS then
this build is just for STFs!
Please keep in mind that I stated in the original thread, that the DPS term was being used loosely and not meaning a mathematical calculation of DPS. There are other skills that you could use to get more damage out of your ship in short bursts such as Emergency Power to Weapons, but you would be giving up a good amount of survivability for it. , but you would be giving up a lot of survivability, and it has always been my thought that you can't do any damage if you're dead.
You can also see how you like the feel of using 2xDC's/1xDHC/1Torp. When using this, I like the way the cannon fire seems to flow. It seems less "sputtery" and "choppy" and more like a constant stream. (It could just be me)
I would also say haviing the omega plasma torpedo and hyper-[plasma torpedo, it really ups the value of High Yield. Since getting those torpedo's I've switched to using HY2 rather than a second attack pattern.
High Yield1/ High Yield2/ Torp Spread 3/ Scatter Volley 3
Tac. Team1/ Attack Pattern Beta 1/ Rapid Fire 2
On another I went with
High Yield1/ Rapid Fire 1/ Torp Spread 3/ Scatter Volley 3
Tac. Team1/ Attack Pattern Beta 1/ High Yield 3
You'll see the builds are essentially the same focusing on cannon and torpedo AOE attacks, with a smaller focus on standard attacks like HY and rapid fire.
That actually is quite similar to what I would use for an advanced escort setup. I'm curious what those science consoles are that you have in there. I'm not sure I've seen them. There were some changes I would make to the point setup, but nothing major. In regards to the boff skills, I had just added Scatter Volley3 in the Cmdr slot rather than RF3 for additional AOE to go with the TS3. I also tend to go for the dual-cannons vs. dual heavy.
I am liking the bonuses of the fleet advanced escort with the 5 tactical consoles and the additional universal ensign slot.
I'm in a small fleet and people tend to want to build it in spurts. (getting frustrating). I'd like to get a fleet patrol escort. I have the Jem, heavy escort carrier, temporal destroyer, defiant, advanced, escort and patrol escort. I still think the patrol escort may be my favorite. Especially with the Maelstrom skin.
I'm curious what those science consoles are that you have in there. I'm not sure I've seen them.
The console is in the doff image for the energy weapon build. They do +30 to emitters, +9% plasma energy damage and -60% threat.
The other one is the Zero-Point Energy Conduit and since I am running the Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher I get the 2 set bonus of Plasma Conductive Circuitry.
Plasma Conductive Circuitry
+7.6% Plasma Damage
+15.2 Starship Electro-Plasma System
So the 5 plasma infusers 2 sci consoles with damage and a 2 piece set bonus means my plasma damage is 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 9% + 9% + 7.6% for about 175.6% plasma damage minus the usual stacking reductions
I will explain this, as there is the stereotypical newb (which has gotten to be a running joke among experienced escort flyers) who insists on putting a "beam array" in the rear, "so I can do more damage when I turn", or to a lesser extent, a dual beam bank in front.
I wanted to clarify to said newb that the single beam on the back has nothing todo with dps. It started out as a way for the more creative and/or sci pilots to deliver one of the 4 TSSIII debuffs such as Target SubSystem Shields III. Now weather or not it is effective in STFs I can only say that if the Tac cube gets hit with TSSWIII everybody will have an easier time staying alive.
P.S. I just got the Jem'Hadar Dreadnought w/ the Jem'Hadar attack ship fighters. (unfortunately I got it just before shard went down for maint.) I will play around with that and let you guys know what I find. I'll wait for prices to come down on the heavy escort carrier and try out the "Fleet Maneuver Gamma". I was also able to use my current Maelstrom skin on my mirror advanced escort, so I'm pretty happy about that as well. I'm going ot play with some different builds for my Jem Dreadnought now. I'll post a couple ideas once I'm done in a bit.
I had found this as someone posted it in another thread. It may be the evidence needed in the DHC vs DC debate. According to this, it appears that despite the faster firing rate, the DC's do not have a better chance to proc. It also appears that the 10% CrtD bonus outweighs the +20% energy drain from the DHC's. See link below.
Youget bridge officers free as you level up, as well as from doff missions. Most of the ones I use are my unique bridge officers i.e. photonic science, borg science, borg engineer, anroid enigneer, reman science, breen tactical, Jem'Hadar tactical, Aenar and a couple humans and efficient saurians. You can get bridge officers cheap on the exchange.
Please keep in mind that I stated in the original thread, that the DPS term was being used loosely and not meaning a mathematical calculation of DPS. There are other skills that you could use to get more damage out of your ship in short bursts such as Emergency Power to Weapons, but you would be giving up a good amount of survivability for it. , but you would be giving up a lot of survivability, and it has always been my thought that you can't do any damage if you're dead.
You can also see how you like the feel of using 2xDC's/1xDHC/1Torp. When using this, I like the way the cannon fire seems to flow. It seems less "sputtery" and "choppy" and more like a constant stream. (It could just be me)
/bluntness 1
You need to add a disclaimer that DC's are inferior due to power drain mechanics any time you mistakenly advocate their use.
Even if you refuse to wrap your head around the reality of the weapon you owe it to the new players who look to you for guidance to at least advise them to examine the issue for themselves.
Otherwise the thread title should be "How to spec your Escort so you like the firing animation."
/bluntess 0
Sorry it was harsh, but you are inviting new players coming to you for guidance so the bar is high for accurate information.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
How are DC's inferior due to power drain mechanics, and compared to what? Please include any recorded data comparisons that you may have as well.
Also in regards to the second part of the "quote",that was a discussion response prior to the DC vs DHC data comparison being brought to light on 2/8/13.
DC recommendations in the OP were removed when there was finally some scientific evidence brought forward in the DC vs DHC debate proving that DHC's provided more damage. While I am happy to do that, I will not go back and change every post, but I will note updates as they come about as I did in post #113. The biggest thing that came forward, I believe in that was that the higher firing rate of the DC's does not double the chance of a proc as widely believed. As there was nothing aside from the data link that I had found (and eventually posted), there was no way for anyone to have KNOWN that DHC's had a higher damage output. Not to mention, the damage difference is quite small, however it is there, so it must be mentioned.
Just wondering....... 4 torp vs 4 dhc what is the dmg difference..
im a tac officer in a mirror advance escort. but i guess it wouldn't make a difference as long as im running escort.
cause if torps have higher dps than cannons or vice versa wouldn't it be obvious to go full torp/dhc build for the highest dps instead of mixing it????
Cannons have higher "DPS" than torpedo's. This is why some people will use 4 dual heavy cannons on the front of their escort rather than 3 DHC's and a torpedo. I think it' somewhat misguided personally, because with a modifier like HY2/3 or torp spread3, the spike damage can be devastating. especially against an un-shielded hull.
Dude, you can insist on recorded data or you can use your own eyes. The greater number of shots from DCs means that they take longer to finish the firing portion of their cycle, and therefore have a greater portion of that cycle going on with weapon power at lower levels from being drained. Plus inherent CritD on DHCs. Don't be dense.
Weapon flavor procs are per cycle. DEM and Tet Glider are per shot. Those two benefit from higher shot rate. It is known. Bort said it but it's been archived. This is basic stuff. It is known.
_______________ CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that? Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
How are DC's inferior due to power drain mechanics, and compared to what? Please include any recorded data comparisons that you may have as well.
Also in regards to the second part of the "quote",that was a discussion response prior to the DC vs DHC data comparison being brought to light on 2/8/13.
DC recommendations in the OP were removed when there was finally some scientific evidence brought forward in the DC vs DHC debate proving that DHC's provided more damage. While I am happy to do that, I will not go back and change every post, but I will note updates as they come about as I did in post #113. The biggest thing that came forward, I believe in that was that the higher firing rate of the DC's does not double the chance of a proc as widely believed. As there was nothing aside from the data link that I had found (and eventually posted), there was no way for anyone to have KNOWN that DHC's had a higher damage output. Not to mention, the damage difference is quite small, however it is there, so it must be mentioned.
If the player's ship uses the Omega Set Tetryon Glider, DC's will drain shields twice as fast over DHC's since that mechanic is hit-count-based. Otherwise, DHC's will out-damage DC's because of the extra 10% critical severity.
BTW, in light of the most recent Romulan weapons and gear, plasma now has the highest DPS output at this current patch due to the new Embassy plasma-infused science consoles. The Hyperplasma launcher can drop multiple shield-ignoring plasma fire stacks on enemy targets. The new Experimental beam array is also quite nasty -- using its hyperflux firing mode with FoMM and AP-Beta3, I watched an ESTF Negh'var and Cubes literally melt in seconds.
This is the Breen warpship build that I presently run in ESTF's and Fleet actions:
Ship Gear: Full Borg Space Set
-Weapons-
Fore = 2 Plasma DHC's + 1 Romulan Experimental Beam Array + 1 Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Aft = 3 Plasma Turrets + 1 Kinetic Cutting Beam
Devices = Red Matter Capacitor, Subspace Field Modulator
Consoles: Tachyokinetic Converter, Rule 62 Multipurpose Combat Console, Borg Assimilated Universal Module, Field Generator, Breen Power Dissipator OR Romulan Science Console, Plasma Infuser x4
I don't bother with torp spreads since HYT3 Hyper-plasmas + GW1 yields much more net damage, especially against ESTF gates and tac-cubes. I've beaten Hive Space Elite more than a few times by cooking the queen with her shields over 80%.
Comments
Hey thanks for the reply,
I've been running your build as a Klingon Engineer using a bird-of-prey variety. The PC Eng. shield buff skills help with survivability, although I sacrifice APA as a result of not being a Tac. Right now, I'm working on adapting the build to the Lifetime Subscriber Chimera ship, but I'm not quite there yet on my Fed Eng.
I guess I didn't consider the use of it in a BoP, especially by an engineer. I tried the B'Rel as an engineer, and it just felt strange. I always thought of BoP's as the ultimate escort ship, but something just felt off. I talked to other people who had been playing KDF for a while,and apparently it's heavily used by Sci characters because of it's universal slots and maneuvarability. There are plenty of dirty little tricks you can use in a B'Rel with it's advanced battle cloak. Staying cloaked while dropping Tricobalt mines, grav wells, warp plasma, etc. All of those things can be used while cloaked as long as it's not firing energy weapons.
I'll put together a BoP build too, that might be kind fun. On my tac, I've settled into my Guramba siege destroyer nicely, and have moved into the Chel'Grett on my engineer. I just keveled up a KDF Sci and am looking forward to using my Kar'Fi with it. The Kar'Fi worked fairly well with my engineer as well.
Indeed, the bird-of-prey and its successor classes are quite fun to play. They have a bunch of little tricks that make some otherwise semi-worthless items and skills very practical across a variety of classes.
Would you share your B'Rel build?
Not much more, add in 2 copies of tac team, and 2 attack patterns, and you have reached the about the limit of what you can add.
I would still like to find some controlled comparisons of DHC's vs. DC's.
DHC's
+ 2x damage (Same DPS due to lower rate of fire)
+ Bonus CritD
- Additional power drain
- 50% rate of fire vs DC's. (lower chance to proc)
i am using your build
atm i use on fleet defiant
front:
1x omega plasma torpedo
3x DHC fleet antiproton
aft:
2x antiproton fleet turret
1xkinetic beam(omega set)
tac. consoles:
4x rare XI antiproton mag
1x very rare XI plasma projectile
atm i have 7k+ encDPS
ill try to switch 1 DHC with hyper plasma torpedo and then will use 3x antiproton mag and 2x plasma projectile for tac. consoles
will check my encDPS then
this build is just for STFs!
You can also see how you like the feel of using 2xDC's/1xDHC/1Torp. When using this, I like the way the cannon fire seems to flow. It seems less "sputtery" and "choppy" and more like a constant stream. (It could just be me)
I would also say haviing the omega plasma torpedo and hyper-[plasma torpedo, it really ups the value of High Yield. Since getting those torpedo's I've switched to using HY2 rather than a second attack pattern.
High Yield1/ High Yield2/ Torp Spread 3/ Scatter Volley 3
Tac. Team1/ Attack Pattern Beta 1/ Rapid Fire 2
On another I went with
High Yield1/ Rapid Fire 1/ Torp Spread 3/ Scatter Volley 3
Tac. Team1/ Attack Pattern Beta 1/ High Yield 3
You'll see the builds are essentially the same focusing on cannon and torpedo AOE attacks, with a smaller focus on standard attacks like HY and rapid fire.
Energy Weapon ship setup
http://i.imgur.com/OES98Js.png
Doffs
http://i.imgur.com/81Z9j8T.png
and
Projectile Weapon ship setup
http://i.imgur.com/gnIQmoR.png
Doffs
http://i.imgur.com/QhMaB27.png
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=Robert01_0
For the projectile boff layout change DEM to Aux2sif
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=GorillaPAdvEscort_2596
I am liking the bonuses of the fleet advanced escort with the 5 tactical consoles and the additional universal ensign slot.
I'm in a small fleet and people tend to want to build it in spurts. (getting frustrating). I'd like to get a fleet patrol escort. I have the Jem, heavy escort carrier, temporal destroyer, defiant, advanced, escort and patrol escort. I still think the patrol escort may be my favorite. Especially with the Maelstrom skin.
The console is in the doff image for the energy weapon build. They do +30 to emitters, +9% plasma energy damage and -60% threat.
The other one is the Zero-Point Energy Conduit and since I am running the Romulan Hyper-Plasma Torpedo Launcher I get the 2 set bonus of Plasma Conductive Circuitry.
Plasma Conductive Circuitry
+7.6% Plasma Damage
+15.2 Starship Electro-Plasma System
So the 5 plasma infusers 2 sci consoles with damage and a 2 piece set bonus means my plasma damage is 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 30% + 9% + 9% + 7.6% for about 175.6% plasma damage minus the usual stacking reductions
I will explain this, as there is the stereotypical newb (which has gotten to be a running joke among experienced escort flyers) who insists on putting a "beam array" in the rear, "so I can do more damage when I turn", or to a lesser extent, a dual beam bank in front.
I wanted to clarify to said newb that the single beam on the back has nothing todo with dps. It started out as a way for the more creative and/or sci pilots to deliver one of the 4 TSSIII debuffs such as Target SubSystem Shields III. Now weather or not it is effective in STFs I can only say that if the Tac cube gets hit with TSSWIII everybody will have an easier time staying alive.
I have no console in the doff slot. I was hovering over the console at the same time when I took the image.
http://deepspacealliance.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/game-mechanics-revealed-dual-cannons-vs.html
damn u got a lot of bridge officers, how much did that cost ya
Not that much. I more or less acquired them over time. Sad thing is I still don't have enough slots for what I need.
You need to add a disclaimer that DC's are inferior due to power drain mechanics any time you mistakenly advocate their use.
Even if you refuse to wrap your head around the reality of the weapon you owe it to the new players who look to you for guidance to at least advise them to examine the issue for themselves.
Otherwise the thread title should be "How to spec your Escort so you like the firing animation."
/bluntess 0
Sorry it was harsh, but you are inviting new players coming to you for guidance so the bar is high for accurate information.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
Also in regards to the second part of the "quote",that was a discussion response prior to the DC vs DHC data comparison being brought to light on 2/8/13.
DC recommendations in the OP were removed when there was finally some scientific evidence brought forward in the DC vs DHC debate proving that DHC's provided more damage. While I am happy to do that, I will not go back and change every post, but I will note updates as they come about as I did in post #113. The biggest thing that came forward, I believe in that was that the higher firing rate of the DC's does not double the chance of a proc as widely believed. As there was nothing aside from the data link that I had found (and eventually posted), there was no way for anyone to have KNOWN that DHC's had a higher damage output. Not to mention, the damage difference is quite small, however it is there, so it must be mentioned.
Just wondering....... 4 torp vs 4 dhc what is the dmg difference..
im a tac officer in a mirror advance escort. but i guess it wouldn't make a difference as long as im running escort.
cause if torps have higher dps than cannons or vice versa wouldn't it be obvious to go full torp/dhc build for the highest dps instead of mixing it????
thx in advance for the clarification.:)
Weapon flavor procs are per cycle. DEM and Tet Glider are per shot. Those two benefit from higher shot rate. It is known. Bort said it but it's been archived. This is basic stuff. It is known.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
If the player's ship uses the Omega Set Tetryon Glider, DC's will drain shields twice as fast over DHC's since that mechanic is hit-count-based. Otherwise, DHC's will out-damage DC's because of the extra 10% critical severity.
BTW, in light of the most recent Romulan weapons and gear, plasma now has the highest DPS output at this current patch due to the new Embassy plasma-infused science consoles. The Hyperplasma launcher can drop multiple shield-ignoring plasma fire stacks on enemy targets. The new Experimental beam array is also quite nasty -- using its hyperflux firing mode with FoMM and AP-Beta3, I watched an ESTF Negh'var and Cubes literally melt in seconds.
This is the Breen warpship build that I presently run in ESTF's and Fleet actions:
Ship Gear: Full Borg Space Set
-Weapons-
Fore = 2 Plasma DHC's + 1 Romulan Experimental Beam Array + 1 Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo Launcher
Aft = 3 Plasma Turrets + 1 Kinetic Cutting Beam
Devices = Red Matter Capacitor, Subspace Field Modulator
Consoles: Tachyokinetic Converter, Rule 62 Multipurpose Combat Console, Borg Assimilated Universal Module, Field Generator, Breen Power Dissipator OR Romulan Science Console, Plasma Infuser x4
BOFFS:
Ensign Univ: BO1
Commander Tac: TT1, CSV1, HYT3, AP-Beta3
Lt.Tac: TT1, CSV1
Lt.Eng: EPtS1, EPtS2
Lt.CmdrSci: HE1, ST1, GW1
DOFSS: 3 Attack Pattern Conn-doffs, 2 Projectile Weapon Officers
I don't bother with torp spreads since HYT3 Hyper-plasmas + GW1 yields much more net damage, especially against ESTF gates and tac-cubes. I've beaten Hive Space Elite more than a few times by cooking the queen with her shields over 80%.